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JJ_BPK
03-12-2010, 13:58
I cryed when I read this officers account of the outragious conditions he must work under,,, NOT.. :mad:




Interview with a Drone Pilot, 'It Is Not a Video Game'

US Major Bryan Callahan is a pilot. But while he sits in front of a monitor in America, his plane is flying over Afghanistan. In an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE, he speaks about what flying drones is like, the difficulties of waging war in shifts and the daily stresses of his job.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Major Callahan, you started out flying F-16 jets. Now you are flying remote controlled drones -- also known as RPAs. What are the differences?

Major Bryan Callahan: The first big difference is to get your brain around the fact that you drop yourself into an airplane that's already airborne and on target on the other side of the world. Then you fly that for a period of time, and then you just hand it over to someone else. Before, when you're flying a regular plane, you go in, you do your briefing, you walk out the door, you go up, you exercise your mission, you land and you debrief. Now you walk into work, and you essentially tap a guy on the shoulder, get a quick lowdown about what's going on and then continue the flight, and then a few hours later someone else will tap you on the shoulder and relieve you. It's very different. It takes a little while to get used to.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is it harder or easier?

Callahan: In some ways it's harder, in some ways it's easier. If you fly an F-16, it's a high-performance airplane, and you're responsible for a lot of different weapons and sensors. You fly, and an hour later you come back. It is a very finite execution. With an RPA, you may very well be working that operation for weeks. It takes a lot of coordination, there are a lot of other agencies involved that I had never dealt with before. It's very much more networked. An RPA is not nearly as high-performance, as robust, and when you're trying to fly that from the other side of the world with a little bit of delay, you can't just look out the window. That can get challenging, mentally.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: And afterwards you just drive home.

Callahan: In the morning you carpool or you take a bus and drive into work, you operate for an eight-hour shift, and then you drive back home.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is it not difficult to switch back and forth from war to civilian life every day?

Callahan: Yeah, people talk about that plenty with their families. We'll probably be studying the effects of that for a long time to come. Before you were at war 24/7, and when you're home you're home. This is different. I do e-mails in the morning, rush to the airplane, come out, go to the BX (editor's note: Base Exchange), get myself a hamburger, do some more e-mail, do it again, drive home. It's an adjustment.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How do you deal with that?

Callahan: Pilots are pretty good at compartmentalizing. They teach you that early and often. You need to tuck those things away and put them where they belong. We're pretty good at it.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What is it you're tucking away?

Callahan: There's stress, but it's different. With an F-16, you're talking about an hour straight of pure adrenalin rush, part of it is personal survival, keeping yourself upright and safe. With an RPA it's more of a slow burn. But you still get pretty well invested in what it is you do. You get more attached than you would think from being in Nevada.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How so?

Callahan: For instance, you're trying to protect those guys on the ground. You try to help those guys with whatever situation they're in. There are cases where you can't do anything immediate, and you may feel helpless.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Does your own physical safety make a difference for you?

Callahan: It sounds strange but being far away and safe is kind of a bummer. The other guys are exposing themselves, and that to me is still quite an honorable thing to do. So I feel like I'm cheating them. I'm relatively safe. If I screw up or miss something, if I screw up a shot, I wish it was me down there, not them. Sometimes I feel like I left them behind.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What are the benefits of drones, exactly?

Callahan: There are many. For instance, I can really give the ground force commander some time to figure out what to do. With an F-16, I got about 30, 45 minutes playtime, and the commander may only get a partial picture of what's going on. A drone shows up with a pretty good spread of weapons, and you get four hours of playtime. So I don't need to destroy my target right away. I can watch that guy, I can see who his friends are. When it comes time to strike I can strike everything. I can buy the ground force commander time.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Who makes the target decision?

Callahan: That depends on the mission. For the most part, it's the ground force commander who has the ultimate authority.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: So there are no specific human targets chosen back here in the US?

Callahan: That's not really the M.O. of what we're doing, to look for a specific person. Our highest concern is to protect our people on the ground.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Do you think that drones will ever completely replace troops?

Callahan: I don't think so. RPAs will not replace soldiers on the ground. That's a totally different piece of national defense.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But RPAs are getting more and more common.

Callahan: True. For the Air Force, RPAs are now part of our DNA. Initially we thought okay, let's give this a try. And then it grew and it grew and it grew. Now you can't go anywhere without finding a Predator or a Reaper. We're partly a victim of our own success. Also, we operate in a war that highlights the strengths of RPAs. Their weaknesses are not much of a problem right now. They may be in future conflicts.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Which weaknesses are you talking about?

Callahan: For instance, you can't just roll your unmanned plane over and look out the window. I have to use all these very external cues, sometime we're literally using a map with pins, on the computer. In an F-16 I can use my eyeballs, I can build what we call situational awareness in two seconds flat. I have the ability to strike a target quickly.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Some have describe flying drones as turning war into a video game.

