Reliable Pistol

[Buffalobob]

In my neighborhood we have had such a rash of burglaries night and day and even with people in the house that I have decided to finally buy a gun for shooting people instead of animals.

I do not like to have a loaded gun around but do not mind having a loaded magazine next to an empty gun. I have looked at the specs on almost all of the pistols available and have settled on about 5 that have barrel lengths that suit me and are in 9mm which has a low enough recoil that even I can probably hit a person inside the house several times in a row. I have added a Colt 1911 in 39 Super just out of nostalgia. Double action means nothing to me being as I am so used to single action that I would never use it. Revolvers are too slow to load and I have several already.

What I want to know is only one thing. Which of these is the most reliable and jam free. I do not want a pistol that is finicky and has to constantly have the magazine lips adjusted nor do I want to have to try to clear a stoppage when I most need to shoot. If there is a 4.5 -5.0 inch barrel 9mm that I have not listed then feel to add it to the list.

The pistols under consideration are
Glock 34
Berretta 92
H&K USP Tactical (USP9 SD)
Sig P250
Colt 1911 38 Super”

[koz]

PM sent. Here's a good link on a Glock 21 torture test LINK (http://theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=40) I'd personally go with the Glock.

The Springfield XD tactical is also a good weapon.

[Anevolution]

PM sent. Here's a good link on a Glock 21 torture test LINK (http://theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=40) I'd personally go with the Glock.

The Springfield XD tactical is also a good weapon.

Sir, I second the vote for glock. It will go bang everytime you want it to. In 9mm I would go with the 19. I had a XD in .40, I sold it in less then 3 months and went back to the glock.

V/r
Anevolution

[Defender968]

It will go bang everytime you want it to. In 9mm I would go with the 19.

Not necessarily, I've personally had my dept issued Glock 21 go click no bang twice in 4 years.... both were on the range thank God, bad striker spring both times IIRC, could have been my wicked bad luck/karma, but I never felt great about Glocks after the 2nd time it happened. BTW I am/was extremely anal retentive about cleaning my weapons, I carried a back up Sig 239 in a vest holster as a result. Put thousands of rounds through both my Sigs (220&239) and neither has ever missed a beat.

I’ll always vote Sig (until I find something better) Just my .02 YMMV. (Sig also do good deals direct for Mil/LEOs as well),

[Peregrino]

And I've got two XD tacticals (9mm & .45) that you can't talk me out of. :p FWIW - I would check out the XDm 9mm, maybe the new 3.8 version, or look into a S&W M&P in 9mm since you seem to have a rationale for your caliber choice. Sorry, I'm (obviously) not a Glock fan. Otherwise a Sig 229, 250 or the USP varient. Why give up magazine capacity in favor of nostalgia with the 1911? I've personally used everything except the M&P and the 250. I've got respected friends who've given me input on them, that's why I'm comfortable with passing the opinion. Good luck.

[Ken Brock]

I've got more experience with the Glocks than anything else

I have the option with my department to carry whatever gun I want and I carry a Glock everyday

[rubberneck]

Smith and Wesson M&P's are really nice and very reliable. I have one with over 5,000 rounds on it with no issues. I had a G34 and hated it and it's extended slide, the G17 and 19 feel more natural to me, YMMV. The H&K P30 and the P2000 are two more that should be on your list of wonder nines to consider.

[Anevolution]

Not necessarily, I've personally had my dept issued Glock 21 go click no bang twice in 4 years.... both were on the range thank God, bad striker spring both times IIRC, could have been my wicked bad luck/karma, but I never felt great about Glocks after the 2nd time it happened. BTW I am/was extremely anal retentive about cleaning my weapons, I carried a back up Sig 239 in a vest holster as a result. Put thousands of rounds through both my Sigs (220&239) and neither has ever missed a beat. I’ll always vote Sig (until I find something better) Just my .02 YMMV. (Sig also do good deals direct for Mil/LEOs as well),

Defender968:
Your cleaning habits could have something to do with your issues. Glocks like to be run a bit dryer then other guns and maybe a bit dirtier. You being anal about cleaning and stripping your gun could have played a part in the failure. Getting two bad striker springs after being replaced with oe parts by a glock armor sounds to me like something else is wrong.

V/r
Anevolution

[allamerican8204]

I own a 9mm P250c that I use as my carry pistol. I've put around 1k rounds out of it without a jam. Also, I like that if I want to have a .45 or a .357 sig or any of the aforementioned calibers in a standard size I just have to buy the kit and not a new handgun. So far it carries well and is really light even with all 17 rounds. Mine was a certified pre-own I picked up off of gunbroker.com. If you are considering one check with Youth Shooting Sports Alliance on gunbroker mine was in perfect condition and I only paid $400 for it :D. It's a charity organization auction and they have one up for bidding right now.


T.P.

[Kyobanim]

And I've got two XD tacticals (9mm & .45) that you can't talk me out of. :p FWIW - I would check out the XDm 9mm, maybe the new 3.8 version, or look into a S&W M&P in 9mm since you seem to have a rationale for your caliber choice. Sorry, I'm (obviously) not a Glock fan. Otherwise a Sig 229, 250 or the USP varient. Why give up magazine capacity in favor of nostalgia with the 1911? I've personally used everything except the M&P and the 250. I've got respected friends who've given me input on them, that's why I'm comfortable with passing the opinion. Good luck.

+1 for the XD
I've been shooting my XD9 religiously for several years and treating it like shit and have never had a problem.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

My two cents probably aren't worth that much when it comes to pistols but here goes.
Of several 9mms I have the Berretta 92 is near flawlessI say near because it has never failed me. Eats anything I load it forgivingly, accurate, and carries lots of rounds.
My favorite shooter is the Walther P99QC, a little expensive but never has failed and shoots fast, it's .40cal, I've a couple of .45s but my favorire non malfunctioning one is a Ruger P97DC. Also eats what ever I feed it.

I don't own but have fired a Springfield XD .45 of a friends and really like it.
I also like my 1860 Colt cap 'n Ball, but wouldn't defend my home with it even if jesse James robbed banks with it. LOL Dave

[C0B2A]

With out a doubt I would go with the Glock. Reliability, cost, accuracy, and accessibility for mags and after market parts, you can not beat a Glock. I carry a Glock 19 every day.

[rdret1]

I have a Glock 19C I have carried off duty for 12 years now. I have put a few thousand rounds through it in that time and have never had a problem with function or accuracy. It is large enough to use as a service weapon and small enough to conceal under most circumstances.

[regular guy]

Sir,
I +1 everyone on the Glock, I love them. But that H&K is the Lexus of handguns IMHO. I own the same one, just in the .45 version. The smoothest firing .45 I have ever owned, so I would imagine the same or better for a 9 MM. Pretty pricey though, and it is important that you always shoot premium/match ammo through it. Kinda like putting unleaded in a mercedes - just doesn't work. And the sights on the tactical are big, so you are pretty limited on the selection of holsters if you want to go concealed. My front sight post sticks out like a shark fin and doesn't fit anything but the Blackhawk drop leg with the jumpable retention strap. Although with the popularity rising I assume manufacturers are building to those specs.

[Smokin Joe]

I personally would recommend a Glock 17 for several reasons.

1) They are as plain jane as you can get. And IF you shoot someone what type of weapon you use WILL be ANALyzed and arm chair quarter backed to death several times over

2) 17 rounds per magazine

3) Great reliability


I personally am NOT a glock fan but I do own 3 of them because all of mine work all of the time... I personally do not like them because of the grip angle, trigger over travel, and other mechanical issues that I am nit picky about... but they are like an SKS they just flat work all the time!

Based on what your asking for I would strongly point you towards a Glock 17 it will fit all of your requirements..... plus when it goes to evidence you won't be heart broken that they took your nice HK. ;)

[99meters]

I recently sold a Hk P30 .40cal I had bought for my wife added a few hundred and bought a glock 17 for her and a glock 23c for my self.
I took the G17 to the range and shot a little over 200 rds no problems. Nice gun.

[MeC86]

My vote is for Glock as well. I've had a 17 for about 7 years and It has never once had a failure to fire. Id estimate over 25,000 rounds through it and treated like shit.

There are guns that I shoot better with (kimber, hk45) but for reliability I think a glock is pretty solid.

[Tacticalinterve]

Having done the Range Duty thing in PD for twenty years and millions of rounds down range I have come to the conclusion the Glock 17 is the most reliable pistol on planet for the money. Now I still prefer the 1911s when hand tuned but by the time you ahve one that runs witha Glock 17 for reliability you have over 1250.00 in it.

Now the stopping power of a nine lacks compared to a 40 or 45 so if I was you I would pick up a Glock 22, which is basically a 17 in 40 SxW

[koz]

Now the stopping power of a nine lacks compared to a 40 or 45 so if I was you I would pick up a Glock 22, which is basically a 17 in 40 SxW

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

It's more about shot placement...


I watched a guy in Sao Paulo get shot at pointblank range with .45 Black Talons (two shots) in the chest, he looked down, drew his gun and returned fire. :eek: The will to live is pretty incredible.

[Tacticalinterve]

Koz, its a long time prejudice of mine. Heck shoot one guy witha nine three times in chest and have him walk away and you have it ingrained for life.

I was a victim of the FBI recomendation to use 115 Silver Tips back a coupl of decades ago. LOL Not one got deep enough to do any real damage.

Now obviously shot placment is important but bringing a load is also important. Who here if had a choice would pick getting shot with 45 over a 9mm?

[DinDinA-2]

The potential recipients of your rounds vary so much, that the largest caliber you can accurately deliver to the target is the one I would choose...and now have chosen, a 45 ACP (HK of course). A 38+P JHP Speer has done the job for me, decades ago, with the assistance of a partner with like rounds. Was that my choice of caliber..no. Dept policy dictated at that time. Have seen head shots, social shootings, who have tipped over only to get up and continue the social conflict until separated by us peace keepers.

The point is that a stopping/killing shot delivered,in your home, to a criminal is such a crap shoot because of the wide range of the target's ability to handle the shot. Clothing, substance influence, physical characteristics and just plain toughness are just some of the influences as to how a target will fall. With that in mind, a 9mm doesn't do it.

