simulating a long range shot

[fng13]

I don't think this is possible but is there a way to simulate a long range shot? I currently only have access to a 100yd range. Would shooting at a very small target be enough?

I know there are a lot of factors that come into a distance shot. But if the target was very small wouldn't atleast some of those factors come into play, such as wind drift, trigger control etc.

If the small target is a decent idea, any idea of how small that would have to be?

thanks. :)

after posting this I realized that would be no different then simply shooting tight groups. Please disregard this post unless I missed something further

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

As to target size, ...shoot at a dime at a hundred. For accuracy,etc if you think of it, you are allways aiming at the center of a target no more than a pin point if posible, so a dime is the same as a man sized target (for steady hold and aimming) .
You can construct a target tree with a "center" target wwith hold over/under targets positioned at distances representinng ballistic curve of your round at increasing distances.

[BrainStorm]

If you are interested in the simple math for relating target distance and bulls eye size you can access this link I developed for my students. MOA Target Math (http://pi-sd.com/Testing_otf_MOA_Target_MATH.php)

[Gene Econ]

I don't think this is possible but is there a way to simulate a long range shot? I currently only have access to a 100yd range. Would shooting at a very small target be enough?

I know there are a lot of factors that come into a distance shot. But if the target was very small wouldn't atleast some of those factors come into play, such as wind drift, trigger control etc.

If the small target is a decent idea, any idea of how small that would have to be?

thanks. :)

after posting this I realized that would be no different then simply shooting tight groups. Please disregard this post unless I missed something further

FNG:

Shoot a standard velocity .22 rimfire using what ever sight you use on your more powerful rifle on targets that are reduced to 100 yards.

You will find a distinct requirement to dope winds if you stick with a .22 LR and by using the sights you intend to use on your other rifle you will get used to using that particular sight / spotting scope as well as conditioning yourself to see a consistent sight picture and or holds.

Gene

[fng13]

Thanks for the replies, this is all very helpful.

If you are interested in the simple math for relating target distance and bulls eye size you can access this link I developed for my students. MOA Target Math

In the first and main equation what does f represent. Is f=K so that if I wanted to know the target size at 600 yards it would be Ts=F(600,6)?

You can construct a target tree with a "center" target wwith hold over/under targets positioned at distances representinng ballistic curve of your round at increasing distances.

Im not totally sure how to accomplish this, but this sounds like a good idea. I googled for building a target tree and wasn't able to come up with anything like that. Do you know where I could find any data on this.

Shoot a standard velocity .22 rimfire using what ever sight you use on your more powerful rifle on targets that are reduced to 100 yards.

Sadly I don't have a .22 rifle anymore but I was looking at getting a .22 conversion for my ar-15. So that that should be do able once I get some funds.

[craigepo]

There are also some very good pellet guns, which would allow you to practice in your backyard.

[BrainStorm]

In the first and main equation what does f represent. Is f=K so that if I wanted to know the target size at 600 yards it would be Ts=F(600,6)?


Thanks for the feedback. I will update the explanation to make it clearer. In this case "f" stands for "function of." When I present this to my students I usually put it into words as follows:

Ts = f(Td, A); Target size in inches is a function of Target distance in yards and Angle in Minutes of Arc.

The rest of the material is the development of the equation for this function.

Also note that once you have the equation for that function, you can easily rearrange it to solve for any variable given the other two.

Thanks again for the feedback.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

Edited: Better explanation now in document.

[swpa19]

fng: The NRA has downsized targets, that represent 300 and 600ranges. They are meant to be used at 200yards. If you could pick some of these up and downsize them by half, they may be helpful on your 100 yd. range. Where in PA. are you located.

[fng13]

fng: The NRA has downsized targets, that represent 300 and 600ranges. They are meant to be used at 200yards. If you could pick some of these up and downsize them by half, they may be helpful on your 100 yd. range. Where in PA. are you located.

Johnstown for school, Home is in Schellsburg

Thanks for the feedback. I will update the explanation to make it clearer. In this case "f" stands for "function of." When I present this to my students I usually put it into words as follows:

Ts = f(Td, A); Target size in inches is a function of Target distance in yards and Angle in Minutes of Arc.

The rest of the material is the development of the equation for this function.

Also note that once you have the equation for that function, you can easily rearrange it to solve for any variable given the other two.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Thank you for the help.


There are also some very good pellet guns, which would allow you to practice in your backyard.

That might be something to look at. My grandmother has problems with cats invading her yard anyway. ;):D

[Grey Ghost]

You might find this link interesting. It's primarily to compare characteristics of different ammo but also gives you control over a number of other variables:
http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/

[Tacticalinterve]

While shooting reduced size targets to simulate longer ranges is better than nothing, it will never duplicate shooting the actual ranges, reading and compensating for the wind and range estimation.

Take a drive and find some place to shoot longer ranges if at all possible.

[longrange1947]

Shooting .22 at 50 and 100 yards/meters or aririfles at 15 and 25 meters will kick your butt if youdo not read the winds. While it will not replace longragne it will augment.

for a simple formula trythis one.

R1 x H1 divided by R2 = H2

R1 = Reduced range

R2 = Simnularted range

H1 = Actaul height of taget

H2 = Reduced height

So, R1 = 35 meters, R2 = 500 meters, H1 = 24 inchs

Then 35 x 24/500 = 1.68 inches is the height of a target at 35 meters to simulate a 24 inch target at 500 meters.

Try it at 50 meters with a 22 and then again at 100 meters with a 22 and see waht the wind does to you. :munchin :D

[fng13]

Thanks for the help.

Longrange I will put that formula to the test on my next range outing.

[Buffalobob]

There are quite a few places you can shoot to 1k or further.

Mifflin Co Sportsman's club

Williamsport Pa 1K club

I believe there is a 600 yard range in New Jersey now.

I go to Quanitco USMC. On the 25th we will shoot F-class at 800 yds, 900yds and 1000yds

24 Apr. Match 1 600yd team match

Match2 1000yd indivual

match 3 1000 yd 4 man team



25Apr.NRA palma match + on the other side of the range will be a "modified" match.We'll check this venue out and see how it works.



The thing about long range shooting is that you need to actually go and do it so that you sort out your gear and your theory. Lots of stuff sounds good on the internet but just doesn't cut the mustard in reality.

[caveman]

I second the .22 at 50 and 100yds. I shot my first smallbore match recently and was soundly humbled.

[incarcerated]

I second the .22 at 50 and 100yds. I shot my first smallbore match recently and was soundly humbled.

It’s a humbling sport.
Try it at 200.

[fng13]

It looks like I am going to have to invest in a decent 22 rifle. Any suggestions? Or should I just get the 22. conversion for my ar-15?

[koz]

CZ452 Varmint is a nice little bolt gun.

[Tacticalinterve]

If you wnat to be humbled try shooting F TR Class on the long range course.

[MVP]

FNG,

If you go the AR upper route buy a complete 22 LR dedicated upper. If you use a conversion bolt assembly you will never get any real accuracy.

FWIW: I once had the idea to conduct long gun training using 7.62mm blue plastic in the attic of the Company building in Germany. I could get more than 25m of "range" and figured I would use the Palma's on the M24 to get some meaningful training. It would allow relatively impromptu training without range requests, flags etc. I had provisional command blessing so I started shooting the stuff on the range at 25m. Results were dismal, I shot many 3-round groups and there was always a flyer. Two would go into one hole but one shot would wander off. I was never able to predict which shot would fly out so I gave up the project. There was one additional problem with the experiment: cleaning the plastic out of the barrel was a real PIA!

MVP

[fng13]

FNG,

If you go the AR upper route buy a complete 22 LR dedicated upper. If you use a conversion bolt assembly you will never get any real accuracy.

FWIW: I once had the idea to conduct long gun training using 7.62mm blue plastic in the attic of the Company building in Germany. I could get more than 25m of "range" and figured I would use the Palma's on the M24 to get some meaningful training. It would allow relatively impromptu training without range requests, flags etc. I had provisional command blessing so I started shooting the stuff on the range at 25m. Results were dismal, I shot many 3-round groups and there was always a flyer. Two would go into one hole but one shot would wander off. I was never able to predict which shot would fly out so I gave up the project. There was one additional problem with the experiment: cleaning the plastic out of the barrel was a real PIA!

MVP

I think I am going to get a 22.lr dedicated bolt action to practice accuracy and fundamentals, but I may invest in a 22lr conversion kit when more funds become available. (not to use for accuracy just because it is cheaper than to feed my ar-15.)

Another question. If I am going to be shooting at a simulated range what type of power should I use on the scope? For example if I would normally use 10x at 300 yds, should I use that for the simulated shot with the 22. or should I back it down?

[Gene Econ]

I think I am going to get a 22.lr dedicated bolt action to practice accuracy and fundamentals, but I may invest in a 22lr conversion kit when more funds become available. (not to use for accuracy just because it is cheaper than to feed my ar-15.)

Another question. If I am going to be shooting at a simulated range what type of power should I use on the scope? For example if I would normally use 10x at 300 yds, should I use that for the simulated shot with the 22. or should I back it down?

FNG:

If you are going to use reduced targets, use the magnification you will use at the normal range.

There are drawbacks in using reduced ranges but one of the things guys most want when using them is as close a sight picture as possible to shooting at what ever real distance they are training for.

Of course you can have other goals such as position development and trigger control but ensuring the sight picture is as close as possible to what ever normal distance one is training for is pretty critical.

Gene

[fng13]

Excellant information. Thank you.

[koz]

Listen to everything Gene or Longrange have to say...

For my CZ - I bought a Tasco scope. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/328858-REG/Tasco_VAR251042M_2_5_10x42_Target_Varmint.html).

Fun stuff..