Callahan: Killing someone with an RPA is not different than with an F-15. It's easy to think that, to fall down that trap. We're well aware that if you push that button somebody can go away. It's not a video game. You take it very seriously. It's by far nowhere near a video game.
Interview conducted by Marc Pitzke in New York

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,682842,00.html




I can see it now,, Air Force Pilot circum to PTSD after flying UAV's for hundreds of missions..

People don't understand how hard it is!!!

Joe_Snuffy
03-12-2010, 14:03
I've seen an article of this nature before.

Until they've been in a dusty country, with no water to shower with for a couple weeks at a time, and chow that causes dysentery on a GOOD day they've got no right to bitch.

The only PTSD they should be suffer is from how guilty they feel for not actually being IN the fight.

But that's just how I see it.

greenberetTFS
03-12-2010, 14:27
I've seen an article of this nature before.

Until they've been in a dusty country, with no water to shower with for a couple weeks at a time, and chow that causes dysentery on a GOOD day they've got no right to bitch.

The only PTSD they should be suffer is from how guilty they feel for not actually being IN the fight.

But that's just how I see it.

JS,sure makes a good point........... PTSD seems to have exploded into the ranks of so many vets recently,I just wonder !!!!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

caveman
03-12-2010, 15:48
I won't dispute the claims in the article but I will offer a little insight into the Army UAV community.

I personally work in the UAV field. I'm part of a company that flies the MQ-5B Hunter, an airframe that is showing it's age considerably but is still very effective given advances in the technology of the payloads it carries.

Our operators, unlike the Air Force, are enlisted men and women. The MOS is 15W, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Operator. The typical "new guy" is a E-2 male who is nineteen years old, perhaps because the recruiters do pitch it towards the video game crowd. That's right, Privates are responsible for the ISR support you guys get :D

The Hunter is controlled by the One System Ground Control Station (OSGCS) which is basically a box on the back of a HMMWV (like a camper in the bed of a pickup) which, with a software change is also used to control the RQ-7 Shadow. These OSGCS' are parked on the side of select airfields in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our operators deploy just like other Combat Support MOS' Army wide.

In my experience in Iraq, I've not deployed to Afghanistan yet, 95% of the time what happens in these OSGCS' (commonly referred to as "Shelters") is mind numbingly boring. The other 5% is typically overwatch on DA type operations involving the people and peers of those whom this site is dedicated to as well as some more conventional units and the IA.

I have only know two people who have experienced anything remotely PTSD worthy. One was a buddy who was overwatching a convoy and spotted insurgents emplacing an IED some distance ahead of the convoy but due to delays in communication the convoy wasn't warned in time to prevent the detonation of the bomb beneath an American vehicle. He definitely had some pretty serious guilt about not being able to help more and of course the helplessness he felt while he watched it happen. He got over it and drove on, he realized that our operations save many American lives and is now a well-adjusted government contractor doing the same job but making MUCH more money.

The other was a friend of mine who was run over by the aircraft during recovery operations, he got a nice scar on his forehead from where his head struck the wing. He was a little gun shy for a bit but was back three days later.

I am not an operator, I'm the Quality Control NCOIC which means I sign off on all the maintenance done on the aircraft. I suppose given the content of this post and my profile any of you could figure out exactly who I am and who I work for with a little work so if you have any questions, save yourself the trouble and PM me, I'll be happy to answer questions that don't go into TTP's and OPSEC related topics.

Guy
03-13-2010, 22:59
One was a buddy who was overwatching a convoy and spotted insurgents emplacing an IED some distance ahead of the convoy but due to delays in communication the convoy wasn't warned in time to prevent the detonation of the bomb beneath an American vehicle. He definitely had some pretty serious guilt about not being able to help more and of course the helplessness he felt while he watched it happen.I would have conducted a suicide attack "on the insurgents" by UAV.:D

I probably would've been court-martialed also.....:lifter

Stay safe.

alright4u
03-13-2010, 23:16
I won't dispute the claims in the article but I will offer a little insight into the Army UAV community.

I personally work in the UAV field. I'm part of a company that flies the MQ-5B Hunter, an airframe that is showing it's age considerably but is still very effective given advances in the technology of the payloads it carries.

Our operators, unlike the Air Force, are enlisted men and women. The MOS is 15W, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Operator. The typical "new guy" is a E-2 male who is nineteen years old, perhaps because the recruiters do pitch it towards the video game crowd. That's right, Privates are responsible for the ISR support you guys get :D

The Hunter is controlled by the One System Ground Control Station (OSGCS) which is basically a box on the back of a HMMWV (like a camper in the bed of a pickup) which, with a software change is also used to control the RQ-7 Shadow. These OSGCS' are parked on the side of select airfields in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our operators deploy just like other Combat Support MOS' Army wide.