As for the pistol of choice...why choose one that can prefers to be dry, a bit dirty, wet...get one that doesn't care, just runs and is, as they say, is "drop dead reliable", regardless what is costs. Research and comments by the QPs will guide you.

[regular guy]

Koz, its a long time prejudice of mine. Heck Who here if had a choice would pick getting shot with 45 over a 9mm?
It would depend if I am wearing armor or not :D

[Buffalobob]

I would say Thanks, to everyone for their advice. It seems that a Glock or Springfield XD is going to be a good choice. I really did not know Springfield had such a good reputation.

The Glock 34 has about one inch more of barrel than the Glock 17 which will be helpful for an amateur like me if I put Trijcon sights on it. Also if I ever decide to shoot three gun competition then I have something to play with.

I will go and handle the Glock and XD and see how they feel being as the gun has to point correctly for me or else it is worthless.

If y'all wish to have fun debating caliber you are free to continue that, but I am not into that. I have a S&W 460 for protection in grizzly bear country so I know what stopping power means. For home use, I could go up to a .40 cal and load it light but then I would have to worry about spring rates etc. so it is best for me to just go with the 9mm which is what I can manage accurately.

As afar as shotguns go, I have a lot of them but either it has too be already loaded or you have to fumble around with shells in the dark. I do not wish to have a loaded gun in my home. The whole object here is to have the minimum activity necessary to be fully armed.

Appreciate the information and the best thing is that it comes from people who actually know.

[JJ_BPK]

Bob

I've held off commenting because one of my favorites is not on your list.

Figure it's about time..

Smith & Wesson Performance Center weapons are some of the least thought of but highly respected bang sticks available.

I have had many S&W and never had a complaint. I do have a bias to wheel guns, but enjoy the pistols.

As your may be on your way to the LGS, take a look at any of the S&W PC offerings they may have.

Because the PC guns are all limited editions, your LGS may not have a large selection. Sometimes the gun show is the only place to find any.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&categoryId=15714&parent_category_rn=15701&top_category=15701

One reason I like S&W is the lifetime warranty on 3rd gen weapons. This also includes 2nd, 3rd party sales. You do not have to be the ORIGINAL purchaser.

Additionally S&W has options to send your weapon to the PC for tuning and other aftermarket accessorization(sic).

Which brings up another goody. If you purchase a used decon-LEO weapon, you can send it to S&W and they will test and fix, I believe for FREE.. AND do tune-up's for a modest price.

Just another opinion...

[SF-TX]

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf


A little irony in the tattoo's on the deceased:

What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger

Live By The Gun Die By The Gun

[monsterhunter]

I've carried the same Beretta 92FS for 18 years now. Thousands of rounds have gone down range without one malfunction. The current ammo issue is Ranger SXT which has proven to be very effective. I haven't had to use it on a person myself; however, a couple of terrorist pitbulls went immediately to their 72 (or whatever the currnent numer is) virgins with one shot and a fast drop. I highly recommend it. I'm also hearing very good things about the Sig.

I had a stove pipe on time while shooting a compact Beretta 92. It was with several other rounds being fired, but the rails were dry. They no longer make this version.

[mojaveman]

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

It's more about shot placement...


I watched a guy in Sao Paulo get shot at pointblank range with .45 Black Talons (two shots) in the chest, he looked down, drew his gun and returned fire. :eek: The will to live is pretty incredible.


That was a very interesting report. If true, it's intriguing that the .40 S&W rounds that the officers fired from about twenty feet only penetrated the assailants body by 1".

[dr. mabuse]

*

[99meters]

The Glock 34 has about one inch more of barrel than the Glock 17 which will be helpful for an amateur like me if I put Trijcon sights on it. Also if I ever decide to shoot three gun competition then I have something to play with.

For home use, I could go up to a .40 cal and load it light but then I would have to worry about spring rates etc. so it is best for me to just go with the 9mm which is what I can manage accurately.

Consider buying the G35, it has that extra inch over the G22/G17 that you want. The other good thing is you can buy a drop in 9mm barrel from Lone wolf for around a $100. You can also get a drop in barrel for .357sig. Kinda like three guns in one.
I plan on getting the 9mm drop in for my G23.

HTH

[The Reaper]

Consider buying the G35, it has that extra inch over the G22/G17 that you want. The other good thing is you can buy a drop in 9mm barrel from Lone wolf for around a $100. You can also get a drop in barrel for .357sig. Kinda like three guns in one.
I plan on getting the 9mm drop in for my G23.

HTH

I do not believe that the slides are the same for all of those rounds, or all you would need to convert is a barrel.

The 9x19 and the .40/.357 SIG have different case head diameters, and consequently, different breech faces, not to mention slide weight is probably different.

TR

[Five-O]

If reliability is your primary criteria then it is difficult to beat the Glock. Assuming you are going to shoot it a few times to get comfortable with it then store it..they have a demonstrated track record of reliabilty with all previous actecdotal problems not withstanding. Caliber is a personal choice but if you are not going to shoot the weapon on a regular basis (assumption) 9mm will give you more opportunities to score muliple hits under stress. Additionally for the Glock, accessories essentially fall out of the sky and are easily purchased with little effort or searching.

I don't believe I saw this mentioned previously in this thread, if I missed it then I apologize. For a night stand home defense pistol...Get a LIGHT on the gun as well. My .02

[ccrn]

These were the candidates for the Joint Combat Pistol program:

Smith & Wesson M&P .45
Smith & Wesson SW990L
Smith & Wesson Model 4566 TSW
Smith & Wesson Model 4563 TSW
Springfield Armory XD-45
Ruger P-345
Ruger P90
GLOCK 21
GLOCK 21SF
FN Herstal FNP-45
Heckler & Koch USP 45
Heckler & Koch USP Compact 45
Heckler & Koch HK45
Sig Sauer P220

You will see the M&P and XD on there, as well as the Glock.

I carry HK only ,unless on duty of course-

[koz]

It is possible to convert a G35 to a 9mm with a barrel, but to get it to run reliably (as far as competitions are concerned) he would need to swap out the extractor and ejector. It may also be necessary to change the guide rod/spring too. Reliability is questionable with the conversion - not the right combo for a HD gun...

[99meters]

I do not believe that the slides are the same for all of those rounds, or all you would need to convert is a barrel.

The 9x19 and the .40/.357 SIG have different case head diameters, and consequently, different breech faces, not to mention slide weight is probably different.

TR

TR, I know Lone Wolf and Bar-sto makes the drop in barrels for glock conversions. I don't have first hand experience on how well they work, just hear-say.
I just got done buying some Heinie Straight Eights to replace the factory sights on my G23. My next purchase will be one of the above 9mm drop in barrel ( I have to sneek them in ..... wife...).When I do, I will report back on how well it does of does not work.

99

[Red Flag 1]

I had a Lama .380 that would stovepipe with every mag. Never found a way to stop it. Bought a Glock 19, end of problem; I've used it since 1993 with never an issue.

My brother is a firearms instructor at the FBI Firearms Training Unit, Quantico. His suggestion was the Remington Model 870. They equip theirs with open rifle sights, and fire rifled slugs for up to 100 yds. Looking at a 12ga from the wrong end has been known create epiphanies from time to time. I like the comfort of 00 shot like Brush Okie suggested.

My $.02.

RF 1

[The Reaper]

TR, I know Lone Wolf and Bar-sto makes the drop in barrels for glock conversions. I don't have first hand experience on how well they work, just hear-say.
I just got done buying some Heinie Straight Eights to replace the factory sights on my G23. My next purchase will be one of the above 9mm drop in barrel ( I have to sneek them in ..... wife...).When I do, I will report back on how well it does of does not work.

99

You missed my point.

The guns are not identical, less the barrels. You can make a .40 a .357 with a barrel swap, and vice versa. I do not think you can do the same with the 9mms. It might fit, but it probably will not run well.

TR

[ktek01]

One good thing about Glocks, most ranges that rent guns seem to have just about one of each model for rent. I would strongly recommend renting a few if possible. The Glock grip is a little weird and what you think may fit you best might not be true. My wife and I tried the 17, 21, 22, 26, 30 & 36.

We could shoot all well, but the single stack sub-compact 36 was what we both shot the best. The .45s all were easier shooting for us, felt like more of a gentle push instead of the snappier recoil of the 9s and .40s We both carry the 36 now, but also considering the 21 SF or 35 for 3 gun matches. I was not a fan of the plastic gun before I decided to rent a few and give them a try.

[mark46th]

There was a thread on a forum that I can't think of off hand about handgun ammunition and lethality. The guy who was the focus of it was a coroner's investigator for Fulton County(Atlanta, Ga?). He had seen hundreds of shooting victims over the years. He said the one round that consistently produced fatal wounds was the .357 Magnum. He felt the reason for the .357 Mag's lethality was its ability to penetrate. You said you didn't want a loaded weapon in the house but you weren't averse to having a pistol with a mag nearby. I keep a Ruger SS Security Six in .357 Mag with a speed loader nearby. A speed loader is the same as a magazine to me....

I will look for that article. It was very interesting. The most entertaining aspect of the article was the people who thought they knew what they were talking about, arguing with someone who really did know what he was talking about...

This guy did say that if you have your choice, a 12 gauge with slugs is the best option...

[rdret1]

There was a thread on a forum that I can't think of off hand about handgun ammunition and lethality. The guy who was the focus of it was a coroner's investigator for Fulton County(Atlanta, Ga?). He had seen hundreds of shooting victims over the years. He said the one round that consistently produced fatal wounds was the .357 Magnum. He felt the reason for the .357 Mag's lethality was its ability to penetrate. You said you didn't want a loaded weapon in the house but you weren't averse to having a pistol with a mag nearby. I keep a Ruger SS Security Six in .357 Mag with a speed loader nearby. A speed loader is the same as a magazine to me....

I will look for that article. It was very interesting. The most entertaining aspect of the article was the people who thought they knew what they were talking about, arguing with someone who really did know what he was talking about...

This guy did say that if you have your choice, a 12 gauge with slugs is the best option...


The .357 mag, like any other round, depends on proper shot placement. On Nov. 20th, 1992, South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates shot an assailant with his issue .357 Mag. The guy lived. Trooper Coates was hit with one round, under his arm pit above his vest, by a .22. He died in just a few seconds. The in car video of this incident is used as training in Basic Law Enforcement classes nation wide. It is a gruesome video, but drives home a basic officer survival point.

