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Soldiers Take Psychiatric Medications for Stress
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/american-soldiers-turning-prescription-drugs-treat-psychological-distress/story?id=10193849
".........Some have unfortunately committed suicide, but ABC News has been told that an increasing number -- at least 8 percent of the force -- are now using pills to treat themselves. Some are turning to antidepressants, such as Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, which are prescribed right on the front lines............."
With the Health Care bill now passed, electric records coming on line with no security and the anti gun attitude of this administration wonder why a number of CC Licenses are going to be regected or pulled? Pistol permit? Sorry, No.
Jeez, what a bunch of weak motherfuckers.
What ever happened to basic survival instinct.
Maybe this suicide trend is mother nature's way of cleaning out the gene pool.
TOMAHAWK9521
03-25-2010, 10:16
Why not let the boys tie one on after serious action and let them sleep it off? Better to have them hung-over and penitent for a short period rather than suicidal. It's not the best idea but it I would think it beats committing them to a lifetime of therapy and psychiatric drugs.
greenberetTFS
03-25-2010, 13:16
Jeez, what a bunch of weak motherfuckers.
What ever happened to basic survival instinct.
Maybe this suicide trend is mother nature's way of cleaning out the gene pool.
I agree with Mike 100%,he's right on target................ :eek::rolleyes::boohoo
Big Teddy :munchin
Go Devil
03-25-2010, 15:02
To quote a door that I had the honor of walking through:
"Hard times don't last, but hard men do."
I have endured very difficlt situations and many of you have as well.
As a young man, it was suggested that chemicals (prescribed and not) would help my situation, but fortunately I looked inside of myself and understood that these substances would only prolong the duration of time between the experiences and the acceptance.
I chose to knuckle-up and deal with the s**t, with a clear mind.
Was it easy, no.
Someday everyone has to deal with misfortune, misdeeds, or just plan horror;
forwarding that day only stunts your growth.
In my opinion, the best pill is the one you don't take.
Dozer523
03-25-2010, 15:24
Jeez, what a bunch of weak motherfuckers.
What ever happened to basic survival instinct.
Maybe this suicide trend is mother nature's way of cleaning out the gene pool. Oh boy, here we go.
I agree with Mike 100%,he's right on target................ :eek::rolleyes::boohoo
Big Teddy :munchin Someone run by Teddy's house. Check the basement for pods.
To quote a door that I had the honor of walking through: "Hard times don't last, but hard men do."
I have endured very difficlt situations and many of you have as well. As a young man, it was suggested that chemicals (prescribed and not) would help my situation, but fortunately I looked inside of myself and understood that these substances would only prolong the duration of time between the experiences and the acceptance.
I chose to knuckle-up and deal with the s**t, with a clear mind. Was it easy, no. Someday everyone has to deal with misfortune, misdeeds, or just plan horror; forwarding that day only stunts your growth. In my opinion, the best pill is the one you don't take. As the Coast Guardsmen run to the rescue boats at the mouth of the Columbia they run under a sign that reads, "You have to go out, you don't have to come back".
Most probably don't plan to drown.
Utah Bob
03-25-2010, 15:29
at least 8 percent of the force -- are now using pills to treat themselves.
Well Duh! Some troops will take pills to "treat themselves" no matter what.:rolleyes:
.
, but in the civ world, very few people have to take them forever. The brain chemicals go wacky-woohoo and the meds put them back in line, and then you get off them.
Hmm. Well guess what. Many people have to take treatment drugs for life or they DO go back to being...ahh..."wacky-woohoo". You don't just pop some pills and then miraculously get "back in line" and get to go off them. There are no simple/quick cures for mental illness, or just being on a pill "for a while".
You can't compare this with the stresses of combat, they're obviously two entirely different worlds.
AngelsSix
03-25-2010, 18:23
Interesting opinions from all sides. I have another, less popular point of view. Has anyone realized that these weak ass kids are coming into the military already screwed in the head from a variety of issues to begin with?
Personal experience:
I am on patrol one night and go to the desk to clear some paperwork. Whence I hear the female at the desk state that "so and so's wife just called here looking for him, he got off post several hours ago and she was concerned because he is supposed to be taking some sort of anti psychotic meds and he hasn't gotten home to take them yet." SCHRREEEEECHHHH!! "WHAT?? Are we talking about one of our members?!" "Yup, I know he's in the parking lot, talking it up with so-and so (a SGT., who had no business messing with an E-2, but that's a whole other issue), but I didn't want a domestic on my hands, so I didn't tell her he was here."
Turns out this kid went nuts, completely unhinged not long after that. I had two questions. How did he get in the military with that kind of a medical issue, and what the hell was he doing carrying a LOADED WEAPON on base?
