Extremely complicated - looking for a shot

[Sprinter922]

Good morning,

I am here to try and condense this as much as possible without leaving out any important facts and thereby reducing the need for back and forth questioning replies. Please, if you're interested in helping a VERY willing and tenacious prospect achieve a special operations dream, read the wall of text below.

I've been fully active on ArmyRanger.com and Armyparatrooper.org for years now and hold two former special operations mentors. I enlisted into the Army with a Ranger contract my Junior year of high school, graduated early with a diploma, and shipped to Fort Benning. At the end of OSUT I was discharged for Scoliosis. However, they did NOT put medical on my DD214's. They instead ELS'd me out with a JGA *general conduct* separation code. Reason being: my Scoliosis does NOT meet the 22 degree regulation for it to have been medical, though the Drill Sgts and medical professionals felt I wasn't ready.

Immediately upon discharge, I pursued reenlistment full-time. After a year of it, I was denied by the Army for the JGA separation code I have, though I have all the medical documents and counseling statements paralleling medical.

I then began enlistment into the Navy on a SEAL challenge contract. I did all the training, I passed the PST flawlessly numerous times, I took and passed the Computerized Special Operations Resilience test with a 4/4, and retook the ASVAB to receive an AFQT of 78 with a GT of 118. I successfully received a tattoo waiver, an Army RE:code waiver, a medical waiver, and more. I had the full support and backing of the spec ops mentors in the region. I was just as of 3 weeks ago, told after all this, the Navy in specific classified my continuation high school as a Tier II school and denied me entrance.

During those processes I acquired 5 letters of recommendation from people who were either very professional, or very high ranking in their field of service. I personally attained 3 written letters from medical doctors and orthopedic surgeons stating I was physically fit for any and all military service possible. Including passing a MEPS-assigned consult to a back doctor.

I finally was turned to the National Guard. I ignored this option originally because I wrongfully assumed they held standards the same as the active duty Army. I am beginning the enlistment process with the NG on Monday the 19th to see if there's any hope there.

I've NEVER been told I was "permanently" disqualified from the military, and until so, I will always be enlisting full-time. I'm VERY ambitious and will never give this up, though I am pursuing alternate career choices in the meantime. *I.E. Highway patrol and enrolling into a university*.

With as many details in the air as possible, that all being said, herein lies my question of assistance to the professionals here - is there ANY rout into the Special Forces given my circumstances?

Thank you. For further information, confirmation of active duty / former military members following this process, please refer to the two links below, which account week by week for 3+ years what has been going on.

Army Ranger enlistment recruiting forum story.. (http://forum.armyranger.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=48391)

Army Paratrooper reenlistment assistance and information story.. (http://www.armyparatrooper.org/dropzone/showthread.php/18056-Enlsitment-update-Mentor-request)

[The Reaper]

Sounds like you require a lot of waivers.

Nothing personal, but why should SF give you a shot when there are others who want to join and require no waivers?

Life Lesson Number One. Actions (and decisions) have consequences.

Best of luck to you.

TR

[Sprinter922]

The Reaper,

From my experiences, as the economy and war scene changes the waivers do as well. A waiver, waives a current standard set that you may or may not meet. When you receive a waiver , you have been waived of some and are now at standard with
everyone else, making you a regular enlistee. That is why I feel I should have a shot in those regards.

I've read a lot of posts here regarding quitters, people dodging deployments through exploitation of SFAS, etc. I understand it costs a lot of money even to put someone through a wasted slot. The men who provide this training do not have the time for that. However I, a young willing man with plenty of support and willingness to succeed, is being slowed by current standards. As you said, decisions have consequences, though not all my waivers were decision based.

So what it comes down to in my opinion, is that once the Army or NG has waived the process and qualified me for enlistment, I feel I'm on par for a shot at this just like anyone else. Though having done a lot more to get there and in generally better physical shape and mental mindset.

If this is not the place to address this then I will go about getting in through my own research and enlistment procedures, and I appreciate everyone's time and thought.

[Utah Bob]

The Reaper,

If this is not the place to address this then I will go about getting in through my own research and enlistment procedures, and I appreciate everyone's time and thought.

