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Richard
03-17-2010, 05:58
Complicated it is...and so it goes...

Richard

Christian Soldiers
Robert Wright, Opinionator NYT Blog, 16 Mar 2010

Last Friday night a New York Times headline underwent an online transformation. The article formerly known as “A Christian Overture to Muslims Has Its Critics” acquired a new billing: “A Dispute on using the Koran as a Path to Jesus.”

For my money this was a big improvement, and explaining what I mean will illuminate a dirty little secret: some American Christians are fostering religious strife abroad. They mean well, but the damage they’re doing can be seen all the way from Nigeria, where Christians and Muslims are killing each other, to Malaysia, where Muslims are trying to keep Christians from using the term “Allah” for God.

The Times story is about an outreach technique that some Baptist missionaries use with Muslims. It involves stressing commonalities between the Koran and the Bible and affirming that the Allah of the Koran and the God of the Bible are one and the same.

You can see how a headline writer might call this an “overture.” And certainly the Christians who deploy the technique see it in sunny terms. Their name for it — the “Camel Method” — comes from the acronym for Chosen Angels Miracles Eternal Life.

But a more apt etymology would involve the “camel’s nose under the tent.” The “overture” — the missionary’s initial bonding with Muslims via discussion of the Koran — is precision-engineered to undermine their allegiance to Islam.

These missionaries start out by noting that the Koran depicts Jesus and his mother, Mary, in a favorable light. Indeed, they point out, the Koran depicts Jesus as a great prophet and a miracle worker who can even raise the dead. In contrast, the Koran doesn’t show Muhammad himself doing that sort of thing. Hmmm … kind of makes you wonder who the top prophet is, doesn’t it?

In some cases even the “camel’s nose” image doesn’t do justice to missionary wiliness. “Trojan Camel” might be better; some Christian missionaries call themselves Muslims — or at least muslims — because, after all, “muslim” literally means one who surrenders to God. A few have gone way undercover, growing beards and abstaining from pork.

Let’s put the shoe on the other foot. Suppose you were a Christian parent in America and you heard that someone who called himself a Christian had bonded with your son via genial Bible talk and then tried to convert him to Islam. That would be annoying, right? Might even lead to some blowback?

The “overture” — the missionary’s initial bonding with Muslims via discussion of the Koran — is precision-engineered to undermine their allegiance to Islam.
I wondered after reading the Times piece whether the disingenuous use of “Allah” by Christians might help explain a recent news item: In Malaysia, Muslims are demanding that non-Muslims not be allowed to use the word “Allah” for God. I consulted my go-to authority on Christian-Muslim tensions around the world, Eliza Griswold (whose book “The Tenth Parallel: Dispatches from the Fault Line between Christianity and Islam,” is scheduled to come out this fall).

She said tensions between Muslims and Christians in Malaysia are complex and longstanding, but, yes, when Muslims demand exclusive use of the word “Allah,” one source of their pique — and, indeed, their stated motivation — is that Christians sometimes use this linguistic bridge to pull Muslims over to the Christian side of it.

In Nigeria, the battle isn’t so much over the word “Allah,” but there, too, Muslims feel they are victims of cultural aggression. I recently got testimony about this from one of the perpetrators. He is a congenial Pentecostal minister from Nigeria who now drives a New Haven cab that I was riding in last month. (Yes, here comes a cab driver story. I feel like a real columnist now!)

When I asked him how things are in Nigeria, he started complaining about unruly Muslims. (This was weeks before the latest round of killings.) As the conversation continued, I started suspecting that part of the problem was something he’d spent time doing: trying to win Nigerian Muslims for Christ. With no prompting from me, and with evident pride, he said of Pentecostals, “We’re very aggressive.”

Doesn’t this bother the Muslims, I asked? Oh, yes, he said. And do the Muslims try to convert Christians in return? No, he said, “They keep to themselves.”

As this cab driver — a native-born Nigerian — illustrates, the problem isn’t just American missionaries going abroad and trying to leverage the Koran against itself. Depending on the country, Christian proselytizers may be of various nationalities and use various methods.

But whatever form the recruiting takes, it is often perceived by Muslims as cultural aggression — unprovoked aggression, since they’re not generally inclined to proselytize, and serious aggression, since in many Muslim cultures it’s a grave thing for a believer to stray from the fold. And even when American Christians aren’t doing the proselytizing, they’re often supporting it via money that flows from American churches — especially evangelical ones — to outreach programs abroad.