I almost turned my shit in right then. I still cannot fathom how it is that people are being given these drugs, are obviously unstable and are being allowed to carry firearms. I am not going to blame anyone in particular, but if the med folks on base were aware of this kids issues... why wasn't his Commander notified? He could have done some SERIOUS harm. I am glad that he never seriously hurt someone (he assaulted his wife off base and was arrested), but this could have definitely ended in disaster.
The thing that bothers me the most....people knew and covered it up. Not because he was a stellar troop, because he was far from it....but they did. I still don't know why. I quit shortly after this and a string of other incidents that kept occurring with regard to people's out of control behavior. I wasn't going to hang around for the next shoe to drop.....
GratefulCitizen
03-25-2010, 18:38
With respect, that's like saying you can be strong enough to overcome diabetes without insulin or cancer without chemotherapy. Just "knuckle-up" and you won't have breast cancer anymore!
Don't confuse serious depression or other mental illnesses with whininess, sadness or being weak. The brain is an organ. It can go wrong just like any other organ. And there are times when no amount of "tough-talking" to yourself is going to help.
If you have never experienced that, that's great. But if there is a person who has a mental illness, I quite frankly, would rather they take a pill for awhile than take out me and a couple of my friends and then commit suicide.
BTDT.
Had some issues when I was 19.
Shrink initially thought it was bi-polar, prescribed lithium, and everyone assumed I would be stuck that way for life.
(he later recanted the initial diagnosis when circumstances changed)
Eventually I decided that whatever the issues were, I would overcome them.
Told the shrink that there was nothing wrong with me, and I would not take the meds.
Later discovered the symptoms were consistent with dysexecutive syndrome -- frontal lobe damage.
This is not suprising given the amount of sparring done without headgear prior to the onset of symptoms.
I had a capable brain prior to these problems, but had difficulty using it thereafter.
My brain is indeed an organ, but I am a living soul.
I conditioned my concentration (my brain) through practice -- things such as putting dots in the center of each box in page after page of graph paper.
No, this was not a manifestation of OCD, it was deliberate practice. It's not easy.
I conditioned my will through hard training in the weight room.
I held myself to high standards of personal behavior.
I beseeched help from the Almighty.
Frequently, I failed (and still do).
Just dusted off and started again (and still do).
I cannot say where a bad attitude ends and brain injury begins.
Ultimately, it was irrelevant.
I was either willing to excercise what will and disclipline I still had,
or I would let atrophy and excuses take their course.
There are only two states of nature: growth and decay.
Each person has to make their own choice, and live with the consequences.
Yeah...what is it with these kids today - we didn't need any drugs - all we ever needed to deal with stress was a drink or two... ;)
And so it goes...
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
FWIW, Michael Doubler found that in 1941, the army was unprepared to define "combat exhaustion," much less treat it. The army's chief neuropsychiatrist described the symptoms as follows.Typically he appeared as a dejected, dirty, weary man. His facial expression was one of depression, sometimes tearfulness. Frequently his hands were trembling or jerky. Occasionally, he would display varying degrees of confusion perhaps to the point of being mute or staring into space. Very occasionally he might present classically hysterical symptoms.During the Second World War, the army found that "combat exhaustion" was most likely to affect two types of soldiers. The first group consisted of new soldiers in their first few days of combat. The second group was made up of experienced veterans who either had been fighting continuously for four months or longer or had experienced more than 200 days of fighting overall.*
Doubler further found that between 1944 and 1945, seventeen infantry divisions and four armored divisions crossed the 200 day threshold. Between 1944 and 1945, the army experienced about 151,920 cases of combat exhaustion. It was not until 1944 that the army found an effective treatment program.**
_______________________________________________
* Michael Doubler, Closing with the Enemy: How the GIs Fought the War in Europe, 1944-1945, Modern War Studies (Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 1995), 242-247.
** Ibid., 236-239.
To quote a door that I had the honor of walking through:
"Hard times don't last, but hard men do."
I have endured very difficlt situations and many of you have as well.
As a young man, it was suggested that chemicals (prescribed and not) would help my situation, but fortunately I looked inside of myself and understood that these substances would only prolong the duration of time between the experiences and the acceptance.
I chose to knuckle-up and deal with the s**t, with a clear mind.
Was it easy, no.
Someday everyone has to deal with misfortune, misdeeds, or just plan horror;
forwarding that day only stunts your growth.
In my opinion, the best pill is the one you don't take.
Unless that pill is the one that will save your life or the life of loved one. I am sure your experience with this is far different than mine. And I applaude you if you were able to make it through a dark period in your life without prescription drugs.
But thanks to antidepressants I have a happy and healthy 21 year old son. Were it not for the antidepressants, and change of environment, he may not be here now.
He was on them for 2 years, and was able to get off of them, with alot of work. But had you come to me when he was 15 and told me that he was sitting on top of a bell tower with a rifle, taking out folks with a rifle as they walked by, and then thrown himself off, I would not have been surprised.
Thankfully that part of his life is past, and he has a bright future to look forward to.