In my experience in Iraq, I've not deployed to Afghanistan yet, 95% of the time what happens in these OSGCS' (commonly referred to as "Shelters") is mind numbingly boring. The other 5% is typically overwatch on DA type operations involving the people and peers of those whom this site is dedicated to as well as some more conventional units and the IA.

I have only know two people who have experienced anything remotely PTSD worthy. One was a buddy who was overwatching a convoy and spotted insurgents emplacing an IED some distance ahead of the convoy but due to delays in communication the convoy wasn't warned in time to prevent the detonation of the bomb beneath an American vehicle. He definitely had some pretty serious guilt about not being able to help more and of course the helplessness he felt while he watched it happen. He got over it and drove on, he realized that our operations save many American lives and is now a well-adjusted government contractor doing the same job but making MUCH more money.

The other was a friend of mine who was run over by the aircraft during recovery operations, he got a nice scar on his forehead from where his head struck the wing. He was a little gun shy for a bit but was back three days later.

I am not an operator, I'm the Quality Control NCOIC which means I sign off on all the maintenance done on the aircraft. I suppose given the content of this post and my profile any of you could figure out exactly who I am and who I work for with a little work so if you have any questions, save yourself the trouble and PM me, I'll be happy to answer questions that don't go into TTP's and OPSEC related topics.

My first thought after reading the article was this was a job for a serious video gamer like many teens. I bet plenty of 18-19 year olds would pay to play.


Seriously, I recall the UAW's being developed at Redstone.

Dozer523
03-14-2010, 00:59
Major Bryan Callahan: The first big difference is to get your brain around the fact that you drop yourself into an airplane that's already airborne and on target on the other side of the world. Then you fly that for a period of time, and then you just hand it over to someone else. Before, when you're flying a regular plane, you go in, you do your briefing, you walk out the door, you go up, you exercise your mission, you land and you debrief. Now you walk into work, and you essentially tap a guy on the shoulder, get a quick lowdown about what's going on and then continue the flight, and then a few hours later someone else will tap you on the shoulder and relieve you. It's very different. It takes a little while to get used to.

I suspect what he really has trouble getting his brain around is "who did I piss off so I'm flying this INSTEAD of an F-16"
I would have conducted a suicide attack "on the insurgents" by UAV.:DI probably would've been court-martialed also.....:lifter

Stay safe. Nah, but I doubt the Report of Survey would have gone your way.:p

Joe_Snuffy
03-14-2010, 04:31
JS,sure makes a good point........... PTSD seems to have exploded into the ranks of so many vets recently,I just wonder !!!!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

Soft living and excessive coddling by hippies leading them to be emotionally incapable of handling death and violence?

Hell I've seen worse stuff more than most of those UAV operators helping clean out vehicles that got hit with EFPs [two words: not pretty] and I'm in better mental shape than those kids who operate that Net-Gen RC Plane. Sad really.

Guy
03-14-2010, 07:42
Nah, but I doubt the Report of Survey would have gone your way.:pYou're probably right however, I'd still do it!

Just imagine dive bombing a UAV into an insurgent burying an IED.:eek:

I'd rig the wings like samurai swords, fly in low slicing their asses to shreads.:D

Stay safe.

JJ_BPK
03-14-2010, 07:48
I'd rig the wings like samurai swords, fly in low slicing their asses to shreads.:D

Stay safe.

Opportunity knocks very infrequently..

If you have the BALLS,,

Use them..

It's the difference between us & them...

:D:lifter:D

Richard
03-14-2010, 08:12
Just the tip of the iceberg... ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

afchic
03-14-2010, 15:20
I've seen an article of this nature before.

Until they've been in a dusty country, with no water to shower with for a couple weeks at a time, and chow that causes dysentery on a GOOD day they've got no right to bitch.

The only PTSD they should be suffer is from how guilty they feel for not actually being IN the fight.

But that's just how I see it.

Until you have actually spoken to one of these officers I suggest you reserve judgment. Whether you want to believe it or not, they are IN the fight. Maybe not in the same manner as those on the ground, but it isn't like they are doing nothing. Why should one feel guilty about serving their country, even if it isn't in the manner that someone such as yourself thinks is actually worth while? Have you ever spoken to anyone on the ground who has actually benefitted from what these folks do? Somehow with your assinine comment I doubt it.

My brother is a UAV squadron commander. Prior to his UAV stint he was a KC-135 and F-16 Pilot, so he has spent quite a bit of time on the ground. This is his third UAV rotation, and the FIRST in the US. The other two were in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As many of you I used to view much of this stuff in the same manner. But before you go and kick these guys in the teeth for doing the job they are doing, maybe one should take some things into consideration.

First of all, this is not a video game. These folks kill people for a living, albeit from a distance. When is the last time you killed someone at 1430 and then went home to get milk and spend the night with mom and the kids? Going from one extreme to another is not a piece of cake. I am sure that it sounds easy, but from what I have talked to my brother and his squadron mates about, it is very difficult. Granted it definitely is nice to go home every night, but most of the folks I know in this career field would much rather be spending their time overseas in the dirt, instead of having to take it home with them everynight.

