View Full Version : Car bomb in NYC
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/times-square-cleared-as-bomb-found-in-parked-suv/19461588?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww .aolnews.com%2Fnation%2Farticle%2Ftimes-square-cleared-as-bomb-found-in-parked-suv%2F19461588
NEW YORK (May 2) - Police found an "amateurish" but potentially powerful bomb that apparently began to detonate but did not explode in a smoking sport utility vehicle in Times Square, authorities said Sunday.
Thousands of tourists were cleared from the streets for 10 hours after two vendors alerted police to the suspicious vehicle, which contained three propane tanks, fireworks, two filled 5-gallon gasoline containers, and two clocks with batteries, electrical wire and other components, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said.
"We avoided what we could have been a very deadly event," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. "It certainly could have exploded and had a pretty big fire and a decent amount of explosive impact."
The bomb appeared to be starting to detonate but malfunctioned, top police spokesman Paul Browne said Sunday.
Firefighters who arrived shortly after the first call heard a popping sound, said Fire Commissioner Sal Cassano, who described the sound as not quite an explosion.
"I think the intent was to cause a significant ball of fire," Kelly said.
No suspects were in custody, though Kelly said a surveillance video showed the car driving west on 45th Street before it parked between Seventh and Eighth avenues. Police were looking for more video from office buildings that weren't open at the time.
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said on NBC's "Meet the Press" that officials are treating the incident as a potential terrorist attack though it's too soon to tell who's responsible. Napolitano added that while investigators have no suspects, they have recovered forensic evidence, including fingerprints from the vehicle.
The mayor said it's not surprising the city is a frequent target of terrorism. "These things invariably ... come back to New York," Bloomberg said.
A T-shirt vendor and a handbag vendor alerted police at about 6:30 p.m, the height of dinner hour before theatergoers head to Saturday night shows.
Smoke was coming from the back of the dark-colored Pathfinder, its hazard lights were on and "it was just sitting there," said Rallis Gialaboukis, 37, another vendor who has hawked his wares for 20 years across the street.
Duane Jackson, a 58-year-old handbag vendor from Buchanan, N.Y., said he noticed the car at around 6:30 p.m. and wondered who had left it there.
"That was my first thought: Who sat this car here?" Jackson said Sunday.
Jackson said he looked in the car and saw keys in the ignition with 19 or 20 keys on a ring.
He said he alerted a passing mounted police officer.
"That's when the smoke started coming out and then we heard the little pop pop pop like firecrackers going out and that's when everybody scattered and ran back," he said.
"Now that I saw the propane tanks and the gasoline, what if that would have ignited?" Jackson said. "I'm less than 8 feet away from the car. We dodged a bullet here."
He didn't think the car had been there for more than 10 or 15 minutes.
A white robotic police arm broke windows of the SUV to remove any explosive materials. A Connecticut license plate on the vehicle did not match up, Bloomberg said. Police interviewed the Connecticut car owner, who told them he had sent the plates to a nearby junkyard, Bloomberg said.
The SUV was towed early Sunday to a forensic lab in Queens, where it was being "thoroughly checked for prints, hairs and fibers," Browne said Sunday. Napolitano said fingerprints had been recovered from the vehicle.
Heavily armed police and emergency vehicles shut down the city's busiest streets, choked with taxis and people on one of the first summer-like days of the year. Times Square lies about four traffic-choked miles north of where terrorists bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, then laid waste to it on Sept. 11, 2001.
The car was parked on one of the prime blocks for Broadway shows, with seven theaters housing such big shows as "The Lion King" and "Billy Elliot."
The curtain at "God of Carnage" and "Red" opened a half-hour later than usual, but the shows were not canceled, said spokesman Adrian Bryan-Brown.
Katy Neubauer, 46, and Becca Saunders, 39, of Milwaukee, were shopping for souvenirs two blocks south of the SUV when they saw panicked crowds.
"It was a mass of people running away from the scene," Neubauer said.
Said Saunders: "There were too many people, too many cops. I've never seen anything like it."
Bloomberg left early from the White House correspondent's dinner Saturday night. President Barack Obama, who attended the annual gala, praised the quick response by the New York Police Department, White House spokesman Nick Shapiro said.
He has also directed his homeland security and counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan, to advise New York officials that the federal government is prepared to provide support.
Brennan and others will keep Obama up to date on the investigation, Shapiro said.
The FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force in New York responded along with the NYPD, said agent Richard Kolko.
The latest terror threat in New York came last fall when air shuttle driver Najibullah Zazi admitted to a foiled homemade bomb plot aimed at the city subway system.
The theater district in London was the target of a propane bomb attack in 2007. No one was injured when police discovered two Mercedes loaded with nails packed around canisters of propane and gasoline.
Officials said the device found Saturday was crudely constructed, but Islamic militants have used propane and compressed gas for years to enhance the force of explosives. Those instances include the 1983 suicide attack on the U.S. Marines barracks at the Beirut airport that killed 241 U.S. service members, and the 2007 attack on the international airport in Glasgow, Scotland.
In 2007, the U.S. military announced that an al-Qaida front group was using propane to rig car bombs in Iraq.
Times Square has been a frequent target, if not for potential terrorists, then for rabble-rousers.
In December, a parked van without license plates led police to block off part of the area for about two hours. A police robot examined the vehicle, and clothes, racks and scarves were found inside.
In March 2008, a hooded bicyclist hurled an explosive device at a military recruiting center, producing a flash, smoke and full-scale emergency response. No suspect was ever identified.
Police have spent years trying to crack down on street hustlers and peddlers preying on tourists. But there have been two major gunfights in recent months. A street hustler armed with a machine pistol exchanged shots in December, shattering a Broadway theater ticket window, before police fatally shot him.
Four shootings and more than 50 arrests on a mile-long stretch of Manhattan last month around Times Square prompted the mayor to call the mayhem "wilding."
Contributing to this report were AP Washington bureau chief Ron Fournier, AP Radio correspondent Julie Walker in New York and Associated Press writers Eileen Sullivan and Pete Yost in Washington, Michael Kuchwara in New York and Robert H. Reid in Kabul.
Filed under: Nation, Top Stories
Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/02/official-times-square-incident-similar-to-glasgow-bombing/?hpt=T1
As authorities conduct their investigation into a car bomb found in Times Square, a federal law enforcement official said the incident was most similar to the events leading up to the 2007 bombing at the airport in Glasgow.
In June 2007, authorities discovered two explosives-filled Mercedes sedans in central London.
One of the cars was parked outside a packed nightclub near Piccadilly Circus and the other was parked just off Trafalgar Square. Like Times Square, both locations are major tourist spots in London.
An ambulance crew notified police about the first car after they saw smoke coming from it. The second car was towed for a parking offense but drew suspicion because it smelled of gasoline.
Officials later said both cars cars were filled with fuel, gas canisters and nails. Police managed to defuse them.
The following day, with attention still focused on the averted attacks in the capital, a Jeep sped through the barriers outside Glasgow International Airport and slammed head-on into the terminal.
The Jeep, filled with propane gas, burst into flames and created a fireball. The driver and passenger jumped out of the car.
The driver, Kafeel Ahmed, set himself on fire and later died in the hospital; the passenger was identified as Bilal Abdulla, an Iraqi doctor who had been practicing medicine in Scotland.
Later that day, police arrested Mohammed Asha as he was driving with his wife on a highway in Cheshire, England. Police said Asha, a doctor of Palestinian descent who grew up in Jordan, conspired with Abdulla to carry out the explosions, but the jury did not agree.
Based on other evidence collected in the investigation, police believe the London bombs were to have been the first in a series of similar attacks. They said it was only luck that prevented the London bombs from going off.
In December 2008, a London jury found Abdulla guilty of conspiracy to murder and conspiring to cause explosions. In a split verdict, the jury acquitted Asha.
A Washington Post Article about the 2007 London Car Bombs:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/29/AR2007062900160.html
Green Light
05-02-2010, 09:35
Making a car bomb isn't as easy as most think. It takes some expertise. The problem is that there are those within the US already who are willing to try.
There are those (even some 18Cs) who will say stupid things like "P=plenty" and "It takes (fill in the blank) wraps of det cord to (fill in the blank)". Anyone who knows me knows that I despise either of those phrases - any jackass can do that. It takes a professional with proper training and following proper techniques to make them work as advertised.
Unless a terrorist is properly schooled in explosive charges, we're relatively safe. We are fortunate that the perps in this case were as poorly trained as the incident last night along with the last string of attempted attacks in London and Glasgow.
If there're knuckleheads in the US who are thinking of setting off mass casualty producing devices, they will eventually link up with someone who can point them in the right direction. Swift action is required here.
Utah Bob
05-02-2010, 14:55
Story is here (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hvkQCyOOEuuk_Hdfq1j5lzGCEgXQD9FESCK80)
Pakistani Taliban claims NYC car bomb
By RYAN LUCAS (AP) – 2 hours ago
CAIRO — The Pakistani Taliban claimed responsibility in a video released Sunday for the attempted car bomb attack in Times Square in New York City.