[mark46th]

Yup, placement is everything.

[99meters]

The .357 mag, like any other round, depends on proper shot placement. On Nov. 20th, 1992, South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates shot an assailant with his issue .357 Mag. The guy lived. Trooper Coates was hit with one round, under his arm pit above his vest, by a .22. He died in just a few seconds. The in car video of this incident is used as training in Basic Law Enforcement classes nation wide. It is a gruesome video, but drives home a basic officer survival point.

This was the video that got me switched-on as I was completing my academy training.

Re TR: Maybe I did miss your point. However, the drop ins barrels are being marketed as drop ins with no other mods needed.
There are a few online post and reviews from end users that are positive. All or most users recommend needing 9mm mags for best results. The one complaint that came up a few times, is the gun seems to shoot high.
Can't beat first hand knowledge ...... as promised, when I try it I will report back.

99

[ccrn]

My brother is a firearms instructor at the FBI Firearms Training Unit, Quantico. His suggestion was the Remington Model 870. They equip theirs with open rifle sights, and fire rifled slugs for up to 100 yds. Looking at a 12ga from the wrong end has been known create epiphanies from time to time.

My $.02.

RF 1


Well said. Best home defense as far as firepower goes.

Hard to discreetly carry one around your house and property though. I can imagine having the neighbors over for dinner, and having a 870 slung while you eat.

Cant beat the lethality of it though-

[Smokin Joe]

VWell said. Best home defense as far as firepower goes.

Hard to discreetly carry one around your house and property though. I can imagine having the neighbors over for dinner, and having a 870 slung while you eat.

Cant beat the lethality of it though-

Its your house, you should have 'things' strategically located throughout your home to be able to repel at least little 'contact'. You would be amazed what you can stash around your home without your neighbors noticing. Most of my neighbors are sheep who keep their heads down and keep to themselves.

[Buffalobob]

About 4:00 last night a truck two houses down the street from us had a window smashed and the alarm went off and scared the burglar off. The truck belongs to a college kid who rents a basement apartment from one of our neighbors. The kid did not lose anything but now has to pay to have the window replaced.

My daughter came in from class about 8:30 last night and said two police cars were parked three blocks away from our house so the police are trying hard to catch the guy. I think it is just some local guy who has a drug problem because the stuff that is happening is really stupid.

So this morning I went back to the gun shop. It is really interesting how much different a pistol feels in your hand when you are in a really bad mood. It just seems to point better and hold steadier! This time the Glock 34 felt much better and pointed better, although it seems to be sensitive to how you first wrap your hand around it. But if I grip it hard, then it lines up fine. So I bought the Glock. In order to register it in DC, they swapped out the high capacity magazines for 10 round magazines (what a bummer).

[frostfire]

The Glock 34 has about one inch more of barrel than the Glock 17 which will be helpful for an amateur like me if I put Trijcon sights on it. Also if I ever decide to shoot three gun competition then I have something to play with.

I will go and handle the Glock and XD and see how they feel being as the gun has to point correctly for me or else it is worthless.

IMHOO, in the absence of range test, this is one of the best method to test if the pistol matches the person.

I don't like glocks. Weird grip angle, bulge at the back of handle, double-feed/FTE with limp wrist etc. The pistol that points naturally for me and the one I started with is the USP compact series. However, when I acquired a G17 gen 4 recently no matter how I pick it up, two hands, strong hand, weak hand, it just points with perfect sight alignment. I presume that years of competition using G34 has conditioned my eye-hand-body to match Glocks design. I still don't like glocks, but it works. Hence, *shrugs*

FWIW, the smaller grip size, great grip texture, and double spring in G17 Gen 4 has allowed me faster and more accurate follow-up shots due to reduced muzzle lift and lower perceived recoil. As you plan to deliver more than just one round, I strongly recommend this one to test. If you look around, LE & vet/AD should be able to get it for $400 with three mags

[Streck-Fu]

I do not believe that the slides are the same for all of those rounds, or all you would need to convert is a barrel.

The 9x19 and the .40/.357 SIG have different case head diameters, and consequently, different breech faces, not to mention slide weight is probably different.

TR

I used to own a G23 originally in .40. For variety, I purchased the .357 Sig barrel and 9mm barrel to shoot those rounds as well.

For the 9mm, only a barrel and G19 magazines were needed. Some recommend the G19 extractor while many say it is not necessary.

Right or wrong, I put a few thousand 9mm rounds through the G23 using only the conversion barrel and magazines and the G23 extractor never failed to pull the brass. Just my experience, nothing more. I never advise to use the 9mm on the G23 slide for defensive use but it worked well for me as a plinking rig at the range.

I eventually sold the pistol for my current XD9 which I like much better. The Glocks, to me, are the AK-47 of the handgun world; Damn reliable and accurate enough. I just really like the fell of the XD much better.

[Buffalobob]

I went and shot the Glock 34 yesterday. It brought back remembrances of the part of the debriefing sessions called “Lessons Learned”. :boohoo

1. This is not a good home defense weapon. A bucket of rocks would be better because you can only throw the glock once but with a bucket you can just keep on throwing rocks.

2. Building on #1 above the Glock is obviously a member to the local pistol union and as such the shop steward has determined it only has to feed and fire ammo costing more than fifty cents a round. It is under no obligation to feed cheap PMC ammo.

3. PMC ammo will not even cycle the action far enough to clear the case in the chamber a lot of times.

4. The meaning of the term “ limp wrist” shooters finally penetrated the depth of my cortex and became understandable.

5. The cure for limpwrist syndrome has certain characteristics similar to the 60mm knee fired mortar. You can only cure it once by putting your off side hand such that your thumb over laps on the top of your gun hand as you would a revolver.

6. Tumbling your cheap PMC brass with your 460S&W brass may save energy but it is dumb as all get out. The 9mm brass will go down into the bottom of the 460 brass and the vibrations will cause media to wedge between the case walls and stick the 9mm brass tight in the bottom. It requires looking in each case with a flashlight to be sure you don’t have the doubled up cases. Trying to get it out is an exercise for Jane Goodall and the chimps. The 460 is a roll crimp so stuff hangs at the mouth. Of course if you miss one that is all right, as soon as you break your decapping pin you will figure out that there is a case inside a case.

7. Paying $252 for 1000 pieces of new Lapua brass is starting to look intelligent being as the gun obviously likes to have some chamber pressure and Lapua brass (at least in a rifle) will tolerate a lot of chamber pressure.

8. I should have just stuck with the 469S&W. Its slow as trying to eat cold oatmeal, but you only got to hit a person once with it. The muzzle blast alone would fry the hair off his head. :D


Other than all of that, if you feed it moderately priced ammo it will put every round in a four inch circle at 25 yards just time and time again. In all seriousness its probably a very good pistol and I would never have bought cheap ammo except I wanted it for the brass to reload. It did fine with ammo that would actually cause the slide to go all the way to the rear stop.

[JJ_BPK]

I went and shot the Glock 34 yesterday. It brought back remembrances of the part of the debriefing sessions called “Lessons Learned”. :boohoo


I love a check list that comes together,, After the fact.. :eek::D:eek:

I suspect that after a couple hundred rounds you may be able to fire even Wolf steel-case.. I have a G 23 that loves anything as long as it's FMJ.

[koz]

I'm a little surprised that the PMC wouldn't cycle but it is Korean. It seems that Glocks take about 200 rounds to break in. I've shot new Glocks with the Winchester white box bulk ammo with no problems. In my G34 - I loaded crap brass with Winchester 231 4.5 ~ 4.6grains, CCI or Winchester SP primers, and 115gr FMJs. That was plenty even in a new pistol.

My 8yr daughter shoots mine and can manage not to limp-wrist... That's all I have to say about that.:cool:

As far as the brass tumbling... If you want to mix brass, get the Lyman brass baggie (http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/13978/Case-Tumbling-Accessories) It keeps the brass separate.

Give her a chance - you'll like her.

[The Reaper]

I have a Glock 17 that I bought, installed a target trigger, lubed, and took directly to a tactical class.

I put more than 5,000 rounds of Remington yellow box ammo through it with zero malfunctions.

TR

[Buffalobob]

I have a Glock 17 that I bought, installed a target trigger, lubed, and took directly to a tactical class

Where and with what do you lube it?


My 8yr daughter shoots mine and can manage not to limp-wrist... That's all I have to say about that.

My daughter beats me so regularly at F-class that I just wear a hat that says "Coach".

[LarryW]

"Coach"...:D:D:D

I have to remember that.

[koz]

Where and with what do you lube it?

I use Gun Butter (http://www.gunbutter.com/). I put a little bit on the contact points on the slide.

[The Reaper]

Where and with what do you lube it?

I lube it like a 1911, mostly on the rails/rail guides, a little on the barrel-slide contact areas, anywhere there is metal on metal contact.

I like Mil-Tech or TW-25B grease for my guns.

TR

[Ambush Master]

I lube it like a 1911, mostly on the rails/rail guides, a little on the barrel-slide contact areas, anywhere there is metal on metal contact.

I like Mil-Tech or TW-25B grease for my guns.

TR

Mil-Tech, when you heat the parts up, they can be wiped DRY and they are still SLICK!!!

As I've posted previously, apply Mil-Tech and heat up the parts with a Hair-Dryer until they are almost too hot to handle. Let them cool and wipe them DRY!!!

The lubricity that remains is UNBELIEVEABLE!! The stuff molecularly bonds with the surfaces.

IT WORKS!!!!

Later
Martin

[Ken Brock]

Where and with what do you lube it?




.


the most important place to put lube on a Glock is on the connector, where the trigger bar contacts

if you don't put lube anywhere else, put it there

[Red Flag 1]

Bob,

Pretty much as TR said, rails with MILTEC ; NSN 9150-01-415-9112. Also a great lube for inkjet printers. There are Teflon products that work well too.

If you'd like I can hook you up with my brother at the FBI Firearms Training Unit at Quantico...pm me!

RF 1

[craigepo]

Too many lubes being thrown out at one time.

Mil-tech, TW-25B, or Gun Butter.

