Hutaree Militia [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

incarcerated

03-28-2010, 22:20

This from the Detroit Free Press:
http://www.freep.com/article/20100328/NEWS06/100328017/1319/Fed-raids-in-Michigan-may-be-tied-to-Hutaree-a-Christian-militia-group

Fed raids in Michigan may be tied to Hutaree, a Christian-militia group

By Niraj Warikoo
Free Press Staff Writer
Posted: 3:20 p.m. March 28, 2010 | Updated: 7:53 p.m. today
Federal agents conducted raids over the weekend in Lenawee and Washtenaw counties that news media reports linked to Hutaree, a Christian-militia group in the area.

Agents also conducted raids in Indiana and Ohio and arrested at least three people. FBI spokesman Scott Wilson in Cleveland said agents arrested two people Saturday after raids in two Ohio towns. A third arrest made in northeast Illinois stemmed from a raid in northwest Indiana. The arrests are part of an ongoing investigation led by the FBI in Michigan, according to a statement from agents in Illinois.

The raids in Michigan took place Saturday and Sunday at undisclosed locations, said Detroit FBI Special Agent Sandra Berchtold.

“We can confirm that there were law enforcement activities in the Lenawee/Washtenaw County area,” Berchtold said.

But she added that “the federal warrants are sealed and we cannot comment at this time.” ....

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A note about the author:
http://www.justicejournalism.org/fellowships/fellows/911/2004_niraj_warikoo.html

9/11 Security and Liberty Fellowships, 2004-2005

Niraj Warikoo
Staff Writer
The Detroit Free Press

Niraj Warikoo is a staff writer for the Detroit Free Press, where he covers the region’s Arab-American and Muslim communities and reports on regions to the west of Detroit. He has investigated company negligence in workplace deaths, reported in India on the use of child labor in cigarette production, and exposed Michigan's decade-long neglect of its wetlands. . After the 9/11 attacks, he spoke about Arab and Muslim issues on NPR, MSNBC’s Hardball Show, C-SPAN, and the BBC. . Warikoo also covered the effect of the war on terrorism on the people in Michigan. In one terror case, his newspaper filed suit to open up immigration hearings that were closed to him by the Justice Department. Last year, he revealed how the Pentagon tapped Iraqi-Americans to lead reconstruction efforts. Raised in Pennsylvania, Warikoo graduated from Columbia University with a Bachelor’s degree in political science and a master’s in journalism. He has spoken at several forums, including the Investigative Reporters and Editors conference, Poynter National Writers Workshop, a Smithsonian exhibit on 9/11, and the UNITY convention in Washington D.C.

fng13

03-29-2010, 00:00

I've always wondered what people like this do during the day. Do they have jobs? Do they just hang out and wait to see if something is going to happen?

What are they shooting at in that video, I didn't see a single target. I get they want to look cool but seriously whats the point they couldn't even tell if they hit anything.

edited to add: I just watched some of their "Training Vids" and I love how they repeatedly flag each other and the camera, and I almost feel bad for the guy who got stuck with the 10/22

Paslode

03-29-2010, 06:07

I've always wondered what people like this do during the day. Do they have jobs? Do they just hang out and wait to see if something is going to happen?

Those I know about do have jobs. Some go to church, take kids to the movies, garden, blog, browse, etc. Ron Paul and Alex Jones appear to get a lot of air time in their ranks......from which you can draw your own conclusions.

CloseDanger

03-29-2010, 06:34

Stated the warrants were sealed so it may not have been something the ADA may use for charges. Then again, I hear threats were made so you never know.
Some extensive raids. The most detail I found was here. (http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2010/03/28/hutaree-group-planned-secession-to-fight-non-christians/)

I also heard rumors that extensive commo gear was found to include Radio antennas and sat dishes.

Ret10Echo

03-29-2010, 06:53

I also heard rumors that extensive commo gear was found to include Radio antennas and sat dishes.

Provided they were not operating in violation of FCC rules, how is this illegal in these United States?

PedOncoDoc

03-29-2010, 07:01

I heard about the raids this morning on the news while heading into work. There was mention that the group was making pipe bombs about 20 miles down the road from me. Not a lot of info is coming out just yet.

SF-TX

03-29-2010, 08:07

The raids may be a response to alleged threats members of this group made against members of the religion of peace. I am awaiting the FBI raids on the numerous Jamaat ul-Fuqra compounds located throughout the USA.

Christian Militia Raid: Were the Hutaree Targeted for Threats Against Muslims?
Leader of Michigan Militia Group Says Christian Extremists Begged for Help After FBI Raid
By DAN HARRIS and SARAH NETTER

March 29, 2010—

Investigators are expected to release more information today in the raid on a Christian militia group, with one person involved in the militia movement suggesting the shadowy group had made threats against Muslims.

"Obviously someone has a source or a wiretap or intel is coming to them in some form or fashion to trigger, 'Alright we are not going to let these guys take one step further in this operation. We are going to take them down,'" ABC News consultant and former FBI agent Brad Garrett said.

Federal officials have remained tightlipped about the three-state raid Sunday that nabbed seven people and arrest records have been sealed. Michael Lackomar, the leader of Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia, a separate Michigan-based militia group, told ABC News he heard that threats toward Islamic groups made by extremist group the Hutaree may have fueled the arrests.

The suspects are due in court today.

A person claiming to be a member of the Hutaree posted a message online pleading for help and claiming that officials "broke into homes and took children and used the tasers on wives ... AND my son who is 12."

The raids were conducted Sunday in Michigan, Ohio and Illinois, federal officials confirmed to the Associated Press, though they did not mention the Hutaree specifically.

Lackomar, said several members of the Hutaree, which have trained with the SMVM on occasion, showed up on the doorstep of one of his colleagues shortly after the raid.

"They were asking for a place to hide as it were and he wasn't willing to assist them in that manner," Lackomar said.

On their Web site, the Hutaree -- which they say means "Christian warriors" -- say they are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren't." A video shows members patrolling the woods with camouflage and weapons preparing for the arrival of the anti-Christ."

"The Hutaree will one day see its enemy and meet him on the battlefield if so God wills it," the Web site claims.

Militia Leader: Hutaree Like a Cult

Despite the connection between the groups, Lackomar said the Hutaree are not truly part fo the militia movement, but more like a cult.

"They believe that this is the end of the world as prophesized by the Bible and it is their duty to take up arms to fight alongside Jesus against the impending forces of Satan," he said.

"We are community-based," Lackomar said of the SMVM. "We are willing to accept anybody that lives among us that wants to protect themselves, their neighborhood, wants to help out in times of emergency."

Going after a group like the Hutaree can be dangerous, Garrett said.

"This crowd tends to be heavily armed and they are all conspiracy theorists that the government is trying to take over," he said. "And so you have to be very careful and cautious when starting arresting people like this because you can walk right into an ambush."

Lackomar said members of the Hutaree dressed identically, carried the same equipment and weapons and called themselves by biblical-sounding names.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/christian-militia-targeted-anti-muslim-views/story?id=10228716

Surgicalcric

03-29-2010, 09:02

I am awaiting the FBI raids on the numerous Jamaat ul-Fuqra compounds located throughout the USA.

Dont hold your breath Brother.

ABN307

03-29-2010, 09:58

Smoke and mirrors.

jw74

03-29-2010, 11:08

I am awaiting the FBI raids on the numerous Jamaat ul-Fuqra compounds located throughout the USA.

Or how about MS13, Latin Kings, H.A. et al. If domestic terrorism is a real threat (and I believe it is) then the gangs should be added to the list. I know that law enforcement aggressively investigates the gangs, but considering them domestic terrorists might help fund some local efforts. At the very least, it would shed more light on the problem.
As to the video, just because they look like clowns running through their back yards doesn't make them irrelevant or less dangerous. I have seen many Al Queda training videos on the news that looked ridiculous with a hooded terrorist doing a jump spin kick to disarm his foe, and yet...

CloseDanger

03-29-2010, 11:14

Here (http://www.wxyz.com/news/story/UPDATE-Members-of-Milita-Group-Indicted/eE6ZljBWa0uFOMUdtOLzvw.cspx) and Here (http://detroitnews.com/article/20100329/METRO/3290381/Indictment--Militia-members-sought-to--levy-war--against-U.S.#ixzz0jZoiMZMn).

Seditious Conspiracy, Attempt to Use Weapons of Mass Destruction, Teaching/Demonstrating Use of Explosive Materials and two counts of Carrying, Using and Posessing a Firearm During and in Relation to a Crime of Violence.

armymom1228

03-29-2010, 11:54

Or how about MS13, Latin Kings, H.A. et al. If domestic terrorism is a real threat (and I believe it is) then the gangs should be added to the list. I know that law enforcement aggressively investigates the gangs, but considering them domestic terrorists might help fund some local efforts. At the very least, it would shed more light on the problem.
As to the video, just because they look like clowns running through their back yards doesn't make them irrelevant or less dangerous. I have seen many Al Queda training videos on the news that looked ridiculous with a hooded terrorist doing a jump spin kick to disarm his foe, and yet...

Every major city and a lot of smaller one's have 'gang task forces". They arrest and put away as fast as they can, it's like a hydrilla. Cut off one part and another takes it place. Just watched a documentary on it last weekend. History channel I think.

News Commentator say this Hutaree group had a plan to kill one cop, then when he/she gets buried and a lot of cops are there, blow them all up. Scary as heck plan.

AM

jw74

03-29-2010, 12:04

I'm well aware of the Gang task forces. As stated, I know that Law enforcement prosecutes them. My point was that they should also classify them as domestic terror groups.

Surgicalcric

03-29-2010, 12:05

...News Commentator say...

Well they must be guilty then... :rolleyes:

As for the gang task force subject, the gang war wont be won with arrests, but with the conviction and just punishment of those involved...

To quote a Brother, "And so it goes..."

Crip

fng13

03-29-2010, 12:19

This is only slightly related but I am curious as to whether or not there has ever been a clear ruling on the rights afforded to militias and what actually constitutes a militia.

It seems now would be a good time to have such a distinction. I know that there have been many cases tried but never has there been a case that clearly explains what constitutes a militia and what rights are afforded to them. It seems most of the cases tried have been the reverse i.e. to examine what rights the individual has.

It seems there is perceived problem with militia groups trying to gain access to explosives or automatic weapons but I was unable to find a case that clearly showed a supreme court interpretation of whether or not such bans were constitutional relating strictly to militias. I was also unable to find a clear ruling on what even constitutes a militia, if it is just a loose association of people or something more regulated.

I did find news of a case that will be going infront of the supreme court which could effect some of this.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/02/26/88829/supreme-court-to-scrutinize-state.html

armymom1228

03-29-2010, 12:27

Well they must be guilty then... :rolleyes:

To quote a Brother, "And so it goes..."