I’m not saying Christians are more to blame than Muslims for the world’s diverse Christian-Muslim tensions. In Nigeria, for example, the intensity of Christian proselytizing comes partly from past persecution by a Muslim majority; the Christians seek safety in numbers, so the bigger their numbers, the better. (Griswold explained this to me, and confirmed that, yes, assertive Christian proselytizing exacerbates tensions in Nigeria.)

Still, even if proselytizing isn’t the prime mover, my guess is that it pretty consistently falls in the “not helpful” category from the point of view of world peace and, ultimately, American security. And some of it — e.g., the “Camel Method” — is particularly antagonistic. Which explains why I’m not a big fan of that first headline, “A Christian Overture to Muslims Has Its Critics.” Overtures, when effective, don’t heighten tensions.

I’d like to be able to report that the “critics” in this headline are Christians who worry about heightening tensions and so refrain from offensive proselytizing. Alas, they’re Christians who favor assertive proselytizing but are offended by any suggestion that Muslims and Christians might worship the same god. One of them, Ergun Caner, president of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, in Lynchburg, Va., said in a recent podcast, “There’s nothing that the two gods — the god of the Koran and the god of scripture — have in common. Nothing.”

Well, to look at the bright side: Maybe that’s a basis for interfaith rapport; Caner can sit around with Malaysian Muslims and agree that they worship different gods.

Still, I like to think that their gods would beg to differ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Postscript. If you’re wondering what Muslim scripture says about whether “Allah” and the God of the Bible are the same: By my reading of the Koran, Muhammad does assert (or God asserts through Muhammad, as Muslims would have it) the unity of the Abrahamic God. Indeed, my view is that Muhammad initially got the word “Allah” from Christians, or from both Christians and Jews, and may have seen himself as a kind of Judeo-Christian prophet; he seems at times to be trying to merge Jewish and Christian belief into mutually acceptable doctrine — and to get Arab polytheists to renounce their idolatry and sign on as well. (Even today Arab-speaking Christians and Jews use the word “Allah” for God, and there’s no reason to assume that’s a post-Muhammad development.)

Indeed, the very Koranic passage that practitioners of the Camel Method use to stress Jesus’s wonder-working power conveys Allah’s roots in both the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) and the New Testament:

When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favor unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead… . [Koran 5:110; Muhammad Pickthall translation]

Interestingly, the reference in that passage to Jesus making a bird of clay and then infusing it with life comes from a gospel that didn’t make it into the Christian canon — the Infancy Gospel of Thomas — and that presumably was circulating among Christians in Muhammad’s milieu. This story gives people like Caner grounds to assert that the Jesus of the Koran and the Jesus of the Bible aren’t the same.

So does the fact that Muhammad, trying to build an emphatically monotheistic religion, denied the doctrine of the Trinity and denied that God could have a son (though he affirmed that Jesus was, as the Gospel of John has it, the “Word” of God and also called him “Messiah”). Still Caner’s claim in the aforementioned podcast that “Muhammad considered the nature of the God in the Bible, rejected it and made one up” is almost certainly a characterization that Muhammad wouldn’t have recognized. Muhammad’s project to build an interfaith community around the biblical God may have been doomed by intellectual tensions between Christian and Jewish belief — and for that matter between strictest monotheism and the Christian doctrine of Jesus’s divinity — but I do think that this was his project.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/christian-soldiers/?ref=global-home

Ret10Echo
03-17-2010, 07:07
Hmmm.....



Sounds to me like a bunch of folks looking for a reason to get into a fight. This excuse works as much as any other will.

afchic
03-17-2010, 09:26
How is this different from Muslims converting folks here and in Europe? So when they do it, it is ok, but when the roles are reversed we are the bad guys?

Same old hypocracy........

akv
03-17-2010, 10:00
Hmmm.....

Sounds to me like a bunch of folks looking for a reason to get into a fight. This excuse works as much as any other will.