Anybody able to compare?

[Utah Bob]

My department switched from S&W 686s to Glocks about 1989. I was an instructor and I never liked the looks or feel of the 17. I was also issued a 14 and eventually a 26 for plain clothes wear. Then we switched to 21s and I was happy until I retired.
Felt good, shot good, fed reliably and used the proper 45acp round.

[The Reaper]

Too many lubes being thrown out at one time.

Mil-tech, TW-25B, or Gun Butter.

Anybody able to compare?

Militec-1 is an oil that enters the pores of the metal if properly heated and leaves a lubricating residue or film behind.

TW-25B is a grease. I like grease for the rails and reciprocating parts as it usually sticks better than oil.

I have no experience with Gun Butter.

My experience has been to coat all of the metal surfaces with Militec and heat it up for the bonding. Then I use the TW-25B to lube all of the engagement surfaces.

This technique actually left the Glock slide a bit slippery to manipulate, even after the excess was wiped off. To this day it feels almost like an NP-3 gun to my touch.

HTH.

TR

[BrainStorm]

Two thoughts.

A good friend of mine, Todd Green, has made a business out of sponsored endurance tests. He put over 60,000 rounds through an M&P and over 90,000 rounds through a P30 before failure. Teachers and Students of the Pistol (http://pistol-training.com/)

Any mechanical device is subject to unexpected failure. Whatever you choose, have a plan B for when it does.

[Buffalobob]

Plan B.

[Buffalobob]

I did as I was told and went to the gunshop and they had no gun butter but they had the Militec and the TW 25B so that is what I bought. I also got some better ammo also. I field stripped it and there was hardened grease in the slide rails and after some work with carb cleaner and Gun Scrubber, I got the grease softened up enough to get most of it out. Then I coated it with the Militec and used a heat gun on it. Then I lubed the rails and called it good.

The empty PMC brass was loaded back up with max (not +P) loads of HS6 and Power Pistol and Hornady 90 and 115 gr XTP.

Took the pistol back to the range and it was just a different gun all together. There was almost no recoil and very little right twist any more. Everything feed perfectly without a single stoppage. The funny thing is that the 124 Golden Saber +P had less muzzle movement than the PMC ammo had the first time around.

The whole issues seems to have been the hardened factory grease and once that was gone it was really smooth and pleasant.

[CHRISTIN]

G L O C K ... (imho), your best choice for reliability and function. In Bagdad, I carried a G19 in a Fobus rig, and I'm sure there are many of you out there that chose the same sidearm / holster combo... you can't beat perfection.

[frostfire]

the most important place to put lube on a Glock is on the connector, where the trigger bar contacts

if you don't put lube anywhere else, put it there

I wasn't sure where this is. For those in the same boat:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Glock%20pics/DSC07117.jpg

Come to think of it, that part came from the factory with significant amount of copper lubricant just like on the rails. One of these days, I'll take the armorer course.

[dr. mabuse]

*

[Ken Brock]

I wasn't sure where this is. For those in the same boat:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Glock%20pics/DSC07117.jpg

Come to think of it, that part came from the factory with significant amount of copper lubricant just like on the rails. One of these days, I'll take the armorer course.

the Armorer's course

6 hours of how great Gaston Glock is and 2 hours of actually working on guns :D

that's partly a joke, but there's a little truth there too

the Armorer's course is pretty interesting

[fatleg]

Plan B.

What vintage is your Gerber?

[Buffalobob]

The Gerber was purchased in 1969 most likely at Ranger Joe's at Ft Benning. It went with me to RVN and never ever saw the top a a C-ration. I carried a M-16 bayonet as a work knife and it was one of the most worthless pieces of steel ever invented. Now the old M-1 bayonet which was about four feet long and could reach out there and gouge somebody at a respectable distance was a fine piece of hardware except for the rifle it was attached to was a little on the heavy side and slow on the cyclic rate. :D

[Juliet Delta]

The most important aspect of lubrication is having it in the first place.

I've been using 20w motor oil for a year or better now, and it's doing everything I want it to.

Hackathorn told us how he has been using 5w synthetic for years now, too.

I've used pretty much everything other than TW25B, but I still haven't found a reason to stop using synthetic motor oil, yet.

[Boomer-61]

Reaper,
How long and at what temp do you heat the parts for lubrication with the Militec-1?
Boomer

[Buffalobob]

The instructions are on the bottle. It says to heat to "operating temperature" by either firing or a heat gun and then wipe dry. I assumed operating temperature was somewhere less than glowing redhot. ;) So I heated it to mild warm with a heat gun and wiped it dry enough that it wouldn't attract dust.

[lonewolf726]

I use the same Mobile ! synthetic oil that I use in my vehicles on my weapons, and TW25-B on the parts where grease is better than oil. Never had a problem.

[Boomer-61]

Thank you for that clarification Buffalobob.

[Buffalobob]

(Note to the readers—This post is tied to this thread
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7477
but I did not want to put it on that thread for fear someone would know even less than me and believe I was showing how to do things correctly) :D

I have decided to try my hand at shooting pistol competition of one form or another. So I looked up on the internet (which we know is populated extensively with intelligent people) some recommended loads that would make the power factor for a 9mm. It seemed like most everyone was using Titegroup and the cheapest bullets they could find in 124 grains and stuffing it in the cheapest assortment of brass they could scavenge. I loaded up some mixed brass with Titegroup and Speer 124 plinkers. Once the snow was supposedly gone from the back roads I headed to the range. I carried along some max load 115 Gold Cup HPs and some max load Lapua 123 RNs which I know have reasonable accuracy.

Having read some portions of the Army pistol marksmanship manual and looked at the picture of TS’s recommended grip, I decided to video my shooting style to see if it would provide me any insights to errors. One of the important things to know is that TS doesn’t shoot a glock!!! Right where he puts his weak side thumb is the Glock take down detent button. The first shot one notices that the detent button has sharp edges and the second shot one notices that they actually hurt and that shooting still again does not make it any less painful. Unfortunately, the Glock is recessed right there and the thumb really likes to slide up into that recess. I found that to be highly humorous. In the first video one will notice that on shot #7, I anticipate the shot and flinch. You will also notice I keep changing the weak side grip as I never get it the way that feels secure, and I am practicing for scuba diving as I never take a breath.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/6/c1ErxdrhuWs

After a few videos of me, I move the camera to the target and began shooting different loads. Up first is the supposedly great IDPA load with the 124 Speer RN and Titegroup. Distance is exactly 20 yards and the tape is 1.5 inch painters tape. The bottom group was the same load. Both are shot freehand.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/4/cupNECVSdBo

I am not happy with the groups from the 124 so I decide to shoot some 115s which I know produce decent accuracy and are what I keep in the mags when the pistol is at home.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/3/xhdTDvWx-Jk

I decide to try the 115s with my hands rested on the bench to see what the difference in groups size is from unsupported

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/2/v3vQuA7OlcI


The load I keep in the gun for black bears when elk hunting is 123 gr lapuas at +P. So I decide to try it unsupported. It shoots so well that I believe it is just luck and shoot a second mag to see if it is repeatable. Morale of the story is you don’t want to be a bear and try to steal my elk. One bullet gets away from me when I do not relax the trigger very far and have started the squeeze before the sight picture is fully restored or vice versa.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/1/Lu2tPyHNuLQ

Being as I am now having a good time and the gun is hitting what I am shooting at; I try the 123 Lapuas with my hands rested on the bench. Watch the left to right three shot pattern repeat itself. I wonder if I am resetting my grip every three rounds or just decide to come up for air.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/0/ws_Y5afvgo4


So after spending a lot of time researching good IDPA loads I find that I already had a good load. Unfortunately the Lapua bullets are expensive IIRC.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

I like your plan B. That MK-II is just awesome.

Plan B.

[Menschenschreck]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

If a decision has not been made on the type of handgun to buy, I have personally had a very favorable experience with the HK P30. They just won't die.

[Dusty]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

If a decision has not been made on the type of handgun to buy, I have personally had a very favorable experience with the HK P30. They just won't die.

The example in your link did.

[aaronw]

I have a Glock 17 that I bought, installed a target trigger, lubed, and took directly to a tactical class.

I put more than 5,000 rounds of Remington yellow box ammo through it with zero malfunctions.

TR

I have had zero issues with mine either. I wipe it down every 1000 or so rounds with militech. Not out of lazyness, but as a deliberate decision. Thats firing army ammo thats got that wierd granular shit in the powder. So it can get pretty funky. Before I get scolded - I'm more deliberate about it when it matters.

Only issue I've ever seen with a glock, was on my own 21SF. When I dissassembled it I saw the (stock captured) recoil spring assembly had slipped just off the half moon recess on the barrel lug. I thought I might have just bumped it during dissassembly so I fired again and I partyly replicated the problem, but it didnt slip completely out this time. I'm pretty fanatical about my glocks so I was a bit bent about it. In the end it didnt really matter because I always replace em with a non captured rod and spring since I see that new assembly theyre putting on the new glocks as the only potential weak link on the gun. That being said it still never jammed or failed to fire.

At home I have a 19 17 26 and 21SF. Huge Glock fan. Very reliable and accurate. I'll get a 34 soon. I hope you end up being happy with your purchase. If not I'm sure youll be able to sell it without much of a loss

[Skywatch]

I did as I was told and went to the gunshop and they had no gun butter but they had the Militec and the TW 25B so that is what I bought. I also got some better ammo also. I field stripped it and there was hardened grease in the slide rails and after some work with carb cleaner and Gun Scrubber, I got the grease softened up enough to get most of it out. Then I coated it with the Militec and used a heat gun on it. Then I lubed the rails and called it good.

The empty PMC brass was loaded back up with max (not +P) loads of HS6 and Power Pistol and Hornady 90 and 115 gr XTP.

Took the pistol back to the range and it was just a different gun all together. There was almost no recoil and very little right twist any more. Everything feed perfectly without a single stoppage. The funny thing is that the 124 Golden Saber +P had less muzzle movement than the PMC ammo had the first time around.

The whole issues seems to have been the hardened factory grease and once that was gone it was really smooth and pleasant.

BuffaloBob,

In addition to the viscous Glock factory grease, the lightening cuts on the G34 slide allow for a slightly lower 'margin of error' with regards to cycling due to chamber pressure, obstructive fouling, infirm posture or grip, etc...