Crip

Crip darlin' I was trying to avoid saying.. 'cnn'...so I just left it at.. :p

okay here ya go.
David Brian Stone, 45, his wife, Tina Stone, 44, and David Stone's two adult sons allegedly conspired with five other members of the fringe Christian militia group called the Hutaree to kill a Michigan law enforcement officer and then ambush the officer's colleagues who would have gathered for the funeral, according to court documents

source here. (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/michigan-christian-militia-hutaree-targeted-law-enforcement/story?id=10228716)

SF-TX

03-29-2010, 12:43

Or how about MS13, Latin Kings, H.A. et al. If domestic terrorism is a real threat (and I believe it is) then the gangs should be added to the list. I know that law enforcement aggressively investigates the gangs, but considering them domestic terrorists might help fund some local efforts. At the very least, it would shed more light on the problem.
As to the video, just because they look like clowns running through their back yards doesn't make them irrelevant or less dangerous. I have seen many Al Queda training videos on the news that looked ridiculous with a hooded terrorist doing a jump spin kick to disarm his foe, and yet...

Briefly discussed in this thread:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21559&highlight=gang+terrorist

jw74

03-29-2010, 12:55

Briefly discussed in this thread:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21559&highlight=gang+terrorist

Thanks for the tip, SF-TX. Good info there.

Five-O

03-29-2010, 15:23

The raids may be a response to alleged threats members of this group made against members of the religion of peace. I am awaiting the FBI raids on the numerous Jamaat ul-Fuqra compounds located throughout the USA.

Here is an idea..

Maybe HRT should drop them off at a Mosque (create a perimeter) and let them talk things out amongst themselves.

Endorphin Rush

03-29-2010, 15:55

Just adding information for what it's worth.

Gypsy

03-29-2010, 16:50

The raids may be a response to alleged threats members of this group made against members of the religion of peace. I am awaiting the FBI raids on the numerous Jamaat ul-Fuqra compounds located throughout the USA.

That was the first report I heard.

I'm waiting for the disclaimer to be repeated over and over and over again by all news outlets how this group doesn't represent all Christians as a whole.

:munchin

Paslode

03-29-2010, 18:24

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100329/D9EOISE80.html

By COREY WILLIAMS and DEVLIN BARRETT

DETROIT (AP) - Nine alleged members of a Christian militia group that was girding for battle with the Antichrist were charged Monday with plotting to kill a police officer and slaughter scores more by bombing the funeral - all in hopes of touching off an uprising against the U.S. government.

Seven men and one woman believed to be part of the Michigan-based Hutaree were arrested over the weekend in raids in Michigan, Indiana and Ohio, and another was still being sought. Authorities blocked off a rural area Monday evening about 30 miles from the site of Saturday's raid near Adrian but wouldn't say who they were searching for or whether the search was related to the weekend raids.

FBI agents moved quickly against the group because its members were planning an attack sometime in April, prosecutors said. Authorities seized guns in the raids but would not say whether they found any explosives.

The arrests have dealt "a severe blow to a dangerous organization that today stands accused of conspiring to levy war against the United States," Attorney General Eric Holder said.

Authorities said the arrests underscored the dangers of homegrown right-wing extremism of the sort seen in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 people.

In an indictment unsealed Monday, prosecutors said the group began military-style training in the Michigan woods in 2008, learning how to shoot guns and make and set off bombs.

David Brian Stone, 44, of Clayton, Mich., and one of his sons were identified as the ringleaders of the group. Stone, who was known as "Captain Hutaree," organized the group in paramilitary fashion and members were assigned secret names, prosecutors said. Ranks ranged from "radoks" to "gunners," according to the group's Web site.

Stone's ex-wife, Donna Stone, told The Associated Press that Stone pulled her son into the movement. Another of Stone's sons also was charged.

"It started out as a Christian thing," Donna Stone said. "You go to church. You pray. You take care of your family. I think David started to take it a little too far."

Prosecutors said Stone had identified certain law enforcement officers near his home as potential targets. He and other members discussed setting off bombs at a police funeral, using a fake 911 call to lure an officer to his death, killing an officer after a traffic stop, or attacking the family of an officer, according to the indictment.

After such attacks, the group allegedly planned to retreat to "rally points" protected by trip-wired explosives for a violent standoff with the law.

"It is believed by the Hutaree that this engagement would then serve as a catalyst for a more widespread uprising against the government," the indictment said.

The charges against the eight include seditious conspiracy - plotting to levy war against the U.S. - possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, teaching the use of explosives, and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction - homemade bombs. The defendants were jailed, awaiting bail hearings Wednesday.

Hutaree says on its Web site its name means "Christian warrior" and describes the word as part of a secret language that few are privileged to know. The group quotes several Bible passages and declares: "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. ... Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment."

(AP) A law enforcement official walks out of an armored vehicle tank in a staging area in Hillsdale...
Full Image
The nature of the organization's alleged grudge against law enforcement and the government was unclear. The Web site does not list any specific grievances.

The site features a picture of 17 men in camouflage, all holding large guns, and includes videos of armed men running through the woods. Each wears a shoulder patch that bears a cross and two red spears.

David Cid, executive director of the Oklahoma City-based Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism, said there has been a resurgence in the past year or two of "domestic militancy" similar to what was seen before the Oklahoma City bombing.

"It's issues like eminent domain and immigration, and apparently national health care in some quarters," said Cid, a former FBI counterterrorism agent. "It's increasing these people's ire and their discomfort with their own government."

The wife of one of the defendants described Hutaree as a small group of patriotic, Christian buddies who were just doing survival training.

"It consisted of a dad and two of his sons and I think just a couple other close friends of theirs," said Kelly Sickles, who husband, Kristopher, was among those charged. "It was supposed to be a Christian group. Christ-like, right, so why would you think that's something wrong with that, right?"

Sickles said she came home Saturday night to find her house in Sandusky, Ohio, in disarray. Agents seized the guns her husband collected as a hobby and searched for bomb-making materials, she said, but added: "He doesn't even know how to make a bomb. We had no bomb material here."

She said she couldn't believe her 27-year-old husband could be involved in anything violent.

"It was just survival skills," she said. "That's what they were learning. And it's just patriotism. It's in our Constitution."

One of the defendants expressed anti-tax views during his Monday court hearing.

Thomas W. Piatek, a truck driver from Whiting, Ind., told a federal judge he could not afford an attorney because he was "getting raped on property taxes."

The mother of another defendant, 33-year-old Jacob Ward, told police in Huron, Ohio, last summer that family members took away his two guns - an AK-47 rifle and a semiautomatic pistol - because she thought he needed mental health treatment.

Ward told police that he needed to protect himself from members of a crime family that was keeping him from his girlfried, according to Huron police records obtained by the AP. He also said he was going to meet with the CIA.

Seven of the defendants in court in Michigan asked to be represented by public defenders. The eighth had a public defender appointed in Indiana.

---

Devlin Barrett reported from Washington. Associated Press Writers Meghan Barr in Sandusky, Ohio; David Aguilar and Jeff Karoub in Detroit; and Mike Householder in Adrian, Mich.; and Don Babwin in Chicago contributed to this report.

Utah Bob

03-29-2010, 18:56

Ward told police that he needed to protect himself from members of a crime family that was keeping him from his girlfried, according to Huron police records obtained by the AP. He also said he was going to meet with the CIA.

Uh huh.:rolleyes:
Nuts with gunz.

T-Rock

03-29-2010, 19:01

I'm waiting for the disclaimer to be repeated over and over and over again by all news outlets how this group doesn't represent all Christians as a whole.

I'm waiting for Hutaree's Biblical collection of key texts of their movement to be released - I'm sure their Christian jurisprudence is heavy on the theology and probably goes something like this:

"Yahweh is our objective, the New Testament is our Constitution, the Prophet is our leader, Holy war is our way, and death for the sake of Yahweh is the highest of our aspirations."

I'm gonna have to keep a closer eye on the Lutherans next door :D

How stupid could David Brian Stone be...CAIR's gonna have a field day...

CloseDanger

03-29-2010, 20:44

Any group that targets the Police, A part of Gods Army for real, is not Christian.

The FBI does not usually target something unless they have a good reason. Al Fuqura is not targeted as they have not outwardly made a true threat, yet this group considered a training exercise as the killing of an Officer of the Law in order to kill more.
Thats despicable and needs action right away. The Police here have kept this the safest Nation on the planet, and their dedication to order and law are paramont to allowing US to succeed as a nation through security of Families. Without these fine men that put up with the riff raff of societiy, we could not war against enemies abroad. Had I not had the most exellent brothers in Law Enforcement (LEO), I could not leave my family to fight enemies elsewhere.

Anyone who targets them needs to be caught on the carpert before the fact. Any troopy needs to know that the law is determined far above those that enforce it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

If you make plans to kill someone from Gods real army (the Police) on the internet, be prepared to have an interdiction from the feds.

Al-Fuqura and MS-13 is a threat we all know, and watched they are, yet I will not disclose to you how well OUR LEO have protected us from this in the past and the future. There is good coverage and it is done without encroachment upon rights.

This was a good pull. Give kudos to the FBI for again being correct in removing misdirected people from the public. I applaud this action and seeing how that operation was run see it as safe as humanly as possible.

The FBI has prevented many, many deaths in the past year and have a badge of Honor in my book for their discernment of what is a threat and what is not.

Thanks guys. Keep the faith!

SF-TX

03-29-2010, 21:05

Provided they were not operating in violation of FCC rules, how is this illegal in these United States?

Closedanger,

Please answer the question posed to you by Ret10Echo and quit posting inane comments.

Paslode

03-29-2010, 21:32

Barn Owl

03-29-2010, 21:37

The survivalist video from the other site.

http://hutaree.com/azuurlin/?p=3

What do you think of the "Instructional Videos" posted on the blog? IMHO, their ambitions outstretched their abilities long before attack planning got underway. "Azuurlin" is hard to take seriously.

Barn Owl

T-Rock

03-29-2010, 22:00

...Al Fuqura is not targeted as they have not outwardly made a true threat...

I dunno - the leader of Jamaat ul-fuqra, “Muslims of America” (Quranic Open University) is non other than Sheikh Syed Mubarik Ali Shah Gilani whose intention was to 'purify' Islam through violence. JF actually carried out numerous fire-bombings across the United States - Portland, Seattle, Canton, Michigan, and targeted Los Angeles, Arizona and Colorado––oil and gas installations along with electrical facilities, a US. Air Force Academy, and other military sites. Jamaat ul-fuqra are suspects in at least 10 unsolved assassinations and 17 firebombing cases between 1979 and 1990.

FWIW, Rodney Hampton-el, a member of Jamaat ul-fuqra, was linked in Congressional testimony to the planning of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL-pF9cEgX4

John Allen Muhammad?

Soldiers of Allah - Nidal Hasan?
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/abc_nidal_hasan_business_card2_091112_mn.jpg

There's a reason why Jamaat ul-fuqra is banned in Pakistan...

CloseDanger

03-29-2010, 22:24

SF-TX:

I should have been more specific.

Closedanger,

Please answer the question posed to you by Ret10Echo and quit posting inane comments.

Could I afford high power broadcasting, I would have several systems myself.

The ability does not mean there is criminal intent. The equipment shows that there is advanced equipment in subversive elements and that should be appreciated. I apologize for not mentioning the thought at the time. It is easy to buy that equipment. I have no problem with people having it.

In this case,it shows an organization that needs to be taken account in matrix. Many groups use internet cafe or other junk to relay their objective. These look like more advance systems. High power antennas are not unusual but the delusion that they would get to use them after they shot a bunch of cops tells me that a method of ascertainment of this equipment should have, might have, and may have raised an eyebrow.
Travellers and HAM operators and good high class people use them all the time, mostly. Check the call signs.