Not every person deals with things such as depression in the same manner. Have any of you men had a wife with post partum depression so severe that she was unable to take care of herself, let alone an infant?
Let's not knock those who deal with things differently than we do, without first walking a mile in their shoes.
BrainStorm
03-26-2010, 09:02
FWIW, Michael Doubler found that in 1941, the army was unprepared to define "combat exhaustion," much less treat it. The army's chief neuropsychiatrist described the symptoms as follows.During the Second World War, the army found that "combat exhaustion" was most likely to affect two types of soldiers. The first group consisted of new soldiers in their first few days of combat. The second group was made up of experienced veterans who either had been fighting continuously for four months or longer or had experienced more than 200 days of fighting overall.*
Doubler further found that between 1944 and 1945, seventeen infantry divisions and four armored divisions crossed the 200 day threshold. Between 1944 and 1945, the army experienced about 151,920 cases of combat exhaustion. It was not until 1944 that the army found an effective treatment program.**
_______________________________________________
* Michael Doubler, Closing with the Enemy: How the GIs Fought the War in Europe, 1944-1945, Modern War Studies (Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 1995), 242-247.
** Ibid., 236-239.
I would add as another useful reference "Psychological Effects of Combat" By Dave Grossman and Bruce K. Siddle (http://www.killology.com/print/print_psychological.htm)
Go Devil
03-26-2010, 09:35
AFChick & 550Girl,
I am not knocking those that deal with depression or PTSD; I am personally aware that the soul and chemical imbalances in the brain have an amazing ability to make an indiviual NMC and also that these issues are seldom a one time occurrence.
What I am knocking is the practitioner (out of fear of malpractice accusations) who is so quickly willing to subscribe a course of medication.
Below are people that my wife and I cousel with. All of these people arrive from unbelievable situations, are racked with grief and have been fed a steady diet of artifitial chemicals to treat the symptoms of their illness, but have not received or acquired the tools to treat themselves
Always lots of kids in there.
You have to wrestle that beast behind the door; he will not be prescribes away.
15053
15054
Go Devil
03-26-2010, 09:40
Jeez, what a bunch of weak motherfuckers.
What ever happened to basic survival instinct.
Maybe this suicide trend is mother nature's way of cleaning out the gene pool.
I believe that there is substance to this idea.
It is cold and hard, but who ever said that the mind does not fall under natural selection.
ZonieDiver
03-26-2010, 09:51
Yeah...what is it with these kids today - we didn't need any drugs - all we ever needed to deal with stress was a drink or two... ;)
Personally, I quit counting after two... then it just became "a coupla drinks"!
Go Devil
03-26-2010, 09:56
Maybe you're right -- but will it be easy to practice when it's someone you love?
Been there.
BrainStorm
03-26-2010, 10:10
Brain chemistry is a marvelous and still poorly understood thing. Brain chemistry disorders are even less well understood. We know that there are lots of things that can affect brain chemistry including, chemicals (prescribed or not), self talk, professional talk, physical activity, etc. Some make temporary change, some make permanent change, some have long lasting effects, some have short lasting effects.
I know of no simple test to decide which, if any, therapy would work at all, let alone work best. Trial and error seems to be the most frequent process in search of progress. Sometimes combination therapies are required.
Those I know who have had the most success have been those who continue to try. But even that is fraught with frustration as there are only poor metrics of progress.
I've long since given up on being judgmental about what others have accomplished or failed to accomplish. I simply cannot discover the knowledge that would permit such hubris.
Is there a difference between the civilian and military standard? If folks have health issues in the civilian world, and drugs can help increase their quality of life etc, god bless, but is it different for folks responsible for making decisions in harms way?
Would men in a military unit facing combat want to follow an officer who had taken anti-depressants, or could an officer rely on men under stress who couldn't control an alcohol or drug addiction? My guess would be this profession is dangerous enough without incurring additional risk or liability. I still can't fathom how you elect a CIC who admitted to cocaine use.
This seems straightforward, but then you have an example like Ulysses S Grant. The General who eventually led Union forces to victory in the Civil War. In 1854 Grant hit rock bottom, he was posted away from his family with little responsibility. He got to the point he was so depressed he didn't have a reason to wake up in the morning, and drank himself out of the army.
Later on President Lincoln said something along the lines of " Whatever Grant is drinking, we should give to our other generals".
greenberetTFS
03-26-2010, 11:33
Yeah...what is it with these kids today - we didn't need any drugs - all we ever needed to deal with stress was a drink or two... ;)
And so it goes...
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
Exactly,it worked then and I see no reason it couldn't work now.............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Is there a difference between the civilian and military standard? If folks have health issues in the civilian world, and drugs can help increase their quality of life etc, god bless, but is it different for folks responsible for making decisions in harms way?