In the 1 minute, 11 second video allegedly released by the Pakistani Taliban, the group says the attack is revenge for the death of its leader, Baitullah Mehsud, and the recent slayings of the top leaders of al-Qaida in Iraq — Abu Omar al-Baghdadi and Abu Ayyub al-Masri — who were killed by U.S. and Iraqi troops last month north of Baghdad.
An unidentified speaker on the tape, uncovered by the U.S-based SITE monitoring group, also says the attack comes in response to American "interference and terrorism in Muslim Countries, especially in Pakistan."
The claim could not be immediately confirmed. The tape makes no specific reference to the attack; it does not mention that it was a car bomb or that it took place in New York City.
A text in gold letters on a black background at the start of the video congratulates Muslims for the "jaw-breaking blow to Satan's USA." As the speaker recites the message, images of the slain militants referred to flash across the screen. English subtitles are provided at the bottom of the screen.
The video was uncovered Sunday by SITE, which monitors militant websites and has been accurate with such militant claims in the past.
The Pakistani Taliban is one of Pakistan's largest and deadliest militant groups. It has strong links to al-Qaida and is based in the northwest close to the Afghan border. The group has carried out scores of bloody attacks inside Pakistan in recent years, mostly against Pakistani targets, but it has made no secret of its hatred toward the United States.
If the claim of responsibility is genuine, it would be the first time the group has struck outside of South Asia.
Last year, its then commander, Baitullah Mehsud, vowed to "amaze everyone in the world" with an attack on Washington or even the White House. But Mehsud also reportedly said his men were behind a mass shooting in March 2009 at the American Civic Association in Binghamton in April 2009. That claim turned out to be false.
incarcerated
05-02-2010, 15:09
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/05/02/2010-05-02_cops_possible_suspects_in_times_square_car_bomb _include_group_behind_south_park_.html
Police eyeing link to South Park in Times Square car bomb
By Alison Gendar, Rocco Parascandola and Helen Kennedy
DAILY NEWS WRITERS
Originally Published:Sunday, May 2nd 2010, 1:46 PM
Police hunting the man who parked a crude but powerful car bomb in Times Square Saturday night are looking into a possible link to a South Park cartoon lampooning censorship about Mohammed.
No link has been established, but threats against the Comedy Central animators were made by a New York Islamist Web site last month and police are aggressively looking for connections, sources told the Daily News.
The dark-colored Nissan SUV, its engine running and hazard lights flashing, was parked on W. 45th St. right next to the Broadway headquarters of Viacom, which owns Comedy Central....
The word terrorist/terrorism was used not less than five times...
...get it right people: we are dealing with "man caused disasters" not terrorism.
I also saw the term "Islamic militants"... come on folks, stay on point.
They are petty criminals, lets not bring religion into it.
It's a video from a NYC Channel
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/05/02/local_nyc_channel_reports_failed_bomb_at_times_squ are_was_a_diversion_for_massive_explosion.html
The weekend has been interesting from start to finish.
When I left they caught someone with cyanide in the subway....a possible attempted suicide and I come home to this.
AngelsSix
05-02-2010, 18:57
Jesus, white guy couldn't even get a simple car bomb right! Who the hell is vetting these guys for AQ? They need to be fired!:D:munchin
Utah Bob
05-02-2010, 22:53
From what the Police Commissioner had to say about the device it appears that the guy was pretty explosives challenged.
Pakistani Taliban claims NYC car bomb
I'm suspicious of organizations or spokesmen who suddenly claim responsibility for these acts. Question that begs to be answered is which organization would benefit from claiming responsibility, not especially from doing the deed. Believing this was Taliban (with the ameturish ability of the builder) may lead us to the wrong conclusions. The South Park connection sounds more accurate. Wannabe's abound.
The police and F.B.I. investigators have tracked down the owner of the 1993 Nissan Pathfinder that contained the makings of a crude car bomb discovered in Times Square over the weekend, but he is not considered a suspect, the police said on Monday.
“We’ve identified and spoken to the registered owner,” said Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman, who stressed that the police had not yet identified a suspect or a motive. Nonetheless, the resolution of the vehicle’s provenance is a significant advancement in the 38-hour-old investigation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/nyregion/04bomb.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
SkiBumCFO
05-03-2010, 15:04
Green light - you are absolutely correct it. Some real idiots set this thing up. Which I am happy about as my pregnant daughter lives about two blocks from the site. Though I must admit i am a Charlie that still uses the saying "P=Plenty" but only as a joke. I still remember us all using it as a joke in those lovely old classrooms on smoke bomb hill.
6.8SPC_DUMP
05-03-2010, 15:24
Video of the “white male in his 40's who sent thousands into a panic": Link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/nyc-times-square-car-bomber-surveillance-video-10536898?tab=9482931§ion=4765066).
Has anyone seen footage of the van being parked and exited?
The South Park connection sounds more accurate. Wannabe's abound.
What SP connection?
Should a 20 year old white-boy be the focus of attention, for saying that SP creators will probably be killed by muslims for depicting mohammad, on a website with 12 members?
Who tipped off the Comedy Central network to this site?
Did any of the 200K Pakistani residents in the US write something similar?
(the original posting of 300K was wrong)
Video of the “white male in his 40's who sent thousands into a panic": Link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/nyc-times-square-car-bomber-surveillance-video-10536898?tab=9482931§ion=4765066).
What SP connection?
My God man...they showed Muhammad in a bear suit. Do we have to connect the dots for you????:p
Green light - you are absolutely correct it. Some real idiots set this thing up. Which I am happy about as my pregnant daughter lives about two blocks from the site. Though I must admit i am a Charlie that still uses the saying "P=Plenty" but only as a joke. I still remember us all using it as a joke in those lovely old classrooms on smoke bomb hill.
What??? P=Plenty was a joke? No wonder my Team Daddy got all pissed off when I said I needed a crate of C-4 to blow that one train rail. Oh well...back to my one-time pads and tri-graph. Dit-Dah.
Video of the “white male in his 40's who sent thousands into a panic": Link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/nyc-times-square-car-bomber-surveillance-video-10536898?tab=9482931§ion=4765066).
Has anyone seen footage of the van being parked and exited? ......
Why am I disapointed when I watch the news. Talk - Talk - Talk - Talk - and a short portion of a larger clip.
Where is the SUV in relation to the cam? Is it the one in the field of view? If it's not - where is the pointer "SUV over this way"? Where did the man come from? There is a lot of street in the picture. Why does the clip start only a few steps from where he stops?
Sigh...............
Green Light
05-03-2010, 16:11
What??? P=Plenty was a joke? No wonder my Team Daddy got all pissed off when I said I needed a crate of C-4 to blow that one train rail. Oh well...back to my one-time pads and tri-graph. Dit-Dah.
Hey! Blow the rail, crater the rail bed, and send the train into the next dorf!
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's see . . . P + L = Z :D
(You can tell an ex-commo man - he can't remember the antenna formulas but he can't forget the trigraph) :lifter
Maybe now discussions of "good Taliban" and "bad Taliban" will end! If they find this guy ASAP, maybe they can pick up some info about Mehsud.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/03/officials-reportedly-foreign-plot-times-square-car-bomb/
FOXNews.com
- May 03, 2010
American Who Recently Visited Pakistan Eyed in Times Square Bomb Plot
The person is a naturalized American citizen who was in Pakistan for several months and returned to the United States recently, investigative sources told Fox News
Federal authorities have identified a person of interest in Saturday night's Times Square bomb attempt -- a naturalized American citizen who was in Pakistan for several months and returned to the United States recently, investigative sources told Fox News.
The latest developments seem to support investigators' suspicions that there was a foreign connection behind the failed car bomb attempt in New York City, senior Obama administration officials told Fox News, shedding light on the growing body of evidence.
Sources say that evidence includes international phone calls made by the person of interest, who has not been identified publicly. The Associated Press identified the person as a man of Pakistani descent, citing unnamed law enforcement sources.
Police also have interviewed the registered owner of the bomb-laden sports-utility vehicle. They say he is not a suspect, but he recently sold the dark-colored 1993 Nissan Pathfinder on Craigslist to another individual, whom the Associated Press reports was the Pakistani-American.
The bomb scare forced the evacuation of Times Square on a busy Saturday night, as police used a robot to break into the smoking SUV and diffuse the makeshift explosive, which was made from everyday items, such as propane tanks and firecrackers.
One Obama administration official, while acknowledging the crudeness of the bomb, cautioned, "Do not necessarily assume that the plot behind it was not sophisticated."
The SUV's vehicle identification number had been removed from Pathfinder's dashboard, but it was stamped on the engine and axle, and investigators used it to find the owner of record. CBS News reports that owner told investigators he recently sold the vehicle for $1,300 to someone who looked "Middle Eastern" or "Hispanic." The buyer reportedly paid in $100 bills.
Sources told Fox News that investigators are focusing on the similarities between the failed attack in New York City and both the 2007 attack on Glasgow's airport in Scotland and the attempted bombing of a London nightclub the same year. Propane gas and gasoline were used in all three incidents.