What struck me was the fact that they built local ability in information war under radical pretext and did not only have the technology to run an insurgency, but from what I gather, it was not in operation. It was in reserve. I may be wrong which happens sometimes. Sparring with people usually brings out the truth.

I will set my precedence out for you
This group is talking on the internet about killing Officers, and in the meantime have ability to broadcast to the public and holds arms - (some arms not legal maybe) and SATCOM. Intricacy and technological ability shows professional outliers either way. To you, maybe they are a joke. To intel, it may mean more.

Someone was trained and someone was buying it and someone was planning.

Just a look out station to me, nothing more.
In fact, I hope you have such capability.

It just stood out to me.

I am sure there is more to what caught my attention to that point but cannot remember it right now. There is a double edged sword here in many ways.
Correct me if I am wrong in what I see. The reason I brought it up escapes me right now.

Where as the question of what they did wrong, outwardly planning to kill troops is the answer.

CloseDanger

03-29-2010, 22:38

JF actually carried out numerous fire-bombings across the United States - Portland, Seattle, Canton, Michigan, and targeted Los Angeles, Arizona and Colorado––oil and gas installations along with electrical facilities, a US. Air Force Academy, and other military sites. Jamaat ul-fuqra are suspects in at least 10 unsolved assassinations and 17 firebombing cases between 1979 and 1990.

Some screwed up moslem corporations are better than others. Some are left to provide intel. THAT one, I want brought to the full force of the Law.

Some are Intelligence and some intelligence is a game of blood that some administrations are apprehensive to handle. Doughlass Ferrah has taken great account of this particular killer group. No one else seems to have the balls to handle it.

If there is Internet traffic comparable to the hutaree, arrest them immediately.
Do not think for an instant I enjoy having any of these amongst us at all.

Utah Bob

03-30-2010, 06:19

Any group that targets the Police, A part of Gods Army for real, is not Christian.

Dang. All those years in law enforcement and nobody told me I was a part of "God's Real Army".
I never even got a GRA armband.
Or is it a lapel pin?
Or a secret handshake? :rolleyes:

armymom1228

03-30-2010, 08:33

Dang. All those years in law enforcement and nobody told me I was a part of "God's Real Army".
I never even got a GRA armband.
Or is it a lapel pin?
Or a secret handshake? :rolleyes:

Perhaps it was because you were down here in Fla? After all we don't even seem to grow our own Militias . It would be hard to attack anyone from behind a walker. :munchin
AM

jw74

03-30-2010, 09:16

'Usually' ends up with Dimwit Janet Reno and Lon Horichi types eventually creating a Waco or Ruby Ridge.

I only know what I've read, but I don't get what you mean by a "Lon Horichi type". I know who he was and I know how Ruby Ridge went down according to reports, but this statement seems like armchair quarterbacking to me. Maybe I misunderstood your post.

Team Sergeant

03-30-2010, 09:31

Anyone see their photo's? :rolleyes: I'm betting mom and dad were also their aunt or uncle.......;)

PedOncoDoc

03-30-2010, 09:52

Anyone see their photo's? :rolleyes: I'm betting mom and dad were also their aunt or uncle.......;)

A neonatal intensive care unit I worked at briefly had called these unique relatives "duncles and maunts". ;)

I would have preferred the term "funcle" which can be shortened to "The funk."

Defender968

03-30-2010, 10:02

Anyone see their photo's? I'm betting mom and dad were also their aunt or uncle.......

Concur TS, I'm betting these are not the sharpest tools in the shed, a very narrow family tree could be the root cause :D

Just a side note I read the indictment, the Feds were spot on IMHO to go after these guys.

Given what was on their website, and in their training videos, I would bet they've been flapping their gums about their big plans, :eek: Their own statements (I haven’t seen them in print but I’m sure they’ve made them) coupled with the weapons, commo gear, and most importantly the ILLEGAL explosives they were making provides more than sufficient justification to arrest these asshats IMO, glad it happened before anyone was hurt, espeically the local LEOs it sounds like they were going to target.

Loved their tactics though :rolleyes:, I don't think their ambushes would have lasted long, they'd have killed each other with poor muzzle discipline before doing too much damage to anyone else : :eek:

albeham

03-30-2010, 10:21

Could I afford high power broadcasting, I would have several systems myself.

This is just another medium to spread their thoughts.

High power antennas are not unusual but the delusion that they would get to use them after they shot a bunch of cops tells me that a method of ascertainment of this equipment should have, might have, and may have raised an eyebrow.

Why?

Travellers and HAM operators and good high class people use them all the time, mostly. Check the call signs.

Have you checked names with the FCC data Base?

What struck me was the fact that they built local ability in information war under radical pretext and did not only have the technology to run an insurgency, but from what I gather, it was not in operation. It was in reserve.

The Mormons store Ham radio rigs, are they the same ?

" and in the meantime have ability to broadcast to the public and holds arms - (some arms not legal maybe) and SATCOM.

What would they broadcast to the public? Why SATCOM?

Someone was trained and someone was buying it and someone was planning.

Just few thoughts I have.

AL :munchin

Utah Bob

03-30-2010, 11:37

Perhaps it was because you were down here in Fla? After all we don't even seem to grow our own Militias . It would be hard to attack anyone from behind a walker. :munchin
AM

Not if you use one of those amphib stealth swamp walkers. The newest ones (I believe they are the SS62) are also mine resistant. You can pop out of a gator filled canal, orange grove, golf course, senior center or strip mall and wreak some serious militia mayhem!

Saturation

03-30-2010, 12:08

Not if you use one of those amphib stealth swamp walkers. The newest ones (I believe they are the SS62) are also mine resistant. You can pop out of a gator filled canal, orange grove, golf course, senior center or strip mall and wreak some serious militia mayhem!

And all in time for the early bird :D

Surf n Turf

03-30-2010, 20:42

I only know what I've read, but I don't get what you mean by a "Lon Horichi type". I know who he was and I know how Ruby Ridge went down according to reports, but this statement seems like armchair quarterbacking to me. Maybe I misunderstood your post.

jw74,
Your query was to Paslode, but let me offer my studied opinion of Mr. Lon Tomohisa Horiuchi, and his conduct at Ruby Ridge on August 21, 1992.
I have attached a source page for your reference.
BTW, The Federal Government "settled" with the Weaver family for $3.1 Million at the end of this CF.

SnT

The Department of Justice (DOJ) created a "Ruby Ridge Task Force" to investigate allegations made by Weaver's defense attorney Gerry Spence. On June 10, 1994, the Task Force delivered its 542-page report to the DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility. The Report stated: "With regard to the two shots fired on August 22, we concluded that the first shot met the standard of "objective reasonableness" the Constitution requires for the legal use of deadly force but that the second shot did not satisfy that standard. Horiuchi fired a shot at a man ducking into the cabin. The shot killed Vicki Weaver as she stood inside the cabin behind the door, holding her infant daughter, Elisheba.

In 1997, Boundary County, Idaho Prosecutor Denise Woodbury, with the help of special prosecutor Stephen Yagman, charged Horiuchi in state court with involuntary manslaughter. Horiuchi successfully petitioned to remove the case to federal court,[7] where the case was dismissed by U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge on May 14, 1998, who cited the supremacy clause of the Constitution which grants immunity to federal officers acting in the scope of their employment.

The decision to dismiss the charges was reversed by an en banc panel of the Ninth Circuit, which held that enough uncertainty about the facts of the case existed for Horiuchi to stand trial on state manslaughter charges. Ultimately, the then-sitting Boundary County Prosecutor, Brett Benson, who had defeated Woodbury in the 2000 election, decided to drop the charges because he felt it was unlikely the state could prove the case and too much time had passed.

Revised Rules of Engagement at Ruby Ridge:
“We also found serious problems with the terms of the Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge. Certain portions of these Rules not only departed from the FBI's standard deadly force policy but also contravened the Constitution of the United States.”

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/weaverhome.html

Harpy

03-30-2010, 21:30

I feel like this may end up being a big distraction to the security agencies from what should be their main focus. It is a little bit like the agencies in Mumbai that were focused on investigating Hindu groups right before the 26/11 attacks in Mumbai.

Richard

03-30-2010, 21:47

jw74

03-30-2010, 21:58

jw74,
Your query was to Paslode, but let me offer my studied opinion of Mr. Lon Tomohisa Horiuchi,

I'm familiar with the case and the followup. I understand and agree that the situation was mishandled by the highest authorities, however I do not see Horichi's background as being consistent with impulse control issues. I have seen cases in the media since the beginning of the GWOT where someone on the ground was second guessed, railroaded, and found to be guilty. i remain unwilling to second guess or accept damage control statements. I do not believe Ruby Ridge was handled in the best way possible, nor do I feel that the FBI is infallible. But equating Horiuchi to a bungling janet Reno doesnt sit well with me. As I said, His background is not that of someone with impulse control issues though anything is possible.
Apologize for the thread hijacking.

Surf n Turf

03-30-2010, 22:08

Just another one of those self-professed religions of peace carrying out gawd's work according to their interpolation of whatever somebody scratched on a wall or papyrus or vellum somewhere... :rolleyes:

Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin

Richard,
Them fellers look like the gene pool shorted their fair share.
Glad to see one of ‘em was promoted to Captain – it’s tuff being a “radoks" or "gunner”-- having to provide for the wife and all. :D
SnT

Paslode

03-31-2010, 07:42

I think (I am still dwelling on it.) what bothers me, is that it is too easy to pick on people like this and get away with it. All you have to do is look at many of the responses on the topic to get that idea. Hell go to the website Hutaree website and see all the vile 'crap' that has been sprayed around and consumed.....that shit should be illegal. It is also too easy for the Feds to have an agenda, paint with a wide brush and get away with it.

TS told me this one time, The ones (Militia) you know about aren't the ones worry about, it's the ones you don't know about that are the worry.

That said, IMO this whole Hutaree thing is a Dog and Pony show of useful idiots.

Utah Bob

03-31-2010, 08:43

orion5

03-31-2010, 12:25

Aww....sweet wedding photos of the "alleged" terrorist thugs. Nothing "Christian" or "militia" about these killer wannabes.

I think from left to right that is cousin, sister, bride Tina Stone, groom David Brian Stone, brother, father....no, um, brother, aunt, bride, groom, son, uncle...or is it brother/cousin/uncle on the left? .....I'm so confused......