Would men in a military unit facing combat want to follow an officer who had taken anti-depressants, or could an officer rely on men under stress who couldn't control an alcohol or drug addiction? My guess would be this profession is dangerous enough without incurring additional risk or liability. I still can't fathom how you elect a CIC who admitted to cocaine use.
This seems straightforward, but then you have an example like Ulysses S Grant. The General who eventually led Union forces to victory in the Civil War. In 1854 Grant hit rock bottom, he was posted away from his family with little responsibility. He got to the point he was so depressed he didn't have a reason to wake up in the morning, and drank himself out of the army.
Later on President Lincoln said something along the lines of " Whatever Grant is drinking, we should give to our other generals".
So would you rather have a commander that hides his problem because of ther percieved weakness that goes along with depression, and doesn't seek help, therefore becoming a human time bomb. Or would you rather have a commander that has the intestinal fortitude to step forward, admit that he has a problem, and seeks help for his problem, thereby becoming an example to his personnel that asking for help is not a weakness, but instead a strength?
Peregrino
03-26-2010, 12:22
So would you rather have a commander that hides his problem because of ther percieved weakness that goes along with depression, and doesn't seek help, therefore becoming a human time bomb. Or would you rather have a commander that has the intestinal fortitude to step forward, admit that he has a problem, and seeks help for his problem, thereby becoming an example to his personnel that asking for help is not a weakness, but instead a strength?
Having dealt with commanders who've had emotional breakdowns - I want them relieved. Immediately, with prejudice, and shuffled off to treatment/retirement (in that order). I want something done to ensure they NEVER have another opportunity to poison a command climate, the subordinates they were (mistakenly) entrusted with, or to create problems affecting the good order and discipline of the service. I expect my commanders to have and exhibit the mental toughness/resiliance necessary to LEAD in combat. I also expect Soldiers entrusted to leadership positions to monitor their subordinates for signs of weakness and take steps to intervene before a disaster ensues - while the Soldier is still salvageable. And no - I do not expect non-combat servicemembers to understand my position. Nor do I really care.
Surgicalcric
03-26-2010, 12:41
Entire Post.
Well said my Brother, well said.
Smokin Joe
03-26-2010, 12:50
Having dealt with commanders who've had emotional breakdowns - I want them relieved. Immediately, with prejudice, and shuffled off to treatment/retirement (in that order). I want something done to ensure they NEVER have another opportunity to poison a command climate, the subordinates they were (mistakenly) entrusted with, or to create problems affecting the good order and discipline of the service. I expect my commanders to have and exhibit the mental toughness/resiliance necessary to LEAD in combat. I also expect Soldiers entrusted to leadership positions to monitor their subordinates for signs of weakness and take steps to intervene before a disaster ensues - while the Soldier is still salvageable. And no - I do not expect non-combat servicemembers to understand my position. Nor do I really care.
Amen.... I wish EVERYONE thought like this and that these rules were applied to Law Enforcement as well!
I've seen and been a part of a few bad situations. Just like everyone else, I know I'm not special because of it. Shit happens in life, deal with it, everyone else does! Those who can't or won't deal with it need to get their ass out of the job or service!
If you need professional help, great, go get some. But you probably are no longer cut out for the position you once had. Deal with it you weren't going to be there forever anyways...
just my .02 cents, YMMV
Agree with Peregrino.
IMHO the issue is more that soldiers are self-medicating and/or are being given Rx's to deal with stress. Big mistake.
Regardless, in positions of leadership the individual has to have and be in control of himself/herself and his/her emotions without support from EOTH, or drugs.
If that person can't then they should be relieved. And it's the responsibility of their superiors to be able to ID the situation and take action.
The military is not the civilian world.
Scimitar
03-26-2010, 13:24
With respect, that's like saying you can be strong enough to overcome diabetes without insulin or cancer without chemotherapy. Just "knuckle-up" and you won't have breast cancer anymore!
Don't confuse serious depression or other mental illnesses with whininess, sadness or being weak. The brain is an organ. It can go wrong just like any other organ. And there are times when no amount of "tough-talking" to yourself is going to help.
If you have never experienced that, that's great. But if there is a person who has a mental illness, I quite frankly, would rather they take a pill for awhile than take out me and a couple of my friends and then commit suicide.
It may be whininess, a significantly high portion of anti-depression medication is prescribed on the basis of symptoms, not cause (blood tests proving chemcial inbalances).
Depression isn't always significant chemical inbalance, in many cases it is simply a rebalancing after high stress, excitement, trauma, etc.
Medicating it does not help any, also 8% on mental helth med, what's the national average? I bet it's similar.
armymom1228
03-26-2010, 13:49
Wasn't aware there was one. (????)
Yep, its one of the ways they test for Bi-Polar Disorder.
There are any number of mental disorders that are treatable with medication.
They are not the kind that therapy alone will cure.
We have become a country that everything can be solved with a little pill.