While shooting IDPA, I've seen various Glock 34's choke during courses of fire that required shooting using support side hand only, using lower quality ammunition with a less effective powder burn (Wolf, which the 17/19 seem to have no trouble with).

Also, the tendency continues if you try and suppress the pistol. A friend and I tested a Suppressor Package (AAC Evo 9mm (http://www.advanced-armament.com/product.aspx?pid=199)) on a Glock 34, and it had continual problems cycling, leading to more evidence that the slide lightening changes the feeding characteristics. The suppressor in question has a built in Nielson, which compensates for the diminished recoil by adding back-pressure specifically to help the weapon cycle.

The longer barrel also tends to send 147gr 9mm's supersonic in addition to the issue of decreased reliability.

Just a few things to consider that I hadn't seen mentioned... Hopefully it'll be of use to others considering the G34.

Cheers,

Aaron

[aaronw]

BuffaloBob,

the lightening cuts on the G34 slide allow for a slightly lower 'margin of error' with regards to cycling due to chamber pressure, obstructive fouling, infirm posture or grip, etc...

Cheers,

Aaron

Can you go into this in more detail? I understand the individual issues mentioned, but having trouble grasping why it is more of an issue on the 34. Despite the longer barrel, isnt the weight center/balance of the pistol the same as the 17? Hence the decision to lighten the front of the slide???

Dont own one, dont have any experience with one, but probably will buy one soon... Hence my curiosity on the subject..

[Skywatch]

Can you go into this in more detail? I understand the individual issues mentioned, but having trouble grasping why it is more of an issue on the 34. Despite the longer barrel, isnt the weight center/balance of the pistol the same as the 17? Hence the decision to lighten the front of the slide???

Dont own one, dont have any experience with one, but probably will buy one soon... Hence my curiosity on the subject..

Sir,

They have different weights, but check out the difference between the 19/17 and the 17/34, and barrel lengths:
G19 Weight: 20.99 BBL: 4.02
G17 Weight: 22.04 BBL: 4.49
G34 Weight: 22.92 BBL: 5.32"
Source: http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm (http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm)

The 19/17 BBL difference is WT: 1.05oz BBL: .47".
The 17/34 BBL difference is WT: 0.88oz BBL: .83".

You can see right off the bat that the weight to length ratio isn't commensurate between the 3 models. This disparity means that for a longer overall barrel in the G34, you're actually getting about 4/5 of the weight increase - Basically, Glock reached a barrel length/weight ratio that made the gun "Nose heavy", and compromised a bit of its reliability. The result was the G17L - which became the G34, with the lightening cuts.

This is about where my understanding/information of the physics ends - I can't tell you what effect recoil spring weight or specific loads (and their corresponding Force) have on balancing this out, or where the line of diminished returns is with regards to ammo.

What I'm getting at is that there is an empirical link between the deviation of the ratios and the reliability; IE, the G19/17 do not suffer from suppression or ammunition variation while the G34 does.

Just did a quick search, and with some more data, this might be useful:
http://www.bsharp.org/physics/recoil

Cheers,

Aaron

[Menschenschreck]

The example in your link did.

I posted that entry to demonstrate that even with mechanical parts deterioration, the design of the pistol still allows it to function. I've been around a lot of handguns that have reacted to broken parts by becoming completely nonfunctional, but I have never seen a P30 cease to function. This has just been my observation.

[frostfire]

Having read some portions of the Army pistol marksmanship manual and looked at the picture of TS’s recommended grip, I decided to video my shooting style to see if it would provide me any insights to errors. One of the important things to know is that TS doesn’t shoot a glock!!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/6/c1ErxdrhuWs

After a few videos of me, I move the camera to the target and began shooting different loads. Up first is the supposedly great IDPA load with the 124 Speer RN and Titegroup. Distance is exactly 20 yards and the tape is 1.5 inch painters tape. The bottom group was the same load. Both are shot freehand.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/4/cupNECVSdBo


Buffalobob, just quick observation. Your grip is not exactly as what TS demonstrated. Make sure the supporting hand is as high as possible to the point that the wrist is bent like when throwing a fish lure, and the supporting hand's index finger further forward under the trigger guard. Between the 1st and 2nd video I could see your supporting hand's pinky slipping. A picture is worth a thousand words and a video is probably more, so here's one to illustrate what I meant. It's not focused on grip, but watch how he forms his grip and stance....and yes, he's shooting a stock glock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d2VdaiIodo

I was once a non-believer of glock accuracy. It sure is not the most user-friendly accuracy-wise, but it's very much capable. I've finally shot the 17 as well as I shoot the HK P30 @ 25m. Given unlimited $$$, of course I'd still go with the P30:D

[Buffalobob]

Thanks Forstfire for the link. I downloaded the video and am going to print off a picture of the guy's hands and then print off the one of TS. Plus I am going to make a sheet to take with me to the range of what the manual says about grip so I do not have to rely on my memory of how everything is supposed to fit together.

Secondly, I went to my loading manual and reviewed the parameters of the +P bear load that shot well. It was in loaded in +P Rem cases. So I conclude that just like in rifles, case uniformity makes a difference. Damn internet warriors who believe cheap is better than accurate. So I am going to try the Titegroup powder in well sorted uniform cases with several different bullets and see what happens.

[The Reaper]

Thanks Forstfire for the link. I downloaded the video and am going to print off a picture of the guy's hands and then print off the one of TS. Plus I am going to make a sheet to take with me to the range of what the manual says about grip so I do not have to rely on my memory of how everything is supposed to fit together.

Secondly, I went to my loading manual and reviewed the parameters of the +P bear load that shot well. It was in loaded in +P Rem cases. So I conclude that just like in rifles, case uniformity makes a difference. Damn internet warriors who believe cheap is better than accurate. So I am going to try the Titegroup powder in well sorted uniform cases with several different bullets and see what happens.

BB:

What do bears weigh where you hunt?

If you would not trust a 5.56 on them, I would not be using a 9x19 either.

TR

[Buffalobob]

The original primary purpose of the Glock was home defense. I already have a 460 S&W which has the same case capacity for powder as a 308. The problem with the 460 is it has a brake on it so you have to wear ear muffs to shoot it and it weighs about 5 pounds without a holster. With holster, earmuffs and ammo you are looking at 6 pounds or so of weight. I used it one year and found the need for earmuffs to be very slow and cumbersome in the dark and when going to pack out an elk it is a lot of weight to carry. I could order a closed muzzle extension to replace the brake but it seems like a lot of trouble.

I am a big fan of the 5.56 with FMJs but the DC regs prohibit owning any rifle or shotgun with a pistol grip or otherwise looking like an assault rifle. So it is not an option for me.

I would certainly not actively hunt black bears with a 9mm and if I was buying a pistol specifically for general carry in black bear country I wold probably go to a 10 mm. Certainly a 9mm is underpowered for a bear by any measure, but it is what I have and it is OK for sleeping in the tent at night and for the one day or so that it takes to pack out an elk.

Here is a video of what it looks like to pack out an elk by your self.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/u/9/7f37MdaTxA0

Whether or not I would actually shoot a bear for eating my elk is questionable being as I do my best to give the meat away anyway and the bear would be saving me from having to pack it out. :D.


P.S.

One of the interesting pieces of trivia in my life is that Utah prohibits any firearms in your camp while archery hunting UNLESS you have a concealed carry permit. So I actually have a concealed carry permit for Utah just so I can have my guns with me.

[Buffalobob]

A couple of observations at this point in time. The Glock 34 definitely likes full power loads and does not like light loads at all. I conclude that the earlier comments about the light slide are correct.

I am currently shooting 123 gr Lapua round noses and HS-6 w/ Fed primers.

I have now shot two two IPSC matches, one IDPA match and one Bullseye match. They DNF'd me on the Bullseye match because I did not have a 45 cal handgun. Didn't matter about being DNF'd being as I was happy not to be DQ'd for shooting a target when I was supposed to hold fire. I do not understand some of the stuff in Bullseye - I mean why would you say "make the line safe" and then rotate the targets to be shot. Nonetheless, the lesson to be learned was to always have a spare battery for your ear muffs so you can hear the commands.


Pistol competition is habit forming and there should be a surgeon generals or federal reserve warning on competition pistols. :D

[HOLLiS]

A couple of observations at this point in time. The Glock 34 definitely likes full power loads and does not like light loads at all. I conclude that the earlier comments about the light slide are correct.




Bob, have you tried a reduce recoil spring?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Just read this thread again and trying to figure out how TS managed to keep quiet through the whole thing . . . :munchin

I am no expert, but I much prefer my H&Ks (Compact .40 and full-size .45) to my Glock 17.

[Dusty]

Just read this thread again and trying to figure out how TS managed to keep quiet through the whole thing . . . :munchin

I am no expert, but I much prefer my H&Ks (Compact .40 and full-size .45) to my Glock 17.

That's funny-you sound like an expert. ;)

[Drusagas]

Went from an XD9 to an HK USP 9 back to an XDm 9. Probably just me and the way I shoot, fit of my hand, amount of use, etc. but the XD/XDm series fit me a lot better, never had any problems with them and probably wont carry any other outside my Kimber 1911. But that's a whole 'nother animal altogether :p So, big vote for the Springfield XD series from me.

[Buffalobob]

Bob, have you tried a reduce recoil spring?

I was just experimenting around with seating depth and crimp and wound up with low pressure and the gun would not cycle. So I just shoot max pressure loads. The max pressure loads are some disadvantage in some types of competition but I don't mind being as I am in no way ever going to be good enough with a pistol to win anyway.

[HOLLiS]

I was just experimenting around with seating depth and crimp and wound up with low pressure and the gun would not cycle. So I just shoot max pressure loads. The max pressure loads are some disadvantage in some types of competition but I don't mind being as I am in no way ever going to be good enough with a pistol to win anyway.

Not sure if you can measure your spring, but check out Brownells on springs. Light loads needs a lighter recoil spring. Too light of a spring, then your receiver and slide will collide, a recoil buffer is a good option. Also too light of a spring could prevent chambering.

