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Some interesting readings under the Core Learnings From The Muslim World documents.
http://www.gallup.com/consulting/worldpoll/26410/Gallup-Center-Muslim-Studies.aspx
Richard's $.02 :munchin
At least two of their members have been previously discussed in other threads.
* Dalia Mogahed, Executive Director
* Richard Burkholder, Director of International Polling
* John Esposito, Senior Scientist
* Eric Nielsen, Senior Director, Media Strategies
* Magali Rheault, Senior Analyst
* Ahmed Younis, Senior Analyst
* Mohamed Younis, Senior Analyst
Reading the actual findings might prove worthwhile.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Which part? It's written by Muslims; how can that be unpartisan? You would think the Gallup Corp. could find someone who is actually neutral, or more neutral.
The questions were interestingly written and the interpretations were acrobatic in their attempts to cast data as proving a point as well. They were really trying to put across the whole "Muslims won't choke on the sweet air of freedom, see?! This is science!" idea.
It wasn't all leading and miscasting, but there was enough in the extremist, the democracy, and the ordinary muslim to throw the whole thing out and look somewhere else for data.
The writer(s) started with an agenda and sought to prove it. Seems like a bad method of 'obtaining scientifically rigorous data', and of retaining a reputation for reliable survey data.
Maybe they should rename the source "The Gallup Center for Lysenkoism- Muslim Branch"
:munchin
Gallup just completed a random pole in the UK.
They surveyed everyone in line for their weekly dole payments.
Almost 95% of the Brit responded, see attached results..
Which part? It's written by Muslims; how can that be unpartisan? You would think the Gallup Corp. could find someone who is actually neutral, or more neutral.
I found the readings interesting, while the efficacy of polls and statistics can be questioned, discounting for bias, studying Muslims is probably the best way to learn about Muslims? Perhaps plumbers have some profound insights on Islam's views on the west, but while possibly neutral how credible is their experience. It doesn't seem all of these writers are Muslim.
Lysenkoism can cut both ways. At the end of the day all these debates on Islam and the West boil down to three choices.
1) We kill every Muslim
2) Muslims kill every non Muslim
3) Evolution, education, and co-existence
While there are certainly Islamic terrorists who simply need to be killed, on the whole choice three seems most logical to me...
The Reaper
03-25-2010, 10:33
I found the readings interesting, while the efficacy of polls and statistics can be questioned, discounting for bias, studying Muslims is probably the best way to learn about Muslims? Perhaps plumbers have some profound insights on Islam's views on the west, but while possibly neutral how credible is their experience. It doesn't seem all of these writers are Muslim.
Lysenkoism can cut both ways. At the end of the day all these debates on Islam and the West boil down to three choices.
1) We kill every Muslim
2) Muslims kill every non Muslim
3) Evolution, education, and co-existence
While there are certainly Islamic terrorists who simply need to be killed, on the whole choice three seems most logical to me...
Can we get them to choose 3, when some of them are pursuing 2?
Can we take select any option unilaterally, other than 1?
TR
Can we take select any option unilaterally, other than 1?
TR,
Sir, I see your point , option 1 would be easier were we the Mongols, Nazis, or Soviets, but aren't we supposed to be as Richard says , " the men in white hats" ?
Grey Ghost
03-25-2010, 11:08
from "Moderate vs. Extremist Views":
Classified as political radicals were those who met
the following criteria: 1) they felt the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, were
“completely justified”, and 2) they indicate that they have an “unfavorable” or
“very unfavorable” opinion of the United States. Those who did not say the
attacks were completely justified were termed moderates. The “radical” group
represents about 7% of the total population across the 10 countries included in
the study.
So someone who considered the 9/11 attacks "largely justified" would be classified as moderate. We don't know how many, if any, would fall in such a category but it certainly brings into question the survey design.