Exactly, makes sense, interesting piece, maybe I need to switch to decaff, I wonder if this will at least make violence over resources more efficient, both sides can agree on the same god and then kill each other for other reasons...

orion5
03-17-2010, 10:19
Damn. Those NYT "journalists" get me every time. They sure have some clever people up there "writing" in NY. Good for raising the blood pressure, waking up the senses, revving your metabolism, getting the anger coursing through your veins. Who needs caffeine in the morning? Just read the NYT! (or LA Times)

I think Robert Wright is the one trying to stir up controversy. Good job Robert! :rolleyes:

AYMMV....:(

jw74
03-17-2010, 10:34
...will illuminate a dirty little secret: some American Christians are fostering religious strife abroad. They mean well, but the damage they’re doing can be seen all the way from Nigeria, where Christians and Muslims are killing each other, to Malaysia, where Muslims are trying to keep Christians from using the term “Allah” for God.

Riiiight. Cause if it weren't for Christians, the Muslims would all be getting along famously.

I thought Muslims, Jews and Christians were all "people of the book"?? i guess that's only true when the Muslims are seeking converts.:rolleyes:

greenberetTFS
03-17-2010, 11:05
How is this different from Muslims converting folks here and in Europe? So when they do it, it is ok, but when the roles are reversed we are the bad guys?

Same old hypocracy........

Well spoken afchic !!!!!.........:lifter

Big Teddy :munchin

JJ_BPK
03-17-2010, 12:07
I have read (don't have the link) a comparison of the Bible(s), Torah, and Koran. The similarities were debatable but very reasonable. The author(s) stated that the Torah and Koran use many of the same stories from the old testament. They stated the the new Bible was actual a bit less similar.

It only makes since.

Before our current system of online access, almost all of history was maintained through oral stories. Even after the early Egyptians started using clay tablets to record information, the spoken word was favored.

I suspect the fact that the "great & honored elders" could not read or write may have helped??

When Constantine ask for a bible to swear to Christianity in the 4th century,, they had to create one.

300 years later Mohamed writes the Koran. In his chunk of the world, what was available to learn to read from???

The Torah...

Remember what the written word has allowed man kind to have???

MY CORRECTed VERSION vs your incorrect version of history...

I am sure a whole bunch of people can make justifiable facts of any of hundreds of what if's,, must be's,, had to happen's..

Pick one you like,,

Just don't fight over it..

Defend
03-17-2010, 20:52
First off, I am a committed Christian who has shared my faith with Muslims, including while I was in the Middle East (not under CENTCOM - not violating any anti-proselytizing laws).

Why would I do such a thing? Two reasons. One: I believe that people coming to know the truth brings Glory to God (and yes, I do use الله [Allah], الرب [The Lord] and God interchangeably when working with Muslims) Two: I have compassion for the millions of people who are seeking truth (Muslims), and are not finding it. Offering them an opportunity to receive that truth without cultural barriers that have been built up by insensitive Christians, indoctrination, and religious teachings, is just as important as providing starving kids with food. See need, meet need. It's that simple.

The missiological term for what is being discussed in this article is "contextualization" - the presentation of information in a way that will be understood by the target audience. That same concept is used by certain elements of our Armed Forces. And yes, it ticks lots of Muslims off, and I'd be willing to bet UBL is among those ticked.

There are debates in the missiology community regarding levels of contextualization. Basically, at what point do you cease to be a "Christian"? Keep in mind that the term Christian originated as a derogatory term for followers of Christ. I usually explain my religion as a "Follower of Jesus Christ" when asked. If asked to clarify, I use the term Christian.

Finding common ground and using it to open discussion is not only acceptable, it is smart whether you are trying to put down an insurgency or lead somebody into a relationship with God. And I invite any Muslim to discuss commonalities with me.

-out

T-Rock
03-17-2010, 22:13
When Ishmael left with his mother Hagar, why wasn't his name Ishma'llah :confused: :D

Sigaba
03-17-2010, 22:42
Entire post.
How "open" can a conversation be on any topic if one party insists he or she knows the "truth," that others do not, and that it is his or her responsibility to meet the "need" for the "truth"?:confused:

Defend
03-18-2010, 18:36
All I'm saying is I have found what they are looking for. And yes, I do believe in absolute truth. Shoot me for it (that is quite popular these days). I also believe in right and wrong - as I would suspect most on this board do as well.

With all do respect Sigba, I believe that on some subjects I am right and others are wrong. I am no better, I am no more or less human, no more loved by the Creator.

For those who believe the Bible is the word of God, look at Genesis 12. God blessed Abraham so through him all people would be blessed. Paul taught that Christians are the children of Abraham - so how are we going to bless others if we keep the greatest blessing to ourselves?