I have done some competitions, a faster recovery helps. Also depending on the competition, wheel guns have a advantage with light loads, as long as they are not too light. (can cause excessive chamber pressure if the powder load is too light, or fillers not used.)

I liked Cowboy actions shooting, because like you, I'll never be fast enough and I shoot for the fun. He with the biggest grin wins.

[frostfire]

Pistol competition is habit forming and there should be a surgeon generals or federal reserve warning on competition pistols. :D


I'm still trying to find an antidote. Alas, rifle competition did not replace but not only augments the habit, now it's 2 platforms, then comes the shotgun....then the long range...:boohoo :D

[PRB]

+2 for the Springfield XD. Have put a few thousand rounds of 9mm of all types, +P, frangible, hollow pts,FMJ, cheap Russian and High velocity good stuff and never a failure to feed or extract. Very Accurate and I like the glock like trigger with the 1911 A1 grip safety combo...no accidental trigger hang up glock discharges.
Guys swear by both, try them both...Sig is excellent to just comes down to druthers.

[Ambush Master]

A couple of observations at this point in time. The Glock 34 definitely likes full power loads and does not like light loads at all. I conclude that the earlier comments about the light slide are correct.
:D

Bob,
Get a Calibration Spring Kit. Go here: http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=5#117

With these, you load up the "Light Load" that you like and start with the strongest spring. Simply keep dropping the spring strength until the weapon cycles reliably!! I've used these for years!!

Later
Martin

[gits]

I've been running an HK45C for EDC, I've ran about 3500-4000 rounds through it and have yet to run into a single malfunction. Gun shoots pretty tight probably the only gun I've had that I've been able to shoot at 25 meters at a 6 inch Shoot N C and have all my rounds group. You can't go with an HK, they practically eat up any type of ammo you can throw through it. No need to buy additional parts to enhance a pistol, HK's are reliable right out of the box.

[Buffalobob]

Bob,
Get a Calibration Spring Kit. Go here: http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?...ID=1&mID=5#117

With these, you load up the "Light Load" that you like and start with the strongest spring. Simply keep dropping the spring strength until the weapon cycles reliably!! I've used these for years!!


I took your and Hollis' advice and ordered both extra power and reduced power sets, plus a steel guide rod.

[MVP]

I don't like plastic or aluminum framed pistols. Less than favorable impressions of the following I have owned over the years: SW M39 and M59, HK P9S/VP70Z/USP Tactical, Glock 26. Shot a bunch of other Glocks as well and none inspired me to buy another. FWIW all of the aforementioned are sold save the USP and I only keep it because it is an "accountable gift".

IMHO:

Glocks have not really advanced since they came on the scene 35 years ago. I first handled one in Norway in 1985 when the Norwegians were having magazine troubles. I like the analogy of them being the AK47 of pistols.
XDs are basically product improved glocks and I have relatives in the city where they are made. Have a good rep and when I have some money I absolutely must spend immediately I will consider one, mostly so my kids can say "this was made where..."

Personally I carry a old T-series BHP without a mag safety, tuned trigger, Trijicons, and Navidrex thin grips. Shoots damn near everything to include hydrashoks. There used to be a saying about AKs and FN FALs that went something like this: AKs are for the masses and FNs are for the Classes. I consider the BHP to be well above a Glock (AK). The FN may need a little tuning but it is a much higher class of ordnance.

Dickering on an older SS Detonics right now for CC.

For the house I bought an older 870 listed in the thrifty nickel. Wacked the barrel to 18.5 inches and then reinstalled the bead sight. Racking the action makes a nice loud sound in a dark and quiet house at night. I don't use anything larger than 7.5 shot and prefer 9s hoping to reduce over penetration. Fortunately the house is large and occupied areas (bedrooms) are well separated.

[Buffalobob]

I had a BHP long ago and it got stolen in Utah while the house was up for sale and on a lock box. I liked it a lot.

[SFC Donnell]

First I must qualify that I am a big 1911 fan however single action anything revolver or auto have a severe problem in court, the act of cocking or chambering a round has been used against the victim as proof that the shooting was somehow NOT SELF DEFENSE. A Glock is (in court) more like a double action in that you only pull the trigger. I got this from my CCL instructor.

IMVHO I would buy and carry a Glock and fix the spring/ammo issue, once I got my M-1911A1 spring issues fixed she will digest any ammo I feed her, but I carry a mid sized Glock in 9mm with whatever the hot 9mm round is this week with the local Police Dept. (After shooting a box to be sure that there are no ammo malfunctions.)

If the badguy's lawyer attempts to go down the "Evil Plastic Gun" road I can just say: "Hey that is what the Police use" which shuts down that argument.

On the battlefield you can get away with murder, in civilian courts self defense is no excuse.

[PRB]

First I must qualify that I am a big 1911 fan however single action anything revolver or auto have a severe problem in court, the act of cocking or chambering a round has been used against the victim as proof that the shooting was somehow NOT SELF DEFENSE. A Glock is (in court) more like a double action in that you only pull the trigger. I got this from my CCL instructor.

IMVHO I would buy and carry a Glock and fix the spring/ammo issue, once I got my M-1911A1 spring issues fixed she will digest any ammo I feed her, but I carry a mid sized Glock in 9mm with whatever the hot 9mm round is this week with the local Police Dept. (After shooting a box to be sure that there are no ammo malfunctions.)

If the badguy's lawyer attempts to go down the "Evil Plastic Gun" road I can just say: "Hey that is what the Police use" which shuts down that argument.

On the battlefield you can get away with murder, in civilian courts self defense is no excuse.


Interesting points but the object of a gun fight is to survive and I'd choose what best suited that over what came later.
BTW, I've never murdered anyone on a battlefield. I know you are just making a point but you might want to choose dif wording. You can't murder a combatant in civilian terms as he/she chose his/her status like we did, liberal assholes love to quote stuff like that. Just a friendly request.

[wet dog]

You can carry a 1911 A1 in three different levels.

1: Loaded, not chambered, hammer down.

2. Loaded, chambered, hammer down.

3. Loaded, chambered, hammer back, safety on. Anything else is not safe.

Drawing a weapon, moving your hands to the clap at "3", using the thumb to dis-engage the weapons safety while placing hand together is still the preferred meathod, position "4", Fire.

The weapon can be fired with one hand, between "2" and '3", target not acquired, but pointing in the right direction, still makes a big hole in a bad guy.

Shoulder harness, (weapon under-arm pointing back), does not carry well, with hammer back, safety on. That's whay "Miami Vice" Sonny always armed his weapon before he entered a room, (but it made for great TV action). When carried on hip, weapon armed, with safety on, allowed for weapon to be carried "in the ready", or "Condition 1".

Not a big fan of Glocks, can not release hammer in safe manner.

I'll take a .45 ACP in Colt, Kimber, or Springfield anyday.

FYI - bullet two follows bullet one in same hole. Bullet three is off just slightly, but you'd need a mircometer to read the difference, but that's just me.

[Buffalobob]

I took out the stock captive spring and put in the Wolf 17# (factory) and went and shot an IDPA comp and it worked just fine. I will say that I got a lot of exercise putting in the Wolf spring, running around all over the den looking for where it went to when it SPROINGED out of my hand several times. Captive springs is a really good idea.

So I ordered 5 boxes of Serra itsy tennsy weennsy 90 grain JHPs and loaded them up at the minimum load in the Sierra manual , which is 1100 fps, and went off to the range today. Of course they would not cycle with the 17# spring but 48 in a row cycled with the 14# spring. The cases only get thrown about 6 inches so I suspect when cold weather gets here that the 14# spring will not cycle them, if the bullets are cold. But the kit came with a 12# spring so I'm GTG.

The interesting thing was that with really low loads and light recoil you could see the affects of improper grip pressure on the pistol by where the bullet would strike on the target. If your left thumb puts too much pressure on the frame the bullet strikes to the right and if you grip wrong with your right hand you pull the bullet left.

I also tested out some military brass that I had removed the crimp from and loaded up to +P and it all cycled well with the 17# spring. I would say that in some other thread somebody, perhaps Longrange, said that removing the crimp from brass is just not worth the trouble and that is just about the honest gospel truth - you only save pennies and it is a real pain in the fourth point of contact.

Funny thing of interest to anybody local, is that the only other person at the range was a guy from Bethesda. He was a doc from a local hospital who wanted to practice shooting his 375 Mag from shooting sticks for his upcoming trip to South Africa. The Green Ridge range, which is an hour and a half drive from DC, is about the only place without a range safety officer where you can practice fast draws and lateral movements and as long as everyone is aware you can actually get in front of the firing line and shoot in the dirt. He and I had a good time breaking all of the range safety rules.

[Buffalobob]

It was archery season in Utah and after lunch I was sitting around camp really bored when all of the sudden I was attacked by a large grove of aspens. Fortunately, I had my G34 handy and a couple of magazines of different bullets. So after all the powder smoke cleared I went and inspected the damage.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/69cc3igN7OU

[Baht Dog]

I own the Glock 23 Gen 4 in .40 cal. The Gen 4 in addition to back strap-changeable feature to help dial in the grip better, also has dual captivated recoil spring which helps a bit with the slightly more snappy recoil of the high pressure .40 round. Glocks are among the most, if not the most, widely issued and carried by LEO's today.


Nothing wrong with a Glock. Really nothing I can see terribly wrong with any of them.


I also own the XD in a .40 and shoot the crap out of it. It has tritium Tru-Glo's which I like a lot both day and night and they are reasonably priced. Also featured are a REALLY bright tac light and count 'em, two lasers. One green and one red. Naturally green works both in daylight and limited viz. Red primarily for limited viz. Yeah, it's a real Christmas tree effect around my place....:rolleyes: This set up, intended primarily for interior home defensive situations, sits on my night stand and is one of my main home defense guns. There's also a Glock with a similar set up.


Why two lasers? Redundancy and my near sight vision has gotten bad enough now to where I really need glasses to get a good sight picture.


If I wake up suddenly... forget it.... it takes time for my bleary eyes to focus as well as they are going to and that's not good enough to get a sharp sight picture without the glasses.


Some people hate anything on their gun and want it clean. I shoot with everything on it and train that way.


Of course if all else fails, (you can't count on anything with batteries) I'm still an on-target instinctive shooter at home interior engagement ranges.