I would recommend that course. You do seem to have a complicated situation.
It does not appear that you have a burning desire to be SF, just to be in the military. I believe your best bet will another career path. Good luck to you.

[Sprinter922]

I may have incorrectly conveyed what I was going at. Through those two forum links I posted to the other forums, you will see that this is all for special operations. I want to serve in a special operations unit more than anything. You ae correct that it is not specifically SF so much as it is any high capacity unit. With my first contract, it was Rangers, with my Navy contract, it was SEALS, and now returning to Army / NG routes and being 20 years old, it is SF and the 75th.

Again , though my optimal goal is special operations, if I am I'm the wrong by seeking assistance here I will no longer post. I feel as though I have a lot more potential than man of the other candidates, but do to my situation I just need a slightly large sphere of influence and people to assist in any way.

[CSB]

OK, you are looking to serve your country in a "special operations capacity." But you were separated your first time around with a Trainee Level SPD "JGA" discharge.

Now there are many reasons for entry level uncharacterized discharges, and sometimes those are remedial. Sometimes it's maturity that's lacking, sometimes it is the intagibles of "untrainability."

There is a reason all of the armed forces value a bona fide high school diploma over a GED or a Tier II school (a school with "independant study, home schooling, on-line alternative", etc.). Earning a diploma means sticking with a program start to finish, not accepting shortcuts.


As the The Reaper immediately noticed, you are requesting too many waivers at such an early age and with zero military experience to be considered a candidate for the United States Army Special Forces, and probaby most other Special Operations Forces as well.

I'll be blunt: You couldn't make it through a conventional high school to graduation; you couldn't make it through a garden variety OSUT, you couldn't make it through the enlistment process without a medical waiver (22 degrees or not). You needed a tattoo waiver? WTF? At age 18 you have demonstrated such poor judgment as to get a tattoo that required a military waiver!?


What make you think that SFAS or any SOF selection process will approve you? What can you bring to the table?

You sound like a high school boy who declares from the beginning "I want to be a brain surgeon" when you haven't even made it through college, much less be accepted to medical school.

IF, and only if, you can prove yourself ... say, by obtaining a two year degree; enlisting in the National Guard, making it through MOS training, maybe get a few stripes on your sleeve, demonstrate the ability to make wise decisions, in short, do what too many of our youth of today are unwilling to do: "pay your dues" you be recognized as a special operations candidate.

Then the SF Recruiters will come around to your unit and seek you out.

[The Reaper]

The Reaper,

From my experiences, as the economy and war scene changes the waivers do as well. A waiver, waives a current standard set that you may or may not meet. When you receive a waiver , you have been waived of some and are now at standard with
everyone else, making you a regular enlistee. That is why I feel I should have a shot in those regards.

I've read a lot of posts here regarding quitters, people dodging deployments through exploitation of SFAS, etc. I understand it costs a lot of money even to put someone through a wasted slot. The men who provide this training do not have the time for that. However I, a young willing man with plenty of support and willingness to succeed, is being slowed by current standards. As you said, decisions have consequences, though not all my waivers were decision based.

So what it comes down to in my opinion, is that once the Army or NG has waived the process and qualified me for enlistment, I feel I'm on par for a shot at this just like anyone else. Though having done a lot more to get there and in generally better physical shape and mental mindset.

If this is not the place to address this then I will go about getting in through my own research and enlistment procedures, and I appreciate everyone's time and thought.

Nothing personal, but I would rather see you prove that you can be a good soldier before I would let you even try out for SF.

IMHO, anyone with that many failures to meet standards and inability to complete training needs to demonstrate some level of successful service before being given an opportunity to join our ranks.

Just my .02 based on 25 years plus in SF. You asked for our opinions, now you have mine.

TR

[Sprinter922]

Respectfully noted, I appreciate the criticism. Though attention to detail would yield different responses. In my post I described different. Again, It was not performance, it was medical, Scoliosis. I am going to court with the Army discharge
review board to fix these document to medical. The tattoo need waivers because they all need waivers right now due to the recession and heavy enlistment, not due to any controversial happenings on my part.