Instead of a teacher figuring out how to keep a fidgety kid occupied and interested in learning. They get him/her diagnosed with ADD and drug them into compliance. (personal rant there)
We have a bad week or two and get our Docs to give us anti-depressants to make us all happy again. Some people need them..but most do not.
We cannot sleep, hel, call the doc and get some Lunesta..instead of a shot of booze, a hot shower and to bed.
Have a sniffle..oh my!! call your doc and get antibiotics for things that cannot be treated with antibiotics because that is what you are conditioned to do.
Drugs and thier pervasive use are rampant in our society. It simply amazes me how my grandparents survived without all these chemicals in thier lives.:(
I cannot count the times I have seen patients come into a facility with 8,10,12 seperate medications. Some are very real and needed, but many many are not.
It is, many times, easier to write a prescription that actualy deal with a patient. OTOH, docs also write those prescriptions because they are afraid of being sued.
:rant mode off:
AM
armymom1228
03-26-2010, 13:54
Having dealt with commanders who've had emotional breakdowns - I want them relieved. Immediately, with prejudice, and shuffled off to treatment/retirement (in that order). I want something done to ensure they NEVER have another opportunity to poison a command climate, the subordinates they were (mistakenly) entrusted with, or to create problems affecting the good order and discipline of the service. I expect my commanders to have and exhibit the mental toughness/resiliance necessary to LEAD in combat. I also expect Soldiers entrusted to leadership positions to monitor their subordinates for signs of weakness and take steps to intervene before a disaster ensues - while the Soldier is still salvageable. And no - I do not expect non-combat servicemembers to understand my position. Nor do I really care.
Well said, I completely concur.
thanks
AM
Scimitar
03-26-2010, 13:59
Wasn't aware there was one. (????)
Sorry NormalGirl,
Major Depressive Disorder, does not have a blood test, other causes of depression do. Generally a good Doctor will order the blood test to ensure it really is MDD. IMHO one of the biggest problems with MDD diagnosis is you rule everything else out therefore it must be MDD. You can't prove a negative. The MDD test is pretty subjective. Medical science ain't as much of a science as we'd like to think, especially in mental health.
Riddle me this, how many of this 8% are diagnosed with MDD, take these guys away, give me a percentage, then compare this with civi street minus MDD as well, that’s your real number.
This probably isn't a change in the generation, this is our first protracted combat situation since Vietnam, and since then medicine has changed its mind on treating mental illness, I personally think not always for the better, but what do I know.
Like Army Mom said, over prescription is rampant, diagnosis is vague and often undertaken (out of necessity and policy) by Primary Care physicians, who arguably may not have the training or resource to deliver an EXCELLENT prescription versus a simplified prescription.
Scimitar
AngelsSix
03-26-2010, 16:52
Having dealt with commanders who've had emotional breakdowns - I want them relieved. Immediately, with prejudice, and shuffled off to treatment/retirement (in that order). I want something done to ensure they NEVER have another opportunity to poison a command climate, the subordinates they were (mistakenly) entrusted with, or to create problems affecting the good order and discipline of the service. I expect my commanders to have and exhibit the mental toughness/resiliance necessary to LEAD in combat. I also expect Soldiers entrusted to leadership positions to monitor their subordinates for signs of weakness and take steps to intervene before a disaster ensues - while the Soldier is still salvageable. And no - I do not expect non-combat servicemembers to understand my position. Nor do I really care.
Amen, brother, you hit the nail on the head there.
Well said, I completely concur.
Some people don't and never will understand. I don't give a rat's backside if they do/don't.. thanks for saying that P.
AM
I understand just fine thanks.
I find it amazing that individuals think that every person deals with stress in the same manner. I never said that someone who was INCAPABLE should be leading troops, and if someone's mental health puts them in that category, I agree they should be relieved.
But for some, just because they are having some problems, DOES NOT make them incapable of leading. As I said before, would you rather have someone leading troops willing to admit they need some help, or hide the issue, because as others have said they will loose their commands and ushered out of the service.
My bet is faced with that scenario you are going to have many more folks that hide their problems, which put the troops entrusted to them in harms way, much more than someone who isn't willing to admit they need help.
So you have a buddy on your team that is an alcoholic, but isn't willing to admit that he has a problem, or worse still knows he has a problem but won't seek treatment because he knows that it may result in him being pulled off the team. Isn't getting him treatment in the best interest of him, and the team?
Yeah yeah, I know, I am not in the army, haven't seen combat, so therefore my thoughts on subjects such as this don't hold water. I have a son that has seen more combat that any mother would dream of, and undergone more stressful situations that I can imagine. I would certainly hope that if the time came that something finally got to him, he would feel he was able to seek treatment, instead of fearing the actions you all seem to be advocating. He is a good Marine and I would hope that seeking treatment if he needed it wouldn't brand him as a bad one.