I don't want to be fumbling for glasses and trying to load mags (that's why my guns stay loaded) if a couple of meth-heads just smashed their way in for a home invasion. Ergo the lasers are my "Disability Rapid Sighting Devices". I am going to look into Lasik to see if it can be done for my particular issue, but I don't know if they can do it for near distance sight correction.


The good part is, not only have the Castle Doctrine laws recently been greatly strengthened in my state, I also live in a redneck county where the juries just about hand out medals to people who successfully defend themselves via their 2nd Amendment rights :D


Next to the XD is a legally converted (back to original AK configuration) Saiga 12 with a 12 round stick mag, collapsible stock, Bubbed up nicely and loaded with a mix of 00, and #4. Spiky wicked breaching brake and rails makes it "look" extra scary. Drum mags are in the safe but I don't anticipate needing one for this application. I own three of those S-12's in my collection. It goes without saying that spare mags are ready and available for all weapons in my particular set up. In the end, strip it all the "scary looking stuff" off and it's still at heart just a very reliable semi-automatic shotgun that racks a round into the chamber just as loud as a pump gun. I don't bother with racking, it stays fully loaded.



I also have a Kahr in PM9 9mm compact with Crimson Trace laser and Tritium sights. It is very lightweight, and has a nice balance. You will likely want the mag-extension if you considered one.


For general shot placement sufficiantly in the KZ, not talking competition shooting, I generally subscribe more to marksmanship fundamentals applied across a broad spectrum of brands and configurations, rather than major differences in accuracy with various handguns... (I know, some will beg to differ)...Ford & Chevy argument....


But with slow, aimed fire, I have hit pretty consistently in the kill zone at 40 yards with the aforementioned little 'ol Kahr. Considering the barrel is just under 3 inches, it might speak to some accuracy differences of the design of this particular weapon which gives me pause to give at least some weighting to design differences and any real accuracy gains over the skills of the individual shooter.


Walthers, Rugers etc. etc. All good. In my book, in the end it generally comes down to the Operator of the particular weapon - all things being equal and assuming you don't have a TOTAL piece of junk handgun that you are counting on and it's mechanically sound.


Bob, I am assuming that you have children in the house or other reasons to not want a loaded weapon on standby. Not even a mag in the weapon as you describe.


For sure, to each their own and to each their own comfort level and your personal reasons are just as valid as others who may may differ.


I'm the opposite, no children in the house, no crazy people...:D... and my guns all stay loaded with a round in the chamber. Of course I perform the proper periodic spring and mag maintenance and replace them as required.


That's obviously not suitable for every household situation but plenty of my friends and associates do or have done likewise.


I even known some people, husband and wife as a matter of fact, hubby was SF and his wife was a lawyer - that carry on their hip or shoulder around their house at all times. They for some dumb reason bought a nice big old house in a bad neighborhood. But nobody ever screwed with them. Hi Dave, if you're reading this.


I took my CCW permit course taught by a State Trooper buddy of mine. His whole thing is this: "If you pass the background check, fingerprints and all, and it usually takes about 3 months, then you are "Part Of The Club".


He is totally pro-gun and considers those who legally carry CCW to be part of an "elite" group of citizens and professionals. I think that's a bit of a stretch having seen some of these yokels that shouldn't even own a gun - but I won't discourage his take on it.


Therefore, when he pulls someone over, he already knows if you have a CCW just by running the plates, and that's why he tells you to have your license and CCW permit in your hand with both hands on the wheel when pulled over. Oh, and turn the dome light on at night he says. "Criminals do not do that" in his experience as a Trooper.

What's different about this particular LEO is that he will give a mild "lecture" to those who are NOT, repeat NOT carrying if they have a CCW! Along the lines of "What good is it having the CCW if you are not going to carry religiously?" I guess since he has to lug around a gun all the time he wants to share the misery. :D How cool of a cop is that?


His take on it is, someday he might need you, me or another citizen to help him out, back him up or save HIS life! But anyway, I'm getting off topic here with the bit on CCW.


Regular Guy Said:

"Sir,
I +1 everyone on the Glock, I love them. But that H&K is the Lexus of handguns IMHO. I own the same one, just in the .45 version. The smoothest firing .45 I have ever owned, so I would imagine the same or better for a 9 MM. Pretty pricey though,"


Sounds nice. I am very interested in the H&K and have read some pretty good things about it including the smoothness of firing especially in the .45. I need to try one out and if I like it then it will be my next handgun and in a .45

[dollarbill]

I have to agree with you Baht Dog. XD-40 is one of the best shooting handguns I've owned. As far as the H&K goes, that was the first handguns I bought (many, many years ago). It was a 22 Mag nice shootiing not sure why I got rid of it.

[Baht Dog]

I would say Thanks, to everyone for their advice. It seems that a Glock or Springfield XD is going to be a good choice. I really did not know Springfield had such a good reputation.

The Glock 34 has about one inch more of barrel than the Glock 17 which will be helpful for an amateur like me if I put Trijcon sights on it. Also if I ever decide to shoot three gun competition then I have something to play with.

I will go and handle the Glock and XD and see how they feel being as the gun has to point correctly for me or else it is worthless.

If y'all wish to have fun debating caliber you are free to continue that, but I am not into that. I have a S&W 460 for protection in grizzly bear country so I know what stopping power means. For home use, I could go up to a .40 cal and load it light but then I would have to worry about spring rates etc. so it is best for me to just go with the 9mm which is what I can manage accurately.

As afar as shotguns go, I have a lot of them but either it has too be already loaded or you have to fumble around with shells in the dark. I do not wish to have a loaded gun in my home. The whole object here is to have the minimum activity necessary to be fully armed.

Appreciate the information and the best thing is that it comes from people who actually know.


Actually, and I know some people will want to argue this, there are some fairly close similarities in the ballistics performance between the .40 & 45.
Note I didn't say they were exact, but not MASSIVELY different. At least the data I have compared.


But I'm not going to argue against the Cult of The Forty Five (CFF), So, "OK, you CFF guys win.... .45 is the best!" :D I love 'em too, except for the fact that they unjustifiably over-price the ammo IMO. For those of us that don't get supplied by Uncle Sugar anymore. Just my .02 cents.

Then there are mag capacity differences between .40 & .45 to weigh in the balance. Some consider the .40 a good compromise of factors. Some say screw anything but a .45 and use phrases like "Real Men Shoot Point Four Five" or "If you need more than X number of rounds, you shouldn't own a gun!," Stuff like that. There is no doubt of the .45's knock down power.

Some maintain there is nothing better than a 12 gauge for home defense.

Regardless, no "round" will keep anyone "safe" in a gunfight. .357 mag is nothing to sneeze at and has seriously effective "knock down" power-wise. .44 Mag is pretty devastating, etc. the list goes on.

When I was a lad I watched a neighbor die from his own careless handling of a .22 pistol. Manged to shoot himself through the heart.

[dollarbill]

I've had both for years and generaly shot and carry the XD40 more than the Glock. The only thing I don't care much for on the XD, is putting the last two rounds in the mag. It can be a chore without the assist. Personnally I think the xd is more accuate and esaier to strip and clean.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

I see no mention of the 'Judge' revolver which would take into account .45 and .410 Shotgun rounds.

It's hard to beat a shotgun for home defense, That said I'd go for both the 870 12 GA and the Glock 23 or 22.

[Baht Dog]

I've had both for years and generaly shot and carry the XD40 more than the Glock. The only thing I don't care much for on the XD, is putting the last two rounds in the mag. It can be a chore without the assist. Personnally I think the xd is more accuate and esaier to strip and clean.

Here ya go. Try a Lula loader. Highly recommended. I have them for both my carbines & rifles in various calibers as well as pistols. They work like a champ.

http://www.maglula.com/

[dollarbill]

Checked out the site, thanks. The XD does come with a mag loader that looks simular to the Lula. It does make it alot easier. The proplem I run into is on the range we have a 5 mag rapid shoot. Shoot 3 mags, relaod 2 and continue. During this phase, loading assist is not allowed.

[Baht Dog]

Checked out the site, thanks. The XD does come with a mag loader that looks simular to the Lula. It does make it alot easier. The proplem I run into is on the range we have a 5 mag rapid shoot. Shoot 3 mags, relaod 2 and continue. During this phase, loading assist is not allowed.


Well now, that just sucks, doesn't it!? Won't allow a useful tool eh? Nazis! :( :cool: Still, the Lula works a lot better than the stock XD loader BUT, the Lula is more expensive at around $30 bucks by the time you figure in shipping. You might be able to find one in the mid-20s.

[Oldrotorhead]

It was archery season in Utah and after lunch I was sitting around camp really bored when all of the sudden I was attacked by a large grove of aspens. Fortunately, I had my G34 handy and a couple of magazines of different bullets. So after all the powder smoke cleared I went and inspected the damage.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/69cc3igN7OU

I really like serious scientific tests. Now murdering trees? Wait till the tree huggers find this fine scientist.:D:

[spherojon]

Any thoughts on the CZ-USA 75B? Comes in 9MM and .40 S&W with an available .22 conversion kit. I haven't seen any negative reviews of the gun on my google-fu, so I thought I would go to the professionals.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/by-category/handguns/

[Lthrnck1775]

... I am also considering new personal defense and carry pistols. I like the Walther PPS for its slim width and decent grip on a compact - but no range here (VA Beach) has a PPS to rent. Its also $$$... so was wondering if anyone has any input from their experience on the PPS?

My backup or pocket gun looks like a Ruger LCP .380 (9mm Kurtz) - easier to control too in a tiny frame gun. The LC9 (9mm) sucked to shoot.

[Dusty]

... I am also considering new personal defense and carry pistols. I like the Walther PPS for its slim width and decent grip on a compact - but no range here (VA Beach) has a PPS to rent. Its also $$$... so was wondering if anyone has any input from their experience on the PPS?

My backup or pocket gun looks like a Ruger LCP .380 (9mm Kurtz) - easier to control too in a tiny frame gun. The LC9 (9mm) sucked to shoot.

"The LC9 sucked to shoot."

Sucked how? My wife can hit the target with hers...:munchin

[The Reaper]

... I am also considering new personal defense and carry pistols. I like the Walther PPS for its slim width and decent grip on a compact - but no range here (VA Beach) has a PPS to rent. Its also $$$... so was wondering if anyone has any input from their experience on the PPS?