There is a legend in a tribe I have spent some time with in SE Asia about three brothers - the smallest of which was white. The wiley little brother stole a golden book that contained the words of God and ran away with it. When white missionaries arrived, they believed it was the fulfillment of the prophesy that accompanied the legend. Someday the brother would return what rightfully belonged to all people.

I'm not going to trick or coerce people into my faith, but I will offer them the opportunity to have what I have.

-out

Richard
03-18-2010, 20:27
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

T-Rock
03-18-2010, 22:02
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=124494788

There’s no doubt the Bible is full of violence but the author, Mrs. Hagerty, fails to distinguish the distinct difference between the two. Biblical violence was specific to a particular place, people, and time (for defined reasons too - child sacrifice, Baal worship, causing Jewish seed to pass through the fire of Molech, etc), whereas Qur’anic violence is open-ended, and is meant to be never ending until the world falls under the banner of Islam.

At no time did Yahweh give an open-ended command for the Jews to kill gentiles. Much of the Old Testament violence was Abrogated by Jesus and became peaceful (Christianity), whereas Muhammad Abrogated every iota of peacefulness in the Qur’an and became violent - polar opposites - with the Qur’an giving just three choices, (a) Convert. (B) pay the jizya. Or (c) DIE.

Raymond Ibrahim puts it into perspective:

Conflating History with Theology
Judeo-Christian Violence vs. Islamic Violence

by Raymond Ibrahim

March 15, 2009


Especially after the terrorist strikes of 9/11, Islam has often been accused of being intrinsically violent. Many point to the Koran and other Islamic scriptures and texts as proof that violence and intolerance vis-à-vis non-Muslims is inherent to Islam. In response, a number of apologetics have been offered. The fundamental premise of almost all of these is that Islam's purported violence—as found in Islamic scriptures and history—is no different than the violence committed by other religious groups throughout history and as recorded in their scriptures, such as Jews and Christians. The argument, in short, is that it is not Islam per se but rather human nature that is prone to violence.

So whenever the argument is made that the Koran as well as the historical words and deeds of Islam's prophet Muhammad and his companions evince violence and intolerance, the counter-argument is immediately made: What about the historical atrocities committed by the Hebrews in years gone by and as recorded in their scriptures (AKA, the Old Testament)? What about the brutal cycle of violence Christians have committed in the name of their faith against both fellow Christians and non-Christians?

Several examples are then offered from the Bible as well as Judeo-Christian history. Two examples especially—one biblical, the other historic—are often cited as paradigmatic of the religious violence inherent to both Judaism and Christianity and usually put an end to the debate of whether Islam is unique in regards to its teachings and violence.

The first is the military conquest of the land of Canaan by the Hebrews (c. 1200 BC), which has increasingly come to be characterized as a "genocide." Yahweh told Moses:

[I]But of the cities of these peoples which Yahweh your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them—the Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite—just as Yahweh your God has commanded you, lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against Yahweh your God (Deuteronomy 20: 16-18).

So Joshua [Moses' successor] conquered all the land: the mountain country and the South and the lowland and the wilderness slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as Yahweh God of Israel had commanded (Joshua 10:40).

The second example revolves around the Crusader wars waged by Medieval European Christians. To be sure, the Crusades were a "counter-attack" on Islam—not an unprovoked assault as is often depicted by revisionist history. A united Christendom sought to annex the Holy Land of Jerusalem, which, prior to its conquest by Islam in the 7th century, was an integral part of Christendom for nearly 400 years.

Moreover, Muslim invasions and atrocities against Christians were on the rise in the decades before the Crusades were launched in 1096. For example, in 1071, the Seljuk Turks had crushed the Byzantines in the pivotal battle of Manzikert and in effect annexed a major chunk of Byzantine Anatolia (opening the way for the eventual capture of Constantinople centuries later). A few decades earlier, the Fatimid caliph al-Hakim desecrated and destroyed a number of important churches—such as the Church of St. Mark in Egypt and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem—and decreed several even more oppressive than usual decrees against Christians and Jews. It is in this backdrop that Pope Urban called for the Crusades:

From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears, namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians [i.e., Muslim Turks]…has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion (from the chronicles of Robert the Monk).

Nonetheless, history attests that these Crusades were violent and bloody. After breaching the walls of Jerusalem in 1099, the Crusaders slaughtered almost every single inhabitant of the Holy City. According to the Medieval chronicle, the Gesta Danorum "the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles." Moreover, there is the 1204 sack of Constantinople, wherein Crusader slew Christian.