PTSD, maybe that may be a stretch, but who is to say what another can handle in war? I thought the same, until I met a gentlemen that does this for a living. He would in no way claim that he has PTSD, but I knew him before he did this, and after, and he is no longer the same individual.

Say what you want about these airmen, but they signed the same paperwork the rest of us did to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, and they are doing in the manner to which the POTUS and the SecDef have told them to do it. To disparage their role in this war is beneath all of us. IMHO. Until you have walked a mile in their shoes, maybe one should reserve judgment on them.

The Reaper
03-14-2010, 15:32
IMHO, being at war without any personal risk or discomfort is kind of like playing poker for fun.

TR

akv
03-14-2010, 16:22
I respect anyone in the service defending our freedom past or present. A cynic might say if these UAV drones are doing the damage to the enemy we hear about, it's just a matter of time until one of these domestic AF bases is targeted. We've already seen it at Ft. Hood, and Al Qaeda went to considerable lengths to strike back at our CIA officers in Afghanistan. I think the GWOT has already shown us they are quite willing to target Americans anywhere.

nmap
03-14-2010, 16:34
Speculation: Why not have remotely piloted ground vehicles? Everything from supply convoys to Bradley fighting vehicles?

By the way - DARPA is making strong progress in robotic vehicles that do not require human control, even for urban driving.

LINK (http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/index.asp)

Pete
03-14-2010, 16:44
Speculation: Why not have remotely piloted ground vehicles? Everything from supply convoys to Bradley fighting vehicles?...

Why go if you don't need to go there?

Transport, air or ground, is to get you there to do something else.

But robotics will (and do) have many uses to spare human life.

afchic
03-14-2010, 17:40
IMHO, being at war without any personal risk or discomfort is kind of like playing poker for fun.

TR

Is this their choice? Or what they are ordered to do? Kind of makes a difference from my point of view.

GratefulCitizen
03-14-2010, 17:41
This thread leads to some uncomfortable questions.

What are the long-term consequences of war with minimal risk to the decision-makers?

The "Starship Troopers" issue has been brought up many times.
Some of Col. Moroney's comments also come to mind.

What happens when such specific force (as opposed to ICBMs) can be applied from relative safety?

Will future Commanders-in-Chief be too quick on the trigger?

And the big one...
What happens if this technology proves quite useful in solving domestic problems?


This is a Pandora's Box.

nmap
03-14-2010, 18:03
Along Grateful's line of thinking...

From Mauldin: LINK (http://www.frontlinethoughts.com/pdf/mwo030610.pdf)

I was particularly drawn to the personal assistant robot. It is actually plausible to design a robot to be the “maid” in a home, to be able to purchase groceries, to assist the elderly, etc. These are the repeatable types of tasks that can be programmed and learned. We may only be ten years away from a nascent and powerful new industry. Now, this is not the robot of I, Robot. It will not have intellectual conversations with you. But it will respond to voice commands and clean up, put away toys, etc. Cooking, however, other than microwave foods, is a LOT harder. You will have to make your own omelets for a few decades.

Now suppose that robot had a webcam and microphone and was connected to the internet 24/7. Time target, the 2020's.

They might be pretty effective for crowd control, too - and they wouldn't be bothered by clouds of CS.

And, too, there's a piece about do-it-yourself bioengineering. But I doubt anyone here would care about that. :D

The Reaper
03-14-2010, 19:39
Is this their choice? Or what they are ordered to do? Kind of makes a difference from my point of view.

Doing your job from a position of safety doesn't make you a hero, in my eyes. Doesn't mean you are a bad person.

I am not exactly sure how it could lead to PTSD, but I am not a clinical psychologist, either.

TR

JJ_BPK
03-14-2010, 19:59
Is this their choice? Or what they are ordered to do? Kind of makes a difference from my point of view.


I started this thread, so I'll give you my view.

The officer that was interviewed failed at least twice, in my perception.

1)trying to get sympathy for his 4 hr work shift in the air conditioned office

2)whining about the mental anguish of remote warfare

I admire all those that serve, in any capacity. I do not think a soldier is any less for not being in combat. My butt would probably not be here if not for a bunch of AF and Army gun ships depositing loud noises on the heads of my enemy..

But I have no respect for any soldier who tries these tricks. I get very annoyed when somebody tries to BS the rest of the world (or me) with his/her personal problems.

I admit I have a jaundice attitude, Having been both in combat until medically removed and then the XO of a div HQ with 500 REMF's. It may have been 40 yrs ago, but the parts I remember are as clear as yesterday.

GC's concerns about "Starship Troopers" & Pandora's Box, are real.