Surgicalcric
03-26-2010, 18:04
...So you have a buddy on your team that is an alcoholic, but isn't willing to admit that he has a problem, or worse still knows he has a problem but won't seek treatment because he knows that it may result in him being pulled off the team. Isn't getting him treatment in the best interest of him, and the team?
Apples and oranges...
For the sake of this discussion I will say this, once 'his' problem becomes a 'team' problem he will be counseled and his options explained. He can then choose which path he will follow, seek help or find himself somewhere else.
Crip
Apples and oranges...
For the sake of this discussion I will say this, once 'his' problem becomes a 'team' problem he will be counseled and his options explained. He can then choose which path he will follow, seek help or find himself somewhere else.
Crip
Crip is Spot on.... I have been on teams that we had to do this and 2 of the 3 got resolved and they got better. Hell it is hard to be a drunk if there is no beer to be found for hundreds of miles. Helped one really quick plus the rest of us pitching in.
The Reaper
03-26-2010, 19:21
Not everyone is cut out for it.
Doesn't mean you are a bad person, but you are not an asset to the team anymore. You let me down, and you have moved into the untrusted category. Not to belabor the point, but there is a completely different set of rules in a support organization with the requisite facilities and ability to work around problems like that without getting people killed. Cold but true, and you live longer/better playing by that way.
Nothing personal, but Peregrino nailed it, IMHO. Big boy rules.
TR
GratefulCitizen
03-26-2010, 19:32
Big boy rules.
TR
There was a time when this was the common expectation of any grown man.
You provide for your family.
You protect your family.
You make whatever sacrifices are necessary to meet the needs of those for whom you are responsible.
You make preparations for their welfare should you be unable to meet your obligations personally.
Excuses walked.
armymom1228
03-26-2010, 20:32
There was a time when this was the common expectation of any grown man.
You provide for your family.
You protect your family.
You make whatever sacrifices are necessary to meet the needs of those for whom you are responsible.
You make preparations for their welfare should you be unable to meet your obligations personally.
Excuses walked.
With all due respect CG, assuming that as a woman, I would somehow be expected of less? How sad that we too are not held to that level of responsibility.
My parents, both of them, believed that each had the above responsibility to thier family and each other. They reared my brother and I to have the same belief as they. I passed that one to my children.
Big boy rules should be applied across the board evenly, not dumbed down for gender. It never was for me, and I sure as heck did not suffer for it. Hold a person to a lesser standard and that is the standard they will aspire to. Hold the standards high, most will meet it. We will always have a few of either gender that won't. It's human nature.
:munchin
AM
Interesting opinions from all sides. I have another, less popular point of view. Has anyone realized that these weak ass kids are coming into the military already screwed in the head from a variety of issues to begin with?
Personal experience:
I am on patrol one night and go to the desk to clear some paperwork. Whence I hear the female at the desk state that "so and so's wife just called here looking for him, he got off post several hours ago and she was concerned because he is supposed to be taking some sort of anti psychotic meds and he hasn't gotten home to take them yet." SCHRREEEEECHHHH!! "WHAT?? Are we talking about one of our members?!" "Yup, I know he's in the parking lot, talking it up with so-and so (a SGT., who had no business messing with an E-2, but that's a whole other issue), but I didn't want a domestic on my hands, so I didn't tell her he was here."
Turns out this kid went nuts, completely unhinged not long after that. I had two questions. How did he get in the military with that kind of a medical issue, and what the hell was he doing carrying a LOADED WEAPON on base?
I almost turned my shit in right then. I still cannot fathom how it is that people are being given these drugs, are obviously unstable and are being allowed to carry firearms. I am not going to blame anyone in particular, but if the med folks on base were aware of this kids issues... why wasn't his Commander notified? He could have done some SERIOUS harm. I am glad that he never seriously hurt someone (he assaulted his wife off base and was arrested), but this could have definitely ended in disaster.
The thing that bothers me the most....people knew and covered it up. Not because he was a stellar troop, because he was far from it....but they did. I still don't know why. I quit shortly after this and a string of other incidents that kept occurring with regard to people's out of control behavior. I wasn't going to hang around for the next shoe to drop.....
This post is exactly why I wish I could clone AngelsSix, so she could bear my children.......
Buck
With all due respect CG, assuming that as a woman, I would somehow be expected of less? How sad that we too are not held to that level of responsibility.
My parents, both of them, believed that each had the above responsibility to their family and each other. They reared my brother and I to have the same belief as they. I passed that one to my children.
Big boy rules should be applied across the board evenly, not dumbed down for gender. It never was for me, and I sure as heck did not suffer for it. Hold a person to a lesser standard and that is the standard they will aspire to. Hold the standards high, most will meet it. We will always have a few of either gender that won't. It's human nature.
:munchin
AM
If that is true then our society should quit giving women preference in things like divorce/child custody/etc.......
I agree that all people should get off their ass and work and pull their equal weight.