I found it interesting that in 2005 the % having an unfavorable view of the US was:
Saudi Arabia 79%
Pakistan 65%
Iran 52%
I'm guessing the ranking would have been reversed if the leadership of each country had been polled. Should we be thankful that Saudi Arabia is not a democracy?
The Reaper
03-25-2010, 11:08
TR,
Sir, I see your point , option 1 would be easier were we the Mongols, Nazis, or Soviets, but aren't we supposed to be as Richard says , " the men in white hats" ?
You cannot unilaterally pursue any other option as far as I can tell.
Otherwise, they have to want to change.
TR
Grey Ghost
03-25-2010, 11:37
I found the readings interesting, while the efficacy of polls and statistics can be questioned, discounting for bias, studying Muslims is probably the best way to learn about Muslims? Perhaps plumbers have some profound insights on Islam's views on the west, but while possibly neutral how credible is their experience. It doesn't seem all of these writers are Muslim.
Lysenkoism can cut both ways. At the end of the day all these debates on Islam and the West boil down to three choices.
1) We kill every Muslim
2) Muslims kill every non Muslim
3) Evolution, education, and co-existence
While there are certainly Islamic terrorists who simply need to be killed, on the whole choice three seems most logical to me...
What about a 4th - Kill every Muslim that is trying to kill every non Muslim.
greenberetTFS
03-25-2010, 13:02
Gallup just completed a random pole in the UK.
They surveyed everyone in line for their weekly dole payments.
Almost 95% of the Brit responded, see attached results..
Well,there you go........... :rolleyes: Can't argue with the polls can we? ;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Lysenkoism can cut both ways.
How's that? The practitioner sounds like an idiot in addition to being a liar?
Or we mistake the neutrality of
* Magali Rheault, Senior Analyst
* Ahmed Younis, Senior Analyst
* Mohamed Younis, Senior Analyst
for being biased unfairly? I don't know any unbiased Muslim. Probably plumbers are not the first place to look for neutral statisticians. Maybe Canada could do a better job, or we could just look at the bias and account for it ourselves.
At the end of the day all these debates on Islam and the West boil down to three choices
1)...
2)...
3)...
While there are certainly Islamic terrorists who simply need to be killed, on the whole choice three seems most logical to me...
Disagree. Well - maybe it does seem logical to you. It doesn't to me and those are not the only options. Seems to me we can feed with the one hand and smash with the other.
Disagree. Well - maybe it does seem logical to you. It doesn't to me and those are not the only options. Seems to me we can feed with the one hand and smash with the other.
Definition: u·ni·lat·er·al (yn-ltr-l) adj.
1. Of, on, relating to, involving, or affecting only one side: "a unilateral advantage in defense" (New Republic).
2. Performed or undertaken by only one side: unilateral disarmament.
3. Obligating only one of two or more parties, nations, or persons, as a contract or an agreement.
4. Emphasizing or recognizing only one side of a subject.
5. Having only one side.
You can not feed if they do not want to eat..
and
Men in white hats are targets of opportunity.
In 1300 years the religion of islam has not wanted nor attempted to do anything that was not unilateral (ONE SIDED)..
It is the only religion I know of that teaches unilateral fellowship.
Be one or be dead.
There is another option—containment.
There is another option—containment.
Yes, but that is not unilaterally.
Since the 40's the US has "donated" most of its foreign aid to countries in our war interest regions. Europe in the 40's, then SE Asia from the 50-70's, now the ME since the 80's get the vast majority of our "foreign aid" dollars.
And it's not the biggest expenditure we have, usually less than 1% of the federal budget. But it buys us people and loyalty and information and cooperation, in addition to all the other efforts to secure the same things.
That's what I was referring to-- We can feed Egypt and the Saudis and the Pakistanis and at the same time show them "this is what happens when you really join the other side and work against us, please see the New Iraq and A-stan for examples".