Nothing says "I do" like a concrete bunker and camouflage netting! :rolleyes:

link (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/hutaree/)

Utah Bob

03-31-2010, 12:32

Nothing says "I do" like a concrete bunker and camouflage netting! :rolleyes:

Well, it worked for Adolf and Eva.:rolleyes:

mojaveman

03-31-2010, 12:39

Utah Bob

03-31-2010, 12:55

Nice pictures,

Wackos can sometimes bring color and excitement to an otherwise mundane world. How about a reality show? These folks are definately operating on a different frequency. :p

"Dancing with the Militia"
"Keeping Up with the Huttarees"
"America's Got Militia"
"Extreme Bunker Makeover"
"The Camo Bachelor"
"The Amazing (white) Race"
"Hell's Kitchen Police"
"Survivor: Michigan"
"The Real Biggest Losers"
:D

orion5

03-31-2010, 13:07

"Dancing with the Militia"
"Keeping Up with the Huttarees"
"America's Got Militia"
"Extreme Bunker Makeover"
"The Camo Bachelor"
"The Amazing (white) Race"
"Hell's Kitchen Police"
"Survivor: Michigan"
"The Real Biggest Losers"
:D

UB- LMAO - PRICELESS! I vote for "The Real Biggest Losers"....however, another possibility might be: "The Next Hutaree Design Star." That bunker has all kinds of marketable possibilities, especially in Cali as that state goes bankrupt and those citizens start revolting. Need to have a fashionable bunker! :munchin

Green Light

03-31-2010, 15:00

Or a napkin, or golden tablets, or a spiral notebook.......:D
Nothing like a little bigotry lite before bed. :mad:

Utah Bob

03-31-2010, 20:11

Nothing like a little bigotry lite before bed. :mad:

Explain please.

Defender968

03-31-2010, 21:04

I think (I am still dwelling on it.) what bothers me, is that it is too easy to pick on people like this and get away with it.

Pick on....so what the federal LEO's here are bullies just finding inocent victims, is that what you're saying? Maybe I'm just not understanding your post.

Would you rather just ignore a group that is planning to kill LEO's beause it's their quest from God?

All you have to do is look at many of the responses on the topic to get that idea. Hell go to the website Hutaree website and see all the vile 'crap' that has been sprayed around and consumed.....that shit should be illegal. It is also too easy for the Feds to have an agenda, paint with a wide brush and get away with it.

Wide brush, so you think the FEDs just said crazy.... bad..... arrest.... ug? I'm not following what you're saying here?

TS told me this one time, The ones (Militia) you know about aren't the ones worry about, it's the ones you don't know about that are the worry.

Ok I think you're taking TR out of context if I understand your post correctly, yes this group was not going to take over the country or start a civil war (thus we shouldn't worry about them on the big scale), why because they were complete idiots....and while you don't worry about them on the large scale which is what I believe TR was talking about they still have to be dealt with. According to the affidavit this group was planning on ambushing and killing LEO's because it was their duty from God.....that's a pretty specific charge, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say they probably said as much and more over the course of this case. This makes them a threat IMO and one that needs to be dealt with and before they ambush a local LEO. While I'm not concerned with these guys on a large scale they could have easily ambushed and killed several local LEOs just doing their jobs.

What exactly is your issue with this arrest?

RichL025

03-31-2010, 21:08

Nothing like a little bigotry lite before bed. :mad:

Green Light,

I think they were taking the piss out of ALL religions (hence the comments about vellum & writing on walls), not just ones that received their message on golden tablets.

Or, to quote Sgt "Our Big Toe" Hulka: "Settle down, Francis" ;)

Paslode

04-01-2010, 03:10

Pick on....so what the federal LEO's here are bullies just finding inocent victims, is that what you're saying? Maybe I'm just not understanding your post.

Would you rather just ignore a group that is planning to kill LEO's beause it's their quest from God?

Pick on.....it would be the first time in recent history.....a group of useful idiots in Waco, TX that had to be stormed with tanks. That was overkill by the Feds, you would have thought they were the Taliban stocked with RPG's. And I heard many times, including on PS.com that Koresh could easily been picked up on his trips to town and the mass loss of life could have been avoided.

Ignore we do it all the time. Like we ignore the the friendly Muslims training facilirties like in Islamburg? How about all those students that run back and forth to Pakistan to further their education?

Look up the many post on here from Warrior Mentor on Islam in America.

Wide brush, so you think the FEDs just said crazy.... bad..... arrest.... ug? I'm not following what you're saying here?

The wide brush of the Feds by way of Special Interest advisers associating Ron Paul Supporters, Conservatives, Christians, Military Personnel, The Tea Party, Militias and Racists...... Maybe you didn't read it, but there was this trash put out by DHS called MIAC Report! I am sure Mark Potak and SPLC are jumping for joy over the Hutaree bust!

The SPLC is a leftist, racist organization with its own agenda.

TR

The SPLC can think and say what they want.

I am disappointed that the three recent reports they issued were bought into by the LEOs and Feds so readily, hook, line, and sinker and accepted as Gospel.

Whatever happened to analysis?

TR

Clearly advancing an agenda.

Good to arm yourself with an understanding of exactly how propagandists manipulate populations.

Which is why you should read the attachments from the Chapter on Spin in Alvin and Heidi Toffler's "War and Anti-War"

Ok I think you're taking TR out of context if I understand your post correctly, yes this group was not going to take over the country or start a civil war (thus we shouldn't worry about them on the big scale), why because they were complete idiots....and while you don't worry about them on the large scale which is what I believe TR was talking about they still have to be dealt with. According to the affidavit this group was planning on ambushing and killing LEO's because it was their duty from God.....that's a pretty specific charge, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say they probably said as much and more over the course of this case. This makes them a threat IMO and one that needs to be dealt with and before they ambush a local LEO. While I'm not concerned with these guys on a large scale they could have easily ambushed and killed several local LEOs just doing their jobs.

What exactly is your issue with this arrest?

Actually if you read back through there it Team Sargent, not TR.....but to answer your question. I don't have issue over the arrest, if you say your going to kill someone you need to be dealt with. My issue or feeling is that there far worse folks out there who are tacticians, who don't blow smoke up each others asses, who don't make themselves visible on YouTube and MAYBE because of brick throwing, a lot of pissed off people over HCR and the economic state we're in someone decided we needed to make an example of some useful idiots.

How do I come up with my wacky ideas....For your reference....topics like these to name a few:

http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24511&highlight=randy+weaver

http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22589&highlight=miac

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22312

Sigaba

04-01-2010, 03:56

Paslode--

I'm not quite seeing your point. In the post below, you seem to be suggesting that people should not be allowed "to pick on people" and that the invective directed at the Huratees "should be illegal."

I think (I am still dwelling on it.) what bothers me, is that it is too easy to pick on people like this and get away with it. All you have to do is look at many of the responses on the topic to get that idea. Hell go to the website Hutaree website and see all the vile 'crap' that has been sprayed around and consumed.....that shit should be illegal. It is also too easy for the Feds to have an agenda, paint with a wide brush and get away with it.Yet, not long ago, you were willing to brand certain politicians as enemies of America if they sought to bypass the constitution <<LINK1 (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320433&postcount=16)>> and <<LINK2 (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320440&postcount=18)>>.

How would legislation making certain types of speech illegal not fall into the very same category of behavior you deplored? :confused:

Sigaba

04-01-2010, 04:05

And now, back to the snark!

I think the reality show should be titled So You Say You Want a Revolution?

The show would pit teams of would-be revolutionaries/freedom fighters. The teams would represent different types of revolutionary movements (religious, nationalist, ideological/political). They would compete in a series of tests and challenges including:

Writing a coherent manifesto (extra points for words per page and for pithy slogans like "Stick it to the man!");
Composing an anthem;
Producing a recruiting / training video;
Designing uniforms, flags, and banners;
Infiltrating strongholds of "the enemy" (in most cases, these strongholds would be any place where people are exposed to differing viewpoints--like libraries--or locations where folks somehow manage to have conversations with people who may disagree); and,
Paternity tests
This show would be a radical departure (pardon the pun) from other reality programming because judges will be drawn from existing shows. These judges would host the competing teams on those existing shows. So, the paternity testing would be done on The Maury Povich Show, anthems would be evaluated during special episodes of American Idol, and the team at Project Runway would critique uniforms ("Fierce!")*.

Teams that fare well in the challenges would return to their shared residence (where sparks will fly and romance bloom) to rest up for the next show. Eliminated teams would have to endure their punishment--sitting through multiple tapings of The View AND Oprah. (If the show is filmed on the west coast, the shows will be The Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Ellen.)

Ultimately, the winning team would get a treasure trove of prizes and its own show: The Real World: Guantanamo.

___________________________________________
* Nah. Okay, okay...maybe.

Richard

04-01-2010, 07:08

So You Say You Want a Revolution?

I didn't know you watched Glen Beck!

"Hey - I'm just sayin..."

Richard

Paslode

04-01-2010, 07:13

Paslode--

I'm not quite seeing your point. In the post below, you seem to be suggesting that people should not be allowed "to pick on people" and that the invective directed at the Huratees "should be illegal."

Yet, not long ago, you were willing to brand certain politicians as enemies of America if they sought to bypass the constitution <<LINK1 (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320433&postcount=16)>> and <<LINK2 (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320440&postcount=18)>>.

How would legislation making certain types of speech illegal not fall into the very same category of behavior you deplored? :confused:

I believe what you are asking is do I think it should be illegal to arrest the Huratees because they think strangely or take the law into their on hands. The answer is no, if they did what is alleged. On the other hand if there were fingered to further an agenda I see shades of Waco.

And yes I still deplore tactics that bypass the Constitution.

Paslode

04-01-2010, 07:15

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/31/enemies-of-the-state/print/

CROWLEY: Enemies of the state

Monica Crowley

During President George W. Bush's two terms, you couldn't drive far without seeing a particular bumper sticker: "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Now that Democrats control the White House and Congress, the left treats dissent as the lowest form of treason. When the left agitates over government policies, it's considered righteous anger. When the right - and much of the center - agitate, it's painted as the rantings of the criminally and violently insane.

With Obamacare signed into law, Democrats have stopped congratulating themselves long enough to notice that the American people aren't cheering on the sidelines. According to a CNN poll released last week, 58 percent oppose President Obama's handling of Obamacare, while Gallup shows him this week with a 46 percent job approval, his lowest yet. A CBS poll released after the House of Representatives passed Obamacare showed Speaker Nancy Pelosi's favorable rating at 11 percent and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's at 8 percent, higher only than Beelzebub's.

Aware that their "reform" is rejected by most of the American people and that they will face serious consequences in November, the Democrats have decided that the best defense is a good offense: Attack those who oppose Obamacare. It doesn't seem to bother most Democrats that that pernicious strategy puts them in the weird and politically untenable position of attacking most of the American people.

Over the past week, a parade of Democrats have accused members of the Tea Party movement and other opponents of Obamacare of threatening them. There may be an infinitesimal number of looney tunes who have engaged in that kind of unacceptable behavior out of hundreds of millions of Americans. But the Democrats have dishonestly extrapolated from a few claimed incidents to taint all those who reject Obamacare as wild-eyed wackos.

If this sounds familiar, it's because the Democrats have shown a disturbing pattern of demonizing those who disagree with them. A year ago, Mr. Obama's Department of Homeland Security issued a report for law enforcement called "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment." It suggested that anyone who opposed abortion, illegal immigration and oppressive taxes, supported gun rights or served in Iraq and Afghanistan should be singled out for special attention. Why? Because such people might burst into a spasm of violence at any time. There was no mention of being on the lookout for potential violence committed by Islamic jihadists, even after actual acts of violence committed by an Islamic jihadist in Little Rock. (The Fort Hood shooting happened later.)

In other words, if you go to church, believe in protecting innocent life, own a gun or defend your country, the Democrats consider you a potential enemy of the state. It was no coincidence that the Homeland Security report was issued just as the Tea Party movement was gaining real national traction.