I don't have any links, but there have been numerous discussion about awarding Air Metals and valor awards to these AF personnel flying the UAV's while sitting in their barko loungers in air conditioned bunkers in the US.

Is it the future of war, I know it is. It doesn't mean I need to like.


This FOG's $00.0002

Guy
03-14-2010, 21:19
Doing your job from a position of safety doesn't make you a hero, in my eyes. Doesn't mean you are a bad person.

I am not exactly sure how it could lead to PTSD, but I am not a clinical psychologist, either.

TRGot up this morning for a lil PT and the first thing I feel was; the warmth in the air. Stop for a sec and think outloud..."GODDAMN! It's going too be hot this summer!"

Walk over to the vehicle, drive the 4-500meters to office, hit the coffe pot and peruse the site to take the edge off. Why?

"We'll put our shit on, stroll outside the wire (superfucking-alert for possible contact), make contact for escort back into the wire...too win hearts & minds.":cool:

Now, if a pilot "stateside" experiences this kinda "personal" ass-puckering euphoria? Send him over here...they'll be more than thrilled to head home!:D

Stay safe.

Richard
03-14-2010, 21:25
I can see the frustration - taking a high-speed fighter jock and forcing them into a slot as an 8 hour per day super geek squad video-gamer in a tricked out conex - sure would suck to me, too. ;)

Richard

mojaveman
03-14-2010, 21:58
A cynic might say if these UAV drones are doing the damage to the enemy we hear about, it's just a matter of time until one of these domestic AF bases is targeted. We've already seen it at Ft. Hood, and Al Qaeda went to considerable lengths to strike back at our CIA officers in Afghanistan. I think the GWOT has already shown us they are quite willing to target Americans anywhere.

Let's hope it doesn't happen. March Air Force Base which is just up the road from where I live is one of the locations where the drones are flown from.

There was a very interesting article in the local newspaper which stated many of the same facts as the article posted here.

caveman
03-14-2010, 22:31
I don't have any links, but there have been numerous discussion about awarding Air Metals and valor awards to these AF personnel flying the UAV's while sitting in their barko loungers in air conditioned bunkers in the US.


We don't have people getting Air Medals but they do get a safety award for every 500 hours flown without incident. Basically a certificate, sometimes with a ball cap, and always with a pat on the back.

Green Light
03-15-2010, 04:34
When is the last time you killed someone at 1430 and then went home to get milk and spend the night with mom and the kids?
Panama. Just sayin'.

afchic
03-15-2010, 09:28
I started this thread, so I'll give you my view.

The officer that was interviewed failed at least twice, in my perception.

1)trying to get sympathy for his 4 hr work shift in the air conditioned office

2)whining about the mental anguish of remote warfare

I admire all those that serve, in any capacity. I do not think a soldier is any less for not being in combat. My butt would probably not be here if not for a bunch of AF and Army gun ships depositing loud noises on the heads of my enemy..

But I have no respect for any soldier who tries these tricks. I get very annoyed when somebody tries to BS the rest of the world (or me) with his/her personal problems.

I admit I have a jaundice attitude, Having been both in combat until medically removed and then the XO of a div HQ with 500 REMF's. It may have been 40 yrs ago, but the parts I remember are as clear as yesterday.

GC's concerns about "Starship Troopers" & Pandora's Box, are real.

I don't have any links, but there have been numerous discussion about awarding Air Metals and valor awards to these AF personnel flying the UAV's while sitting in their barko loungers in air conditioned bunkers in the US.

Is it the future of war, I know it is. It doesn't mean I need to like.


This FOG's $00.0002

I agree with what you are saying about the whining. My post was in more of the overall context of UAV pilots in general, not this one in particular.

AngelsSix
03-15-2010, 09:54
IMHO, being at war without any personal risk or discomfort is kind of like playing poker for fun.

TR

Absolutely! As usual, summed up quite nicely sir!!:D

98G
03-15-2010, 10:03
I started this thread, so I'll give you my view.

The officer that was interviewed failed at least twice, in my perception.

1)trying to get sympathy for his 4 hr work shift in the air conditioned office

2)whining about the mental anguish of remote warfare

I admire all those that serve, in any capacity. I do not think a soldier is any less for not being in combat. My butt would probably not be here if not for a bunch of AF and Army gun ships depositing loud noises on the heads of my enemy..

But I have no respect for any soldier who tries these tricks. I get very annoyed when somebody tries to BS the rest of the world (or me) with his/her personal problems.

I admit I have a jaundice attitude, Having been both in combat until medically removed and then the XO of a div HQ with 500 REMF's. It may have been 40 yrs ago, but the parts I remember are as clear as yesterday.

GC's concerns about "Starship Troopers" & Pandora's Box, are real.

I don't have any links, but there have been numerous discussion about awarding Air Metals and valor awards to these AF personnel flying the UAV's while sitting in their barko loungers in air conditioned bunkers in the US.