Again, as stated in my main post, I do NOT have a GED, I have a diploma and am persuing college courses now additionally. The Navy classified graduates of my high school as tier II, do to it being continuation. I utilized the schools accelerated credits program to graduate a year early an leave for the military early to serve, until they discovered I had scoliosis.

Additionally speaking on my defense, I needed these waivers by Naval standards. Army and national guard only require One waiver of me:medical, which I've successfully done once already for SEALS. It's hard to break this apart and understand what's going on if you have not been on the other forums, but again I've made no failures. I graduated early with again, a diploma. I suppose I came to the wrong place for assistance I will continue seeking it through the other forums on getting an opportunity. I appreciate your time and assistance as always and thank you for protecting our country in the capacity you do.

[Peregrino]

You've been given a lot of extremely valid advice. You've chosen not to listen. That makes you a poor candidate for Special Forces. I wish you luck wherever else you decide to apply. And good luck carrying the average SOF rucksack far enough and long enough to achieve your goals with scoliosis severe enough to be your excuse for having been discharged the first time.

[Dozer523]

With as many details in the air as possible, that all being said, herein lies my question of assistance to the professionals here - is there ANY rout into the Special Forces given my circumstances? How about 11B National Guard? Do well in your first year with your drill unit (ie. keep your mouth shut about future snake eating ambitions, do well on the range and the APFT, never be late, don't annoy the old guys ie. ME). After about 3 or 4 months ask the Training NCO if he can find you a slot to jump school (oh, he can). After a year go to NGSF tryouts and see where that takes you.
You want it, then go get it.

(Guard actually has some mega-sweet deals regarding tuition waivers for state Schools, at least in Illinois.)

As for this:So what it comes down to in my opinion, is that once the Army or NG has waived the process and qualified me for enlistment, I feel I'm on par for a shot at this just like anyone else. Though having done a lot more to get there and in generally better physical shape and mental mindset. 1) Big whoop. No one but you cares about your opinion, don't share it. 2) You are not entitled to a "shot" maybe you get one, maybe you don't -- decide how you're going to live with it. Or just take the shot (see above) 3) Maybe you think you've done more but alot of what you've done is repairs for self-inflicted problems (such is youth) 4) physical and mental prep, better then most maybe, maybe not. there is no way to tell before SFAS. Your physical, mental and emotional prep had better be as good as most. It would suck to go though all this and find out it's not for you (re-read TR's posts)
Good luck.

[head]

Though attention to detail would yield different responses.

Oh really? You just pushed my button, bro.
Here's the perception given from an attentive perusal of your post..
Your DSgts saw reason to boot you other than medically, since you weren't medically disqualified. They didn't think you were ready? Sounds to me like they didn't want to deal with a Sick Call Ranger. Or they just looked at your back and said "Damn, that shits fucked up"? These are rhetorical questions - I've been to basic, bro, and, while you may have been really unlucky, the only guys who had their past medical history brought into question either underperformed or used it as an excuse to quit.

I don't care, man.. I'd rather have a guy on my team that has a decent back to start with.. cause yes, it's going to hurt and its going to be getting worse. Read any other thread about guys putting their medical issues above the performance on a team and the response sound like this.

Is there any route? If I told you No, would you listen? You already have the answer - go to an NG tryout... but please leave all the excuses at home. You aren't entitled to SF or SOF and wanting it is not enough...you have to start DOING it, and you've shown that everytime when it comes time for the rubber to meet the road, you run into a roadblock. You invest too much energy in the wrong venues... three internet forums? What would you have done before the internet? Go read the Tao Te Ching if you need advice on dealing with obstacles in life.

[1stindoor]

Oh really? You just pushed my button, bro.
... three internet forums? What would you have done before the internet? Go read the Tao Te Ching if you need advice on dealing with obstacles in life.

He's pushing mine too...but I think you've summed it up for both of us. He's getting help on the 'net....I guess by people with a larger sphere of influence.

Thank goodness the economy went south or else we might have had to take him. lol.