Not surprisingly, then, once they had passed their widely unpopular health care bill, the Democrats moved quickly to delegitimize opposition to it. Their defiant move in the face of overwhelming popular resistance gave them another excuse to equate big-government progressives with good patriots and small government advocates with potentially violent nutcases who must be watched.

As if on cue, this week, Homeland Security, the FBI and the Department of Justice's Joint Terrorism Task Force carried out raids against a purported "Christian militia group" in the Midwest. According to reports, nine people have been charged with plotting to kill police officers with "weapons of mass destruction." The indictment describes the group as an "anti-government extremist organization" and the FBI special agent in charge, Andrew Arena, cast it as "radical and fringe." That may be, but the description has a conveniently familiar ring to it.

Interestingly, the head of the Michigan branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Dawud Walid, rushed to announce the raids at a CAIR banquet at about the same time the story became public. "We salute the FBI for breaking up a militia that was seeking to harm American Muslims," he said. It's curious that he would know that at a time when the FBI still had the investigation under seal. (We're still waiting to hear why Homeland Security and the FBI chose to use the descriptive word "Christian" when they seem unable to use the word "Muslim" in connection with Islamic extremism.)

It's mind-blowingly coincidental that these raids on a supposedly "Christian" militia group would come at the exact moment that Democrats were trying to change public opinion on Obamacare by claiming persecution by their opponents. They have cast Tea Partiers, conservatives, independents, Christians and militia members as all cut from the same unstable, volatile cloth. How can anyone take their opposition to the Democrats' agenda seriously when they're toting guns and being raided by Homeland Security and the FBI? They're all nuts, don't you know?

The Democrats handle dissent by isolating it, smearing it and delegitimizing it in order to crush it. The warning should be clear: If you have small-government, traditional values, you may be considered by your own leadership to be an enemy of the state.

Monica Crowley is a nationally syndicated radio host, a panelist on "The McLaughlin Group" and a Fox News contributor.

Richard

04-01-2010, 07:30

And yes I still deploy tactics that bypass the Constitution.

And for what purpose(s) do you 'deploy' them? :confused:

Are you a Hutaree, too? :rolleyes:

Richard

Green Light

04-01-2010, 08:43

Explain please.

Sorry, I hit the wrong smilie - I was trying to hit the "stick out tongue" smilie but wasn't wearing my 'puter glasses. Kinda comes across differently that way. (I was wondering what the "Settle down, Francis" was about)

That's one reason why I'm not a sniper anymore. :p

Utah Bob

04-01-2010, 09:13

Sorry, I hit the wrong smilie - I was trying to hit the "stick out tongue" smilie but wasn't wearing my 'puter glasses. Kinda comes across differently that way. (I was wondering what the "Settle down, Francis" was about)

That's one reason why I'm not a sniper anymore. :p

Actually the line was "Lighten up Francis" (Warren Oates as Sgt Hulka to Psycho) in STRIPES. A fine movie.:D

Defender968

04-01-2010, 10:24

Pick on.....it would be the first time in recent history.....a group of useful idiots in Waco, TX that had to be stormed with tanks. That was overkill by the Feds, you would have thought they were the Taliban stocked with RPG's. And I heard many times, including on PS.com that Koresh could easily been picked up on his trips to town and the mass loss of life could have been avoided.
Poorly handled, different time, different case, and not relevant to this discussion unless there are actors that were involved in both

Ignore we do it all the time. Like we ignore the the friendly Muslims training facilirties like in Islamburg? How about all those students that run back and forth to Pakistan to further their education?

Paslode if you have some ACCURATE and CURRENT INTEL on illegal activity going on at one of the Islamaburg locations around the country please forward it on and I’ll see it makes it to the appropriate fusion cell as I can assure you there are lots of people who would like to hear/see it.

See there is a difference between the Hutaree idiots and those at Islamaburg, and that is that to my knowledge those at Islamaburg aren’t flapping their gums about killing cops and taking over the government, are they planning it, probably, but guess what a suspicion is not sufficient to take out a warrant or make an arrest, you need this thing called probable cause otherwise you as the LEO are breaking the law, and as this is not a fascist state you are still innocent until proven guilty and can’t just be arrested because someone feels like it thankfully. See the folks at Islamaburg are playing by the rules (much as it pains me and many others in LE and the Military), and the constitution that I have sworn an oath to protect still applies even if there are those in DC who have been ignoring it for some time, and it says you have the right to believe in any religion you wish, even if we don’t like that religion or what it preaches, it says you have the freedom of speech, even if we don’t like what you have to say, and it says you can own and train with weapons with some restrictions (which the folks at Hutaree violated according to the affidavit, those at Islamaburg have not to my knowledge) If we ignore the constitution and go scoop those at Islamaburg without a warrant or probably cause who’s next, maybe you maybe me… it’s a slippery slope and one that I don’t want to go down.

Look up the many post on here from Warrior Mentor on Islam in America.

Paslode I am well aware of the threat of Islam in America, are they the biggest threat, absolutely, but to think they are the only threat out there is naive at best. See those who are protecting your rights have to take the threats as they come, sometimes you get the big ones, and some time you have to go after the little ones.

The wide brush of the Feds by way of Special Interest advisers associating Ron Paul Supporters, Conservatives, Christians, Military Personnel, The Tea Party, Militias and Racists...... Maybe you didn't read it, but there was this trash put out by DHS called MIAC Report! I am sure Mark Potak and SPLC are jumping for joy over the Hutaree bust!

I’ve read the reports, and I am a Conservative, a current member of the military, believe the Tea Party has many valid concerns and was raised Christian, so I’ve got a dog in this fight, but a couple of memos sent out by a few bad apples does not mean that everyone in Federal LE are leftist operatives anymore than these Hutaree folks being idiots wanting to kill LEOs mean that all Christian Ron Paul Supporters are anti government nut jobs. See you don’t seem to understand something, you say Feds as if they are the borg, these organizations are made up of individuals just like any other organization, some are good some are bad. You are accusing the Feds of painting with a wide brush, well hey pot you’re black.

Actually if you read back through there it Team Sargent, not TR.....but to answer your question. I don't have issue over the arrest, if you say your going to kill someone you need to be dealt with. My issue or feeling is that there far worse folks out there who are tacticians, who don't blow smoke up each others asses, who don't make themselves visible on YouTube and MAYBE because of brick throwing, a lot of pissed off people over HCR and the economic state we're in someone decided we needed to make an example of some useful idiots.

My apologies I miss typed but you are missing the point, LE is not an either or type of business, you often have many investigations going at any given time, you don’t just ignore a threat because they’re not the ones you would like to get right now, it seems to me that you lack even the most basic understanding of that which you are so ardently trying to criticize, which does not make for a compelling argument.

In reference to your issue or feelings, you feel that there are worse folks out there, you know what you’re right there are, so under your theory of LE I guess we don’t need beat cops any more to answer those mundane calls because there are more important things going on, I think all the folks who get aid from a local beat cop today might disagree with you, but what do I know…:rolleyes:

Might I make a suggestion, if you FEEL so strongly about how screwed up people in Fed/local LE are, maybe you should pick up a weapon and put your life and future on the line and try to make it better instead of sitting here armchair quarterbacking them without even the slightest understanding of how the entire system works or what they do.

RichL025

04-01-2010, 17:27

Actually the line was "Lighten up Francis" (Warren Oates as Sgt Hulka to Psycho) in STRIPES. A fine movie.:D

Rats! I stand corrected, sir....

Team Sergeant

04-01-2010, 18:37

I believe what you are asking is do I think it should be illegal to arrest the Huratees because they think strangely or take the law into their on hands. The answer is no, if they did what is alleged. On the other hand if there were fingered to further an agenda I see shades of Waco.

And yes I still deploy tactics that bypass the Constitution.

You got me with that also......you deploy men and equipment, you employ tactics. (I could be wrong, J/K, I'm not wrong.:D)

These individuals were idiots and if what the news media is stating is correct and they were targeting cops, they need some long jail terms.

Peregrino

04-01-2010, 19:02

And yes I still deploy tactics that bypass the Constitution.

What I sincerely hope you meant to say is "I still DEPLORE tactics that bypass the Constitution". I would think less of anyone who felt otherwise.

Paslode

04-02-2010, 03:26

What I sincerely hope you meant to say is "I still DEPLORE tactics that bypass the Constitution". I would think less of anyone who felt otherwise.

You are correct, it was deplore.

2-3 am, the netbook, low visibility and big fingers.....Thanks for the heads up.

Last hard class

04-02-2010, 05:36

The raids may be a response to alleged threats members of this group made against members of the religion of peace. I am awaiting the FBI raids on the numerous Jamaat ul-Fuqra compounds located throughout the USA.

Don't sell big brother short on this just yet. IMO there must be some value to wait. Where as these boneheads probably have little upside in the trade off department. It was time to roll 'em up.

Paslode

04-02-2010, 20:38

You got me with that also......you deploy men and equipment, you employ tactics. (I could be wrong, J/K, I'm not wrong.:D)

These individuals were idiots and if what the news media is stating is correct and they were targeting cops, they need some long jail terms.

Idiots might be too kind, one example of Kris Sickles, aka "Pale Horse.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/scar_my_tattered_body_no_more_with_your_punishing. php

Richard

04-03-2010, 08:18

Intelligent lookin' bunch of ffolkes... :rolleyes:

Utah Bob

04-03-2010, 18:52

Good Lord. One of them has a mullet!

98G

04-03-2010, 21:06

Good Lord. One of them has a mullet!

It almost goes without saying that at least one of them would sport a mullet. And thank you Richard for posting the photo array. Photos like that are what kept me out of the woods in western PA on the first day of deer season as a teenager. My Dad would just pull out the news clippings from the last year's accidental deaths and take me to the range instead.

As Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid."

ZonieDiver

04-04-2010, 00:02

Intelligent lookin' bunch of ffolkes... :rolleyes:

A late-nineteenth or early-twentieth century phrenologist could have had a heyday with some of those heads! I haven't seen foreheads like some of those since my anthropology classes looking at Neanderthal skulls!

Dozer523

04-04-2010, 09:23

A late-nineteenth or early-twentieth century phrenologist could have had a heyday with some of those heads! I haven't seen foreheads like some of those since my anthropology classes looking at Neanderthal skulls! Great post.:D I guess that's why the Caveman keeps walking off the set.

So easy a Hutaree could do it in three tries.

Richard

04-04-2010, 10:51

Wonder if they have Geico insurance, too? :p

Richard

Utah Bob

04-04-2010, 19:48

Wonder if they have Geico insurance, too? :p

Richard

I'm sure a smooth talking Gecko could sell them anything.
:rolleyes:

Don

04-06-2010, 13:30

Dozer523

04-06-2010, 14:27

. . .
I think it is not coincidental that something like this happened during this recent period of civil unrest...and specifically right after the government forced thru legislation without consent of the governed. Although we have not had riots, there is something growing among regular Joes that I think have people in DC very nervous and which they view as a real threat. How do you send a message to those folks? Show them what can happen if you openly express opposition to the Government. How do you figure this part? (I presume you are referring to Healthcare legislation.) The bill came before the duly elected Representatives and Senators from all the states. There was debate (boy was there) there was a vote. The Yea's were there and the nays were not there. Where is the lack of consent? OR maybe your concern is the part about the governed? You are ONE of the governed, sure, but just cuz you got what YOU didn't want doesn't really make "without consent, does it? ( Last go round I didn't want the Iraq War but I sucked it up.) You might not like it but that doesn't make it Presidential usurpation.
Heck you had a couple of chances to kill the Healthcare bill -- you could defeated B in November (Nope). You coulda elected a Republican Congress (not by a long shot). You (metaphorically speaking) coulda come up with a better plan that not only you liked but more Americans liked too. Oh Well, maybe years from now we'll hate it as much as Medi-care.