:munchin
The Reaper
03-25-2010, 14:24
Since the 40's the US has "donated" most of its foreign aid to countries in our war interest regions. Europe in the 40's, then SE Asia from the 50-70's, now the ME since the 80's get the vast majority of our "foreign aid" dollars.
And it's not the biggest expenditure we have, usually less than 1% of the federal budget. But it buys us people and loyalty and information and cooperation, in addition to all the other efforts to secure the same things.
That's what I was referring to-- We can feed Egypt and the Saudis and the Pakistanis and at the same time show them "this is what happens when you really join the other side and work against us, please see the New Iraq and A-stan for examples".
:munchin
You do realize that the vast majority of foreign aid goes to two nations in the Middle East. They are already being paid off not to fight.
There is another option—containment.
How do you do that with the huge number of expatriate Muslims living outside the area of the problem?
We cannot even keep the worst locked up in Gitmo.
TR
The manipulation of the scientific process to reach a predetermined conclusion is obviously ripe for nefarious means which history has shown extend beyond agricultural methods. In this instance questioning the efficacy and bias of the Gallup polls implies these moderate Islamic attitudes may not be accurate, so perhaps as you suggested the Canadians or whomever might represent a neutral observer, labeling such a study as an instance of lysenkoism, may very well result in a positive, inspiring a more unbiased accurate study, or just as easily brush off valid observations and walk far enough down the path into the camp of folks who simply believe the nature of Islam is evil, static, and incorrigible, and as you would with a rabid dog, there is only one solution. At the point what's the utility of anything less extreme such as feeding with one hand smashing with the other etc?
At that point history has shown the stronger tribe eliminates the weaker, just as one would with a tumor, or a rabid dog, there is no evolution, compromise, or negotiation at that point. I actually agree with you, Radical Islam has glaring weaknesses which we can exploit without mass bloodshsed. But what about our own bias?
You do realize that the vast majority of foreign aid goes to two nations in the Middle East. They are already being paid off not to fight.
I do, and also that others are getting paid to chase terrorists and leave Israel alone.
Every little bit of aid goes a long way though, even if the proportionate numbers are all pointed at Cairo and Jerusalem being the main recipients.
Entire post by akv
I'm not sure what we agreed on.. But I don't agree with the last sentence or understand what you're on about with the first two, except that you maybe are trying to get across that we should not be prejudiced against Muslims conducting a poll and interpreting the results questionably.
How do you do that with the huge number of expatriate Muslims living outside the area of the problem?IMO, the problem area is not just defined as geographic locations. The areas of conflict include intrapsychic spaces and interpersonal matrices.
The power of culture has been thus far an underutilized resource.
IMO, the problem area is not just defined as geographic locations. The areas of conflict include intrapsychic spaces and interpersonal matrices.
The power of culture has been thus far an underutilized resource.
The harb al dawa has to have some handle/control. It would be an interesting idea if the US made a puppet and brought him in line, to make favorable proclamations.
We're always hearing about how gullible our sheep are and how their radicalism is such a small minority- if those are true, then why not their sheep presenting a broad spectrum of controllable population?
It seems strange that there isn't a strong pro-US voice anywhere in the muslim world, if the above stipulations were true.
The harb al dawa has to have some handle/control. It would be an interesting idea if the US made a puppet and brought him in line, to make favorable proclamations.
We're always hearing about how gullible our sheep are and how their radicalism is such a small minority- if those are true, then why not their sheep presenting a broad spectrum of controllable population?
It seems strange that there isn't a strong pro-US voice anywhere in the muslim world, if the above stipulations were true.
Perhaps you should try using the SEARCH function before posting - you might be surprised at the answers you will find already posted here in answer to your own musings. ;)
Richard
robert2854
03-25-2010, 18:37
I went to the website and at the end in the SEARCH space I typed in Chrisian Love-No matches found. So I quess they will kill us(at least try) RATHER BGE TRIED BY TWELVE THAN CARRIED BY SIX
We're always hearing about how gullible our sheep are and how their radicalism is such a small minority- if those are true, then why not their sheep presenting a broad spectrum of controllable population?