Is it the future of war, I know it is. It doesn't mean I need to like.


This FOG's $00.0002

Agreed on the larger implications. I cannot help but to wonder if the interviewer annoyed him and that his answers were laced heavily with sarcasm. (it reads as rather amusingly in this context). When an interview is just transcribed like this, it is easy to sound like a self pitying loser instead of an old fighter pilot trying to explain why he is not playing x-box every day but affecting lives -- and it matters. Of course, he could have been sincere and had no sarcasm in his voice and therefore is just a whiner.

Since he at least put on a uniform in time of war, I'll give him the courtesy of not being a total idiot and just a bad interviewee. No more press for him.

As for remote wars, the future seemed to head that way in the nuclear age but the
fall out (no pun intended) was too high. Technology could get us to a "push the button" scenario at a much lower threshold, IMHO.

craigepo
03-15-2010, 10:34
I have read some articles, which opined that the pilot-less combat plane will be an increasing part of our force in the future. Part of the reason for this is that technology has increased to a point where our pilots are unable to cope with the performance-possibilities of new and future aircraft. Additionally, designing a plane to fly w/o a human therein allows for more payload, performance, gear, etc.

I doubt we will ever be without pilots. However, I am curious as to whether the current discussion is still considering human-less combat.

Kind of weird, growing up idolizing the cigar-chewing fighter jocks from WWII, to think that future air superiority might be gained by pimple-faced kids, sitting at terminals with comfy chairs and joysticks.

JJ_BPK
03-15-2010, 11:08
I doubt we will ever be without pilots.

Oh but we will...

My son-in-law is currently working on the X47B UCAS. It is a F-18 sized UAV that will land on a flat-top some time this summer or fall.

The kicker,, There is no pilot in the AC office, none, nadda, No Tom Crouise Wanna-Bee.. And the Air-Boss doesn't need to speak nor read Scientology.

You load a mission via computer, the UCAS takes off, flies, re-fuels, executes, and returns to land all by itself. Has a 30+ hr hang time,,, and doesn't need potty breaks..

http://www.as.northropgrumman.com/products/nucasx47b/index.html

The AF doesn't want to hear about UCAS and for some reason the Navy does?? I'm guessing the Big Boat guys want to dump the fly boys and get back to what ever they do in those hot-bunks??

In the next 10 to 20 years, war as it has been known for the last 20,000 years will drastically change,,, with one exception..

We will still have boots on the ground with the means to engage and kill the enemy...

The times, they are a changing.. Bob Dylan, released January 16, 1963

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKm65xLpwIM

XJWoody
03-15-2010, 12:15
We don't have people getting Air Medals but they do get a safety award for every 500 hours flown without incident. Basically a certificate, sometimes with a ball cap, and always with a pat on the back.


The other was a friend of mine who was run over by the aircraft during recovery operations, he got a nice scar on his forehead from where his head struck the wing. He was a little gun shy for a bit but was back three days later.


No ball cap for this guy? :eek: I apologise for LOLing but this reminded me of a raw deal during an O & I school skit. A QP student and myself about got munched by a Pilatus Porter out in some Pineland peanut field.

Sigaba
03-15-2010, 15:28
FWIW/FYI, PBS's Frontline spent part of a recent episode centering around virtual reality discussing UAVs and their crews. Video is available here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/waging-war/remote-control-war/). P.W. Singer offers a number of observations. (The guy sure gets around.)

akv
03-15-2010, 16:39
Originally Posted by craigepo
I doubt we will ever be without pilots.

Maybe this evolves similar to the decision to take guns off of fighters, since missiles could do everything and dogfighting was obsolete. It seems to be evolving that way, until the enemy figures out a way to jam the guidance controls turning UAV's into dumb rockets, or worse taking control of them and turning them back onto us. At this point, we might want pilots again? I guess I'm a luddite, but doesn't it seem the human brain can adapt past any technology.

GratefulCitizen
03-15-2010, 21:21
In the next 10 to 20 years, war as it has been known for the last 20,000 years will drastically change,,, with one exception..

We will still have boots on the ground with the means to engage and kill the enemy...


This new technology would seem to make it very easy to start a war.
Finishing a war is another matter.


This technology also tends to centralize power and authority.
One can easily think of many problems which could result.
Even worse, what about all the problems we haven't/can't think of...

Just a layman here, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Dispersed authority is a key strength of the US military, is it not?

Dozer523
03-15-2010, 22:03
This new technology would seem to make it very easy to start a war.
Finishing a war is another matter. In Deed. The definition of a crisis is: when you can't pack up and say, "Let's forget the whole thing."

This technology also tends to centralize power and authority.
One can easily think of many problems which could result.
Even worse, what about all the problems we haven't/can't think of...

Just a layman here, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Dispersed authority is a key strength of the US military, is it not? Maybe the same thing, but I learned the key was "centralized planning, decentralized execution".

.