In light of the above—one a prime example of "Hebraic" violence from the Bible, the other from Christian history—why should Islam be the one religion always characterized as intrinsically violent, simply because its holy book and its history also contain violence? Why should non-Muslims always point to the Koran and ancient history as evidence of Islam's violence while never looking to their own scriptures and history?

While such questions are popular, they reveal a great deal of confusion between history and theology, between the temporal actions of men and what are understood to be the immutable words of God. The fundamental error being that Judeo-Christian history—which is violent—is being conflated with Islamic theology—which commands violence. Of course all religions have had their fair share of violence and intolerance towards the "other." Whether this violence is ordained by God or whether warlike man merely wished it thus is the all-important question.

Old Testament violence is an interesting case in point. Yahweh clearly ordered the Hebrews to annihilate the Canaanites and surrounding peoples. Such violence is therefore an expression of God's will, for good or ill. Regardless, all the historic violence committed by the Hebrews and recorded in the Old Testament is just that—history. It happened; God commanded it. But it revolved around a specific time and place and was directed against a specific people. At no time did such violence go on to become standardized or codified into Jewish law (i.e., the Halakha).

T-Rock
03-18-2010, 22:09
This is where Islamic violence is unique. Though similar to the violence of the Old Testament—commanded by God and manifested in history—certain aspects of Islamic violence have become standardized in Islamic law (i.e., Sharia) and apply at all times. Thus while the violence found in the Koran is in fact historical, its ultimate significance is theological, or, more specifically, doctrinal. Consider the following Koranic verses, better known as the "sword-verses":

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the pagans wherever you find them—take them [captive], besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due [i.e. submit to Islam], then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (K 9:5).

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger [i.e. do not adhere to Islamic law], nor acknowledge the religion of Truth [i.e. Islam], from the people of the book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay tribute with willing submission, and feel themselves utterly subdued (K 9:29).

As with Old Testament verses where Yahweh commanded the Hebrews to attack and slay their neighbors, the sword-verses also have a historical context. Allah first issued these commandments after the Muslims under Muhammad's leadership had grown sufficiently strong enough to invade their Christian and pagan neighbors. But unlike the bellicose verses and anecdotes of the Old Testament, the sword-verses became fundamental to Islam's subsequent relationship to both the "people of the book" (Christians and Jews) and the "pagans" (Hindus, Buddhists, animists, etc). For instance, based on 9:5, Islamic law mandates that pagans and polytheists must either convert to Islam or be killed, while 9:29 is the primary source of Islam's well-known discriminatory practices against Christians and Jews.

In fact, based on the sword-verses (as well as countless other Koranic verses and oral traditions attributed to Muhammad), Islam's scholars, sheikhs, muftis, imams, and qadis throughout the ages have all reached the consensus—binding on the entire Muslim community—that Islam is to be at perpetual war with the non-Muslim world until the former subsumes the latter. (It is widely held by Muslim scholars that since the sword-verses are among the final revelations on the topic of Islam's relationship to non-Muslims, that they alone have abrogated some 200 of the Koran's earlier and more tolerant verses, such as "there is no coercion in religion" 2:256.) Famous Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun, who is revered in the West for his "progressive" insights, also puts to rest the notion that jihad is "defensive" warfare:

In the Muslim community, the holy war [jihad] is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force...The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... They are merely required to establish their religion among their own people. That is why the Israeilites after Moses and Joshua remained unconcerned with royal authority [e.g. a "caliphate"]. Their only concern was to establish their religion [not spread it to the nations]… But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations (The Muqudimmah, vol. 1 pg. 473).


Perhaps what is most unique about the sword-verses is the fact that when juxtaposed to their Old Testament counterparts, they are especially distinct for using language that transcends time and space, inciting believers to attack and slay non-believers today no less than yesterday. Yahweh commanded the Hebrews to kill Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites—all specific peoples rooted to a specific time and place. At no time did Yahweh give an open-ended command for the Hebrews, and by extension their descendants the Jews, to fight and kill gentiles. On the other hand, though Islam's original enemies were, like Judaism's, historical (e.g., Christian Byzantines and pagan Persians), the Koran rarely singles them out by their proper names. Instead, Muslims were (and are) commanded to fight the people of the book—"until they pay tribute with willing submission and feel themselves utterly subdued" (Koran 9:29) and to "slay the pagans wherever you find them" (Koran 9:5).

The two conjunctions "until" (hata) and "wherever" (haythu) demonstrate the perpetual and ubiquitous nature of these commandments: there are still "people of the book" who have yet to be "utterly subdued" (especially in the Americas, Europe, and Israel) and "pagans" to be slain "wherever" one looks (especially Asia and sub-Saharan Africa). In fact, the salient feature of almost all of the violent commandments in Islamic scriptures is their open-ended and generic nature: "Fight them [non-Muslims] until there is no more chaos and all religion belongs to Allah" (Koran 8:39). Also, in a well-attested tradition that appears in the most authentic hadith collections, Muhammad proclaims:

I have been commanded to wage war against mankind until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and that they establish prostration prayer, and pay the alms-tax [i.e., convert to Islam]. If they do so, their blood and property are protected [Sahih Muslim C9B1N31; also in Sahih Bukhari B2N24].

Aside from the divine words of the Koran, Muhammad's pattern of behavior—his "Sunna" or "example"—is an extremely important source of legislation in Islam. Muslims are exhorted to emulate Muhammad in all walks of life: "You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern [of conduct]" (Koran 33:21). And Muhammad's pattern of conduct vis-à-vis non-Muslims is quite explicit. Sarcastically arguing against the concept of "moderate" Islam, terrorist Osama bin Laden, who enjoys half the Arab-Islamic world's support per an al-Jazeera poll, portrays the prophet's Sunna thus:

"Moderation" is demonstrated by our prophet who did not remain more than three months in Medina without raiding or sending a raiding party into the lands of the infidels to beat down their strongholds and seize their possessions, their lives, and their women" (from The Al-Qaeda Reader, page 56).

In fact, based on both the Koran and Muhammad's Sunna, pillaging and plundering infidels, enslaving their children, and placing their women in concubinage is well founded (e.g. 4:24, 4:92, 8:69, 24:33, 33:50, etc.). And the concept of "Sunna"—which is what 90% of the billion plus Muslims, the "Sunnis," are named after—essentially asserts that anything performed or approved by Muhammad and his early companions is applicable for Muslims today no less than yesterday. This does not mean that Muslims in mass are wild hedonists who live only to plunder and rape. But it does mean that those particular persons who are naturally inclined to such activities, and who also happen to be Muslim, can—and do—quite easily justify their actions by referring to the "Sunna of the Prophet"—the way al-Qaeda, for example, justifies its attacks on 9/11 where innocents, including women and children, were killed: Muhammad authorized his followers to use catapults during their siege of the town of Taif in 630 A.D., though he was aware that women and children were sheltered there. Also, when asked if it was permissible to launch night raids or set fire to the fortifications of the infidels if women and children were among them, the prophet is said to have responded, "They are from among them" (Sahih Muslim B19N4321).

While law-centric and legalistic, Judaism has no such equivalent to the Sunna; the words and deeds of the patriarchs, though recorded in the Old Testament, never went on to be part of Jewish law. Neither Abraham's "white-lies," nor Jacob's perfidy, nor Moses' short-fuse, nor David's adultery, nor Solomon's philandering ever went on to instruct Jews or Christians. They were merely understood to be historical actions perpetrated by fallible men who were often punished by God for their less than ideal behavior.

.
http://www.meforum.org/2105/judeo-christian-violence-vs-islamic-violence

T-Rock
03-18-2010, 22:10
As for Christianity, much of the Old Testament law was abrogated by Jesus. "Eye for an eye" gave way to "turn the other cheek." Totally loving God and one's neighbor became supreme law (Matt 22:38-40). Furthermore, Jesus' "Sunna"—as in "What would Jesus do?"—is characterized by altruism. The New Testament contains absolutely no exhortations to violence. Still, there are some who strive to portray Jesus as having a similar militant ethos as Muhammad by quoting the verse where Jesus—who "spoke to the multitudes in parables and without a parable spoke not" (Matt 13:34)—said, "I come not to bring peace but a sword" (Matt 10:34). But based on the context of this statement, it is clear that Jesus was not commanding violence against non-Christians, but was predicting that strife will often exist between Christian converts and their environment—a prediction that was only too true as early Christians, far from taking up the sword, passively perished by the sword in martyrdom (as they still do today in many Muslim nations). At any rate, how can one honestly compare this one New Testament verse that metaphorically mentions the word "sword" to the literally hundreds of Koranic injunctions and statements by Muhammad that clearly command Muslims to take up a very real sword against non-Muslims?