[Sprinter922]

I am starting the process for 11b enlistment with the NG on Monday. I will take the direct advice messaged and posted for me and instead of typing up ambitions on a computer seeking further assistance, I will act in a unit and repay back what has been invested in me and work for a slot in the future before any longer trying to secure a slot that could be fulfilled by a more promising candidate. Thanks for the wakeup, I have no further questions.

[Guy]

Oh really? You just pushed my button, bro.Same here...Goddamn yoga works.:D

Stay safe.

[SF_BHT]

I am starting the process for 11b enlistment with the NG on Monday. I will take the direct advice messaged and posted for me and instead of typing up ambitions on a computer seeking further assistance, I will act in a unit and repay back what has been invested in me and work for a slot in the future before any longer trying to secure a slot that could be fulfilled by a more promising candidate. Thanks for the wakeup, I have no further questions.

It is about time you turned off the send button and turned on the recieve.:eek:

Prove your self and a lot of doors will open but you have to get through the first door, basic/AIT.

:munchin

[The Reaper]

I am starting the process for 11b enlistment with the NG on Monday. I will take the direct advice messaged and posted for me and instead of typing up ambitions on a computer seeking further assistance, I will act in a unit and repay back what has been invested in me and work for a slot in the future before any longer trying to secure a slot that could be fulfilled by a more promising candidate. Thanks for the wakeup, I have no further questions.

That would be a good start.

If you succeed, then you can look into service in SOF.

Best of luck.

TR

[Green Light]

I think what my brothers have said above is really good advice. This is a place where the advice is worth much more than what you pay for.

You have a couple of small indicators that makes my eyebrows raise but one is tattoos. When I was teaching pre-phase back in 78 with my team one of the things we noticed was that when you had a very young candidate who had tattoos ("Death From Above", a green beret, jump wings) many times they'd voluntarily withdraw at a rate that was higher than others. There's something about a young guy who gets body art.

Disclaimer: I've had lots of team mates with tattoos and were fine soldiers. What is different these days is young folks get them as a statement - possibly counter-cultural or meaning to shock their families or other authority figures. This is not aimed at QPs or any other any other professional who already has BTDT.

All of that aside, if anyone's back or feet are bad, SF may be a poor career choice. If you go into this business with a physical negative, then chances are good that it will adversely affect you later in life, possibly when your team needs you the most. If you're mind as well as your body aren't 100% . . . (see above)

Take the QP's advice above. See how you do in the infantry (first get through basic). Get to a dermatologist and have the tatoos removed. Do everything you can to strengthen your back. And above all, pull your head out of your 4th point of contact and listen to those who went before you. You are not as smart as you think: stupidity on the battlefield = death + mission failure). Earn the opportunity to go to SFAS.

But whatever you do in life, do it better than anyone else. You've had a bad false start - go back and turn it into a learning experience.

[JimP]

I got as far as reading that you were discharged with a "General" discharge?? If you were actually discharged NOT "Honorable"; but "Under Honorable Conditions", you are NOT telling us the truth. Come clean with why you were tossed and maybe someone can help you.

Can't bullshit a bullshitter son, and this place is chock full of some of the best!

[Sprinter922]

I got as far as reading that you were discharged with a "General" discharge?? If you were actually discharged NOT "Honorable"; but "Under Honorable Conditions", you are NOT telling us the truth. Come clean with why you were tossed and maybe someone can help you.

Can't bullshit a bullshitter son, and this place is chock full of some of the best!

Attached is the final separation counseling statement from the Senioar Drill Sgt. to inform me of my separation.

Additionally the separation memorandum from the Battalions LTC. stating why it was ELS instead of EPTS.

I am trying to give the men here all the info possible. So I hope these help your understanding. I've been given advice on what to do, and I'm going to take it to the letter.

[SF_BHT]

Attached is the final separation counseling statement from the Senioar Drill Sgt. to inform me of my separation.

Additionally the separation memorandum from the Battalions LTC. stating why it was ELS instead of EPTS.

I am trying to give the men here all the info possible. So I hope these help your understanding. I've been given advice on what to do, and I'm going to take it to the letter.

Your actual discharge papers ?:munchin

[1stindoor]

I'll give you credit for actually scanning and uploading the documents. I wish you well in your goal to enter the NG. As has been stated several times, do well, and doors will open for you.

[Utah Bob]

"I am counseling you on the conduct noted above"

What conduct?:confused:

[Pete]

"I am counseling you on the conduct noted above"

What conduct?:confused:

Wearing Medical Equipment

[JimP]

Dude - this makes NO sense what-so-ever. What did your TDS attorney say to you?? Who was it?

[Sprinter922]

Dude - this makes NO sense what-so-ever. What did your TDS attorney say to you?? Who was it?

I was not assigned one. I was just a pathetic basic training "recruit" with a "gimp back" that medical professionals "claimed" was caused by Scoliosis. Apparently both the drill sgts and medical "professionals" do not know of the genetic influences that are Scoliosis and what can be accomplished with it.

I have more documents, but again, I've been given advice and will take it. I did a SPF from the Navy to the National Guard today, next week we'll send the waivers up to recruiting command.

But to help it make more sense, the letters basically explain that medical professionals thought gear caused my problems. Then, my senior drill sgt, who you see in the separation counseling statement, insisted that I will wear gear in any MOS and therefor not fit for military service. Once he put in for ELS / EPTS everyone just signed it off*i.e. XO, LTC*. Because again, there's no need to "check", I'm just a "gimp private" as some said. At the time of inspection you could physically see the bump in my back because of muscle imbalance, which has since been alleviated through physical therapy and fully cleared for the third year in a row.

[Utah Bob]

Well, good luck.

[JimP]

Sprinter - I've got a query out to a bud. I'll get back to you on this. This is laziness on the part of a number of people.

[Sprinter922]

Sprinter - I've got a query out to a bud. I'll get back to you on this. This is laziness on the part of a number of people.

As always, I deeply appreciate yours' and everyone else's time in any capacity.

I've also taken this matter into my hands as well. I sent in a letter to the Army Discharge Review Board nearly half a year ago for a personal court date at my own expense. The goal of this is to take all my documents, and get my DD 214's changed to the proper code so I do not look like such a pathetic enlistee to recruiting command, the my first RE:code waiver was successful they seemed to understand the situation.

I'm not too worried about it, however. It was only 90 days of service and the codes are uncharacterized as opposed to dishonorable.

[JimP]

That makes a little more sense. You'd get an uncharacterized rather then a "General". But, the ABCMR is the way to go for correction - just make sure you have you stuff squared away. I should hear something from my bud today if he's not downrange.

[Sprinter922]

That makes a little more sense. You'd get an uncharacterized rather then a "General". But, the ABCMR is the way to go for correction - just make sure you have you stuff squared away. I should hear something from my bud today if he's not downrange.

JimP,

I may have used an alternative name for ABCMR, though that is the agency I used. I went through my congressman a week or so ago to put an inquiry in on my case. The ABCMR called me this morning and said my case is being reviewed by the panel, and that I should receive a result in 45 days or less.

[JimP]

Rog - my bud said you aren't entitled to TDS assistance as the implications to your career are so low. Therefor, you have the usual administrative remedies. Did you get a clean bill of health from a reputable medical establishment proving you CAN wear the kit; do the job? Did you include that in your appeal to the ABCMR? Google up some stuff on the Army Discharge review Board: IIRC, you are also eligible to have them review your case if the ABCMR doesn't clean this up, (although I'm not all too sure what they would do with an uncharacterized separation). I'll have to browse AR 635-200 next week at work and what your due-process rights are.

[Sprinter922]

JimP-

When I looked at the website they looked very similar. However if the agency you recomneded and the ADRB are different, then I used the Army Discharge Review Board, who said I'll be receiving a verdict on my case next month.

To the medical question, yes. During my years of reenlistment I've acquired 4 letters from medical doctors and a surgeon all back-related clearing me 100% for any active duty job. Two of them specifically stated in their letters specifically that I was medically suited for special operations forces. They were all signed in pen. I also have a letter of clearance for SEALS from a MEPS assigned doctor consult during my naval enlistment attempt.