View Full Version : Blackwater Shootout 2004
Smokin Joe
08-02-2004, 09:04
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/analysis1.html
Did you go this year TR?
Glad to see the Military is (finally) doing testing on the LeMas ammo. Congrats Stan.
The Reaper
08-02-2004, 09:11
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/analysis1.html
Did you go this year TR?
Glad to see the Military is (finally) doing testing on the LeMas ammo. Congrats Stan.
Yep.
Thanks for the link.
TR
rubberneck
08-02-2004, 10:30
Originally posted by The Reaper
Yep.
Thanks for the link.
TR
What is your opinion on the XM-8? It seems to have a lot of detractors.
The Reaper
08-02-2004, 10:44
Originally posted by rubberneck
What is your opinion on the XM-8? It seems to have a lot of detractors.
I believe I was quoted in that section of the article.
Interesting residue from the OICW program, answers an unasked question. Did someone say we need a new 5.56 carbine?
May, or may not be better than the H&K M-4 with the XM-8 closed gas system.
With the 12.5" barrel, look reduced accuracy and a max effective range of about 50m. with the M855, due to lack of frag from the bullet at low velocity.
I am not a fan.
TR
swatsurgeon
08-02-2004, 11:33
TR,
have you seen the new H&K M4? 26,000 rounds, no cleaning, perfect reliability......the xm8 is a different animal....thoughts?
The Reaper
08-02-2004, 14:17
Originally posted by swatsurgeon
TR,
have you seen the new H&K M4? 26,000 rounds, no cleaning, perfect reliability......the xm8 is a different animal....thoughts?
Played with both, haven't shot them.
The AMU requested T&E weapons from H&K, who IIRC, declined to provide them as of February.
I think the H&K M-4, as I stated has a lot of potential. That, when combined with the H&K mags, remove the majority of the problem areas from the weapon.
I can see the Army possibly upgrading to the H&K uppers and mags.
HTH.
TR
rubberneck
08-02-2004, 14:25
This is what is really confusing about this whole subject. Why would H&K offer two different products for the same market? I understand some of the politics involved but from a business standpoint it is just plain old stupid. Spend all that time and money working on perfecting the XM-8 and then you undercut that project with an improved version of the M-4, which is what most end users seem to prefer. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
The Reaper
08-02-2004, 14:28
Originally posted by rubberneck
This is what is really confusing about this whole subject. Why would H&K offer two different products for the same market? I understand some of the politics involved but from a business standpoint it is just plain old stupid. Spend all that time and money working on perfecting the XM-8 and then you undercut that project with an improved version of the M-4, which is what most end users seem to prefer. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
Because the XM-8 still has an X in it.
The M-4 gas system, IIRC, is lifted directly from the XM-8.
Rather than lose a very large contract, they would prefer a somewhat smaller, but still profitable venture to the position of getting nothing.
TR
rubberneck
08-02-2004, 14:46
My limited understanding of the situation was that the XM_8 was all but a lay up for H&K. I guess I was wrong. I remember reading something to the effect that they wanted to salvage something from the OCIW boondogle and that the XM-8 was it.
Smokin Joe
08-02-2004, 14:47
TR,
Are the XM-8 ergonomics as uncomfortable as the UMPs?
The Reaper
08-02-2004, 14:53
Originally posted by rubberneck
My limited understanding of the situation was that the XM_8 was all but a lay up for H&K. I guess I was wrong. I remember reading something to the effect that they wanted to salvage something from the OCIW boondogle and that the XM-8 was it.
Nobody has asked the shooter's opinions yet, IIRC. If they had, it wouldn't be fielded with anything less than a 16" barrel.
Military-Industrial complex, anyone?
There is a new H&K plant in Colombus, GA. Wonder why?
TR
I noticed a while back that H&K had some info about their M4 program on their website. Bet then when all the hullaballoo started with the XM8 they took the HK M4 info off of the website.