Reality we will never be equal in all aspects. Hell I wish I could find a good woman that has money and would take care of me. Oh she has to be hot and not a nag..... and she has to pay for my toys that I want and drink premium bourbon with me on the deck, Free Fall, Scuba dive, drive the boat while I ski, Clean up after I mess up the BBQ and wash the car every weekend or at least hire a cute young lady to do it... I am not asking much but they are hard to find.....:D Do not forget the most important "Have money that she earned and buy me my toys and not NAG"
Dozer523
03-27-2010, 07:26
Having dealt with commanders who've had emotional breakdowns - I want them relieved. Immediately, with prejudice, and shuffled off to treatment/retirement (in that order). I want something done to ensure they NEVER have another opportunity to poison a command climate, the subordinates they were (mistakenly) entrusted with, or to create problems affecting the good order and discipline of the service. I expect my commanders to have and exhibit the mental toughness/resiliance necessary to LEAD in combat. I also expect Soldiers entrusted to leadership positions to monitor their subordinates for signs of weakness and take steps to intervene before a disaster ensues - while the Soldier is still salvageable. And no - I do not expect non-combat servicemembers to understand my position. Nor do I really care. Yeah. Like the shaky wuss at 00:36. He needs to "deal with it on his own" and not get in the way of the Team. He has to do what's best for the team. If he's this shaky before what's gonna happen when the stuff hits the fan? He should just tell someone he wants to go home. I'm sure he'll be on the next thing back to mama. Where he belongs. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1270037762458299918#
armymom1228
03-27-2010, 07:36
If that is true then our society should quit giving women preference in things like divorce/child custody/etc.......
I agree that all people should get off their ass and work and pull their equal weight.
Reality we will never be equal in all aspects. Hell I wish I could find a good woman that has money and would take care of me. Oh she has to be hot and not a nag..... and she has to pay for my toys that I want and drink premium bourbon with me on the deck, Free Fall, Scuba dive, drive the boat while I ski, Clean up after I mess up the BBQ and wash the car every weekend or at least hire a cute young lady to do it... I am not asking much but they are hard to find.....:D Do not forget the most important "Have money that she earned and buy me my toys and not NAG"
I believe I saw a few that might fit that bill on Calle Ocho in Miami recently...:D
GratefulCitizen
03-27-2010, 11:45
With all due respect CG, assuming that as a woman, I would somehow be expected of less? How sad that we too are not held to that level of responsibility.
My parents, both of them, believed that each had the above responsibility to thier family and each other. They reared my brother and I to have the same belief as they. I passed that one to my children.
Big boy rules should be applied across the board evenly, not dumbed down for gender. It never was for me, and I sure as heck did not suffer for it. Hold a person to a lesser standard and that is the standard they will aspire to. Hold the standards high, most will meet it. We will always have a few of either gender that won't. It's human nature.
:munchin
AM
This will be very politically incorrect.
Don't necessarily think women should be held to a lesser standard.
But in many cases, perhaps to a different standard.
Men and women are different.
Apples should meet apple standards, oranges should meet orange standards.
Both should meet fruit standards.
There is nothing wrong with men being men and women being women.
The differences promote an exchange which benefits both men, women, and posterity.
Problems are generated when men don't adequately cherish women.
Women tend to respond to this neglect by trying to be more like men.
Among nations and neighborhoods, those places where women are cherished enjoy a level of peace and civility which far exceeds those places where women are not.
It is difficult to appropriately cherish women when gender distinctions are too blurred.
Yes, there are areas in the world where gender roles are subject to draconian enforcement.
Such areas usually lack the critical element: the cherishing of women.
The responsibility for this dysfunction is couched in mens' behavior, not womens'.
MOO, YMMV.
Utah Bob
03-27-2010, 12:10
I believe I saw a few that might fit that bill on Calle Ocho in Miami recently...:D
Oye Chica! During the day or after hours?:D
AngelsSix
03-27-2010, 15:55
This post is exactly why I wish I could clone AngelsSix, so she could bear my children.......
Buck
You made my day. I have the overt (ha-ha) tendency to speak my mind, therefore I am generally not wanted around as I like to "rock the boat".
But at least when all these other folks are so doped up on whatever they are using and cannot fend for themselves when the time comes, I will be having a grand time!!!
I owe you a few whenever you make it down this way, or I make it up to your neck of the woods!
Stay safe,
K
AngelsSix
03-27-2010, 15:59
This will be very politically incorrect.
Don't necessarily think women should be held to a lesser standard.
But in many cases, perhaps to a different standard.
Men and women are different.
Apples should meet apple standards, oranges should meet orange standards.
Both should meet fruit standards.
There is nothing wrong with men being men and women being women.
The differences promote an exchange which benefits both men, women, and posterity.
Problems are generated when men don't adequately cherish women.
Women tend to respond to this neglect by trying to be more like men.