It seems strange that there isn't a strong pro-US voice anywhere in the muslim world, if the above stipulations were true.
US sheep have a bill of rights, a vote, and a quality of life the 3rd world envies.
Our "friends" in the Middle East are selected by strategic importance to US interests not the basis of their virtue. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, Pakistan is a military dictatorship, neither is super stable, Egypt is a republic and secular, but volatile. Sheep in these areas are likely wise to keep a low profile.
Albania and Turkey are both supportive NATO allies, and though secular, predominantly Muslim. ( though the Turks are currently miffed about the Armenian thing).
Perhaps you should try using the SEARCH function before posting - you might be surprised at the answers you will find already posted here in answer to your own musings.
Always a good point. My findings were that there have been a lot of differing views on what's up over there and with the Muslims over here.
I never personally ran into any finding that there is a pro US Muslim in power that can affect the residents of the Dawa; least of all the putative leaders put in place in Iraq/A-stan. They have a tough time so far staying in the driver's seats at all.
(Sir) Richard,
Do you really think that those interpretations of those questions are unbiased or set to change ideas? If the latter, is there some objective point that tells you the motive for manipulation is in the reader's interest to take it all to the bank?
I didn't say the writers were extremists; I said they were Muslims, and that raises a reasonable objection to the bias/lack thereof in the readings. If you prefer to believe what you read, that's yours.
If I were in their position and I were going to try continue to soften American leftist opinion on Islam, by appealing to their taste for intellectual, educational arguments, I wouldn't change a thing.
Do you really think that those interpretations of those questions are unbiased or set to change ideas? If the latter, is there some objective point that tells you the motive for manipulation is in the reader's interest to take it all to the bank?
I didn't say the writers were extremists; I said they were Muslims, and that raises a reasonable objection to the bias/lack thereof in the readings. If you prefer to believe what you read, that's yours.
My position on 'opinion' polls is consistent and can be found throughout these forums.
I posted the original to this thread for information purposes only as some of the findings were interesting - I did not infer whether they were biased or not, that began with the first post in response and was followed in quick succession by one opinion after another - certainly no bias in that.
Q: How does one conduct a valid poll of a Muslim dominant region (where there are also non-muslims or many variants of Muslims) without including Muslims (or others with Muslim-like names) as members of your polling team? To not include them exhibits an overt bias in its own right. (This principle applies to all regions of the world.)
Q: In the world of polling and polls, GALLUP is considered to be the 'gold standard' for such activities - would that established reputation not reasonably challenge (lessen) the perceptions raised here of overt bias? And if not, why? :confused:
There is much information readily available and influencing opinions in the world today, and polls such as this just might be of interest and value to some.
However - YMMV - and so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I posted the original to this thread for information purposes only as some of the findings were interesting - I did not infer whether they were biased or not, that began with the first post in response and was followed in quick succession by one opinion after another - certainly no bias in that.
So, we should ignore the source of the information because the findings are interesting?
So, we should ignore the source of the information because the findings are interesting?
No - and I neither said nor inferred doing such a thing.
My point was that in alluding to bias in others, perhaps we should also look to recognizing and weighing our own biases in the equation, too.
However - YMMV - and so it goes...
Richard
The Reaper
03-26-2010, 10:13
Q: In the world of polling and polls, GALLUP is considered to be the 'gold standard' for such activities - would that established reputation not reasonably challenge (lessen) the perceptions raised here of overt bias? And if not, why? :confused:
I would say that there is a big difference between brand recognition and performance.
Rassmussen has proven to be much more reliable over the past few years.
TR
greenberetTFS
03-26-2010, 11:42
I would say that there is a big difference between brand recognition and performance.
Rassmussen has proven to be much more reliable over the past few years.
TR
My understanding also,especially during the recent election and health bill polls........;)
Big Teddy :munchin