You wont come up with too much nowadays if you do a search on the HK M4. I wonder what kind of comments would come from shooters if they had a weapon with the HK upper (with the gas piston system and SIR type rails) for the M4 chambered in the 6.8mm?
Originally posted by NG_M4_Shooter
I noticed a while back that H&K had some info about their M4 program on their website. Bet then when all the hullaballoo started with the XM8 they took the HK M4 info off of the website.
You wont come up with too much nowadays if you do a search on the HK M4. I wonder what kind of comments would come from shooters if they had a weapon with the HK upper (with the gas piston system and SIR type rails) for the M4 chambered in the 6.8mm?
You won't find much on the H&K "M4" Program, Because Colt is Suing several Manufacturers Including H&K & Bushmaster for using the Name"M4"
Colt Lawsuit (http://www.colt.com/mil/news.asp)
The Reaper
08-02-2004, 16:18
Originally posted by NG_M4_Shooter
I noticed a while back that H&K had some info about their M4 program on their website. Bet then when all the hullaballoo started with the XM8 they took the HK M4 info off of the website.
You wont come up with too much nowadays if you do a search on the HK M4. I wonder what kind of comments would come from shooters if they had a weapon with the HK upper (with the gas piston system and SIR type rails) for the M4 chambered in the 6.8mm?
Why would you want it in 6.8?
Do you have any experience with the round?
TR
no specific reason. I was thinking aloud aqbout what others might say about such a weapon. There is quite a bit of chatter lately RE: the 6.8mm.
I dont know enough about the ballistic minutae to say whether it would be superior to 5.56mm.
NousDefionsDoc
08-02-2004, 18:51
What do the 6.8, .45 GAP, and Sofia's virginity all have in common?
Nobody cares.:D
Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics. 6.8 is a logistical nightmare looking for a place to happen. Speaking of which, whatever happened to the 10MM?
Smokin Joe
08-02-2004, 19:32
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
.... Speaking of which, whatever happened to the 10MM?
*Hijack alert*
Ah the FBI wonder bullet.
Our last Homicide (should be justified we will see what the jury says...I will share more when I can). The shooter used a Kimber 10mm 3 rnds C.O.M. with Federal Hydro Shoks dropped a 6-1 220lbs charging lunatic in his tracks. Good round IMHO great Ballistics.
*End Thread Hijack*
The Reaper
08-02-2004, 20:13
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
whatever happened to the 10MM?
It was neutered by gender benders and weaklings into the 10mm (-P) and it became a .40 S&W too long to fit into a medium frame pistol.
My 10mm launches a 135 gr, CorBon at an average 1586fps, chronoed by me.
Hard to find hot loads for it now, though.
TR
swatsurgeon
08-03-2004, 06:02
I've spoken with a few people that have tried/tested the round. The ballistic profile of a 7.62 with the ease of shooting a 5.56....longer accurate range, quick on target after firing (less recoil than a .308) terninal ballistics that show both a larger permanent and temporary cavity with more associated soft tissue destruction.....this is the (+) to this round.
Take a look at the new 4.66 round by H&K. For a "pistol", it has a devistating ballistic profile but can be shouldered and used long distance (~200m....for a 'pistol')
NousDefionsDoc
08-03-2004, 07:43
If I can't beg, borrow, steal, take it off bodies or pick it up off the ground in the target country, I'm not carrying it. But then that's just me.
The Reaper
08-03-2004, 07:54
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
If I can't beg, borrow, steal, take it off bodies or pick it up off the ground in the target country, I'm not carrying it. But then that's just me.
Exactly.
You also leave a very distinctive trail for those who do not want SOF running around in their backyard.
The Barrett 6.8s are the only ones I have fired, and they have not exactly run flawlessly.
No thanks, for now. Probably make a decent LE round, though.
TR
G-11 will be adopted. Oh, I thought this was the humor section, my bad:)
P