JJ_BPK
03-29-2010, 14:32
Lordy Lordy,, Hallelujah there is salvation...

Those poor boys don't have to perspire in anonymity with out getting paid for it..


UAV pilots to get flight pay

By Michael Hoffman - Staff writer
Posted : Saturday Oct 10, 2009 9:13:12 EDT

Airmen will receive flight pay for the first time without ever leaving the ground.

The extra cash will go with the new unmanned aerial vehicle pilot career field approved Sept 29 by Air Force leaders at an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance summit in Washington.

Leaders also approved a career field for sensor operators, though officials are still working out the details to allow these airmen to receive flight pay.

Both UAV pilots and sensor operators, though, will receive wings for their uniforms similar to those worn by manned pilots and aircrew members.

The career fields, the incentive packages, the wings are all part of the Air Force’s ongoing shift to an unmanned fleet by 2047.

UAV pilots will receive the “18X” Air Force Specialty Code. It will be a “rated” career field and require airmen to serve a six-year active-duty service commitment.

Air Force officials have not settled on a name for the career field. Officials do not want “unmanned” in the name because Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz said the career field is anything but unmanned.

Sensor operators, enlisted airmen who sit next to the pilots and direct the sensors, will receive the “1U” AFSC, which will be a subcategory of Career Enlisted Aviators. It will require a three-year active-duty service commitment.

The new career fields will allow the service to grow UAV pilots and sensor operators from scratch. The airmen have come from other career fields to fly the remotely controlled aircraft, mostly MQ-1 Predators and MQ-9 Reapers, which are playing a key role in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Top leaders know that transferring airmen from manned aircraft to UAVs is a short-term solution to a long-term mission area, said Col. Trey Turner, chief of the operational training division.

“We’d like to be able to grow these guys into a professional corps of airmen in the system and be able to retain them and provide a career path that looks like any other career path in the Air Force,” he said.

Manned pilots and imagery analysts are now UAV pilots and sensor operators will keep their AFSC designations. Airmen must complete the UAV pilot and sensor operator training regimens to earn the new career field designations.

Despite the recognition from leadership, airmen still have plenty of questions. The biggest one: How much flight pay for senor operators?

Federal law dictates what military members earn. While officers are allowed to receive Aviation Career Incentive Pay — the amount can reach $840 a month — without leaving the ground, it’s written in the law that enlisted airmen must be airborne to receive Career Enlisted Flier Incentive Pay. UAV sensor operators never leave the ground.

Pentagon officials are working to get the law changed, Turner said. It is uncertain how much sensor operators would receive, but manned enlisted aircrews receive as much as $400 per month each.

A career field will make it easier to promote sensor operators. Before, they had to take imagery analyst Weighted Airmen Performance tests. However, their job differed from traditional imagery work, putting them behind for promotions.

Officials have already started to outline WAPs tests for sensor operators that will deal with the basics of operating UAV sensors, said Lt. Col. Dewey DuHadway, chief of rated force policy for the Air Force personnel directorate.

The sensor operator career field should take the strain off the imagery analysis career field. Imagery analysts are also needed to produce intelligence products from the video and SIGINT collected from the UAVs.

The career field announcement came four days after the first non-rated officers completed MQ-1 initial qualifying training.

The eight airmen make up the first of two classes that the Air Force assembled to determine whether airmen without aviation experience could fly Reapers and Predators. They will be the first 18Xs

At the graduation, Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told the new UAV pilots “you are part of the major new development of the decade. This cultural change for our Air Force has to do both with the future of these unmanned systems, and how we see ourselves as airmen.”

Leaders had their doubts whether the non-rated officers would complete the training, said DuHadway, the personnel expert,

“I think the biggest lesson from the front end is that it can be done. We took people from different training backgrounds and they were successfully able to complete Predator MQ-1 Flying Training Unit initial qualification training,” he said. “I don’t think there was consensus that people would be able to make it to that point.”

The second class of UAV pilots will graduate next spring. Turner, though, predicted the service won’t wait for the class — made up mostly of officers directly out of the Air Force Academy, Reserve Officers' Training Corps and Officer Training School — to graduate before starting more classes.

Officials, though, want to expand the training pipeline; right now, 10 officers can start training every other month, Turner said.

The service plans to advertise for more volunteers to train into the UAV pilot career field “in the next couple weeks,” Turner said. At that point, officials can start targeting who will start training next.

Officials didn’t specify the size of the sensor operator training pipeline. However, 150 “1N1” imagery analysts and 25 “1A” aircrew members have volunteered to transfer over to “1U” sensor operators, DuHadway said.

“What we need to do now is figure out what we learned from the two groups that went through, and make any adjustments to the course,” he said.


http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/10/airforce_uas_career_100909w/



Now the AF has an 18X program???