In New York, police and FBI were examining hundreds of hours of video from around the area and wanted to speak with a man in his 40s who was videotaped shedding his shirt near the Pathfinder.
The video shows the man slipping down Shubert Alley and taking off his shirt, revealing another underneath. In the same clip, looks back in the direction of the smoking vehicle and puts the first shirt in a bag.
They traveled to Pennsylvania for video shot by a tourist of a different person, and were evaluating the tape and determining whether to make it public.
On Monday, the White House for the first time clearly defined the attempted attack as an act of terrorism, without saying whether it was the work of a foreign or domestic plot.
"I think anybody that has the type of material that they had in a car in Times Square, I would say that that was intended to terrorize. Absolutely," White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said when asked by Fox News how the White House would categorize the incident. "And I would say that whoever did that would be categorized as a terrorist. Yes."
Obama administration officials previously stopped short of declaring the incident terrorism.
New York Gov. David Paterson immediately called the attempted attack an "act of terrorism" after police were alerted to the bomb and cleared out Times Square Saturday night. But Attorney General Eric Holder on Monday said it was too early to officially designate the incident as terrorism.
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, in several interviews since Sunday, has by turns described the incident as a potential or likely terrorist act, though she said investigators need to find out more about the origin of the plot.
"It certainly is something that I would not rule out," she told Fox News on Monday morning.
A Pakistani Taliban group released a videotape that appeared to claim responsibility for the incident, but New York City officials said they had no evidence to support that.
Fox News' Major Garrett, Catherine Herridge and Mike Levine and the Associated Press contributed to this report.
Utah Bob
05-03-2010, 20:51
Green light - you are absolutely correct it. Some real idiots set this thing up. Which I am happy about as my pregnant daughter lives about two blocks from the site. Though I must admit i am a Charlie that still uses the saying "P=Plenty" but only as a joke. I still remember us all using it as a joke in those lovely old classrooms on smoke bomb hill.
Ahh...Sweet memories of the time my team ran a demo class at Devens. After a well crafted class on steel cutting charges everyone drew their materials. As I watched the men staggering downrange loaded down with C4, tnt, etc, toward the APC, train tracks, junked Pontiac and defused AF bombs, I said to myself, "This will be interesting"
I was right. And not in a good way.
ArmyStrong
05-03-2010, 23:11
Source:http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/04/new.york.car.bomb/?hpt=T1
New York (CNN) -- An arrest has been made in a failed attempt to set off a car bomb in New York's Times Square over the weekend, a law enforcement official told CNN early Tuesday.
The identity of the suspect was not immediately known.
The arrest took place at JFK Airport in New York, while the suspect was trying to board a plane to go overseas. It's destination was not immediately known, a federal law enforcement official said.
Monday evening, another law enforcement official said the buyer of a sport-utility vehicle used in the bomb attempt is considered a potential suspect in the case.
The buyer of the Nissan Pathfinder is a naturalized U.S. citizen from Pakistan, and investigators are looking at more than one person in connection with the unsuccessful bombing, the source said.
The report came as CNN learned that the Joint Terrorism Task Force investigating the bombing attempt is considering the possibility that the attempt involved more than just a "lone wolf." The identity of the person under scrutiny was not known, however.
incarcerated
05-03-2010, 23:40
Video of the “white male in his 40's who sent thousands into a panic": Link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/nyc-times-square-car-bomber-surveillance-video-10536898?tab=9482931§ion=4765066).
Oh yeah…I saw that guy somewhere else…where was it…?
http://www.daylife.com/photo/00rD0hn0ZY73x?q=kevin+daveron
http://www.daylife.com/photo/03LL95lbFs4uk?q=kevin+daveron
http://gulfnews.com/gntv/news/the-murder-of-mahmoud-al-mabhouh-1.583880
incarcerated
05-04-2010, 00:44
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/04/AR2010050400192.html?hpid=topnews
....The suspect, Faisal Shahzad, a 30-year-old U.S. citizen from Pakistan, allegedly purchased the sport utility vehicle that authorities found packed with explosives in New York on Saturday night.
Authorities became aware of his identity Monday afternoon. He was arrested just after 11 p.m. by Customs and Border Protection agents at JFK International Airport. Shahzad's flight to Dubai had left the gate and was headed toward the runway when authorities discovered that he was on board and wanted. He was removed from the plane and taken into custody, an official said....
Why am I disapointed when I watch the news. Talk - Talk - Talk - Talk - and a short portion of a larger clip.
Where is the SUV in relation to the cam? Is it the one in the field of view? If it's not - where is the pointer "SUV over this way"? Where did the man come from? There is a lot of street in the picture. Why does the clip start only a few steps from where he stops?
Sigh...............
You might get two minutes of News in a thirty minute segment. Did I hear Bloomberg say. The bomber was probably someone angry over the Health Care Bill.
Should have allowed the plane to take off then divert it to Guantanamo.
Streck-Fu
05-04-2010, 09:09
You might get two minutes of News in a thirty minute segment. Did I hear Bloomberg say. The bomber was probably someone angry over the Health Care Bill.
I saw that when browsing the news online. I wanted to be surprised by his statement but couldn't muster it....LINK (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-baker/2010/05/03/cbs-features-ny-mayor-bloomberg-speculating-bomber-was-mad-about-obamac)
Utah Bob
05-04-2010, 09:33
Right after getting his citizenship, he returned to Pak for 8 months.
I just heard that they have arrested someone in Karachi in connection with the case.
Joe Lieberman said yesterday he disagreed with Holder's assessment that it wasn't an external terrorist threat.
A couple of thoughts:
A comment for Leno to use - Hey, this guy who left the smoking SUV in Times Square, Faisal Shahzad, has only been a citizen for a year and now can't even make a decent IED. If that's what happens to anyone exposed to the American education system, we've been going about this terrorist thing all wrong by trying to keep 'em out...I say let's make 'em all citizens and put them in school. :p
Something to ponder for the Tom Clancy fans -
Guy* comes to the USA but has to leave his family back in whoosis-stan.
Works hard, becomes a citizen, and wants to bring his family over - but the 'boys' back home won't let him and keep them hostage.
Guy is told to do the bomb thing or his family goes the way of a Washington Irving Halloween tale.
What to do?
Guy doesn't want to hurt anybody but knows he has to do the bomb thing or his family's fertilizer for the poppy fields.
Guy makes a bomb which intentionally fizzles, leaves beaucoup evidence and plays for the security cameras he knows are there, and leaves a trail even the DHS can follow so that he's caught and placed in a safe prison, his family remains safe because he 'attempted' the bomb thing and they can't be responsible for him being a dumba$$, and he's willing to tell us everything he knows about the 'boys' who held his family which leads to other ops.
Far fetched...maybe...but not for a Clancy novel. ;)
Or...maybe he's just another of the many nuts running around and looking for a reason to extoll their sponsor's magnaminoous nature by randomly killing anyone who happens by...:mad:
Anyway...and so it goes...
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
* Not to be confused with a certain QP who frequents this forum.
Something to ponder for the Tom Clancy fans -
Interesting point, Richard. Now make him an Israeli-Arab.
Bimbo Sawyer just had a Breaking News Story on the perp.
Had that sad blond look when she said ".....Father of two......"
Anybody seeing where this is going?
He's becoming the victim.
Utah Bob
05-04-2010, 12:02
Bimbo Sawyer just had a Breaking News Story on the perp.
Had that sad blond look when she said ".....Father of two......"
Anybody seeing where this is going?
He's becoming the victim.
Her pained and sympathetic expressions drive me nuts!!:mad:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/02/official-times-square-incident-similar-to-glasgow-bombing/?hpt=T1
As authorities conduct their investigation into a car bomb found in Times Square, a federal law enforcement official said the incident was most similar to the events leading up to the 2007 bombing at the airport in Glasgow.
...
Every time I think about that Glasgow bombing, I remember that one of the civilians who responded kicked that flaming terrorist in the nuts so hard he broke his own foot.
Every time I think about that Glasgow bombing, I remember that one of the civilians who responded kicked that flaming terrorist in the nuts so hard he broke his own foot.
It's a Scots thing! :D
Richard (Clans Hay and Murray)
robert2854
05-04-2010, 15:40
BEING AN OLD DEMO MAN(12B40S ) I can't imagine anyone with any knowledge of explosives expecting this to be detonated and causing real damage. It seems as though the idiot was also alarm clock challanged. Maybe despite everything, we are extremely lucky and very fortunate the vender was alert and the NYPD and NYFD were on the ball. KILL A COMMIE FOR MOMMIE
Ret10Echo
05-04-2010, 19:37
...But your 4-year old can't get on there.... :mad:
Security slip let suspect on plane, near takeoff
By EILEEN SULLIVAN and MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writers Eileen Sullivan And Matt Apuzzo, Associated Press Writers
1 hr 35 mins ago
.WASHINGTON – The no-fly list failed to keep the Times Square suspect off the plane. Faisal Shahzad had boarded a jetliner bound for the United Arab Emirates Monday night before federal authorities pulled him back.
The night's events, gradually coming to light, underscored the flaws in the nation's aviation security system, which despite its technologies, lists and information sharing, often comes down to someone making a right call.