[longrange1947]

FNG - whatever scope you use, make sure it will focus to the range that you are wanting to use as a reduced range. As an example, the 10x M3A will only focus to 35 meters, so setting targets closer than 35 meters will produce not only parallax problems but a fuzzy ball of s**t that you are trying to obtain a precise sight picture on your point if aim. Makes it somewhat of a PITA to shoot accurately in that manner. If the scope is a fixed focus, then you will have problems as the focus is usually at 150 yards, but can be anywhere from 100 to 250 yards. Again shooting at ranges closer will produce parallax and fuzz ball problems.

Some more things to think about. :)

[fng13]

Haha, this is turning out to be more and more complicated by the minute. I love it. I just want to get out to the range and try some of this, hopefully soon. I have been unable to do anything other than go to school, and the gym. Finals coming up in weeks:boohoo. I have been doing research about getting a decent 22. the CZ seems to be a good way to go. One more thing to throw into the fire here.

I am left handed, so should I go with a left handed bolt gun? Sniper's hide seems to think no from what I've read but to me it seems dumb to invest money in a gun that already isn't fit for me. However, my 30-06 I use for deer is a right handed '03A3 so I'm not new to working the bolt by bringing my left hand across. However, it's a PITA and I can't stay on the target while doing it.

[longrange1947]

FNG - Try new techniques of bolt manipulation. Reach over the scope lift up and flip the bolt to the rear. Your hand should stay above the scope and out of your LOS. Return bolt to battery again over the scope. Works with some and not with others, give it a go.

If you are using your right hand then you should be able to stay on target if you are using a rear sock or support. Let go of the rear of the stock and move you right hand to the bolt and manipulate it.

[fng13]

LR-

Thanks, I guess I should just stick to RH rifle then. They are easier to find anyway. :cool:

[swpa19]

FNG: Being LH is a PITA. There is a few things you can do. You can go to a semi auto, Ruger 10/22 Tactical, SWMP15 or Sig Sauer 522. These are a bit on the pricey side. Or you can do what most of us lefties do and stick with the "over the action bolt". I personally would stick with the bolt action till the skills im trying to accomplish are achieved then go on from there. I shoot 7 and 8mm Mausers for the pure fun of it. After shooting right handed bolts, left handed for 40 or so years you learn to adjust to the inconvenience.

[longrange1947]

FNG - Not telling you not to buy, asking that you try several different methods before you spring for the lefty gun. You may find that you really don't need it. They are more expensive and hard to find. :)

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

You will shoot better with which eye is dominant and with what side bolt is comfortable. In your case Left handed.
Buy one that shoots good and allows you to be comfortable . Many makers have left handed guns available. Check out Savage.
Be comfortable, relaxed, secure in motion , and confident in your gun. Good shooting, Dave

[Herdbull]

Is there a "by the book method" for leftys to handle a bolt? I operate the bolt with my right hand but have actually hit myself in the face trying for a quicker follow up shot. Plus when shooting offhand, taking my righthand off the foregrip, operating the bolt, and then reaquiring the target is pretty sloppy.

[MVP]

Herdbull,

Refer to post #27 in this thread and practice.

MVP

[Herdbull]

i saw that post. I will work on it.

[Gene Econ]

Is there a "by the book method" for leftys to handle a bolt? I operate the bolt with my right hand but have actually hit myself in the face trying for a quicker follow up shot. Plus when shooting offhand, taking my righthand off the foregrip, operating the bolt, and then reaquiring the target is pretty sloppy.

Heardbull:

I personally don't advise a left handed shooter to try and become a right handed shooter or vice versa unless the individual has acquired a permanent disability that forces him to shoot right or left handed. In these cases the individual either accepts the problems with operating a right handed bolt rifle with his left hand or they buy a bolt rifle made for left handed shooters.

I have seen left handed shooters become extremely competent and efficient in canting the rifle over slightly in order to make the bolt more accessible, then reaching over the action with their left hand to very smoothly work a bolt. I personally advise you to work on this if you don't want to buy a left handed bolt rifle. You will adapt very quickly once you get the hang of it and do some practice.

Gene

[fng13]

This is getting way out of the scope of this thread, and well beyond any of my 25 meter targets but if I were to get selected through the 18x program or just any military position actually along with the slim chance I would ever find myself behind a long gun which system would you recommend me to use now. RH or LH.

The only reason I ask this is because I don't want to develop bad habits now. Either being used to have a LH rifle and then finding myself with a RH playing catch up, or using a RH and developing bad technique.

I will say that as a western Pennsyvanianer I grew up hunting with RH rifles as mentioned earlier but I never spent a lot of time really shooting the rifle and developing a fluent reload technique. Where I hunt if I didn't hit on the first round its unlikely I'll get a second shot.

Thanks again by the way for all the advice.

[The Reaper]

The Army is not going to issue you a left-handed rifle, pistol, or MG.

TR

[fng13]

The Army is not going to issue you a left-handed rifle, pistol, or MG.

TR

TR

Loud and Clear. Thank You.