Defender968

04-06-2010, 15:54

I was re-reading this thread to see if anyone else was thinking along similar lines as myself…or whether or not I needed to stop by the tinfoil hat store on my way home from work today.

I think it is not coincidental that something like this happened during this recent period of civil unrest...and specifically right after the government forced thru legislation without consent of the governed. Although we have not had riots, there is something growing among regular Joes that I think have people in DC very nervous and which they view as a real threat. How do you send a message to those folks? Show them what can happen if you openly express opposition to the Government.

What do we know about the plot to ambush a police officer, kill a policeman’s family, and subsequently kill attendees at a funeral? Well, we know exactly what somebody has chosen to release to the media. We surely don’t have the full story. How many guys here, EVER, over a beer with buddies have discussed something like…”Hell, if you want to cause a real shitstorm at (name the location) I would (describe your operation to bust thru the gate, take out the guards, blow the building, and escape) . Basically, “this is how I’d do it…”.

I do understand these were not just a group of guys in a bar, but an actual organization. But it would be intersting to see what evidence is presented in court. If the undercover agent, when discussing how he heard of the plot to kill the officer says, "we were in a bar drinking and Mr. Gitcheegoomie said, "Hell, if you want to cause a real shitstorm at (name the location) this is how I’d do it..." I will not be surprised. I have much higher expectations of federal LE...but if this has any political influence, all bets are off.

My comments are not a defense of the Hutaree. I do not agree with what little I have seen of their belief system and I disagree with almost all of the limited stuff I have seen from their own website . The “evil Jew” forum is ass-hattery of the highest degree.

MHO is…it is possible these fools were tagged for political purposes. I suppose we will see when they get to court.

Let me play devil’s advocate here,

IIRC one of charges levied against them was charged with conspiracy to commit sedition, which again IIRC is not JUST saying you were going to do something, but also acting in a manner that would lead a reasonable person to believe you intended to carry out on your threat (I'm not an expert on this particular federal law but I did read up on it a while back), i.e. planning and acquiring the supplies necessary to carry out your threat which from what I've read they did, i.e. building pipe bombs and teaching their members to make said illegal devices.

Now I suppose a federal LE agent could have been in the bar when the statement was said and that was how the ATF became involved but I think that's unlikely, more likely the ATF or another agency has been keeping an eye on them and on their electronic communications due to their extremist views.

Before anyone screams 1st amendment one way to do so without a warrant would be simply monitoring chat boards with extremist views as a registered user, and then if threats are made to track down the user...all perfectly legal and very effective, and probably how this went down IMO. (That's why you should always be careful what you put out into the virtual world....someone is always watching,:) )

Now could this whole thing been drummed up….kind of but you’d have to have a suspect/subject that was doing all the wrong things to get it to work. If a fed decided to come after let’s say my folks they would have to plant/fabricate a ton of evidence because there would be nothing there to work with, read violate their oath and break the law and risk going to jail themselves, and I don’t see that as very likely, one person may be willing to risk their career and freedom for a political view, but getting multiple folks to do so is a whole different scenario IMO. Remember this kind of investigation isn’t being done by high level politicians who have a political agenda, it’s being carried out by field agents, if it were directed from above and there was any impropriety someone would be screaming…because 2 people can keep a secret only if one of them is dead. :)

I’m not saying it couldn’t be a conspiracy, but there are an awful lot of moving parts here, and if it were a conspiracy I would expect it to come to light quickly because all it takes is one person to call foul and blow the whole deal.

Don

04-06-2010, 17:27

How do you figure this part? (I presume you are referring to Healthcare legislation.) The bill came before the duly elected Representatives and Senators from all the states. There was debate (boy was there) there was a vote. The Yea's were there and the nays were not there. Where is the lack of consent? OR maybe your concern is the part about the governed? You are ONE of the governed, sure, but just cuz you got what YOU didn't want doesn't really make "without consent, does it? ( Last go round I didn't want the Iraq War but I sucked it up.) You might not like it but that doesn't make it Presidential usurpation.
Heck you had a couple of chances to kill the Healthcare bill -- you could defeated B in November (Nope). You coulda elected a Republican Congress (not by a long shot). You (metaphorically speaking) coulda come up with a better plan that not only you liked but more Americans liked too. Oh Well, maybe years from now we'll hate it as much as Medi-care.

Dozer...polling says a majority of Americans did not want healthcare. I understand the concept of representative government. Lack of consent is the people telling their reps to not do it...and they do it anyway. That's my opinion. Neither of us can prove absolutely either way that the representatives votes were IAW the wishes of their constituents. BTW...my district is republican, and my state went to McCain. I did my part so all this YOU HAD the opportunity to ___ stuff doesn't apply to me...and i was none to pleased with Kosovo, Iraq, or Afghanistan myself. Why the attack?

My post had little to do with the legislative issue of health care much to do with perceptions that it borders on tyranny. Haven't heard much about militias in over a decade until media starts spinning tea party involvement in the militias. Now, we are discussing WACO. How about the Special Forces Underground? All that crap happened over 15 years ago.

My point is not that something didn't happen, with the Hutaree, but I am asking if maybe this was more politically slanted than straight law-enforcement. Did they jump the gun. There is three sides to every story, and right now we have one.

Paslode

04-06-2010, 18:05

How do you figure this part? (I presume you are referring to Healthcare legislation.) The bill came before the duly elected Representatives and Senators from all the states. There was debate (boy was there) there was a vote. The Yea's were there and the nays were not there. Where is the lack of consent? OR maybe your concern is the part about the governed? You are ONE of the governed, sure, but just cuz you got what YOU didn't want doesn't really make "without consent, does it? ( Last go round I didn't want the Iraq War but I sucked it up.) You might not like it but that doesn't make it Presidential usurpation.
Heck you had a couple of chances to kill the Healthcare bill -- you could defeated B in November (Nope). You coulda elected a Republican Congress (not by a long shot). You (metaphorically speaking) coulda come up with a better plan that not only you liked but more Americans liked too. Oh Well, maybe years from now we'll hate it as much as Medi-care.

Unfortunately, I would attend to agree with you all accounts of the political mumbo jumbo. The question becomes 'The Governed' aka We the People and what WE want versus what our 'Elected Officials' deem we need or want.

Taking your example to the far reaches of extreme, we elected these folks to represent us, so if our Representatives and Senators debate the use of genocide on the Homeless for months on end, and then approve it though a majority Vote and it becomes Law, against the wishes of The Governed........we're stuck with that decision until we can change it.

Or a maybe, we elected these folks to represent us, so if our Representatives and Senators debate the Mandatory Prescribing Ritalin to all children K-12 to enhance learning and behavior for months on end, and then approve it though a majority Vote and it becomes Law, against the wishes of majority of The Governed..... we're stuck with that decision until we can change it.

Or a bit less extreme, we elected these folks to represent us, so if our Representatives and Senators debate the Mandatory Purchase of a GM vehicles for months on end, and then approve it though a majority Vote and it becomes Law, against the wishes of majority of The Governed..... we're stuck with that decision until we can change it.

Are the Governed supposed to suck it up, allow the madness no matter what?

Paslode

04-06-2010, 18:33

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2010/03/causus-belli.html

Monday, March 29, 2010
Casus Belli

The first thing that must be understood is that while the murder of any human being is the most serious crime one can commit, it is not necessarily a crime to kill a police officer.

Defensive use of lethal force against criminal aggression is morally legitimate and legally protected, even -- no, make that "especially" -- when the aggressor is clothed in the habiliments of the state's punitive priesthood. This is not the view of some obscure, unsavory self-styled Christian militia group from Michigan. It is the long-established view of the United States Supreme Court as expressed more than a century ago in the ruling John Bad Elk v. The United States.

John Bad Elk, a Lakota Indian living on a South Dakota reservation, shot and killed a tribal policeman named John Kills Back, who attempted to carry out an arrest without warrant or probable cause. Bad Elk was convicted of murder after the Judge instructed the jury (as paraphrased by the High Court) that "the policeman had the right to arrest [Black Elk] ... and to use such force as was necessary to accomplish the arrest, and that [Black Elk] had no right to resist it."

Under the common law, the High Court pointed out, Black Elk was not obliged to submit to an unlawful arrest, and he "had the right to use such force as was absolutely necessary to resist an attempted illegal arrest...." Furthermore, ruled the Court, "the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction when the officer had the right to make the arrest from what it does if the officer had no such right. What might be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed." (Emphasis added.)

Simply put: As a matter of law, a citizen has an unqualified right to use lethal force to defend himself against a criminal assault by a law enforcement officer. This is not "sedition"; it's stare decisis.

The federal indictment against the Hutaree "Christian militia" describes the group's alleged preparations for potential armed conflict against law enforcement officers as a "seditious conspiracy." Whether this constitutes a criminal conspiracy of any kind depends entirely on whether the group planned to commit aggressive violence against individuals.

If they were acquiring weapons and developing appropriate skills in anticipation of defending themselves against government aggression, their actions-- while possibly conspiratorial in nature -- don't amount to a crime. This is particularly true in light of our cultural history, in which sedition -- agitation to change the existing political order -- is our proudest civic tradition.

Government is nothing more than the rationalization and exercise of violence. Everything done by government contains at least the implicit threat of lethal coercion. Thus the indictment's description of Hutaree as "an anti-government extremist organization which advocates violence against local, state and Federal law enforcement" is a product of rhetorical onanism.

The same is true of the charge that the militia's members "did knowingly conspire, confederate, and agree with each other and other persons known and unknown" -- great googlymoogly, do federal prosecutors pay their scribes by the syllable? -- "to levy war against the United States, to oppose by force the authority of the Government of the United States, and to prevent, hinder, and delay by force the execution of any United States law."

If Hutaree was preparing for armed defense against criminal actions by government officials, this charge is as pointless as a broken pencil. If their efforts to "prevent, hinder, and delay" various government initiatives were confined to activism, rather than armed conflict, they are -- in that particular -- not substantively different from hundreds or thousands of other groups.

Once again, the gravamen here is the question of aggressive violence. As paraphrased by the Regime's media stenographers, the charges against Hutaree are digested into a "plot to kill law enforcement officers." This would allegedly entail murdering one policeman and then ambushing others who would attend the Soviet-style paramilitary ritual that occurs on those rare occasions a police officer is killed in the line of duty.

Rather than providing specific details, referring to particular witnesses, or alluding to other material evidence, the indictment repeatedly refers to Hutaree's "general concept of operations." To whose "concept" does this refer -- the specific, overtly stated intentions of the militia members, or the way those intentions were conceived by federal authorities or their allied left-wing "watchdog" activists? Was this "concept of operations" committed to print, or captured on an audio or video record? Was there a specific plan, or were there outbursts of ill-considered speculation or depraved wishful thinking?