As federal agents closed in, Faisal Shahzad was aboard Emirates Flight 202. He reserved a ticket on the way to John F. Kennedy International Airport, paid cash on arrival and walked through security without being stopped. By the time Customs and Border Protection officials spotted Shahzad's name on the passenger list and recognized him as the bombing suspect they were looking for, he was in his seat and the plane was preparing to leave the gate.
But it didn't. At the last minute, the pilot was notified, the jetliner's door was opened and Shahzad was taken into custody.
After authorities pulled Shahzad off the plane, he admitted he was behind the crude Times Square car bomb, officials said. He also claimed to have been trained at a terror camp in Pakistan's lawless tribal region of Waziristan, according to court documents. That raised increased concern that the bombing was an international terror plot.
Shahzad, a Pakistani-born U.S. citizen, was charged Tuesday with terrorism and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction in Saturday evening's failed Times Square bombing. According to a federal complaint, he confessed to buying an SUV, rigging it with a homemade bomb and driving it into the busy area where he tried to detonate it.
The Obama administration played down the fact that Shahzad, a U.S. citizen born in Pakistan, had made it aboard the plane. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano wouldn't talk about it, other than to say Customs officials prevented the plane from taking off. White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said the security system has fallback procedures in place for times like this, and they worked.
And Attorney General Eric Holder said he "was never in any fear that we were in danger of losing him."
But it seemed clear the airline either never saw or ignored key information that would kept Shahzad off the plane, a fact that dampened what was otherwise hailed as a fast, successful law enforcement operation.
The no-fly list is supposed to mean just that. And Shahzad's name was added to the list early Monday afternoon as a result of breaking developments in the investigation, according to a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation.
But when Emirates sold the ticket, it was working off an outdated list. Airline officials would have had to check a Web forum where updates are sent if it were to flag him. Because they didn't, law enforcement officials were not aware of his travel plans until they received the passenger list 30 minutes before takeoff, the official said.
By that time, passengers are usually on board.
Gibbs blamed the airline but emphasized a more positive bottom line: U.S. authorities did get Shahzad on the no-fly list and he never took off.
"There's a series of built-in redundancies, this being one of them," Gibbs said. "If there's a mistake by a carrier, it can be double-checked."
The list is only as good as the nation's intelligence and the experts who analyze it. If a lead is not shared, or if an analyst is unable to connect one piece of information to another, a terrorist could slip onto an airplane because his name is not on the watch list.
Officials allege that's just what took place ahead of the attempted Christmas Day attack on a Detroit-bound jet. In the case of the Times Square suspect, the intelligence process worked: Shahzad's name was on the list, but the airlines didn't check it when he bought his ticket.
Shahzad went through normal airport security before he boarded the plane. He was unarmed and had no explosive material on him when he was arrested.
Emirates did not return repeated calls for comments. Earlier in the day, the company issued a general statement saying it was cooperating with investigators and takes every precaution to ensure its passengers' safety.
The reliance on airlines to check government lists has been a known problem for years. The government has long planned to take over the responsibility for matching passengers to watch lists, but the transition has taken longer than expected. The new program is still in the test phase for domestic airlines and is still months away from beginning with international carriers.
incarcerated
05-04-2010, 23:39
Gibbs blamed the airline but emphasized a more positive bottom line: U.S. authorities did get Shahzad on the no-fly list and he never took off.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7116408.ece
FBI ‘lost’ Times Square suspect Faisal Shahzad before flight
From Times Online
May 5, 2010
An FBI team tracking the man suspected of the failed Times Square car bomb attack lost him for crucial hours before he drove to John F. Kennedy airport and boarded a plane to Dubai, intelligence officials have admitted....
….White House officials have praised the handling of the investigation, pointing out that Mr Shahzad was arrested before he could leave the country. But questions have been raised about the glaring security lapses on the part of government agencies and the airline that almost allowed him to flee the country.
Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York, said: “Clearly the guy was on the plane and shouldn’t have been. We got lucky.”
….Once all the passengers were on board the plane, and 30 minutes before it was due to depart, the final passenger manifest was sent to the National Targeting Centre, operated by Customs and Border Protection, as was routine.
At 11pm (local time) analysts discovered that Mr. Shahzad was on the no-fly list and had just boarded a plane. They sounded the alarm, and minutes later, with the jet still at the gate, agents came on board and took Mr. Shahzad into custody, officials said….
Police Commissioner Kelly made this statement this morning on National TV:Kelly said it was the "11th thwarted attack on New York City" since hijacked airliners destroyed the World Trade Center's twin towers on September 11, 2001
Dear Sir: please stop trying to placate the public the attack was not a "thwarted attack", it was accidentally discovered. If the attack was carried out by someone who knew what they were doing, NYC would have been hit again and due to location death and destruction would have been the result. We were VERY lucky.
Utah Bob
05-05-2010, 07:29
Police Commissioner Kelly made this statement this morning on National TV:Kelly said it was the "11th thwarted attack on New York City" since hijacked airliners destroyed the World Trade Center's twin towers on September 11, 2001
Dear Sir: please stop trying to placate the public the attack was not a "thwarted attack", it was accidentally discovered. If the attack was carried out by someone who knew what they were doing, NYC would have been hit again and due to location death and destruction would have been the result. We were VERY lucky.
Perhaps they have a special NYPD classification in their reports. Simply check the box labeled:
"Thwarted by bombers incompetence":rolleyes:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7116408.ece
FBI ‘lost’ Times Square suspect Faisal Shahzad before flight
From Times Online
May 5, 2010
An FBI team tracking the man suspected of the failed Times Square car bomb attack lost him for crucial hours before he drove to John F. Kennedy airport and boarded a plane to Dubai, intelligence officials have admitted....
….White House officials have praised the handling of the investigation, pointing out that Mr Shahzad was arrested before he could leave the country. But questions have been raised about the glaring security lapses on the part of government agencies and the airline that almost allowed him to flee the country.
Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York, said: “Clearly the guy was on the plane and shouldn’t have been. We got lucky.”
….Once all the passengers were on board the plane, and 30 minutes before it was due to depart, the final passenger manifest was sent to the National Targeting Centre, operated by Customs and Border Protection, as was routine.
At 11pm (local time) analysts discovered that Mr. Shahzad was on the no-fly list and had just boarded a plane. They sounded the alarm, and minutes later, with the jet still at the gate, agents came on board and took Mr. Shahzad into custody, officials said….
The fact that he was on a Plane taxing to the Run Way. Tells me the system failed. It failed big time. Just think how the story would of went if he actually got to his destination then disappeared into the populace. Or just got to take off.
How someone cant be flagged immediately at the counter when he checks in is beyond me. But the DHS do's have a new multi million dollar office being constructed. With millions of dollars in new furniture and vehicles. They also prevented Cat Stevens from boarding a Plane.
Utah Bob
05-05-2010, 08:01
Actually, the plane was still at the gate, not taxiing.
I wonder about being flagged at the counter when nowadays you only need to go to a kiosk to get your boarding pass.
Ret10Echo
05-05-2010, 08:25
Perhaps they have a special NYPD classification in their reports. Simply check the box labeled:
"Thwarted by bombers incompetence":rolleyes:
Proxy Thwartage??? :confused:
Sure...
Our experiences on our recent jaunt to the Chianti region and back.
Going:
DFW - our passports were scanned 2 times (self-check kiosk and baggage check-in) and checked at entry
JFK - our passports were scanned at baggage check, and checked at entry, gate counter, prior to being allowed into entryway to aircraft, and by flight crew upon entering aircraft (American Airlines).
Returning:
FCO (Rome) - our passports were scanned at check-in, scanned at baggage check-in, checked by customs, checked at departure gate, checked by immigration again just prior to boarding aircraft, and checked by flight crew upon entering aircraft (Air Iberia).
MAD (Madrid Barajas) - our passports were scanned at check-in and checked in gate area (twice), prior to being allowed into entryway to aircraft by airlines and immigration, and by flight crew upon entering aircraft (American Airlines).
There were several people at MAD who were taken for further screening prior to the flight and we found out it was due to their names being the same as some on the DNF list - one was a 22 YO girl from Omaha who had been traveling in Europe with her grandmother.
Richard
I wonder how many folks show up the same day at the airport and pay for an international flight in cash? Last minute international flight $500-$2000?
And so it goes...
Richard
Feds Didn't Call All Airlines To Warn Of Suspect
Eileen Sullivan, AP, 5 May 2010
Law enforcement officials decided not to call all airlines directly on Monday to tell them an important name had been added to the government's "no-fly" list, even as investigators pursued the man they suspected was the Times Square bomber.
Emirates airlines apparently didn't notice the notification from the Transportation Security Administration that there was an addition to the list, and Faisal Shahzad boarded a Mideast-bound jetliner before federal authorities pulled him off and arrested him. On Wednesday, the government issued a new requirement for airlines to check the no-fly list more often, a move aimed at closing that security gap in future cases of terror suspects.
But officials could have called all the airlines themselves in such a critical situation — they've done it before.
This would have put Shahzad on the radar of the carriers, and it could have prevented him from being able to board the Emirates plane headed for Dubai.
The FBI asked the TSA not to make the calls, according to an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss the ongoing investigation. The FBI did let the TSA call a few domestic air carriers, which did not include Emirates.
According to the Obama administration, the airline appeared to drop the ball on Monday by not consulting an updated list when the Times Square suspect purchased his ticket. A post-9/11 requirement that airlines provide Customs and Border Protection officials with lists of passengers 30 minutes before departure kept Shahzad from leaving the country.
(cont'd) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100505/ap_on_bi_ge/us_no_fly_airlines
On my way home this evening a local radio station was discussing this...
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/05/faisal-shahzad-times-square-bomb-fbi
Shahzad: On Feds' Radar in 2004?
By Daniel Schulman | Wed May. 5, 2010 11:00 AM PDT
How long has Faisal Shahzad [1] been on the radar of federal counterterrorism investigators? Read most press accounts and it sounds like the terrorism suspect, who's admitted [2] to the failed Times Square bombing, never raised any red flags up until the day he parked a propane, fireworks, and fertilizer-laden Pathfinder on West 45th Street and fled the scene. For instance, as Time reported [3] earlier, "…So far, the only indication that Shahzad had raised any suspicion among U.S. officials is the fact that he underwent secondary screening at the airport upon his return to the U.S. earlier this year."
But that may not be true. Shahzad, who lived in the US on and off since 1999, apparently drew the scrutiny of federal investigators long before the failed bombing that led to his dramatic arrest at Kennedy Airport. According to an intriguing paragraph buried deep in a New York Times story [4] published Wednesday, members of the national Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF), the same FBI-led interagency group whose agents hunted down and apprehended Shahzad on Monday, were keeping tabs on him as many as six years ago. The Times reported:
George LaMonica, a 35-year-old computer consultant, said he bought his two-bedroom condominium in Norwalk, Conn., from Mr. Shahzad for $261,000 in May 2004. A few weeks after he moved in, Mr. LaMonica said, investigators from the national Joint Terrorism Task Force interviewed him, asking for details of the transaction and for information about Mr. Shahzad. It struck Mr. LaMonica as unusual, but he said detectives told him they were simply "checking everything out."
If the Times' account is correct, why did JTTF investigators zero in on Shahzad back then?
So far, the media attention has focused largely on the lapses that lead to Shahzad's near-escape—the fact that he eluded the federal agents who'd been surveilling him and was able to buy a plane ticket and board his flight even after his name had been added to the no-fly list. But a bigger question may be how long the feds had Shahzad in their sights and how he came to be there to begin with. The matter was addressed briefly at Wednesday's White House press briefing, when ABC News correspondent Jake Tapper asked Robert Gibbs about the passage in the Times story:
TAPPER: And do you have any response to reports that this individual Shahzad, Faisal Shahzad -- the Joint Terrorism Task Force did know about him, had been alerted about him years before? Is there any new information you have about it?
GIBBS: Not that I'm aware of. No, not that I'm aware of. I have not seen that report. Let me take a look at it and see where the best place is --
I have a call into the FBI for comment. I'll update this post when I hear back.
No signs of a long term grudge....maybe he is a victim of some recent injustice or maybe he sit around for years 'sleeping' and waiting for his number to be called.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/05/times.square.investigation/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/05/times.square.investigation/index.html)
New York (CNN) -- Any grudge that accused Times Square plotter Faisal Shahzad may have held against the United States appears to have developed recently, according to a senior U.S. official who is familiar with the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly.
The investigation has found nothing to indicate that Shahzad had any long-standing grudge or anger toward the United States, the official said.
"What we know is, the dynamic appeared to have changed in the last year," the official said.
Investigators have not been determined whether Shahzad had any training from Pakistani groups in anything, the source said.
Additionally, the official suggested, detentions in Pakistan over the past two days were carried out to collect information and were not because officials had reached any conclusions about their guilt or ties to any groups.
"They are reaching out to people, bringing them in and doing their due diligence, but 'arrest' suggests a strong connection to the guy. While anything is possible, they haven't arrived at any conclusion," the source said.
Authorities in Pakistan have rounded up a number of people for questioning.
Shahzad's father-in-law, Iftikhar Mian, and friend Tauseef Ahmed were picked up in Karachi on Tuesday, two intelligence officials said.
In July, Shahzad was driven to a meeting with at least one senior Taliban leader in Pakistan by a man taken into custody Tuesday, a senior Pakistani official said Wednesday.
The official said Muhammed Rehan, who was detained Tuesday in Karachi, drove Faisal Shahzad in a pickup to Peshawar on July 7.
At some point, they headed to the Waziristan region, where they met with one or more senior Taliban leaders, the official said.
Rehan is believed to have links to the militant outfit Jaish-e-Mohammed, which is close to al Qaeda and the Pakistani Taliban, the official said.
Several officials in Karachi said Rehan was picked up in Karachi's North Nazimabad district. They said others were taken into custody for questioning Wednesday but could not say how many, who they were or where they were seized.
A senior U.S. official said investigators were looking into possible links between Shahzad and Pakistani groups and had found none, "but that doesn't say there is no connection."
The official added that there was nothing to indicate that Shahzad is from an extremist family.
In Washington, State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said "the Pakistanis are fully cooperating in the investigation. They recognize, as we do, that this is a shared responsibility and a shared threat."
Shahzad, a 30-year-old naturalized U.S. citizen from Pakistan, was arrested late Monday at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport after boarding a flight bound for Dubai, United Arab Emirates. His final destination was to have been Pakistan.
The charges against Shahzad paint him as a terrorist who received explosives training in Pakistan's volatile Waziristan region, where government forces have been working to root out Taliban militants. The Pakistani Taliban, a major militant group in the region, praised Shahzad but denied any link to him.
Shahzad has been charged with attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction, acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries, and three other counts in connection with the incident. If convicted, he could get in prison.
Read complaint filed in federal court Tuesday (PDF)
He waived his right to remain silent and his right to an attorney as he provided information about the plot to investigators, a source familiar with the investigation said.
Shahzad admitted that he drove a Nissan Pathfinder into Times Square on Saturday night and attempted to detonate the vehicle, which was packed with gasoline, propane tanks, fireworks and nonexplosive fertilizer, according to a complaint filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court in New York.
A law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation said investigators have found a train receipt showing that Shahzad boarded a train from New York to Connecticut 30 minutes after allegedly parking the car bomb. This source said investigators believe that he ran to catch the train, which pulled out about 7 or 7:15 p.m.
The source was unsure where in Connecticut Shahzad got off the train.
Court documents said that, after receiving bomb-making training in Pakistan, Shahzad returned to the United States via a one-way plane ticket February 3.
Shahzad told immigration officials upon his return that he had been visiting his parents in Pakistan for five months, according to the documents. He also told officials that his wife remained in Pakistan.
The court documents show that Shahzad apparently maintained contact with people in Pakistan after returning to the United States.
He received 12 phone calls from his country of birth in the days leading up to the incident, five on the day he bought the Nissan Pathfinder used in the attempted attack. Those calls ceased three days before the failed bombing, the documents show.
Authorities began focusing on Shahzad after tracing the sale of the Pathfinder to him.
Shahzad has a Karachi identification card, a sign of Pakistani residency, according to Pakistani Interior Minister Rehman Malik.
Shahzad's father, Bahar Ul Haq, is a retired senior officer in the Pakistani Air Force. The former air vice marshal lives in the Peshawar suburb of Hayatabad, according to Kafayat Ali, whose father and Faisal's father are first cousins.
Shahzad lived at his father's house in Hayatabad when his father was posted in Peshawar, Ali said. Shahzad, his elder brother Amir and their two sisters moved with the father and received their education in the cities where the father was assigned.
Ali said Shahzad's hometown is Mohib Banda, a village about 78 miles (124 kilometers) northwest of Islamabad. Ul Haq has farmland in Mohib Banda, and Faisal and his siblings visited there during vacations and to attend relatives' weddings.
Ali said Amir is a mechanical engineer living in Canada, where he is married and lives with his family. Both sisters are married; one is a doctor, and the other is a housewife.
"This is certain: that these people, they never indulged in any criminal activities," Ali said. "Not a family member. Not the village from which both of these people belong, none of the village members involved in any criminal activities or any jihad activities."
Shahzad almost eluded authorities, who arrested him late Monday on Emirates Flight 202 before it took off. His name had been put on a no-fly list earlier in the day.
Hours before the flight, he made his reservation by phone as he drove to the airport, investigators said. When he paid for his ticket in cash at the ticket counter, the airline had not refreshed its no-fly information so his name raised no red flags, a senior counterterrorism official said.
This has prompted the Department of Homeland Security to change its directives, telling airlines to check updated no-fly lists within two hours of when they are issued, not within 24 hours, as called for under the previous directive.
CNN's Deb Feyerick, Elise Labott, Reza Sayah and Samson Desta contributed to this story.
The official added that there was nothing to indicate that Shahzad is from an extremist family.
Most assuredly it couldn't have been a steady Qur'anic holy diet of anti-Zionist, anti-American, anti-Christian, or anti-Infidel ideology - Islam couldn't possibly cause normal-appearing Muslims to unpredictably become violent, that's just out of the question - why it's just crazy talk. :rolleyes:
The unchangeable reality, there's nothing sudden about sudden Jihad syndrome...
Ret10Echo
05-05-2010, 20:09
I wonder how many folks show up the same day at the airport and pay for an international flight in cash? Last minute international flight $500-$2000?
How about $6000
Option 1 USD 5949.10 for 1 passenger(s) (Fare USD 5926.00 + Taxes USD 23.10) OUTBOUND New York, United States to Dubai, United Arab Emirates Flight Depart / Arrive Time Airport Duration / Stops Class / Aircraft
EK204 Thu06 May 10 11:20 John F Kennedy International Airport (JFK) 12hr 45min
0 Stops Business
Boeing 777-300ER
Fri07 May 10 08:05 Dubai International Airport (DXB)
*Note: This part of your itinerary was priced on a class different from the one you requested, as we could not find the available seats / fare matching your request.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FARE USD 5926.00 + Taxes USD 23.10 Convert Currency Fare Conditions
Show Fare Breakdown
Hide Fare Breakdown
Fare Details Adults Children Infants
Airfare USD 5926.00
Taxes and fees USD 23.10
Total per passenger USD 5949.10
Number of passengers 1
Total USD 5949.10
Grand totalUSD 5949.10
How about $6000
Damn that expensive!
Ret10Echo
05-05-2010, 20:16
Damn that expensive!
For a guy who had his house foreclosed, just flew BACK from Pakistan, bought a vehicle for $1300, a train ticket....
That is extra expensive.
Might've been set up to 'test' the system.
Here's an interesting video to consider...
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/05/05/world/asia/1247467783770/a-visit-to-faisal-shahzad-s-village.html
And an article worth pondering...
So far, the Times Square case confirms what we already knew
Peter Feaver, Foreign Policy, 5 May 2010
I have been struck by how the various sides in the war on terror debate have all found justification for their prior positions in the unfolding drama of the Times Square terrorist. Advocates of treating terrorism primarily as a law enforcement problem praise the rapid forensics that caught the suspect (albeit, just barely). Critics point to the near-misses and other troubling details and renew their complaints about the Obama-Holder approach to terrorism.
So far, everyone seems pretty sure that their prior convictions were sound. Alas, I am no exception. It seems to me that the following four points, all of which I already believed, are supported by this case:
We are safer but not yet safe. It is much harder today for terrorists to launch the kind of mass-casualty terrorist spectacle they launched on 9/11 -- let alone an even more devastating WMD attack -- than it was a decade ago. That does not mean the terrorists have given up their desire to kill Americans. There is still a terrorist threat.
The amateurish nature of recent attacks is not proof that we can relax our guard. On the contrary, the amateurish nature of recent attacks seems rather to confirm the wisdom of many of the counter-terrorism policies the United States has adopted since 9/11. The attacks are amateurish because more devastating options have been made harder to execute.
We cannot avoid taking action that motivates at least some terrorists. Reportedly, the Times Square terrorist was motivated by the drone strikes, a tactic that was begun under Bush (though had antecedents in the Clinton and even Reagan eras) and substantially ramped up under Obama. While some on the far left have rejected the drone-strike tactic altogether, and many more have raised questions about certain aspects, there is a strong bipartisan consensus that some version of this tactic -- killing key terrorist leaders that cannot be captured -- is a necessary component of any sound counter-terrorism policy. During the Bush years, many partisan Democrats advanced the theory that terrorists were motivated chiefly by Bush foreign-policy choices, choices the critics thought were foolish anyway like invading Iraq or not coercing Israel into making more concessions to Palestinians in the peace process. Obama's campaign accepted this premise, and seemed to offer a new era in which America would stop doing things to fuel the terrorists. It is now obvious that even Obama has not avoided actions that motivated someone to become a terrorist. Of course, this does not mean that we should cavalierly ignore Muslim sensibilities or gratuitously insult them. Obama is right to try to calibrate our language and approach to avoid pointless provocations. Likewise, we should debate the wisdom of foreign policy choices like the invasion of Iraq or the proper approach to Middle East peace and in those debates the extent to which terrorists can exploit the issue for propaganda purposes is a relevant, but by no means dispositive, consideration. For a hardened core of would-be terrorists, however, there is nothing we can or should do to fully assuage their hatred.
Terrorist safe havens still matter, even in the age of al Qaeda 2.0. The terrorist movement may be more decentralized and web-based -- a necessary response to our counter-terrorism policies -- but terrorists still exploit safe havens if they can get access to them. Al Qaeda's great innovation was leveraging a vast infrastructure devoted to the weaponization of resentment and targeting it on the United States and our global interests -- turning angry individuals into terrorists willing to kill Americans and be killed for their cause. There were many key nodes in this infrastructure, but one of the most important was a safe-haven, a destination where would-be recruits were assembled, winnowed, trained, equipped, and finally commissioned. The invasion of Afghanistan and the denial of safe havens in that country is thus a vital step in the war on terror. Since the success of the initial invasion, however, some have speculated that the terrorist threat has morphed into an entirely web-based phenomenon, where the only "safe-haven" the terrorist needs is a virtual on-line one. If that day ever comes -- and I am skeptical -- we are certainly not there yet. Even an attack as unsophisticated as the Times Square attack, which in theory could have been hatched entirely through individual web-based research, apparently involved trips to North Waziristan. Control of territory still matters, which means that the Bush-era emphasis on helping responsible regimes establish effective governance is still an important part of the war on terror.
It is possible that these and other similar points are merely evidence that I am a victim of confirmation bias, seeing in a new case only those things that confirm what I already believed. If so, I am probably in very good company. At least I am willing to ask: what in this case disproves these four points?
http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/05/so_far_the_times_square_case_confirms_what_we_alre ady_knew
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Utah Bob
05-06-2010, 08:45
Might've been set up to 'test' the system.
Here's an interesting video to consider...
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/05/05/world/asia/1247467783770/a-visit-to-faisal-shahzad-s-village.html
And an article worth pondering...
So far, the Times Square case confirms what we already knew
Peter Feaver, Foreign Policy, 5 May 2010
I have been struck by how the various sides in the war on terror debate have all found justification for their prior positions in the unfolding drama of the Times Square terrorist. Advocates of treating terrorism primarily as a law enforcement problem praise the rapid forensics that caught the suspect (albeit, just barely). Critics point to the near-misses and other troubling details and renew their complaints about the Obama-Holder approach to terrorism.
So far, everyone seems pretty sure that their prior convictions were sound. Alas, I am no exception. It seems to me that the following four points, all of which I already believed, are supported by this case:
We are safer but not yet safe. It is much harder today for terrorists to launch the kind of mass-casualty terrorist spectacle they launched on 9/11 -- let alone an even more devastating WMD attack -- than it was a decade ago. That does not mean the terrorists have given up their desire to kill Americans. There is still a terrorist threat.
The amateurish nature of recent attacks is not proof that we can relax our guard. On the contrary, the amateurish nature of recent attacks seems rather to confirm the wisdom of many of the counter-terrorism policies the United States has adopted since 9/11. The attacks are amateurish because more devastating options have been made harder to execute.
We cannot avoid taking action that motivates at least some terrorists. Reportedly, the Times Square terrorist was motivated by the drone strikes, a tactic that was begun under Bush (though had antecedents in the Clinton and even Reagan eras) and substantially ramped up under Obama. While some on the far left have rejected the drone-strike tactic altogether, and many more have raised questions about certain aspects, there is a strong bipartisan consensus that some version of this tactic -- killing key terrorist leaders that cannot be captured -- is a necessary component of any sound counter-terrorism policy. During the Bush years, many partisan Democrats advanced the theory that terrorists were motivated chiefly by Bush foreign-policy choices, choices the critics thought were foolish anyway like invading Iraq or not coercing Israel into making more concessions to Palestinians in the peace process. Obama's campaign accepted this premise, and seemed to offer a new era in which America would stop doing things to fuel the terrorists. It is now obvious that even Obama has not avoided actions that motivated someone to become a terrorist. Of course, this does not mean that we should cavalierly ignore Muslim sensibilities or gratuitously insult them. Obama is right to try to calibrate our language and approach to avoid pointless provocations. Likewise, we should debate the wisdom of foreign policy choices like the invasion of Iraq or the proper approach to Middle East peace and in those debates the extent to which terrorists can exploit the issue for propaganda purposes is a relevant, but by no means dispositive, consideration. For a hardened core of would-be terrorists, however, there is nothing we can or should do to fully assuage their hatred.
Terrorist safe havens still matter, even in the age of al Qaeda 2.0. The terrorist movement may be more decentralized and web-based -- a necessary response to our counter-terrorism policies -- but terrorists still exploit safe havens if they can get access to them. Al Qaeda's great innovation was leveraging a vast infrastructure devoted to the weaponization of resentment and targeting it on the United States and our global interests -- turning angry individuals into terrorists willing to kill Americans and be killed for their cause. There were many key nodes in this infrastructure, but one of the most important was a safe-haven, a destination where would-be recruits were assembled, winnowed, trained, equipped, and finally commissioned. The invasion of Afghanistan and the denial of safe havens in that country is thus a vital step in the war on terror. Since the success of the initial invasion, however, some have speculated that the terrorist threat has morphed into an entirely web-based phenomenon, where the only "safe-haven" the terrorist needs is a virtual on-line one. If that day ever comes -- and I am skeptical -- we are certainly not there yet. Even an attack as unsophisticated as the Times Square attack, which in theory could have been hatched entirely through individual web-based research, apparently involved trips to North Waziristan. Control of territory still matters, which means that the Bush-era emphasis on helping responsible regimes establish effective governance is still an important part of the war on terror.
It is possible that these and other similar points are merely evidence that I am a victim of confirmation bias, seeing in a new case only those things that confirm what I already believed. If so, I am probably in very good company. At least I am willing to ask: what in this case disproves these four points?
http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/05/so_far_the_times_square_case_confirms_what_we_alre ady_knew
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Four good points. I might modify the first to say, "We are safer but not yet safe. We will never be completely safe"
I was trying to explain to some friends the other day how it's just not possible to stop all terrorist action. It's a war. It's inevitable that bad things will happen and people will get killed. They want the government to protect them 24/7.
I told them security like that might be achievable, but they wouldn't like they cost of paying for it. And I wasn't talking dollars.
craigepo
05-06-2010, 10:51
Pretty good diagram of the device
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100505_uncomfortable_truths_times_square_attack? utm_source=SWeekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=100506&utm_content=readmore&elq=b05539aa1ab7457db70509304a9f3343
DJ Urbanovsky
05-06-2010, 11:35
Nobody is ever really safe. It's just the unpredictable nature of life, and the natural tendency of universe to fall into a state of disarray.
I'm thinking dry run.
Maybe this guy didn't build the bomb. Maybe it was just his job to procure the vehicle, deliver it to the "bomb maker," and then drive it to the target. Maybe they told him he was delivering a real bomb. Dude doesn't know jack about bombs, so the mess of propane tanks and wires in the back certainly looks real enough to him. When the bomb doesn't end up going off and he realizes that he's on camera and his people just threw him away, he books to the airport to try and catch a flight back to the homeland where he is subsequently caught.
craigepo: Wow. Just... Wow. That diagram made me laugh. Looks very Wile E Coyote.
It appears Faisal Shahzad was removed from the Department of Homeland Security travel lookout list (Arif Alikhan? - Rashad Hussain?) sometime after Barack Obama came into office and Shahzad also had a web of jihadist contacts that included radical American-born Muslim cleric Anwar Awlaki :confused:
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/05/breaking-obama-administration-removed-faisal-shahzad-from-terror-surveilance-list-before-attack/
Edited to add - Faisal Shahzad's motivation:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/photo_exclusive_inside_times_sq_OtgxGIbOJSTachTWz5 ahSP?photo_num=28
How about $6000In style...1st class seating right there.:D
Stay safe.
Ret10Echo
05-07-2010, 06:37
Following the money....:munchin
Investigators seek money courier in NYC bomb plot
By TOM HAYS and RASOOL DAWAR, Associated Press Writers Tom Hays And Rasool Dawar, Associated Press Writers
4 mins ago
.NEW YORK – Investigators of the failed car bombing in Times Square are looking for a money courier they say helped funnel cash from overseas to finance a Pakistani-American's preparations to blow up the crude gasoline-and-propane bomb in the heart of New York, a law enforcement official told The Associated Press.
Investigators have the name of the courier who they believe helped Faisal Shahzad pay for the used SUV and other materials to rig up a car bomb that would have caused a huge fireball in Times Square if it had gone off, the official told the AP. The official didn't know how much money may have changed hands.
The official spoke on condition of anonymity Thursday because of the sensitivity of the investigation.
U.S. law enforcement officials traveled to Pakistan — where Shahzad spent five months before returning to the U.S. in February — to question four alleged members of an al-Qaida-linked militant group. Investigators are trying to trace his movements in his homeland and looking into the possible financing of the operation between the Pakistan-born budget analyst and foreign terror groups.
Shahzad, 30, who remains in custody on terrorism and weapons charges, lived alone in a Bridgeport, Conn., and rented an apartment with no apparent job since February. He is seen on videotape buying boxes of fireworks from a Pennsylvania store and authorities say he bought a rifle in Connecticut over the past three months with no apparent source of income.
He paid for the used SUV with 13 $100 bills, authorities say, then tried to blow up the vehicle in Times Square on Saturday. A T-shirt vendor saw smoke coming from the SUV and alerted police.
Officials have been investigating if Shahzad got money from militant groups, including the Pakistani Taliban, which originally claimed responsibility for the bombing attempt then backed off that claim.
Pakistan Interior Minister Rehman Malik said Friday he believed Shahzad did not act alone, but he had seen no evidence suggesting the Pakistan Taliban were involved.
"All those leads, suggesting it was his own action, I will not accept that. I'd like to see details," Malik told reporters in Beijing. "Obviously, he had bought a vehicle filled with explosives. It looks a bit difficult (to say) that he's (working) alone."
A Pakistani Taliban spokesman said Thursday the group had nothing to do with the attempted bombing, but added: "Such attacks are welcome."
"We have no relation with Faisal. However, he is our Muslim brother," Taliban spokesman Azam Tariq told the AP in Pakistan by telephone from an undisclosed location. "We feel proud of Faisal. He did a brave job."
The group has never launched a successful terrorist attack against the United States.
Since his arrest Monday, Shahzad admitted to the failed bombing and has cooperated in the investigation, authorities say. He has not yet appeared in court.
Still, police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said investigators want to find out if "what he's saying is in fact the truth."
"We are directly looking at who did he have contact with while in Pakistan, what did he do, who is supporting him and why," State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said.
In Karachi, Pakistan, both U.S. and Pakistani officials questioned four alleged members of the Jaish-e-Mohammad militant group, two Pakistani security officials told the AP, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media. The militant group is believed to have been established by Pakistani intelligence agencies, and has been linked to the al-Qaida terror network and the 2002 killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.
Shahzad, 30, who remains in custody on terrorism and weapons charges, lived alone in a Bridgeport, Conn., and rented an apartment with no apparent job since February.
In honor of the “Stones” release of "Satisfaction" on this day in 1965, I humbly post this tribute to Faisal Shahzad, recorded by the GITMO band, “The Man Caused Disasters” - Too bad Faisal’s not in GITMO :D
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAu2wXMrZwk
incarcerated
05-09-2010, 11:41
http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/holder-pakistani-taliban-times-square-attack/story?id=10597754
Holder: Pakistani Taliban Behind Times Square Attack
Attorney General Eric Holder Links Faisal Shahzad to Pakistani Taliban
By JACK DATE
May 9, 2010
Attorney General Eric Holder says the accused Times Square bomb plotter, Faisal Shahzad, was backed by the Pakistani Taliban.
"We've now developed evidence that shows that the Pakistani Taliban was behind the attack," Holder said in an interview on ABC News' "This Week."
"We know that they helped facilitate it," Holder added. "We know that they probably helped finance it and that he was working at their direction."
The Pakistani government, Holder said, has been "extremely aggressive" in assisting with the investigation.
"They've been cooperative with us, and I think we have been satisfied with the work that they have done," Holder said.
Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, in another "This Week" interview, criticized the Obama administration for reading Shahzad his Miranda rights.
"I would not have given him Miranda warnings after just a couple of hours of questioning," Giuliani said. "I would have instead declared him an enemy combatant, asked the president to do that, and at the same time that would have given us the opportunity to question him for a much longer period of time."
Holder called for clarifying the so-called public safety exception to the requirement that Miranda rights be read to people under arrest, especially in terrorism cases.
The public safety exemption gives law enforcement agencies permission to delay protocol involving reading a suspect his or her rights when the suspect is believed to be a significant threat to the general public.
"We're now dealing with international terrorism," Holder said, "and if we are going to have a system that is capable of dealing in a public safety context with this new threat, I think we have to give serious consideration to at least modifying that public safety exception."
Holder said the administration will be working with Congress to modify the exception in a way that "gives the necessary clarity, is flexible, but is also constitutional."
....Holder also addressed the question of where the trial of accused 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will be held. Although the Obama administration pulled back Holder's decision last year to hold the trial in Manhattan, Holder left open the possibility that a New York trial still could happen....
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hl8an49qp_s1dtfW-HCKdjEMkXpwD9FJBJOG0
Holder: Pakistani Taliban behind Times Square plot
(AP) – 4 hours ago
WASHINGTON — Attorney General Eric Holder says the Pakistani Taliban was "intimately involved" in the failed Times Square bombing.
Holder says the Taliban in Pakistan "directed this plot." A U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent, Faisal Shahzad is accused of spending five months in Pakistan before returning to the United States in February and preparing his attack.
Holder says the Taliban also planned and perhaps financed the plot. Shahzad's bomb failed to explode.
The attorney general also said he believes there are constitutional problems with a proposal to take away the citizenship of Americans working for foreign terrorist organizations and of lone-wolf terrorists.
Bipartisan legislation on the citizenship question was introduced Thursday in both houses of Congress.
Holder spoke on NBC's "Meet the Press" and ABC's "This Week."
ZonieDiver
05-09-2010, 11:58
I don't care much for Rudy Guiliani, but the look he gave the interviewer today on the "George Stephanopolous Show" - without George - was priceless. He was speaking to the fact that the "M-88 Bomber" had been stopped more than once coming back into the USA with lots of cash - once $80,000. - without attracting "undue" attention.
The interviewer said, "Yes, but he was put on a Treasury Department "watch list" - to which Rudy simply chuckled.
We, it seems, are the real clowns... when it comes to "security"!
incarcerated
05-09-2010, 20:26
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704307804575234721020972034.html?m od=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_3
Times Square Abettors Have History of Success
POLITICS
MAY 9, 2010, 9:34 P.M. ET
By SIOBHAN GORMAN And DAMIAN PALETTA
The Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan, a militant group that Obama administration officials on Sunday said was behind the botched Times Square car bombing, has helped orchestrate some of the most significant terrorist attacks or plots in recent years, U.S. officials say.
But its targets have generally been closer to home.
The group, also known as TTP or the Pakistani Taliban, allegedly played a central role in the 2007 assassination of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and in the suicide bombing at a Central Intelligence Agency base in Afghanistan late last year that killed seven CIA officials....
In January 2008, 14 people— including 12 Pakistanis—were arrested in what Spanish officials said was a suicide bombing plot targeting the subway in Barcelona, Spain. That came less than one year after the assassination of Ms. Bhutto.
In an effort to target the group, U.S. and Pakistani officials have focused on the Waziristan region of Pakistan near the Afghanistan border. The U.S. has for months been pressuring Pakistan's armed forces to move in to North Waziristan, the Pakistan Taliban's last redoubt in the tribal regions. Faisal Shahzad, a U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent who allegedly tried to set off the Times Square bomb, got training there, Pakistan military officials say.
Until now, the Pakistani army has held off on moving in to the region, arguing its resources were stretched after more than a year of fighting other militants in Pakistan.
Evan Kohlmann, a terrorism specialist who has been monitoring the Pakistani Taliban communications efforts closely, said on Sunday that his group recently got word the Pakistani Taliban may be planning to release more material to show its involvement in the Times Square plot.
Mr. Shazad's Times Square plot was the first time the Pakistani Taliban has been known to try to execute an attack on U.S. soil, but it is at least the second time it tried to attack in a Western country.
"The problem is that they're coming out of nowhere, and unlike al Qaeda operatives, where you can see them usually a long way off, these guys are usually more difficult to spot because its difficult to tell who exactly they are and what they're doing," Mr. Kohlmann said.
Dark Matter
05-10-2010, 10:27
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/157-157/1908-did-special-forces-help-catch-suv-bomber
thought this article was interesting
Reports are emerging suggesting that secret US military intelligence aircraft were used to find and locate Faisal Shahzad, the man accused of attempting to set off a crude car bomb in Times Square. The CBS affiliate in New York reported today: "In the end, it was secret Army intelligence planes that did him in. Armed with his cell phone number, they circled the skies over the New York area, intercepting a call to Emirates Airlines reservations, before scrambling to catch him at John F. Kennedy International Airport." The post at 5:34 PM was titled "Army Intelligence Planes Led To Suspect's Arrest." But then at 6:21 PM, the article's title was changed to "Total Time Of Investigation: 53 Hours, 20 Minutes: Faisal Shahzad In Custody After Nearly Fleeing United States." As Rayne observed on FireDogLake, the paragraph about the Army planes was deleted from the CBS story. Screenshot of the original post here.
A US Special Operations Force source told me that the planes were likely RC-12s equipped with a Guardrail Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) system that, as the plane flies overland "sucks up" digital and electronic communications. "Think of them as manned drones. They're drones, but they have men sitting in them piloting them and they can be networked together," said the source. "You have many of them--four, five, six of them--and they all act as a node and they scrape up everything, anything that's electronic and feed it back." The source added: "It sucks up everything. We've got these things in Jalalabad [Afghanistan]. We routinely fly these things over Khandahar. When I say everything, I mean BlueTooth would be effected, even the wave length that PlayStation controllers are on. They suck up everything. That's the point."
Guardrail has been used for years by the US military. In recent years, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military has also used the "Constant Hawk" and "Highlighter" aerial sensor platforms. All of these programs have recently undergone a series of upgrades.
So were US special forces involved with Shahzad's arrest?
"My conjecture at the moment is that immediately after this went down and they knew that he was on the loose, parts of the domestic counter-terrorism operations that they had set up during the Bush administration were reactivated," says the Special Forces source. "They're compartmentalized. So they kicked into high gear and were supporting law enforcement. In some cases, law enforcement may not have even known that some of the signals intelligence was coming from covert military units."
If true, that could mean that secretive programs such as "Power Geyser" or "Granite Shadow," remain in effect. These were the unclassified names for reportedly classified, compartmentalized programs under the Bush administration that allegedly gave US military special forces sweeping authority to operate on US soil in cases involving WMD incidents or terror attacks.
"They sidestep Posse Comitatus," said the source.
The Joint Special Operations Command, which was run by Gen. Stanley McChrystal from 2003-2008, is reportedly allowed to operate on US soil. That's a result of Presidential Decision Directive 25 (PDD-25), an executive order drafted by President Clinton on May 3, 1994. The complete text remains classified, however, "The full text of PDD-25 is reported to exempt the Joint Special Operations Command from the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 18USC Sec.1385, PL86-70, Sec. 17[d]. which makes it illegal for military and law enforcement to exercise jointly," according to GlobalSecurity.org.
Among the questions raised by the apparently central role of US special forces in the arrest of Faisal Shahzad is this: To what extent are US Special Forces permitted to operate on US soil under President Obama?
Also, Why did CBS scrub the initial mention of the involvement of Army Intelligence aircraft from its story?
UPDATE: The big story today is how the FBI team tracking Faisal Shahzad in Connecticut allegedly lost track of him. According to reports, Shahzad actually made it onto the Emirates aircraft scheduled to fly to Dubai. As The New York Times reported:
**
"Though Mr. Shahzad was stopped before he could fly away, there were at least two significant lapses in the security response of the government and the airline that allowed him to come close to making his escape, officials of the Department of Homeland Security, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and other agencies said on Tuesday.
First, an F.B.I. surveillance team that had found Mr. Shahzad in Connecticut lost track of him — it is not clear for how long — before he drove to John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York, the officials said."
**
This is all entirely plausible. But what if that is not the entire story? At this point, this is just a thought, a possibility to ponder: It could be that the Feds lost track of Shahzad, but that other US forces, namely US military special operations forces (perhaps JSOC), were tracking him and waiting to see if he made any calls, met with any contacts, took any action while he was still a free man.
Consider the confidence of Attorney General Eric Holder, who said bluntly: "I was never in any fear that we were in danger of losing him." Those could be the words of a man trying to downplay what could have been a major FBI failure that, in part, would have played badly for Holder. Or they could be the honest words of a man who knew it was all being taken care of and how.
The official timeline of events released by the White House contains some interesting details that suggest US military special forces involvement. On Sunday at 3pm, according to the timeline, "Nicholas Rasmussen, Senior Director for Combating Terrorism Strategy, convenes an interagency meeting on this incident in the White House Situation Room." Rasmussen is a shadow figure. He cut his teeth in the Bush administration after 9/11 where he worked on the "dark side" as a director of the National Security Council's office of combating terrorism, putting him in regular proximity to Special Access Programs and other activites of which we dare not speak. To give context to Rasmussen's current job, one of his predecessors was Vice Admiral William McRaven, the current head of JSOC. "McRaven has managed to bridge both the civilian and military worlds," reported Newsweek. "While working at the National Security Council after 9/11, he was principal author of the White House strategy for combating terrorism."
If the hunt for Shahzad was being run through the National Security Council, which it was, the commander of the Joint Task Force would report to the NSC, which would in turn report to either John Brennan, the Deputy National Security Adviser for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism or National Security Advisor Jim Jones, and then they would report to the President. From the White House timeline, Brennan seemed to be serving that function. And remember, Brennan also comes from the dark side.
The point of all of this being that the story may not be as simple as the FBI losing Shahzad. One cog in the wheel may not have necessarily known what another was doing at any given time. It could be that there were forces at play in this operation whose involvement may not be a part of the story the White House wants divulged. Just a thought.
Jeremy Scahill
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/157-157/1908-did-special-forces-help-catch-suv-bomber
thought this article was interesting
Just a quick obervation after reading the "original" article...
Do the the morons who run around this Country under the guise of "journalist," really believe they are just trying to inform?
Do they even consider WTF they are doing to Our National Security, and those brave men and women who fight and die for it???
My belief is hell no, and it makes me sick!:mad:
Holly