Among nations and neighborhoods, those places where women are cherished enjoy a level of peace and civility which far exceeds those places where women are not.
It is difficult to appropriately cherish women when gender distinctions are too blurred.
Yes, there are areas in the world where gender roles are subject to draconian enforcement.
Such areas usually lack the critical element: the cherishing of women.
The responsibility for this dysfunction is couched in mens' behavior, not womens'.
MOO, YMMV.
Awesome! I keep saying this, but of course in not so elegant terms. I think the main reason I cannot get my point across is because we have blurred the lines so much. There are always the few exceptions to the rule that "ruin" it for everyone else.....
armymom1228
03-27-2010, 16:52
Oye Chica! During the day or after hours?:D
I dunno, might want to ask the Jefe what he prefers.:p
armymom1228
03-27-2010, 17:45
Problems are generated when men don't adequately cherish women.
Women tend to respond to this neglect by trying to be more like men.
OH HORSE HOCKEY!! It was precisely because of the men in my life who loved, cherished and protected me that I am the woman I am today. They taught me to be independent, to be able to protect myself when they could not be there for me. I suppose you think I want to be a guy.. not in this lifetime. It would mean I would have to give up my red heels, and having doors opened for me.. or doing the ewwwwwwwwwww 'nake dance. Nope, am quite happy being exactly what I am. I also, am deeply grateful for the men who have loved and protected me, I consider myself very very blessed. But want to be a man never...
So your hypothesis is incorrect.
The responsibility for this dysfunction is couched in mens' behavior, not womens'.
MOO, YMMV.
To deny that the responsibility for this is one or the other genders is to give both genders dishonor. Responsibility for one's own actions,and behavior lays solely with the individual not the gender.
AngelsSix
03-27-2010, 18:07
I suppose if all men would be RESPONSIBLE for the creation of their children as much as the women is for raising them, then you could say things like child support could go away.
I remember a time when women stayed home and took care of the cooking, cleaning, kids, house. The men did EVERYTHING else. They mowed the grass, fixed the leaks, fixed the cars, paid the bills, took their families on vacation, made sure the dog got to the vet, whatever else needed to get done.
When someone realized that all the men going to war was putting a drain on war production and women went to work, that's when it all went to hell. So you war mongering men can kiss my lilly white you know what!!:p
Don't get me started on today's generation of men and women, because they are both equally screwed up.
alright4u
03-27-2010, 18:41
I agree with Mike 100%,he's right on target................ :eek::rolleyes::boohoo
Big Teddy :munchin
I cannnot believe we allow shrinks to put these junk pills into the bodies of CIB men on OPS? WTFO?
armymom1228
03-27-2010, 18:51
;)
Utah Bob
03-28-2010, 08:46
Focus people. Focus!
PedOncoDoc
03-28-2010, 08:57
Focus people. Focus!
Y'know - they have a pill for that. :D
If that is true then our society should quit giving women preference in things like divorce/child custody/etc.......
I agree that all people should get off their ass and work and pull their equal weight.
Reality we will never be equal in all aspects. Hell I wish I could find a good woman that has money and would take care of me. Oh she has to be hot and not a nag..... and she has to pay for my toys that I want and drink premium bourbon with me on the deck, Free Fall, Scuba dive, drive the boat while I ski, Clean up after I mess up the BBQ and wash the car every weekend or at least hire a cute young lady to do it... I am not asking much but they are hard to find.....:D Do not forget the most important "Have money that she earned and buy me my toys and not NAG"
You aren't asking for much are you?? You can't find a hot latina girl down there that meets all your requirements???:p
AngelsSix
03-29-2010, 05:28
I see a lot of people that are turning to chemicals these days just because life has gotten "too stressful". I don't think that is a good thing. I am watching women walk around like zombies, completely ignoring their kids, and generally not taking care of anything. The one I know has to have someone living in the house with her because she can't do anything at all when her husband is away. She acts like a teenager, it's a little weird. I am wondering if all of this has something to do with self esteem and how we "measure up" more than actual brain chemistry in some folks.
My sister had to be medicated as a child, she was completely off the wall and prone to violent episodes if she wasn't. I have seen that there is definitely a need for some folks to have meds. But I think more and more people are getting the idea that it's a "quick fix" for all of our problems. No one wants to deal with anything today, another reason why our government has gotten so far out of control.
There was a show on last night on animal planet about people who were killed by their exotic pets, particularly snakes. They then showed a guy at a snake farm in KY whose job it is to milk poisonous snakes for anti-venom. The guy has lost multiple fingers and estimates he does hundreds of milkings weekly. He said he studies Bushido and tells himself this could be your last day every morning. He isn't stupid, he knows his job requires perfection and the odds add up, but he just smiles and says I really know I'm helping people. The guy is definitely an outlier on the stress scale, but it makes you wonder how much attitude matters in any situation.