In studiously vague language, the federal indictment alleges that "one officer in particular" had been identified as a potential murder target. Plotting to murder another human being is a crime, of course, as is preparing to murder others who would assemble for a funeral.

These matters are questions of fact dependent on evidence not outlined in the indictment. Given that cases of this kind often end in plea bargains before they go to trial, it's possible we may never learn what, if any, evidence supports the most serious charges against the group.

Hutaree, we are told, is a violent cult. FBI Special Agent Andrew Arena referred to Hutaree as typical of the "radical and extremist fringe groups that can be found throughout our society." It may well be a dangerous little sect; like nearly everyone else, I hadn't heard of the group prior to yesterday (March 28), so I can't offer an adequately informed opinion of its intentions. At least some of those involved in other citizen militia groups in Michigan were leery of Hutaree, suspecting that it was seeking to provoke a civil war.

Whatever is eventually learned about Hutaree, as things presently stand the indictment against it could provide a template for "seditious conspiracy" prosecutions involving practically any group that endorses the use of defensive force to protect citizens against government aggression.

Indeed, the definition of "conspiracy" used in the Hutaree indictment could make a criminal out of anyone who reads Federalist Paper 46 in public, thereby sharing James Madison's commendably seditious admonition that the people preserve "the advantage of being armed" in the event that insurrection against the central government proves necessary in order to preserve liberty.

The tri-state crack-down against Hutaree, which involved what was described as a "batallion" of state, local, and federal troops (there's little point in using the term "police" any more), is the largest but by no means only recent campaign of its kind.

Last week the Feds reeled in several members of a properly ignominious Connecticut neo-Nazi street gang calling itself the White Wolves.

The White Wolves crackdown followed the familiar outline:

A federal informant (in this case, a convicted felon acting as a "cooperating witness") infiltrates a tiny and all but inconsequential clique of petty criminals, incites them to commit an "overt" criminal act (in this case by asking them to sell him firearms). The feds then draw up a grandiose indictment depicting that the little knot of skinheads as a world-historic menace.

As is true of the case against the Hutaree militia, the White Wolves indictment is a bureaucratic confection -- a wedding cake-sized pile of rhetorical meringue concealing a criminal complaint the size of a small Twinkie.

The objective here -- and, most likely in the Feds' prosecution of the Hutaree militia -- is to induce at least one or more members of the targeted group to join the pool of infiltrator/provocateus for use against other targeted groups.

Paslode

04-06-2010, 18:35

-continued-

The dynamics of this routine are a bit like multi-level marketing: The federal handler -- usually an FBI Special Agent assigned to a Joint Terrorism Task Force -- serves as the "upline" to a small stable of provocateurs, each of which is highly motivated to create a large "downline" of similarly compromised assets. As with many other MLMs, nothing of value is actually accomplished, but the people at the top of the pyramid -- in this case, the Homeland Security bureaucrats -- make a very comfortable living.

In times of relative tranquility, that cynical exercise provides career security for Homeland Security functionaries. There's reason to believe that the Feds have expanded and escalated this ongoing enterprise to exploit, and exacerbate, growing public hostility toward an increasingly invasive and esurient government.

Whether it is ever demonstrated that Hutaree intended to "levy war" against the U.S. government, this much is beyond serious dispute: The Homeland Security state is unambiguously preparing for war with the public -- in fact, it has been doing so for a long time.

During a 1997 visit to the Battle Command Training Program at Ft. Leavenworth, author Robert Kaplan frequently heard "discussion of the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids the National Guard to act as a local police force once it has been federalized by the army in a civil emergency," he recalled in his book An Empire Wilderness. "The implication was that turbulence within the United States might one day require the act to be repealed."

Kaplan describes a round-table discussion of potential military action against domestic dissident groups. One Marine Major, referring to the Oklahoma City Bombing (an atrocity carried out by a former federal employee and "others" who remain "unknown"), declared: "The minute I heard about Oklahoma City, I knew who did it -- rednecks, the kind of guys from southern Idaho."

According to Kaplan, that officer and another of the same rank "suggested that `a time might come when the military will have to go domestic.'"

In the strictest sense, that was a treasonable utterance -- a threat, by people in a position with the means to carry it into effect, to wage war against the people of the "united States in Congress assembled."

When talk of that kind is indulged in by members of a tiny, disreputable club, it is labeled "seditious conspiracy" involving "weapons of mass destruction" -- that is, homemade explosives. When such talk reflects the shared opinion of armed functionaries of the Regime -- people with access to the largest and most destructive arsenal ever assembled, and a growing foreign body count demonstrating a willingness to use it -- this is a sober, responsible discussion of Homeland Security affairs.

Apparently, it's sound public policy for the government to wage war against the citizenry, but a federal offense to take notice of that fact.

GratefulCitizen

04-06-2010, 18:39

Criminal activities need to be addressed.

The problem is not the timing of government action.
The problem is media spin.

This story is media fodder.
Who is the target of the media spin?

I believe the target of the media spin are the unthinking/undecided.

Those who have decided won't be swayed.
Those who think require actual performance to be swayed.

The narrow(?) swath of unthinking voters steers the course of history.

Defender968

04-06-2010, 18:52

-continued-

Interesting perspective, not applicable here IMO but interesting none the less..... the affidavit I read stated that the Hutaree were planning on making a bogus 911 call and then ambushing the responding officer..... You can't claim self defense when you start the fight with a sucker punch.

I'm the first one to call BS on an arrest or a search that's not legal and I’m not the only one in LE that feels this way, in fact the majority do in my experience. I've personally done it on several occasions when an overzealous coworker was about to overstep his and the laws bounds.

Paslode

04-06-2010, 18:53

GratefulCitizen

04-06-2010, 19:32

So what your saying is that the media is lacking journalistic integrity and is serving an agenda correct? Who's agenda is the MSM fullfiling?

I lean to the right, but I don't think the fact that MSM leans left is the problem.
I believe there are two problems.

First, the media seeks to expand its own power rather than check government power (they're fulfilling their own agenda).
They just happen to be staffed largely by those with left-leaning views.
If they were staffed by those with right-leaning views, it would still be corruption and threaten liberty.

Second, there is a problem with too many of the sheeple not thinking for themselves.
IMO, this is the greatest threat to liberty.

When people don't think for themselves, they become tools for those who seek power for power's sake.
The inevitable end is mass slaughter of those refusing the yoke of slavery, political persuasions notwithstanding.

Don't have a problem with people believing or acting how they want, so long as they don't impose it upon others.

Paslode

04-06-2010, 19:50

I lean to the right, but I don't think the fact that MSM leans left is the problem.
I believe there are two problems.

First, the media seeks to expand its own power rather than check government power (they're fulfilling their own agenda).
They just happen to be staffed largely by those with left-leaning views.
If they were staffed by those with right-leaning views, it would still be corruption and threaten liberty.

Second, there is a problem with too many of the sheeple not thinking for themselves.
IMO, this is the greatest threat to liberty.

When people don't think for themselves, they become tools for those who seek power for power's sake.
The inevitable end is mass slaughter of those refusing the yoke of slavery, political persuasions notwithstanding.

Don't have a problem with people believing or acting how they want, so long as they don't impose it upon others.

Sounds like were in agreement. Though I tend to harbor the feeling that MSNBC has sinister intent.

Don

04-07-2010, 06:07

What do we know about the plot to ambush a police officer, kill a policeman’s family, and subsequently kill attendees at a funeral? Well, we know exactly what somebody has chosen to release to the media. We surely don’t have the full story.

The only documentation I have seen from law enforcement is the grand jury indictment. I have not yet seen an affidavit (as Defender noted in his post) from anyone regarding the plot. If he meant Indictment instead of affidavit, that’s one thing. If there is an affidavit out there please post it so we can better understand the context of the charges.

Again, I am not defending the Hutaree, but I am skeptical about the motivations of federal authorities at times. For some reason, this incident has made me go “Hmmmmmmm”. Having watched the militia witch hunt that followed the Oklahoma City bombing, I could not for the life of me figure out why the media was at Ft Bragg making a national story over the Resistor. 60 minutes showed up at Bragg and interviewed guys from 7th, 3rd, and SWC regarding the SF Underground. I never met anyone in SF that said they were a member of the underground, or a militia, or expressed any desire to join/establish/lead any type of group like that. I am not saying people like that don’t exist in SF…I am just saying that is my personal experience and as they say, “experiences may vary”.

This site is generally an excellent barometer of opinion for me. So when reading thru this topic I saw a definite group opinion that was not consistent with the way I was looking at the situation, I started asking myself, “Is it time for the tinfoil Captains hat…or a lead-lined Fedora.” :p

My thought is not that there is some group conspiracy from FBI agents to quash civil rights. I do realize, however, the Director of the FBI is a political appointment (the President picks the person), unlike the agents that execute the mission. I drew a personal conclusion that there was something not exactly right with this. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, alluding to an idea the Hutaree are totally innocent, God-fearing, “people next door”, because clearly they are not like anyone I have ever associated. I do live in Georgia, but I haven’t yet been invited to an AR-15 themed wedding, and we all know from looking at “redneck wedding photos” how crazy Bubba and his kin can get. :D

My apologies if I overstepped the “rhetoric line” by using the term “consent of the governed”. I wanted to generate discussion not get into a knife-fight over healthcare legislation. I just thought it a necessary inject to explain how we get from point A (Government doing something very unpopular) to point B (Militia group plotting against Government) to point C (silence the critics). Hopefully this clears it up a bit.

Paslode

04-07-2010, 07:57

My apologies if I overstepped the “rhetoric line” by using the term “consent of the governed”. I wanted to generate discussion not get into a knife-fight over healthcare legislation. I just thought it a necessary inject to explain how we get from point A (Government doing something very unpopular) to point B (Militia group plotting against Government) to point C (silence the critics). Hopefully this clears it up a bit.

It may not have been the Hutaree's beef, but HCR is presently at the head a growing list of grievances many of the 'governed' have with those elected officials they feel blatantly disregard their wishes, violate their oaths and whom are intent of taking from them for the sake of others. So HCR is a good example of how turbulent and divisive the political air is at present.

In our perfect world as Dozer explained we made a choice, and we can steer it back towards course come November.....maybe :rolleyes:

I get all points A-B-C and Dozers.

But when groups like SPLC are issuing the talking points on Domestic Terror, the Feds distribute it and use it as the model and a Government that is perceived by many as drastically overstepping it's bounds...we shouldn't be surprised that the average Sunday go to meeting Joe might began to question what the government is up to and began to wonder how many Novembers we have left.

Defender968

04-07-2010, 08:12

The only documentation I have seen from law enforcement is the grand jury indictment. I have not yet seen an affidavit (as Defender noted in his post) from anyone regarding the plot. If he meant Indictment instead of affidavit, that’s one thing. If there is an affidavit out there please post it so we can better understand the context of the charges.

Again, I am not defending the Hutaree, but I am skeptical about the motivations of federal authorities at times. For some reason, this incident has made me go “Hmmmmmmm”. Having watched the militia witch hunt that followed the Oklahoma City bombing, I could not for the life of me figure out why the media was at Ft Bragg making a national story over the Resistor. 60 minutes showed up at Bragg and interviewed guys from 7th, 3rd, and SWC regarding the SF Underground. I never met anyone in SF that said they were a member of the underground, or a militia, or expressed any desire to join/establish/lead any type of group like that. I am not saying people like that don’t exist in SF…I am just saying that is my personal experience and as they say, “experiences may vary”.

This site is generally an excellent barometer of opinion for me. So when reading thru this topic I saw a definite group opinion that was not consistent with the way I was looking at the situation, I started asking myself, “Is it time for the tinfoil Captains hat…or a lead-lined Fedora.” :p

My thought is not that there is some group conspiracy from FBI agents to quash civil rights. I do realize, however, the Director of the FBI is a political appointment (the President picks the person), unlike the agents that execute the mission. I drew a personal conclusion that there was something not exactly right with this. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, alluding to an idea the Hutaree are totally innocent, God-fearing, “people next door”, because clearly they are not like anyone I have ever associated. I do live in Georgia, but I haven’t yet been invited to an AR-15 themed wedding, and we all know from looking at “redneck wedding photos” how crazy Bubba and his kin can get. :D

My apologies if I overstepped the “rhetoric line” by using the term “consent of the governed”. I wanted to generate discussion not get into a knife-fight over healthcare legislation. I just thought it a necessary inject to explain how we get from point A (Government doing something very unpopular) to point B (Militia group plotting against Government) to point C (silence the critics). Hopefully this clears it up a bit.

My apologies I used the term affidavit instead of Indictment, I have read the indictments, not the affidavits, but understand the indictment will have been handed down form a Grand Jury not just LE and prosecutors. That's 6 to 12 regular citizens whom the prosecution has convinced that the defendant has committed the crime stated in the incitement based on LE officers affidavits and the evidence they have gathered. Could it all be BS, anything is possible but like I said before that's allot of moving parts to keep in line, and like any other organization it's hard to get 2 cops to agree on anything let alone risking their careers and freedom to make political points.

Paslode

04-07-2010, 10:55

Interesting perspective, not applicable here IMO but interesting none the less..... the affidavit I read stated that the Hutaree were planning on making a bogus 911 call and then ambushing the responding officer..... You can't claim self defense when you start the fight with a sucker punch.

I'm the first one to call BS on an arrest or a search that's not legal and I’m not the only one in LE that feels this way, in fact the majority do in my experience. I've personally done it on several occasions when an overzealous coworker was about to overstep his and the laws bounds.

That I understand, and a court will decide whether it was fact or stretching the facts. Where I begin to get lost is Seditious Conspiracy and WMD's.

My idea of a WMD is a NBC type weapon, not a pipe bomb, rigged shots shells, etc.

Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. My thoughts on that is that Seditious behavior is quite likely based on your POV or Agenda.

Like many, I feel most if not all of our elected officials in DC have subverted and perverted the Constitution. And by ramming HCR and all the other agendas that are tabled the Administration is inciting discontent. They are also overtly and covertly promoting and advocating resistance.

Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws.... Depending on who making that determination that could encompass The Tea Party, Glen Beck, Limbaugh, SPLC, SEIU, ACORN, Green Peace or any one who openly disagrees with the system in charge.

If Van Jones, Bill Ayers and Jeff Jones are any indication, Hutaree members might one day be considered model citizens worthy of educating youth and advising the President on domestic policy.

ZonieDiver

04-07-2010, 11:46

If Van Jones, Bill Ayers and Jeff Jones are any indication, Hutaree members might one day be considered model citizens worthy of educating youth and advising the President on domestic policy.

Only if THIS guy is President of the United States...

Paslode

04-07-2010, 12:05

Only if THIS guy is President of the United States...

:D:D:D you never know what strange things 2012 might bring

Don

04-07-2010, 12:16

My apologies I used the term affidavit instead of Indictment, I have read the indictments, not the affidavits, but understand the indictment will have been handed down form a Grand Jury not just LE and prosecutors. That's 6 to 12 regular citizens whom the prosecution has convinced that the defendant has committed the crime stated in the incitement based on LE officers affidavits and the evidence they have gathered.

The only information that is presented to the Grand Jury is what the District Attorney wants to present. 6 to 12 reasonable individuals get to decide if there is merit to the case based on what they are given by the DA. There is no right for the defense to present material, testimony, witnesses in grand jury proceedings.

Dozer523

04-07-2010, 13:07

Dozer...polling says a majority of Americans did not want healthcare. I understand the concept of representative government. Lack of consent is the people telling their reps to not do it...and they do it anyway. That's my opinion. Neither of us can prove absolutely either way that the representatives votes were IAW the wishes of their constituents. BTW...my district is republican, and my state went to McCain. I did my part so all this YOU HAD the opportunity to ___ stuff doesn't apply to me...and i was none to pleased with Kosovo, Iraq, or Afghanistan myself.
Why the attack? . . .
Don, I did say "You (metaphorically speaking) coulda . . . " And the last thing I intended to do in my post was lecture you on the legislative process and especially there was no intent to attack or offend.

Don

04-07-2010, 17:34

Don, I did say "You (metaphorically speaking) coulda . . . " And the last thing I intended to do in my post was lecture you on the legislative process and especially there was no intent to attack or offend.

You're the Man, Brother...it's all good. HC is a touchy subject all the way around. We both knew what we meant. Sometimes things come across differently than what was intended. I obviously didn't make my point very well, or in the right manner the first go-around.

Defender968

04-07-2010, 19:55

The only information that is presented to the Grand Jury is what the District Attorney wants to present. 6 to 12 reasonable individuals get to decide if there is merit to the case based on what they are given by the DA. There is no right for the defense to present material, testimony, witnesses in grand jury proceedings.

You are correct, what I was trying to say but communicated poorly is that there are others involved here who have a hand in the system, parties who are uninterested in the political consequences and have nothing to gain. Having disinterested people involved in the system makes a conspiracy harder, not impossible but harder.

Don

04-08-2010, 07:15

You are correct, what I was trying to say but communicated poorly is that there are others involved here who have a hand in the system, parties who are uninterested in the political consequences and have nothing to gain. Having disinterested people involved in the system makes a conspiracy harder, not impossible but harder.

But, where I kind of differ is not that there is a conspiracy, to throw these guys in jail forever to send a message...but just the act of making the arrests, and the media coverage of the arrests is enough to make the point to the public, whom some in the administration may believe, need to be quieted down a bit.

The head of the FBI is a political appointee. He works for the Administration. If the Administration wants to make an example, this appointee has the ability to ask his lieutenants, “what is our strongest case?” and then direct a takedown. In order to reach the intended goal, the case only needs to be “prima facie” (on first appearance). I am not saying the FBI field grunts were not doing their job, conspiring to make a political statement, falsifying evidence, or trumping up charges. They were quite obviously doing their jobs. I am saying it is not outside the realm of possibility that a political appointee can direct the takedown of this group with evidence that initially appears to be sufficient, reasonable, and explainable to the masses…but insufficient when it finally gets to court. The info the Government provides to the 6-12 disinterested, fair-minded people is exactly what they want to provide to them in order to persuade them that “more likely than not” these charges are valid. What did the Administration/Government/FBI lose in getting the message out?

Is preparing for the zombie apocalypse against the law? How about if your preparations to repel the brain eating hoards include the use of C-4? What if you buy a SATCOM radio so you can talk to other apocalypse survivors on other continents in order to coordinate defense of what is left of the living world? …and I know… I know… I know… the target of the alleged plot was police officers, families, etc… I am just saying, what was the event that “triggered” the arrests? Was there intel that something was imminent? Not a lot of info out there, and I will reserve judgment for a later time. As I said earlier…this whole situation just didn’t sit right with me.

Does anyone else other than Paslode (love the hat on your avatar:p) believe there is any merit to this discussion?

Peregrino

04-08-2010, 08:50

Does anyone else other than Paslode (love the hat on your avatar:p) believe there is any merit to this discussion?

I believe we've exhausted the present utility of this thread. It's probably time to let it rest until the courts have had their say. Sometimes it's straightforward (Freemen Militia, Oklahoma City), sometimes not so much so (Ruby Ridge, Waco). In any event the accused have rights too - and sometimes the courts come down on the side of the accused based on evidence not available to the public during the media feeding frenzy. My .02.

Don

04-08-2010, 09:15

I believe we've exhausted the present utility of this thread. It's probably time to let it rest until the courts have had their say.

Agreed. Out.

Paslode

04-08-2010, 15:22

Does anyone else other than Paslode (love the hat on your avatar:p) believe there is any merit to this discussion?

Merit.....I think the consensus is unanimous, they are highly likely Tin Foil idiots:

Exhibit A: http://cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2010/04/08/candiotti.militia.sound.cnn.

Nuff said, the courts will decide their fate.

My avatar, you like that? ....it represents the worst of both sides of the conspiracy coin.....two of this forums favorite Purveyors of Truth... Alex Jones and Mark Potak :D

Defender968

04-08-2010, 15:48

I am just saying, what was the event that “triggered” the arrests? Was there intel that something was imminent?

To answer your question yes, the Hutaree had a training event coming up that was believed to be either a dry run of the plan or execution of the actual plan, it was on the 24th of this Month IIRC, they also stated on the website that all members needed to contact the command immediately in reference to the "training", thus the timing of the arrests.

Does anyone else other than Paslode (love the hat on your avatar:p) believe there is any merit to this discussion?

I think it's run its course.

Don

04-08-2010, 16:55

I believe we've exhausted the present utility of this thread.

0850

Agreed. Out.

0915

I think it's run its course.

1548

Good call...:cool:

T-Rock

05-03-2010, 21:21

Judge orders release of 9 Hutaree militia members:

http://freep.com/article/20100503/NEWS06/100503031/1319/Judge-orders-release-of-9-Hutaree-militia-members

Paslode

05-04-2010, 00:02

The Judges ruling:

http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/detnews/2010/pdf/0503hutaree.pdf

The freak show continues:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100503/METRO/5030374/Judge-grants-bond-for-Hutaree-militia-members

IMHO the Judge did the right thing. With all the restrictions, these 9 inept cretins won't be going anywhere or doing much of anything for the foreseeable future. I am betting there's a 50/50 chance at least 2 of them fail to follow the rules.

The Score card:

0-2 for the DOJ, DHS, FBI, ATF using the nonsensical SPLC and ADL playbook .....I am sure Mark Potok is doing some editing and the slanderous Gossip Boy is looking for the next MIAC victim.

It's a home run for Alex Jones! He will have a 4 hour tirade tomorrow, sales of Police State 4 will skyrocket, trust in the Alphabet Agencies just took another hit and all those delusional people that believe the MiB are out to get them and throw them in a FEMA camp, we'll right or wrong you just may have confirmed the suspicions of a few more.

Worst of all from my perspective....while the Feds were screwing with July4Patriot and the Hutaree Air Soft Team, New York may have been visited by another returning vacationer from Pakistan and an idiot carrying cyanide.

We can't keep track of Vacationers to Pakistan, Mexican gangs or enforce the immigrations laws but we have plenty of time to screw with 9 Citizens who could quite well be clinically diagnosed as Mentally handicapped in some form.

What a F-ing mess.

A major positive is this fiasco, Judge Roberts is proof positive that not all Judges are Tools of the system and the wheels of justice can and do work for The People....even the stupid ones.