My backup or pocket gun looks like a Ruger LCP .380 (9mm Kurtz) - easier to control too in a tiny frame gun. The LC9 (9mm) sucked to shoot.

The PPK/S is a large pistol for its caliber and capacity. IMHO, there are several better choices today. Unless you just want to play James Bond.

Any thoughts on the CZ-USA 75B? Comes in 9MM and .40 S&W with an available .22 conversion kit. I haven't seen any negative reviews of the gun on my google-fu, so I thought I would go to the professionals.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/by-category/handguns/


The CZ75 is a great pistol, but is is not particularly compact.

TR

[tom kelly]

The more mechanical parts in anything the more of a chance that something will fail. The firearm is a tool and the thing you must first determine is " What do I want the firearm to do?" Self-Defense, Home Defense, concealed carry, hunting, target shooting, collection item or "plinking" If you are not 100% totally committed to learning and instruction and 110% committed to practice each and every day( firing a weapon at a target you intend to hit is a perishable skill that needs constant practice and attention to detail) Back to reliability, get a 4 inch Smith & Wesson J frame revolver,send it to the S&W Performance Center and get The Master Revolver Action Package that is offered as a gunsmithing service. This upgrade and enhancement should solve 99.9% of your reliability concerns. Just my .02...Regard's, TK

[AustinT]

I had a Lama .380 that would stovepipe with every mag. Never found a way to stop it. Bought a Glock 19, end of problem; I've used it since 1993 with never an issue.

My brother is a firearms instructor at the FBI Firearms Training Unit, Quantico. His suggestion was the Remington Model 870. They equip theirs with open rifle sights, and fire rifled slugs for up to 100 yds. Looking at a 12ga from the wrong end has been known create epiphanies from time to time. I like the comfort of 00 shot like Brush Okie suggested.

My $.02.

RF 1

Where I work as a standby medic, the firearms instructors regularly have students reaching out and touching steel out to 300 yards with 1oz slugs out of the 870. Van Comp makes a great custom 870.

[Streck-Fu]

I see no mention of the 'Judge' revolver which would take into account .45 and .410 Shotgun rounds.

It's hard to beat a shotgun for home defense, That said I'd go for both the 870 12 GA and the Glock 23 or 22.

I'm not sure I'd trust a .410 from a pistol to kill much more than a snake.

[Team Sergeant]

Where I work as a standby medic, the firearms instructors regularly have students reaching out and touching steel out to 300 yards with 1oz slugs out of the 870. Van Comp makes a great custom 870.

AustinT,
Please tell me "Shotgun Master", what sort of "Steel" are you shooting at 300 yards and getting constant hits with a shotgun slug, a warship?
Team Sergeant

[Lthrnck1775]

@Reaper

I'm not too familiar with the PPK, but i think that is significantly larger than the fairly new PPS (slim < .9" wide). IMHO, The PPS looked to be the slimmest and smallest 9mm that i could comfortably grip. It has mag/grip ext for range shooting and/or more capacity.... but i have not been abe to try this PPS at a range anywhere - and its not cheap, so i won't buy it unless i try it...a lot. :)

I did NOT like the LC9 at all. Now the LCP is 100% better! My $.02

Does anyone have more input on the PPS? ...or any other slim compact 9's?

Side note: I REALLY liked the Ruger SR9 in 9mm... has a manual safety also which seems to be getting rarer. Any knowledge of "striker fired" vs. std?

Thanks.

[JJ_BPK]

@Reaper

I'm not too familiar with the PPK, but i think that is significantly larger than the fairly new PPS (slim < .9" wide). IMHO, The PPS looked to be the slimmest and smallest 9mm that i could comfortably grip. It has mag/grip ext for range shooting and/or more capacity.... but i have not been abe to try this PPS at a range anywhere - and its not cheap, so i won't buy it unless i try it...a lot. :)

I did NOT like the LC9 at all. Now the LCP is 100% better! My $.02

Does anyone have more input on the PPS? ...or any other slim compact 9's?

Side note: I REALLY liked the Ruger SR9 in 9mm... has a manual safety also which seems to be getting rarer. Any knowledge of "striker fired" vs. std?

Thanks.

The traditional Walther PP Series are the same weapon with different length barrels and grips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP

I prefer revolvers but have and carry both. My standard CCW is the S&W 940-1 and S&W CS9, both in 9MM P.

Then I jump to the S&W 625 and/or S&W 945, both are 45 ACP.

I do have a very slim, striker fired Browning 1910/1955 in 9MM K, that has never had a problem,, but I still don't use it for CCW..

Here is a chart that may help. It has the stats on small autos,, also a couple of my toys..

[AustinT]

AustinT,
Please tell me "Shotgun Master", what sort of "Steel" are you shooting at 300 yards and getting constant hits with a shotgun slug, a warship?
Team Sergeant

hahaha Not myself Team Sergeant, it was an advanced shotgun class that our facility hosted a few months ago. We don't use slugs on steel at close ranges, due to the tendency for the slug to send molten metal both from the steel and the slug all over the place, and it craters the steel really bad eventually eating holes through it.
The 300 yard targets were standard 40" E type silhouettes.
I'm not sure what sort of energy the slug maintains out at that range but we had some students hitting it, I was pretty surprised when I saw it myself.

[WRMETTLER]

Go to pistol-training and read where that guy, Todd Green, has shot

91,000 + rounds through a HK P30,
50,000 through an HK 45
61,000 through a S&W, MP 9, and
51,000 and still shooting a Glock 17.

Each test was completed within 6 months. That is a lot of shooting.

If you read his summaries and weekly updates on each pistol, you'll see that each pistol is very accurate and reliable.

Why look anywhere else?

[Guymullins]

I live in a very violent country, our murder rate being just over five times that of the USA, which is itself relatively high compared to some countries. This means that I carry a weapon every waking moment and am within a second of pulling the trigger even while in bed. Because it is not a great idea to let the public know that you are carrying, or more importantly, where you are carrying it, I have chosen my weapons so as to easily fit in a pocket or lie in my lap while driving. Hijacking and armed robberies at traffic lights are commonplace.
My daily carry gun is an old Colt Cobra .38sp which is light and easily concealable and has served me well in the past although its capacity of six is a little low for the type of crimes we are subject to. I confess to not cleaning and oiling my carry gun every day, and sometimes not every week either, but the revolver is fine with that. My city is very high (6000ft) and dry, so rust is not a problem at all.
A couple of weeks ago, I got a big wake-up call. I had just returned from a short coastal holiday about 8 hrs drive from home, and because the road is very dangerous at night (ambushes), I decided to take my Star PD .45 pistol instead of the .38, mainly so that I could take a few magazines in case of an ambush on the family. I cleaned and oiled the Star before we left and we were away for 5 days.
On my return home, instead of exchanging guns, I left the .38 in the safe and put the .45 in the open drawer of my bedside table as usual and went to sleep.
During the night, the dogs started barking madly which signified that an intruder had penetrated my high walls and electric fences. I grabbed the .45 pistol from the drawer and ran toward the window nearest to the clamour going on outside. We live in a double story house with barred doors, windows etc. so there is always time to get to the penetration point if you can establish where it is. I looked down and saw three intruders with a crow-bar trying to jemmy open one of the downstairs doors into the living room. I always carry a pistol with the mag inserted but without a round up the spout and safety off because I am afraid the "cocked and locked" condition in a pocket carried weapon could be " uncocked and lost" in one easy move. As I started moving towards the stairs to enable me to accost the intruders when they entered the living room, I cocked the Star. Well, I mean I tried to cock it, but the slide was frozen solid. I quickly removed the mag and gave the slide a sharp whack on the stair bannister and it still didnt budge. I ran back to the bedroom , found my safe key and retrieved the .38 from the safe in my bedroom cupboard and ran towards the stairs. By this time, the intruders had broken through the gate and had started on the wooden door behind it. As I came thundering down the stairs, they must have seen my shadow cast from the nightlight and they dropped tools and ran for it. I did not get to use the .38 but it was a close run thing. I learned two things. Sea air can form unseen fine rust between a slide and frame which is made worse with the mixture of light alloy frame and steel slide. and the other thing is, a night light will often work against you in your own home. After all, you are very familiar with your surroundings and an intruder isnt, so you are better off in the dark. This rather lengthy story is just to say that pistols need far more maintenance than revolvers for a similar level of reliability and that size and magazine capacity are not overriding factors when it comes to the choice of home defence guns. It also helps to have at least two to hand.

[WRMETTLER]

Buffalobob,

Your initial question that started the thread asked:

"What I want to know is only one thing. Which of these is the most reliable and jam free. I do not want a pistol that is finicky and has to constantly have the magazine lips adjusted nor do I want to have to try to clear a stoppage when I most need to shoot. If there is a 4.5 -5.0 inch barrel 9mm that I have not listed then feel to add it to the list".

I thought this question was very specific and regarded a civilian’s use of the pistol. I also believed that the question was addressed to the general membership here and not just the BTDTs. In that regard, I offered to help answer the original question by referring to a website where the owner shoots the heck out of guns, records breakages and failures to fire. This same website was referenced in post #63 above. I think it is a reasonable site that shows the potential and different problems with various common and popular handguns.

I understand this is a SF site, and that I am a guest here. This is why although I have been a member here for years, I very rarely post. The subjects of most posts are simply outside the scope of my expertise or knowledge. However, I thought the website to which I referred you might be helpful to the discussion.

Of course, I apologize if I implied that Mr. Green’s website was anything more than what it is - his summary of 4 handguns’ reliability and failure to fires.

[Buffalobob]

Your last sentence of your first post was what caught my attention. All of the rest of your post was well thought out. I appreciate the advice from the guys on this forum whose definition of reliable is the same as mine.

As I mentioned, I had been cooped up in the house for several days as DC had been subject to record rainfall. On Saturday I had my choice of shooting at a doe at 116 yards with my 460XVR or a fox squirrel at 35 yards. I decided to try the fox squirrel being as it would be easier to pack out and clean for the freezer. I missed five straight times. Good point was I didn't have to acknowledge missing an easy shot on a deer. :D