And it is from here that one can best appreciate the Crusades. However one interprets these wars—as offensive or defensive, just or unjust—it is evident that they were not based on the "Sunna" of Jesus, who exhorted his followers to "love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you" (Matt 5:44).

In fact, far from suggesting anything intrinsic to Christianity, the Crusades ironically help better explain Islam. For what the Crusades demonstrated once and for all is that, irrespective of religious teachings—indeed, in the case of these so-called "Christian" Crusades, despite them—man is in fact predisposed to violence and intolerance. But this begs the question: If this is how Christians behaved—who are commanded to love, bless, and do good to their enemies who hate, curse, and persecute them—how much more can be expected of Muslims who, while sharing the same violent tendencies, are further validated by the Deity's command to attack, kill, and plunder non-believers?
http://www.meforum.org/2105/judeo-christian-violence-vs-islamic-violence

T-Rock
03-18-2010, 22:12
As for what was highlighted in the original article:

an outreach technique that some Baptist missionaries use with Muslims. It involves stressing commonalities between the Koran and the Bible and affirming that the Allah of the Koran and the God of the Bible are one and the same.

If Allah's revelation to the prophet Muhammad, as most all Muslims proclaim today, particularly ISNA-
http://www.isna.net/Interfaith/pages/Lesson-Four.aspx
-That Muhammad’s perfectly divine revelation that ALL Arabs were the other children of Abraham - through the line of Abraham's son Ishmael by the Egyptian maidservant Hagar - How can Muhammad’s divine proclamation that ALL Arabs from Ishmael's line be true, since neither Ishmael's father (a Jew), nor his mother Hagar (an Egyptian), were Arabs? Wasn’t Muhammad a Yemeni?

Ishmael's wife was Egyptian.

Muhammad was not from the line of Ishmael, and since he supposedly received his divine revelation (perfect) from Allah, what does that make him?

If in fact IshmaEL worshiped Allah, why wouldn’t his name be Ishma’llah?

The God of Israel and the God of the Qur’an are polar opposites.

El vs. llah makes for some interesting reading :D

> http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/allahs_identity.htm

Surgicalcric
03-18-2010, 22:48
How "open" can a conversation be on any topic if one party insists he or she knows the "truth," that others do not, and that it is his or her responsibility to meet the "need" for the "truth"?

Sounds like a history professor I once had.

As my Brother says, "and so it goes."

Crip

dr. mabuse
03-20-2010, 21:45
*

The Reaper
03-20-2010, 22:22
I think people are entitled to believe what they want to believe. If you want to believe that God made the world in seven days, or that your God is better than my God, that is okay with me. If you think your God speaks to you through a cow, or lives in a rock, that is your business, unless he is telling you to do harm to others.

Who am I to question someone else's faith?

As long as I don't have to pay for it, or deal with the consequences of it, you worship whatever you want, and let me do the same.

If you decide to share it with me, and I decline, you would be wise not to bring it up again.

At the same time, it occurs to me that it is popular sport to bash Christians these days, and many who do fail to do the same to Muslims, for whatever reason.

If your religion is currently advocating killing or subjugating non-believers, and you are actively pursuing that goal, then I believe that I have the natural right to take whatever action I deem appropriate to stop you from doing so any longer.

That is my Religion 101, in a nutshell.

TR

orion5
03-20-2010, 22:51
I think people are entitled to believe what they want to believe. If you want to believe that God made the world in seven days, or that your God is better than my God, that is okay with me. If you think your God speaks to you through a cow, or lives in a rock, that is your business, unless he is telling you to do harm to others.

Who am I to question someone else's faith?

As long as I don't have to pay for it, or deal with the consequences of it, you worship whatever you want, and let me do the same.

If you decide to share it with me, and I decline, you would be wise not to bring it up again.

At the same time, it occurs to me that it is popular sport to bash Christians these days, and many who do fail to do the same to Muslims, for whatever reason.

If your religion is currently advocating killing or subjugating non-believers, and you are actively pursuing that goal, then I believe that I have the natural right to take whatever action I deem appropriate to stop you from doing so any longer.

That is my Religion 101, in a nutshell.

Beautiful, TR. I've never seen it put so succinctly. I would love to send that whole post to CNN.

o5