Green Light
03-29-2010, 17:18
I don't think it's the same stress level as that first time you have someone in your sights and you click from safe to semi. Sorry, I just don't see it. Making the decision of life and death on a screen isn't the same as laying there in the weeds getting ready to end someone's life. They're making it way too dramatic. Even a guy in an F-16 has to worry about small arms and some goon with a tube on his shoulder. If they can't shoot back, it's not combat. If you aren't off the ground, it isn't flying.

Maybe if they turned off the AC. :D

Snaquebite
03-29-2010, 17:24
Making the decision of life and death on a screen isn't the same as laying there in the weeds

The UAV operators don't make those decisions.

caveman
03-29-2010, 20:25
The UAV operators don't make those decisions.

Very true, the intel our guys gather is passed up to people of a bit higher pay grade.

Richard
03-30-2010, 05:14
It might be of interest to do a study on the effects of such virtual reality death dealing and its impact on those who grow up under the virtual reality generation's world vs us older 'real world' reality ffolkes. ;)

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Danimal18C
03-30-2010, 09:02
I must add that being a UAV pilot is NOT being IN the fight. I understand that these airmen serve a valuable part to our war effort, mainly command and contol and covering SOTF and CJSOTF commanders asses from the out-of-control trigger happy operators on the ground. I don't care if they are killing real people, or watching real Americans die, it is not the same as having someone you personally know, someone you talk to, and share the war experience and watch them lose their life. Like driving past a car wreck on the highway...Killing targets on a screen is not the same as shooting it out with insurgents, ignoring your own safety while bullets and rocket propelled grenades soar over your head, and then reveling in the sweet victory of vanquishing your foe by looking at his dead body at your feet. There is no personal connection with "remote warfare" and I find any insinuation that it is comparable to what ground forces do, to be insulting. Anyone who has been "in the fight" knows damn well what I am talking about.

I thank UAV pilots for imagery and ISR, they are serving their country. I thank the refuelers that pause their X-box and turn on the JP-8 Pumps at 3am when we roll in from a gunfight and have to fuel our vehicles, they are serving their country. I thank the KBR chow hall cooks for slapping cold chicken cordon bleu on my cardboard dinner tray while collecting $90,000.00 a year, they serving their country. I thank those people for being a part of the War, but In the Fight means risking it all, and staying focused and lethal when your ass is on the line. Service is worthy of commendation, but not all service is equal!

Team Sergeant just posted a thread about Col. Bob Howard. The men on my ODA and myself have seen action and been on multiple deployments, but I would never have the audacity or disrespect to compare my service to his. There are men in this country that have done amazing things, and I would honor them with my humility and reverence that they have surpassed anything I have ever accomplished or been a part of. I would appreciate if support soldiers did the same.

It is PANDEMIC in the military for individual soldiers to feel compelled to compare ones service to another. I can't recall how many people have lied to me about their service because they felt they needed justify themselves as a peer of mine. I was a 71L prior to going SF. That's a personnel administrator for those that don't know. It wasn't the job I wanted to do in the Army, but MEPs told me I had mild color deficiency and I was limited to one of two enlistment choices. I wasn't proud of being a clerk, I didn't brag about how bad ass my S-3 section was... I did my fucking job to the best of my abilities, and when the opportunity presented itself, I changed my life to strive for excellence in the form of a green beret. People should be satisfied by the role they fill... if your job makes you feel lacking or insecure about your contribution to the War... then get your ass to Selection.

I'm a Raven pilot... can I collect flight pay and be awarded air medals too????

Armt350
04-10-2010, 16:55
In defense of the UAV, those Ravens do cause a lot of stress. There has been a handfull of times one has been thrown up and seemingly flown directly into my flight path unanounced.

"hey XXXX, you have anyone moving in that culvert ?"

"I have got a couple hotsOHSH%$RAVEN"

makes my heart beat just a little faster.

Last hard class
04-10-2010, 19:49
At least we now know who answers to the term"operator".





But I have no respect for any soldier who tries these tricks. I get very annoyed when somebody tries to BS the rest of the world (or me) with his/her personal problems.

I admit I have a jaundice attitude, Having been both in combat until medically removed and then the XO of a div HQ with 500 REMF's. It may have been 40 yrs ago, but the parts I remember are as clear as yesterday.


Sir. I can't do PT today.
Why not?
It makes me sweat.
So?
When I sweat it gives me the bumps. When I get the bumps I have to go on shaving profile.

Spartan359
04-15-2010, 09:30
My first thought after reading the article was this was a job for a serious video gamer like many teens. I bet plenty of 18-19 year olds would pay to play.




Hell, I'm 28 and I'd do that job for free. ;)

Counsel
04-15-2010, 15:07
IMHO, I submit that an easy way to determine if they are in the fight is to imagine the fight without them. I mean, answering the question of how essential are they to the fight would suggest if they are really in the fight. The answer to this, of course, is left to others that have been there and done that.

Hey, is it hot over there also? :cool: