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I suspect many would consider Ruth Nasrullah a moderate Muslim. Would she have been alright had Jesus been profaned? Miss Nasrullah is a frequent blogger on the Houston Chronicles "Believe Out Loud, Houston Belief" website.
March 09, 2010
Jesus at the mall
I hate clothes shopping, so I admit I was already a little irritated yesterday when I stood looking at jeans in a large department store and realized that I was no longer hearing the overhead muzak but rather Christian songs playing rather loudly from a radio at my feet. I was confused at first, and then annoyed. It wasn't a Christian store, and I'm not Christian. Moreover, the fact that Jesus was being praised while I, wearing hijab, shopped gave me an unwelcome feeling and then ticked me off.
I went to the customer service department and told the woman at the desk that I wanted to point out that this music was being played and that it was troubling. She called a manager, who immediately assured me she would have the music stopped.
I left the store, and all afternoon wondered if I had done the right thing, but more importantly if my response had been warranted.
I wrote a post a while back about another situation where I unexpectedly felt like an outsider in a Christian world, but concluded that a private place of business can play whatever music they choose to, and if I don't like it I can go elsewhere. But this wasn't the department store playing the music; it was apparently some employees who had chosen to drown out the store's music with a Christian radio station.
I suspect there was also a latent cultural bias behind my irritation. I don't think this would ever happen in the northeast, the part of the country that I will always think of as home. A Christian radio station playing in a well-known department store - I just can't imagine it happening, or at least not happening without protest. That's the norm I'm familiar with.
So what's your take? Were the employees right to listen to Christian music while they worked? Was I right to be offended? I'm entirely open to discussion because I'm not certain my response was right. I can only say that every time I think about it I just can't help but feel they were wrong to play religious music in a non-religious setting.
Posted by Ruth Nasrullah at March 9, 2010 09:52 AM
Link (http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpath/2010/03/jesus_at_the_mall.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+houstonchronicle%2Fthestraigh tpath+%28Reader+blog%3A+The+Straight+Path%29)
GreenSalsa
03-10-2010, 05:15
Instead of complaining just shop elsewhere.
YOUR Store, YOUR Music. I will reward or punish you with my business and frankly so will the larger community.
I usually draw the line at when YOUR music or YOUR activity, boil out into public space.
Personally as a manager, I would have been polite and apologize that the music "offended her" but wouldn't change a thing and suggest she shop somewhere else--say 8-9 thousand miles away, where that choice wouldn't be an option.
So what's your take? Were the employees right to listen to Christian music while they worked? Was I right to be offended? I'm entirely open to discussion because I'm not certain my response was right. I can only say that every time I think about it I just can't help but feel they were wrong to play religious music in a non-religious setting.
Posted by Ruth Nasrullah at March 9, 2010 09:52 AM
My $00.0002
The Cause: She is showing how much of a bigot she is. :mad:
The Cure: Go to another store, or better, another country where her bigotry is tolerated and/or encouraged.. :D
Back-side: The store should allow the employees to organize and vote in a union, so they can get paid to play the music of their choice. I'm hoping they pick Barry Manilow :eek:
PS: I am not one of those that espouse inclusion. Humans have been selectively bigoted sense the get-go. As soon as God created Eve, the Snake was put on the "do not invite" list.
:rolleyes:
Green Light
03-10-2010, 11:12
Go to a Muslim country and shop. When you here Muslim music be sure to complain - see how far it gets you. I don't think you'll enjoy the reception.
However, in the US, you can play whatever music you like in your shop. If it drives folks away, it's on you. Some folks go out of their way to be offended.
I have ridden in a lot of taxis here in the US playing all manner of foreign, ethnic, and religious music that seems strange to me based on my upbringing. I have managed to handle those experiences without significant psychosocial trauma.
If I went to most places in the Middle East, I would expect Muslim religious custom to permeate daily living, and I wouldn't publicly complain about it.
Ms. Nasrullah needs to realize it is a great big world out there, and everyone else isn't here on the planet to cater to her personal beliefs and selfishness.
Did she let Paul Blart know - he woulda taken care of it for her. :rolleyes:
And so it goes...
Richard
Team Sergeant
03-10-2010, 12:01
It's amusing no one sees the bigger picture. This mooslem islamic moron is not offended with the "life size" posters of scantily clad (nearly nekid) men & women in the windows of the mall, nor is she sounding off about the foul mouthed music you sometimes hear when one of "America's" youth has his IPod on too loud.
This islamic idiot is targeting christian music and damn it she wants it to stop.
Have you ever thought the individual that owns that particular store is reading the islamic idiot's blog and smiling that the music has done it's job and this islamic idiot will not be returning to his/her store again?
Deet for mosquitoes, Christian music for islamic extremists, is it really that easy?:D I can see a whole lot of stores starting to play new music.
TS
[Note to self: pick up a very loud and utterly obnoxious Jesus music for IPhone to play at malls when cloth shopping to keep the hijab wearing idiots away.;)]
Kyobanim
03-10-2010, 13:02
An enterprising store manager could really mess with their heads and play recordings of prayer times randomly throughout the day, maybe change up the store clocks for added effect.
An enterprising store manager could really mess with their heads and play recordings of prayer times randomly throughout the day, maybe change up the store clocks for added effect.
With arrows pointing....say...North?
Maybe this broad should meet RL's friend. :D
incarcerated
03-10-2010, 19:34
The Cause: She is showing how much of a bigot she is. :mad:
IMHO, she’s not just intolerant: she is seeking to further her cause by claiming discrimination in the form of having suffered offense. This dovetails nicely with our Civil Rights movement.
In this fashion, our enemies use our system and our freedoms against us.
Meanwhile:
Swedish cartoonist receives fresh death threats
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6293ZX20100310
frostfire
03-10-2010, 19:50
Some folks go out of their way to be offended. Very well said.
Deet for mosquitoes, Christian music for islamic extremists, is it really that easy?:D I can see a whole lot of stores starting to play new music.
TS
[Note to self: pick up a very loud and utterly obnoxious Jesus music for IPhone to play at malls when cloth shopping to keep the hijab wearing idiots away.;)]
LOLOLOLOLOLOL...maybe I'm high on sugar or something, but that royally cracked me up silly! I (or someone) should copy TS post and put it on the blog.
Thanks for giving a cheerful start on my day, TS.
monsterhunter
03-10-2010, 22:47
I suggest she go the **** home where they probably blast their own religious music from a loudspeaker mounted on a tower over the whole freakin' city. Don't think they would be interested in my opinion in their country.
Lucky I was NOT the store manager.:eek:;)
Stay safe.
craigepo
03-10-2010, 23:43
Unfortunately, in our society, the squeaky wheel often gets the grease.
Wonder what she would think if the Jesus jams were instead playing from every tower in town like the muslim call-to-prayer in some places I've been?
I suggest she go the **** home where they probably blast their own religious music from a loudspeaker mounted on a tower over the whole freakin' city. Don't think they would be interested in my opinion in their country.
Absolutely, let's deport her to Weehawken, or Hoboken, or ... Rutherford:eek:
They blast Bon Jovi where she is from.
Green Light
03-11-2010, 06:00
How about a pen of cute little piglets at the front door? No further problems.
Joe_Snuffy
03-11-2010, 23:59
Sadly she reminds me of those extreme leftist nuts. The same ones that want to remove 'In God We Trust' from our money and take 'Under God' from the Pledge of Allegiance.
Dozer523
03-12-2010, 06:26
Sadly she reminds me of those extreme leftist nuts. The same ones that want to remove 'In God We Trust' from our money and take 'Under God' from the Pledge of Allegiance.the Ninth circuit Court ruled yesterday that "under God" was not a violation of the Church and State clause.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j81tOd_mKmXaTFAGfXyGHHUbRloQD9ED0HJO0 This from the Ninth Circuit Court
". . . human sacrifice, dog and cats living together, mass hysteria!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0
...the Ninth circuit Court ruled yesterday that "under God" was not a violation of the Church and State clause.
Personally - I agree with their decision...as long as we don't get into defining just whose God we're talking about beyond that of the Founding Fathers who wrote:
...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Joe_Snuffy
03-12-2010, 08:59
Are we migrating into a separation of church and state discussion? Oh good.
Not to get too personal but I am neither Christian nor have a "god" of any kind , but the "In God We Trust' stuff --- that's just part of our history. I would think that there are plenty other larger fish to fry than to go after a few words in the Pledge of Allegiance or on our money. It's just silly.
The right wingers that want to bring God into everything -- well they worry me. I don't want religion in my government because I don't want government in my religion. These are two tastes that do not taste good together.
Separation of church and state was to keep the church from making laws that governed the country and to keep laws from being created that governed religion nothing more.
Oh wait. Let me retract that. That is just the most resonable interpretation that I know of in our modern day and age.
And personally I'd rather trust a higher power that is reportedly infallible than Congress. Just sayin'.
Little Edit: Anyone ever get that lovely chain email about ACLU being upset that there was a picture of service members praying [it was most likely for a ceremony of some kind]? And how we should pray on our own time? I was thinking about that today. You see, since I get paid salary, that means I'm being paid twenty-four hours a day, everyday of the year regardless what I'm doing. Since I'm being paid, that means I'm on the clock.
So when is my own time? :D
I'd rather trust a higher power that is reportedly infallible than Congress.
Let me know when you find one - the myths and rumors are killing us. :(
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
x SF med
03-12-2010, 09:53
Absolutely, let's deport her to Weehawken, or Hoboken, or ... Rutherford:eek:
They blast Bon Jovi where she is from.
I used to live in Rutherford... the indig up there blast whatever the hell they want... from Mario Lanza to Sinatra to Hip-Hop to the new home grown boys Springsteen and Bon Jovi... Jerseyites are equal opportunity offenders ...
Fuggeddaboudit.
As to the original point of this thread - if she doesn't like the music, go somewhere else to shop.
As to the original point of this thread - if she doesn't like the music, go somewhere else to shop.
She must've been the only person in the mall not wearing an i-POD and walking around in their own world who could have heard the music coming from the store.
Richard
The right wingers that want to bring God into everything -- well they worry me. I don't want religion in my government because I don't want government in my religion. These are two tastes that do not taste good together.
Would you consider the Founders right wingers?
John Adams
1776 — Thoughts on Government
It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.
Reference: The Works of John Adams, Charles Adams, ed., 221.
Thomas Jefferson
1781 — Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.
Reference: Our Sacred Honor, Bennett (352)
James Madison
1785 — A Memorial and Remonstrance
It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.
Reference: Our Sacred Honor, Bennett (327)
Benjamin Franklin
1787 — Motion for Prayers in the Constitutional Convention
And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth, that God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?
Reference: Franklin Collected Works, Lemay, ed., 1138.
George Washington
1783 — circular letter of farewell to the Army
I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.
Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (249)
Alexander Hamilton
To grant that there is a supreme intelligence who rules the world and has established laws to regulate the actions of his creatures; and still to assert that man, in a state of nature, may be considered as perfectly free from all restraints of law and government, appears to a common understanding altogether irreconcilable. Good and wise men, in all ages, have embraced a very dissimilar theory. They have supposed that the deity, from the relations we stand in to himself and to each other, has constituted an eternal and immutable law, which is indispensably obligatory upon all mankind, prior to any human institution whatever. This is what is called the law of nature....Upon this law depend the natural rights of mankind.
John Adams
1798 — Address to the Military
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
Reference: America's God and Country (10-11)
John Adams
1776 — letter to Zabdiel Adams
Statesmen my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand....The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.
Reference: Our Sacred Honor, Bennett, pg. 371.
Would you consider the Founders right wingers?
Depends on the spectrum. If you mean the political spectrum...which political theorist do you draw on to define right and left?
If the definition of right and left is concerning government control of the people with left being total control and right as having no control...ABSOLUTELY...they were right wingers.
If you use Communism vs fascism...different story. I think that is what most folks understand as right and left. In this case (IMHO) the founders didn't even fall in the spectrum.
I don't think we can go back to the Founders for everything. They are dead and gone. We have to proceed to the best of our ability on what we think and want for our society and government.
Certainly the Founders were Christian, and we can follow the letter of what they said -- or we can follow the spirit in which they said it. People came here for religious freedom, in order to worship the way they wanted -- not the way the government told them.
So...you want us to progress past what the founding fathers have established? It is old and antiquated thought that is just not pertinent today? After all, they are "dead" and all that. Additionally, who gets to determine what the "spirit" of their ideas are?
You might be sadly disappointed in your own view if I was the decider.
The Constituion and laws have to be living, breathing things that can progress with the times. My point is that if we keep looking back to the FFs, we end up with exactly what you said: old and antiquated thought that is not pertinent today.
Following that logic...personal freedom and liberty may just become another old, antiquated thought not pertinent today.
Bad idea to cherry-pick what should be included/excluded from the constitution.
When it comes to constitutional law...little things are big things.
Defion69
03-12-2010, 11:28
I don't think we can go back to the Founders for everything. They are dead and gone. We have to proceed to the best of our ability on what we think and want for our society and government.
Certainly the Founders were Christian, and we can follow the letter of what they said -- or we can follow the spirit in which they said it. People came here for religious freedom, in order to worship the way they wanted -- not the way the government told them.
Well put! You are no sheeple :D
The Reaper
03-12-2010, 11:42
I don't think we can go back to the Founders for everything. They are dead and gone. We have to proceed to the best of our ability on what we think and want for our society and government.
Certainly the Founders were Christian, and we can follow the letter of what they said -- or we can follow the spirit in which they said it. People came here for religious freedom, in order to worship the way they wanted -- not the way the government told them.
So, you are in favor of judicial activism and the reinterpretation of the Constitution by judges?
TR
Certainly the Founders were Christian, and we can follow the letter of what they said...
http://earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
And so it goes...:rolleyes:
Richard
Only if we try to be extremely literal and constructionist about it. For instance, what was being discussed on another thread...the right to bear arms--if we go strictly with what the FFs meant regarding arms, we all end up with bags of gunpowder and a handful of metal balls. A weapon that requires, what, 5 minutes to load with 1 shot?
If we take a pragmatic approach: the FFs said "arms." Ok, to us in today's world that means something entirely different than they could have ever imagined.
But you're right that both approaches can be slippery. If we are too constructionist, we can't move forward. If we are too liberal we end up with a Constitution that doesn't really mean anything and is completely watered down.
No...not ONLY if we are trying to be liberal or CONSERVATIVE. I think those are the ones that are diametrically opposed. You see...the argument you present is false. The right to bear arms is just that. It does not say the right to bear
gunpowder and metal balls. It does not limit or specify what arms are because...although they are dead and gone...during their time they did understand...just like you...that things had changed from the past.
They knew all about swords, slings, battle-axe's, bows, and arrows. I am sure they marveled at how far they had advanced from those days where it would take a person to run up to within three feet of you to kill you with a sword to being able to pick off a person from hundreds of yards away. No, ma'am, they weren't ignorant of progress.
I suppose we can agree to disagree on progressive thought. I am not a fan, as you can tell. Sometimes exposure, life experience, and age do wonders to reshape thought. I will share with you that at one point I thought much like you do.
.
I believe that you and I are actually saying the same thing in different ways. I also believe that the FFs knew things were going to change in the future -- and that's why they said "arms" rather than "little metal balls and gunpowder."
"Arms" allows more growth and interpretation based on what's necessary and efficient for any given time period.
Actually, Arms are arms. There is no interpretation. There doesnt need to be. If there is...then, by-golly, the government is imposing a restiction and limiting rights and freedoms, which, by the way, are granted by God...not man.
So, when you look at Thomas Jefferson...and read his thoughts on why it was important...you get a clearer understanding that does not follow the logic of what you are arguing. "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson. And lets not forget Madision "Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation." James Madison.
As I said in another thread...the amendments are not restrictions on persons...they are restrictions on the federal government. The right to keep and bear arms WILL NOT BE INFRINGED. and specifically pertinent to this thread, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
The following summarizes my beliefs. I cant give credit to the author...I dont know who it is, "Any discussion of Rights should begin with an understanding of the following:
Rights do not come from government. Governments can only grant privileges. Privileges that be granted can also be taken away. Rights do not come from the Constitution either. The Constitution only protects Rights by establishing a government designed to provide protection for We The People."
Thoughts?
Most words are subjective and require interpretation.
What's "funny," what's "sad." ???
You can't say arms are arms. What's an "arm" ?
This topic has already been covered ad nauseum, so I think I'm going to leave at that and let you have the last word, my friend. :o
Well, how, um, kind of you. :rolleyes: I have tired of your sophmoric argument myself. :p
Defion69
03-12-2010, 12:56
Word....last one :p
Word....last one :p
...starting...NOW!
DJ Urbanovsky
03-12-2010, 13:35
Methinks that Ruth Nasrullah needs a nice tall glass of shut the fuck up.
I'd probably feel alien too if I lived in the Middle East, so guess what? I don't fucking live there. And I don't want to.
I think it's generally socially responsible to respect the general mores of the country in which you reside. Despite our shortcomings, America is a great place to live. You don't like our culture? Then you don't have to live here.
I get so tired of the "my god can do more one handed pull-ups than your god." I'd think that by now, people would notice the similarities between all religions and perhaps recognize that maybe the reason for division rests in the fact that we humans have a tendency to fuck things up in the interpretation. "God" never shows up and speaks to everybody, he always seems to just speak to a couple of guys. And who's to say that God even really spoke to those guys? Because they said "God told me so, to my face?" Maybe some of those guys are fucking liars, and maybe they have their own personal, selfish agenda? Know what I'm sayin'?
The Reaper
03-12-2010, 13:39
Maybe it is time to write the book, "The Ugly Muslim".
Plenty of material for it, more every day from around the world.
TR
Defion69
03-12-2010, 13:42
Maybe it is time to write the book, "The Ugly Muslim".
Plenty of material for it, more every day from around the world.
TR
Now that is an excellent idea!
Joe_Snuffy
03-12-2010, 13:46
Maybe it is time to write the book, "The Ugly Muslim".
Plenty of material for it, more every day from around the world.
TR
That is the BEST idea I've heard all week! :D
greenberetTFS
03-12-2010, 14:07
Maybe it is time to write the book, "The Ugly Muslim".
Plenty of material for it, more every day from around the world.
TR
Like the guys are saying "terrific idea",only problem is that whoever does write it is signing his death warrant !!!!!...... :( Do you honestly think THEY won't put him on their list ?
Big Teddy :munchin
MOO, Ms. Nasrullah is not the problem in the situation she described but rather the members of the staff at a "large department" store (that may be owned by a corporation) who decided to impose their vision of the shopping experience on customers.
Staff members that want to turn their work environment into their own personal clubhouse by playing their own music, having stimulating political conversations, talking about this or that reality show, and other such behaviors send a clear message to all: "Customer satisfaction not spoken here."
Not only did the members of the staff blow an opportunity to make money (allegedly the purpose of retail <<LINK1 (http://www.census.gov/retail/marts/www/download/text/adv44800.txt)>>), they also exposed the store and parent corporation to the risk of litigation from other employees who may prefer not to listen to "Christian" music at work for what ever reason. (If the department store is owned by Bloomingdale's they may have been in violation of corporate policy. <<LINK2 (http://www.bloomingdalesjobs.com/common/about/EEO_Policy_6-08.pdf)>>
All for what.
DJ Urbanovsky
03-12-2010, 18:52
Sigaba, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.
If you were to walk into my shop and you asked me to turn off Zu or John Zorn or Slayer (all of which are probably as offensive as anything you're likely to hear), I'd probably tell you no. Granted, I'm not running a department store so it's not quite the same thing, but still, I am running a business. My business, my personal space, my rules.
Furthermore, I can honestly say that for as long as I've been alive, I can't ever recall walking into a place and saying to myself "This music offends me! I'm leaving!" But that's just me. I don't much care for most country music, but that's never detered me from going into Guitars and Cadillacs when I've wanted a beer. And they play speed country... ;)
Not sure I agree with you here Sigaba, I mean cannot the employees go to work for somewhere else if they don't like the music? No one forces anyone to work anywhere. Couldn't by that argument, you say a store cannot put up Christmas decorations because they could be offensive to other employees or customers? Again, no one forces anyone to work and/or shop at a particular place.
The free-enterprise system is about people being able to engage in voluntary contracts with one another, enforced by the government.
I can open a store and sell what I want and charge as high a price as I can and play whatever music in the store I want or put up whatever decorations I want. People who work for me are engaging in a voluntary contract, "I offer my services to you, you pay me in exchange." Customers shop voluntarily too.
:munchin
Every single major retail store that I have ever worked at had codified the shopping experience from the music played, the dress code and grooming standards of the people on the floor right down to the type and amount of lighting. It is not a good idea to let just anyone decide how your company is going to look to the public.
MOO, Ms. Nasrullah is not the problem in the situation she described but rather the members of the staff at a "large department" store (that may be owned by a corporation) who decided to impose their vision of the shopping experience on customers.
Staff members that want to turn their work environment into their own personal clubhouse by playing their own music, having stimulating political conversations, talking about this or that reality show, and other such behaviors send a clear message to all: "Customer satisfaction not spoken here."
Not only did the members of the staff blow an opportunity to make money (allegedly the purpose of retail <<LINK1 (http://www.census.gov/retail/marts/www/download/text/adv44800.txt)>>), they also exposed the store and parent corporation to the risk of litigation from other employees who may prefer not to listen to "Christian" music at work for what ever reason. (If the department store is owned by Bloomingdale's they may have been in violation of corporate policy. <<LINK2 (http://www.bloomingdalesjobs.com/common/about/EEO_Policy_6-08.pdf)>>
All for what.
You are right. End of story, IMOH
Every single major retail store that I have ever worked at had codified the shopping experience from the music played, the dress code and grooming standards of the people on the floor right down to the type and amount of lighting. It is not a good idea to let just anyone decide how your company is going to look to the public.
Yep - life in corporate America for those who have any experience with it at all.
Richard
Entire post.DJ--
For me, the important piece of information is that she was in a large department store.
If she had gone into a 'mom and pop,' a 'boutique,' or a shop like yours and complained about the play list, I think she'd be worthy of a withering eye roll or two.
FWIW, the only time I've gotten bent out of shape over the music in a store is when I realized the local chain of grocery stores has a tune by one of my favorite bands on its Muzak play list. Mental gymnastics worthy of the Olympics followed.:p
For me, the important piece of information is that she was in a large department store.
I don't know about that, Sig. In a reverse situation, regarding a marketing ad not music, do you remember this thread from last Thanksgiving?
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26258&highlight=buy+thanksgiving
Best Buy ran an ad during our Thanksgiving week that in many markets made no mention of "Happy Thanksgiving" but instead only had "Happy Eid al-Adha," an important Muslim religious holiday. Best Buy is obviously a large chain. So was that irresponsible of them to do that?
Many of us thought so.... but Best Buy apparently replied to their email complaints with this:
"Best Buy’s customers and employees around the world represent a variety of faiths and denominations. We respect that diversity and choose to greet our customers and employees in ways that reflect their traditions. We do use the word 'holiday' in some of our advertising because it is meant to be inclusive to everyone. However, just as we have in the past, we will also reference specific holidays such as Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa in our weekly ads, store signage and other advertising vehicles."
I think there are many large chains that do whatever the hell they want to. And as TR and others said in the above thread, we can help the Best Buys of the world celebrate bankruptcy by not shopping there anymore. Or in this case, in the store with the Christian music, we can shop there MORE. Too bad she doesn't tell us which store it is.
By the way, she posted her 'grievance' on her blog March 9. Since then some pretty funny comments have been left for her. But I have a twisted sense of humor.
Sig, YMMV? ;)
o5
armymom1228
03-13-2010, 01:19
About the music, most stores use music as a marketing tool. You like the music, the longer you stay. The longer you stay the more you are apt to spend money.
Don't like the ambiance and the music, you walk away and take your money with you.
It behooves, however, to know your customer base and attempt to cater to them. They are, in fact, your livelihood. Without customers there is no business.
Not to say one will always get that one snarky customer, one in every pack. :rolleyes:
YMMV
AM
incarcerated
03-13-2010, 01:57
Methinks that Ruth Nasrullah needs a nice tall glass of shut the fuck up.
Many Californians agree.
Methinks that Ruth Nasrullah needs a nice tall glass of shut the fuck up.
I'd probably feel alien too if I lived in the Middle East, so guess what? I don't fucking live there. And I don't want to.
I think it's generally socially responsible to respect the general mores of the country in which you reside. Despite our shortcomings, America is a great place to live. You don't like our culture? Then you don't have to live here.
I get so tired of the "my god can do more one handed pull-ups than your god." I'd think that by now, people would notice the similarities between all religions and perhaps recognize that maybe the reason for division rests in the fact that we humans have a tendency to fuck things up in the interpretation. "God" never shows up and speaks to everybody, he always seems to just speak to a couple of guys. And who's to say that God even really spoke to those guys? Because they said "God told me so, to my face?" Maybe some of those guys are fucking liars, and maybe they have their own personal, selfish agenda? Know what I'm sayin'?:cool:
Like the guys are saying "terrific idea",only problem is that whoever does write it is signing his death warrant !!!!!...... :( Do you honestly think THEY won't put him on their list ?
Big Teddy :munchinBrother,
Every last one of them "radical" MFers can bring-it-on!
Just be lucky I don't have a HBO special...some of stuff I'd say, would NOT make it on regular TV.:D
Stay safe.
Team Sergeant
04-05-2010, 09:20
You are free to join just like anyone else, no special privileges will be granted.
From: ruth nasrullah
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:12 AM
To: deaddrop@professionalsoldiers.com
Subject: my blog
Hello - my name is Ruth Nasrullah. I was informed by my Google alert that your site has been discussing my blog post on the Houston Chronicle, "Jesus at the Mall." I was wondering if you could give me temporary privileges so I can post a response to some of the comments. Thanks for your help.
craigepo
04-05-2010, 10:05
Hmm. Gutsy.
Team Sergeant
04-05-2010, 10:13
Hmm. Gutsy.
Yeah, so is jumping into the middle of the street with RPG in hand preparing to fire on an armored column of commonly known as "Rolling Thunder".
We all know what happened to "that guy".:munchin
Depends on what her views of being offended are.
Do some have special rights when it comes to being offended?
Does her "offended" have higher status than my "offended"?
Is having to listen to religious music in a public - non-government - place "offensive"?
Were some of the posts on this thread "offensive" to her. Is having to read her posts "offensive" to some?
Frankly, I find the whole idea of people walking around looking to be offended "offensive".
Well, now, the people over by the Church do get offended come Sunday morning when they crank up thier religious PA system for all the subdivision to hear. And they do complain. Wonder if she would be "offended" if a Mosque did the same thing and people complained? Would she say they were culturally insensitive?
Speaking of offended...guess it's all in the verbiage and knowing how to play the system...:p
I just applied for a building permit for a new house. It was going to be 100 ft tall and 400 ft wide with 9 turrets at various heights and windows all over the place and a loud outside entertainment sound system. It would have parking for 200 cars and I was going to paint it snot green with poofter pink trim.
The City council told me to f#$% off.
So I sent in the application again, but this time I called it a Mosque.
Work starts on Monday...** :rolleyes:
But that's MOO...and so it goes...;)
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
** Posted in honor of Mark Twain, HL Mencken, Will Rogers, James Thurber, Art Buchwald, Lewis Grizzard, etc.
I just applied for a building permit for a new house. It was going to be 100 ft tall and 400 ft wide with 9 turrets at various heights and windows all over the place and a loud outside entertainment sound system. It would have parking for 200 cars and I was going to paint it snot green with poofter pink trim.
The City council told me to f#$% off.
So I sent in the application again, but this time I called it a Mosque.
Work starts on Monday...**
I'm hoping maybe those goat tacos are served in the parking lot and the minarets are blasting Mel Torme or Bad Company?:)
Surgicalcric
04-05-2010, 12:51
I just applied for a building permit for a new house. It was going to be 100 ft tall and 400 ft wide with 9 turrets at various heights and windows all over the place and a loud outside entertainment sound system. It would have parking for 200 cars and I was going to paint it snot green with poofter pink trim.
The City council told me to f#$% off.
So I sent in the application again, but this time I called it a Mosque.
Work starts on Monday... :rolleyes:
I tried the same thing but called it a Synagogue and they still told me to F*&# Off. Who would have guessed...
Since then I have decided I would rather not build.
Crip
Bill Harsey
04-05-2010, 20:20
You guys have stores that play music?
wow.
frostfire
04-05-2010, 22:37
MOO, Ms. Nasrullah is not the problem in the situation she described but rather the members of the staff at a "large department" store (that may be owned by a corporation) who decided to impose their vision of the shopping experience on customers.
Sigaba, I see your point. I'd presume that you meant to say "Ms. Nasrullah is not the ONLY problem in the situation she described." The colourful discussion over the offended shopper is not without merit. S.O.S. Tolerance for the intolerant.
I'll be on a lookout for that book, Reaper Sir.
Hello - my name is Ruth Nasrullah. I was informed by my Google alert that your site has been discussing my blog post on the Houston Chronicle, "Jesus at the Mall." I was wondering if you could give me temporary privileges so I can post a response to some of the comments. Thanks for your help.
So how many times a day does Ms. Nasrullah receive Google alerts about herself? IS she that vain or does she actually go looking for a fight? I would say a combination of both.
The Reaper
04-06-2010, 07:58
That's it.
I am building a 100 foot tall prayer tower in my backyard with 48 ghetto-thumping speakers and blaring out my own call to prayer SIX times per day, since apparently, that is acceptable for certain religions. Tolerance and diversity are enforcable by the State, right?
Or are some animals really more equal than others?:rolleyes:
As long as you can keep it inside your store, home, or car, I could care less what you play. I can choose to shop and spend my money elsewhere if I don't like it. Government offices, outside of chapels, should be an exception.
TR
armymom1228
04-06-2010, 09:25
You are free to join just like anyone else, no special privileges will be granted.
From: ruth nasrullah
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:12 AM
To: deaddrop@professionalsoldiers.com
Subject: my blog
Hello - my name is Ruth Nasrullah. I was informed by my Google alert that your site has been discussing my blog post on the Houston Chronicle, "Jesus at the Mall." I was wondering if you could give me temporary privileges so I can post a response to some of the comments. Thanks for your help.
Oh please yes, join... I am sure there are those here that can give her a unique perspective on some issues. She might consider a flame retardent burqa. :lifter
Soooo, I visited her blog, looked up the comments to "Jesus at the mall"... she didn't get a whole lot of sympathy.
blog comments here. (http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpath/2010/03/jesus_at_the_mall.html#comments)
I particularily liked these:
Ruth, you did not do the right thing. Christians are over in the middle east dying for muslims and you sit here on a pedestal and complain about music? You really need to take closer look at your own imperfections.
Posted by: Joe P at March 9, 2010 07:13 PM
If you are a good Muslim woman you should have a husband. And he should beat you for going to the mall without him.
Also, your complaint shows a serious lack of tolerance for something outside your beliefs. I think you should reconsider some of your life choices.
I wish I were the manager. I would have told you and the rag on your head that you call a hajib to leave the store. (Why do you muslim women cover your fat bodies up anyway... while all your husbands wear shorts and sandles exposing their hairy legs and toes?) As much as you and others hate to admit it, this is a Christian country.
Why not write an article about the hundreds of terrorists acts that Muslims have committed over the last hundred years and the outrage that you feel about it? I know why...because you and muslims don't feel any outrage. I fought in two wars against people like you to defend my country from people like you. I am insulted that you would dare to question Christianity in this country. This is my country...love it or leave it!
I lived for many years in Saudi Arabia where I was forced to wear the hijab, could not drive, could not associate with many of the men around me, was forced out of stores at each prayer interval, was harassed by the religious police at every turn, could only eat in specific parts of some restaurants, and in general was subject to incredibly restrictive laws on my freedom. If you want to be "free" of Christian presence, I suggest that you go there and see how free you feel. Your religious and cultural bias is allowed here, even fostered by some, but would get you arrested, perhaps flogged and in extreme cases, beheaded there. Quit your complaining and be thankful for what you have.
Posted by: Phyllis at March 10, 2010 07:47 AM
Having lived and traveled other places, seen truths for my own eyes. I am deeply grateful for being American. I am truly blessed to live in a place that allows for freedom of speech, religion and lifestyle. I am deeply grateful that there are those who would put thier life on the line so that I can have those freedoms. Ms Nasrullah would do well to remember that aspect of her freedom. A freedom she would not have in a country where Islam and Sharia Law are predominant.
AM <----that means, Ms Nasrullah, I am an Army Mom, and MY son agreed to defend the Constitution that gives you that freedom to whine all you want.
It means that I support my son and all those who keep me and you free.. remember that next time you don't like something. I live everyday of my life, like all the other Army moms with the full knowledge that the next knock on my front door could be two guys in green uniforms telling me my son died defending your right to bitch whine and moan about music you don't like. He also keeps me and the wind I sail in free! He is MY hero... who is yours?
armymom1228
04-06-2010, 09:32
She has the right to her religion
She has the right to her opinion
She has the right to voice her opinion
She has the right to voice her opinion about her religion
The store manager had a right to play or not play the music...
What a great country, huh???
You betcha it is a great country. Many men and women died to keep it that way. I might dislike her attitude, but it is her right and it is my right to not read her blog.. my personal favorite blog is Dave Barry. I think laughter is far more imporant than hate rants and getting my knickers in a twist over someone's choice of music.
Speaking of offense, I was personally offended this morning when I got up and realized that my dishes had not magically washed themselves in the night. I extolled them to better themselves by becoming self cleaning.:D
AM
"If you are a good Muslim woman you should have a husband. And he should beat you for going to the mall without him."
I had to replace my keyboard by taking my co-worker's. And wipe down my computer screen. That comment is classic!
I live in Texas - go to any mall around here and announce "Is Jesus here?" over the PA system and you'd get a hundred guys either raising their hands or running for the exits. :rolleyes:
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
ZonieDiver
04-06-2010, 10:24
I live in Texas - go to any mall around here and announce "Is Jesus here?" over the PA system and you'd get a hundred guys either raising their hands or running for the exits. :rolleyes:
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
If Jesus was Jewish, how come he had a Mexican name?
greenberetTFS
04-06-2010, 10:30
If Jesus was Jewish, how come he had a Mexican name?
Funny,very funny Zonie.............:rolleyes::eek:;)
Big Teddy :munchin
OK, funny guys.
Just wait until some priest checks out this thread.
When he issues that fatwa for your head we'll see if you're still laughing.
I took a few minutes rereading Ms. Nasrullah's blog, and went through her site. IMHO, she is self absorbed, insecure, and whiny, definitely not someone I'd want to spend much time around, but labelling her as some sort of radical anti-American Islamist etc. seems excessive. My read of her "Jesus at the Mall" blog was that if anything she is more guilty of expressing a regional northeast elitism than, ( those backwards southerners) than religious fervor, she might have been better served to say religious music in general bothered her than specifying Christian music, her hijab statement is the most ludicrous, is she so self absorbed that she thought some clerk at the store deliberately put on Christian tunes in hopes of offending someone in a hijab, I would guess the vast majority of Americans couldn't differentiate or care between a hijab, a sari, or a sarong. She has a great life if this is the kind of thing that offends her.
In fairness however before burning her in effigy as a radical, take a look at some of her other blogs below , the first subsequently admitting she was wrong in her " Jesus at the Mall", and the second an earlier blog condemning the actions of Hasan at Ft. Hood.
It's called a blog
My last post was a thoughtful and honest piece in which I acknowledged that I might have been wrong in my actions, and I asked readers for their thoughts. I heard from readers whom I know and others whom I don't, and the strong consensus of the rational and courteous readers was that I was wrong, and although I do still have a lingering distaste for hearing religious music in the setting I described, I agree. Would I complain if I heard it again? Probably not, after mulling over what my readers said.
Unfortunately, most commenters did not read thoughtfully. What many of them saw when they looked at the words I had written was this narrative:
Damn Muslims - they're a threat to our country yet they're always making demands as though they deserve more than the rest of us...
And...that...is...not...what...I...said.
The misunderstanding grew worse when the Chronicle put it on the home page with a headline calling it a "rant."
I did not rant. I did not whine. I related something I did, expressed my thoughts about it, and invited discussion.
It's called a blog.
Virtually all us Houstonbelief bloggers have complained at one time or another of the rudeness and hatefulness many readers display, and increasingly so. We have also shared discussions regarding the value and rightness of censoring.
My last post was a watershed. I want to make sure The Straight Path remains a blog, not a forum for personal attacks or hateful comments. That means one of two things: quit blogging or censor with a heavy hand.
Readers, please be nice.
Posted by Ruth Nasrullah at March 12, 2010 03:58 PM
November 06, 2009
Yes, I do condemn it
It should go without saying for those who know me, but let me state clearly that I condemn yesterday's shootings at Fort Hood, as I condemn all killings of innocents whether by Muslims or non-Muslims. I know with certainty that attacks such as yesterday's are neither required nor condoned by Islam, but in fact are prohibited.
I urge readers, as I constantly do, not to blame all Muslims, or associate all Muslims, with the violent acts of a few.
Public statements by Muslims organizations are being issued, including these:
From the Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation - copy of the text of a letter to Gen. Cone:
5 November 2009
Lt. General Robert W. Cone
Commandant, Ft. Hood Military Base
Ft. Hood, Texas
Dear General Cone:
I am writing on behalf of the Muslim American Society (MAS), and our thousands of members throughout the United States, to express both our shock and our deep sadness in the aftermath of the shooting at Fort Hood that killed eleven individuals and left many more wounded. This unprovoked and unconscionable act of violence against American military personnel and civilians alike is utterly reprehensible, and against every tenet of faith and morality..
We offer our prayers and condolences to you, to the Fort Hood community, and especially to the families of loved ones of those who were killed and injured in this attack. May God Almighty comfort all of you in this time of great loss and sorrow.
Sincerely yours,
Imam Mahdi Bray
Executive Director
MAS Freedom (Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation)
1325G Street NW, Suite 500
WashingtonDC 20005
Phone:(202) 552-7414
Toll Free: 1-(888)-627-8471
Fax:(703) 642-6191
So respectfully, IMHO she is an affirmation seeking whiny liberal who needs a tougher skin, but as an American she is entitled to her views and dissent, and harmless.
http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpath/2009/11/yes_i_do_condemn_it.html
Sigaba, I see your point. I'd presume that you meant to say "Ms. Nasrullah is not the ONLY problem in the situation she described."Frostfire--
I said precisely what I meant to say.
If Jesus was Jewish, how come he had a Mexican name?
Guess the copyright laws back then weren't as strict. :p
By my way of thinking, hang around a mall long enough and you're likely to see about anything...and if somebody named Jesus is wearing sandals and walking across one of the fountains, he must be Jewish - but if somebody named Jesus is carrying his sandals in his hands and wading across one of the fountains, he isn't...but I'm just sayin'... :rolleyes:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Agree.
What else bothers me is...she asked for readers' opinions, and she got them -- in spades -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. She did something she knew would be unpopular, blogged about it ,and then asked for opinions. If she was fine with what she did, why ask for others' opinions?I think you misread her initial post in which she expressed an internal conflict over the propriety of her response. She asked:Was I right to be offended? I'm entirely open to discussion because I'm not certain my response was right. I can only say that every time I think about it I just can't help but feel they were wrong to play religious music in a non-religious setting.Her shock and dismay at the "hater" comments and the dissension [strikes] me as completely disingenuous on her part.Agreed.
She should know better than to expect civility in the blogosphere.
Surgicalcric
04-06-2010, 13:03
...I think she knew that her actions were "unpopular" when she did them.
She is an attention whore...nothing more, nothing less...
armymom1228
04-06-2010, 13:33
OK, funny guys.
Just wait until some priest checks out this thread.
When he issues that fatwa for your head we'll see if you're still laughing.
He will have to stand in line behind my Ex, who thinks he has first call on my demise... :lifter
What's nice about this country is if you don't like what is happening at a store while you are shopping you are more than welcome to voice your displeasure with the management.
The key question is to be asked of yourself - "Why am I upset?"
So was she upset because it was Christian music or just because it was religious music. Does she want to be "Christian Free" or "Religion Free"?
If the clerk would have been from Africa playing a tape of local dialect Christian music would she have asked what it was to be sure it wasn't bad music? Would she have cared?
If the clerk had been from a Muslim country and the tape was in Arabic but with a religious slant would she have demanded that it be shut off or would she have said "My, what nice music. So nice to hear it."?
What's nice about this country is if you don't like what is happening at a store while you are shopping you are more than welcome to voice your displeasure with the management.
The key question is to be asked of yourself - "Why am I upset?"
So was she upset because it was Christian music or just because it was religious music. Does she want to be "Christian Free" or "Religion Free"?
If the clerk would have been from Africa playing a tape of local dialect Christian music would she have asked what it was to be sure it wasn't bad music? Would she have cared?
If the clerk had been from a Muslim country and the tape was in Arabic but with a religious slant would she have demanded that it be shut off or would she have said "My, what nice music. So nice to hear it."?
Pete Sir,
Spot on, all points!
Have read her "blog," and the comments, (some downright hilarious!)
IMVHO, this woman feeds off of her own bullsh*t, and is as we speak dancing around her room in a bikini, to ACDC's "Hells Bells", laughing her ass off at all the attention.:rolleyes:
Hope she comes over here and chats with QP's...
Holly:munchin
What's nice about this country is if you don't like what is happening at a store while you are shopping you are more than welcome to voice your displeasure with the management.
The key question is to be asked of yourself - "Why am I upset?"
So was she upset because it was Christian music or just because it was religious music. Does she want to be "Christian Free" or "Religion Free"?
If the clerk would have been from Africa playing a tape of local dialect Christian music would she have asked what it was to be sure it wasn't bad music? Would she have cared?
If the clerk had been from a Muslim country and the tape was in Arabic but with a religious slant would she have demanded that it be shut off or would she have said "My, what nice music. So nice to hear it."?IMO, one point that has been overlooked is her initial comment. She said:I hate clothes shopping, so I admit I was already a little irritated yesterday when I stood looking at jeans in a large department store and realized that I was no longer hearing the overhead muzak but rather Christian songs playing rather loudly from a radio at my feet.It is my understanding that buying clothes--but especially jeans--can activate a lot of insecurities in women who just so happen not to be built like models. I wonder if the same mindset that convinced the store staff that it was all right to disregard company policy also impacted their ability to address a potential customer's ambivalence towards clothes in general and jeans in particular?
In regards to some of the responses to Ms. Nasrullah blog entry, I respectfully disagree as to their value. IMO, Ms. Nasrullah asked people for help. If such requests are increasingly regarded as nothing more than an open invitation to anonymous criticism, snark, disrespect, and dog piling, we as a nation are in a lot of trouble.
(FWIW, the other side of the coin can be experienced here in Southern California. For example, there's a bookstore down the street from me that does not discourage its staff from stating its beliefs. So one of its clerks is known to wear a tee shirt featuring Marx, Lenin, and Mao. The history section has placards pithy that say "Manly men" and "Better dead than red?" on the shelves featuring books on the military history and the Cold War, respectively.)
dr. mabuse
04-06-2010, 14:50
Sigaba, wish I knew where that bookstore is. I could show up with my "Che is dead, get over it" T-shirt just for grins.:D
IMHO, she is self absorbed, insecure, and whiny, definitely not someone I'd want to spend much time around...
So, is it so wrong of me to still want her to come here so I can see just how bad her situational awareness is? :munchin:munchin
IMVHO, this woman feeds off of her own bullsh*t, and is as we speak dancing around her room in a bikini, to ACDC's "Hells Bells", laughing her ass off at all the attention.:rolleyes:
Holly, I think this was probably the funniest thing you've ever posted. :cool:
o5
If you were to walk into my shop and you asked me to turn off Zu or John Zorn or Slayer (all of which are probably as offensive as anything you're likely to hear), I'd probably tell you no.
I was working at a software company when one of the young developers replaced our easy listening music on the phone system with one of Slayer's cd's. Apparently the drummer was on the young man's soccer team. Regardless, the Slayer music went over like a turd in a punchbowl. Must be an acquired taste. :D
IMO, one point that has been overlooked is her initial comment. She said:It is my understanding that buying clothes--but especially jeans--can activate a lot of insecurities in women who just so happen not to be built like models.
Are you kidding? You aren't huh. Its called manipulation of some who want to cow tow to her "rights" as a woman.
Bullshit, IMVHO.
Holly
What say we give her a chance to browse around a bit to get a feel for the atmosphere of the forum and then allow her to respond to a few of the issues presented before we light the pyre and set her adrift.
Personally, I'm looking forward to the dialogue, hoping it will be relatively 'expletive' free and worthwhile. ;) ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Green Light
04-06-2010, 16:45
I'm game - always ready to learn something new. :lifter
Are you kidding? You aren't huh. Its called manipulation of some who want to cow tow to her "rights" as a woman.
Bullshit, IMVHO.
Nope, I'm not kidding.
I've had the (good/mis)fortune of listening to women ranging from size zero to six talk about their poor luck finding jeans that did not make them look 'fat.' (I deny ever holding anyone else's purse. Wait...that doesn't sound right. Just to be clear--I carry a SATCHEL, not a murse. There, I feel better.)
My housemate is built like Beyoncé Knowles. She is yet to believe me when I say she looks good in her blue jeans.
A small point. The word is kowtow, not cow tow.
As for Ms. Nasrullah alleged "manipulation," I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Peregrino
04-06-2010, 18:20
A small point. The word is kowtow, not cow tow.
Depends on the point being made - after all the thread was drifting towards an examination of the psychology supporting "cow couture". :p (Though I do suspect you're absolutely correct in your assessment. ;))
Nope, I'm not kidding.
I've had the (good/mis)fortune of listening to women ranging from size zero to six talk about their poor luck finding jeans that did not make them look 'fat.' (I deny ever holding anyone else's purse. Wait...that doesn't sound right. Just to be clear--I carry a SATCHEL, not a murse. There, I feel better.)
My housemate is built like Beyoncé Knowles. She is yet to believe me when I say she looks good in her blue jeans.
A small point. The word is kowtow, not cow tow.
As for Ms. Nasrullah alleged "manipulation," I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Thank You. This explains your point of view perfectly, Sig.
Good Luck with that POV.
Holly
Team Sergeant
04-06-2010, 21:45
IMO, one point that has been overlooked is her initial comment. She said:It is my understanding that buying clothes--but especially jeans--can activate a lot of insecurities in women who just so happen not to be built like models. I wonder if the same mindset that convinced the store staff that it was all right to disregard company policy also impacted their ability to address a potential customer's ambivalence towards clothes in general and jeans in particular?
In regards to some of the responses to Ms. Nasrullah blog entry, I respectfully disagree as to their value. IMO, Ms. Nasrullah asked people for help. If such requests are increasingly regarded as nothing more than an open invitation to anonymous criticism, snark, disrespect, and dog piling, we as a nation are in a lot of trouble.
(FWIW, the other side of the coin can be experienced here in Southern California. For example, there's a bookstore down the street from me that does not discourage its staff from stating its beliefs. So one of its clerks is known to wear a tee shirt featuring Marx, Lenin, and Mao. The history section has placards pithy that say "Manly men" and "Better dead than red?" on the shelves featuring books on the military history and the Cold War, respectively.)
Modern day America, blame everything else but yourself.
I get "irritated" driving in heavy traffic, I don't whine and complain nor do I blame everyone else, and, if I did, you would not know what religion I was just because I was whining.
Tell me Sigaba, what pray tell does religion have to do with the whining? Last I looked we are still free to move about this country and shop any damn place we desire, I didn't realize she was being forced to shop at this store.
I'm done with idiots being offended by "my" culture.
TS
Last hard class
04-07-2010, 01:48
"If you are a good Muslim woman you should have a husband. And he should beat you for going to the mall without him."
I had to replace my keyboard by taking my co-worker's. And wipe down my computer screen. That comment is classic!
I've been to two goat f@#%ings and three county fairs and I have never seen anything like that. I had tears in my eyes from laughing so much. Maybe that's why people call me Mr. Sensitive. Maybe not.
I am clearly not as PC as the majority on this board. Wishing to remain a member, I will stay clear of the religious and political maelstrom that this thread so teasingly beckons.
In fact we are not the eastern block where you will be shot attempting to leave the country.
What's the eastern block...and you will? :confused:
Have you looked at a calendar or read any newspapers or watched any news programs for the last twenty years? Do you realize this is 2010? ;)
Richard
What's the eastern block...and you will?
Have you looked at a calendar or read any newspapers or watched any news programs for the last twenty years? Do you realize this is 2010?
FWIW, at times I too expect the Soviets to parade tanks through Red Square again proclaiming " we were just kidding" , but then I remember it's an old Simpsons episode...
ZonieDiver
04-07-2010, 09:38
A small point. The word is kowtow, not cow tow.
For the record, this is what "cow tow" looks like...
...and this is a kowtow...
Modern day America, blame everything else but yourself. With respect, I do not agree that this habit is a recent development.
Tell me Sigaba, what pray tell does religion have to do with the whining? Last I looked we are still free to move about this country and shop any damn place we desire, I didn't realize she was being forced to shop at this store.IMO, Ms. Nasrullah is not whining. At least not yet.
MOO, she's asking age old questions that center around fitting one's personal and religious identity into a pluralistic society that has a dynamic multifaceted culture.
Surgicalcric
04-07-2010, 10:35
...and this is a kowtow...
Which also looks a lot like... ;)
Surgicalcric
04-07-2010, 10:52
With respect, I do not agree that this habit is a recent development.
No, the habit itself is not be a recent development. People have whined and complained for no good reason since the beginning of time. It is however more widely accepted today.
IMO, Ms. Nasrullah is not whining. At least not yet.
She is bitching to draw attention, which is the same thing.
MOO, she's asking age old questions that center around fitting one's personal and religious identity into a pluralistic society that has a dynamic multifaceted culture.
I wonder if she would have bitched about it if it were Muslim music playing at her feet. I think not...
If she didnt like the music -and it added to the stress of her buying jeans (spare me)- she could have easily taken her business elsewhere.
Crip
The key question is to be asked of yourself - "Why am I upset?"
Respectfully, IMHO Pete nailed the key question. Is the issue Ms. Nasrullah's question or her unpopular view?
For example if instead her name was Jane Smith, she looked like Orion5's avatar ( Raquel Welch with a sixgun is something else), and she was shopping at the mall complaining about Islamic religious music being played at Macy's, would folks have an equally powerful reaction, but of support? Would we be praising her courage for taking a stand against yet another instance of an Islamic affront, or would we still see her as just another insecure liberal twit who should shop elsewhere?
........ and she was shopping at the mall complaining about Islamic religious music being played at Macy's, would folks have an equally powerful reaction, but of support? .......
I don't see that too many people would get upset. What is Islamic religious music? Would you know it if you heard it? Would most Americans? Do most Americans even know that Sikhs aren't Muslims? Just what is that song with the twangy background music?
Now there have been people here raggin' on chain stores when they dump religious holidays for seasonal holidays but seem to find their way into promoting Islamic Holidays as cultural.
Once again - is the point of view against Christianity or all Religions?
Only she can answer that. Would she have got all fired up if the store's canned music cut out and an Imam's call to prayer started up? Would you smile and like the Christian music but flip out over the call to prayer?
For those of you familiar with the John Boy and Billy radio show, Robert D. Raeford frequently states "we have become the United States of the Offended". It is simply time for people to mind their own business, get over themselves and get a life. As the other law enforcement officers on this site know all too well, many of the disturbance calls, assault calls, domestic calls , etc. that we respond to, are over stupid, childish crap like this woman, or anyone else who complains about something they can simply choose to avoid, causes. Frequently, we are simply baby sitters of adult aged children. People will complain on other people, businesses or anything else just to get attention or just because they can. Like children, the more attention you give them, the more they will act out.
For those of you familiar with the John Boy and Billy radio show, Robert D. Raeford frequently states "we have become the United States of the Offended". It is simply time for people to mind their own business, get over themselves and get a life. As the other law enforcement officers on this site know all too well, many of the disturbance calls, assault calls, domestic calls , etc. that we respond to, are over stupid, childish crap like this woman, or anyone else who complains about something they can simply choose to avoid, causes. Frequently, we are simply baby sitters of adult aged children. People will complain on other people, businesses or anything else just to get attention or just because they can. Like children, the more attention you give them, the more they will act out.
Very well said, Sir!!!!!!!!:lifter
Holly:munchin
For example if instead ... she looked like Orion5's avatar.It all comes back to Orion5's avatar.:p
Like it or not, this nation is changing demographically, politically, socially, and culturally. In our lifetimes, groups that have lived on the margins will have the political and economic means to insist on being heard.
The choices we make today will help to determine the tone and the outcome of those conversations. If today we tell people like Ms. Nasrullah to STFU, how surprised should be if we receive the same types of responses down the line when we voice our own concerns?
ruth nasrullah
04-09-2010, 22:15
Hello all. It took me a few days to get on here and the thread has already fizzled somewhat, but I do have some responses to your discussion of my Houston Chronicle post "Jesus at the mall." Having come in to the discussion late, I'm sure I can't address most of the individual comments, but I will make a general comment or two in a bit, and feel free to ask any direct questions of me.
craigepo
04-09-2010, 23:54
Welcome. I have a question:
A few years ago, I was traveling in Kosovo. While in a Muslim town, I noticed that a Muslim "call to prayer" was playing, very loudly, from a nearby mosque. The music was so loud that it was audible not only in the town, but quite some distance outside the city limits.
Should I have shown the same righteous indignation that you evidenced by your reaction to the Christian song playing in the Houston store? Would such a complaint, made by a Christian in a Muslim country, be given the same opportunity in the "marketplace of ideas" that your article/complaint has received in your hometown newspaper?
What specific writing or teaching of Christ do you find so objectionable that you become appalled at merely hearing Christian music?
Do you believe that the "verse of the sword" found in the Koran should be given a literal or figurative meaning?
I have another:
Would you give us here your background in how you came to be a Muslim and:
2. Where/when did you learn Arabic?
3. Why you didn't move to a Muslim country to be around your adopted fellows?
4. What is your explanation for reconciling following Islam as a peaceful tolerant religion with the precept that you cannot withstand encountering other religions in this country without considerable angst?
ETA: No sarcasm intended. Along with many others here I appreciate Arabia and its cultures. Are you so easily offended?
Ms Nasrullah,
Welcome to PS.Com. Based on your blog and the entry which led to the creation of this thread, I'd like to ask a few questions:
Q1: As an SF soldier who has lived among various communities throughout the world, a general rule of thumb we tended to abide by was the ages old "When in Rome..." This philosophy tended to cause issues on occasion - not with the native populations, but with the more conventional side of the military who accused us of 'going native'.
I still tend to use the same general philosophy (within reason) whenever traveling abroad and have had few issues (minor, at worst) in any country I've ever visited.
Have you ever considered using or have used such a philosophy? And if not - why not?
Q2: I've used taxis in various parts of the world because it usually beats walking. In every country I've been in and used a cab, they almost always are playing some form of local music on their radios. Here in America, I have also been in a number of cabs driven by naturalized citizens who continue to play the music of their native lands - some of it quite discordant to my ears. When asked to turn it down, they have - but unless it was overtly scatalogical or profane, I have never asked them to turn it off even if it was of a religious nature, although I imagine they would have if I had politely requested they do so.
From your point-of-view, are the tenets of your personal beliefs so rigid towards other cultures that something as mundane as religious music is seemingly so offensive that it is seen as a challenge or a threat to those beliefs? Why?
Q3: In your blog you stated:
"I suspect there was also a latent cultural bias behind my irritation. I don't think this would ever happen in the northeast, the part of the country that I will always think of as home. A Christian radio station playing in a well-known department store - I just can't imagine it happening, or at least not happening without protest. That's the norm I'm familiar with."
Based on that statement, I would have to surmise you have never been to any major retail stores/malls in the Northeast at any time between Thanksgiving and Christmas when nearly all radio stations (and store muzak systems) are playing some form of 'Christian' holiday music (e.g., Silent Night). Or did you just forget?
Curious.
Richard
blue02hd
04-10-2010, 07:16
From her own blog:
"Ruth, you did not do the right thing. Christians are over in the middle east dying for muslims and you sit here on a pedestal and complain about music? You really need to take closer look at your own imperfections."
Doesn't get any simpler than that.
I appreciate that she took the time to register and introduce herself here, but I hope she understands that our beliefs most likely will be more deeply rooted than her own. It's a depth that comes from real sacrifice and the loss of our brothers for others who suffer at the hands of those who would agree with her actions. If music that she does not agree with played in public is enough to offend her, I forecast an uncomfortable experience for her here.
This could be an interesting debate, but I am inclined to believe it will simply be dissappointing.
ruth nasrullah
04-10-2010, 07:25
I get your criticism, but you misunderstand the post, as many of the Chronicle readers did.
I didn't - and don't - think I did the right thing by complaining about the music, and I acknowledged that in the post and in the comments that followed. I wrote a post following the one under discussion called "It's called a blog." In that post I think I clarified my view, and the fact that readers, both strangers and friends, had convinced me I did the wrong thing. Although I still feel uncomfortable with the idea of employees playing religious music in a non-religious retail store, I shouldn't have complained - and I knew it, as I said in the post, as soon as I got finished complaining.
The Straight Path is meant to explore the experience of being an American Muslim, and I generally write from a very personal level. Sometimes I hit and sometimes I miss. Sometimes I strike a chord and sometimes I come off as disingenuous. It's not an editorial column, but a place for people to read my opinion and comment on it. If you read the comments you'll know I publish a lot of garbage.
In the post that followed "Jesus at the mall" I wrote:
"Unfortunately, most commenters did not read thoughtfully. What many of them saw when they looked at the words I had written was this narrative:
Damn Muslims - they're a threat to our country yet they're always making demands as though they deserve more than the rest of us..."
I think the critics here may have done the same, but nonetheless I'll answer the (non-rhetorical) questions in another comment, for the sake of not writing a novel-length comment here.
ruth nasrullah
04-10-2010, 07:36
Welcome. I have a question:
A few years ago, I was traveling in Kosovo. While in a Muslim town, I noticed that a Muslim "call to prayer" was playing, very loudly, from a nearby mosque. The music was so loud that it was audible not only in the town, but quite some distance outside the city limits.
Should I have shown the same righteous indignation that you evidenced by your reaction to the Christian song playing in the Houston store? Would such a complaint, made by a Christian in a Muslim country, be given the same opportunity in the "marketplace of ideas" that your article/complaint has received in your hometown newspaper?
What specific writing or teaching of Christ do you find so objectionable that you become appalled at merely hearing Christian music?
Do you believe that the "verse of the sword" found in the Koran should be given a literal or figurative meaning?
Hopefully my previous comment clarifies my viewpoint - I was not indignant, righteous or otherwise. As for the so-called verse of the sword, I'm not qualified to discuss the Qur'an, but my understanding is that the verse is often quoted by critics of Islam without regard to context, and I have yet to read Islamic scholarship that says it is a call to "slay" non-believers.
ruth nasrullah
04-10-2010, 07:41
I have another:
Would you give us here your background in how you came to be a Muslim, whether/where you learned Arabic, why you didn't move to a Muslim country to be around your fellows, and your explanation for reconciling following Islam (as a peaceful wonderful tolerant etc. religion) with the precept that you cannot withstand encountering other religions in this country without considerable angst.
I embraced Islam in my early 20s (I am 48) after reading an English translation of the Qur'an. I was moved by the concept of tawheed - the absolute oneness of God, without partner - more than anything. I had a long stretch (about 15 years) of not practicing, but returned to being a practicing Muslim several years ago.
I have only recently begun learning Qur'anic Arabic, but don't know more than a few words of common Arabic.
The final question strikes me as sarcastic and as with previous questions hopefully is answered by my previous comment.
ruth nasrullah
04-10-2010, 07:49
Ms Nasrullah,
Welcome to PS.Com. Based on your blog and the entry which led to the creation of this thread, I'd like to ask a few questions:
Q1: As an SF soldier who has lived among various communities throughout the world, a general rule of thumb we tended to abide by was the ages old "When in Rome..." This philosophy tended to cause issues on occasion - not with the native populations, but with the more conventional side of the military who accused us of 'going native'.
I still tend to use the same general philosophy (within reason) whenever traveling abroad and have had few issues (minor, at worst) in any country I've ever visited.
Have you ever considered using or have used such a philosophy? And if not - why not?
Q2: I've used taxis in various parts of the world because it usually beats walking. In every country I've been in and used a cab, they almost always are playing some form of local music on their radios. Here in America, I have also been in a number of cabs driven by naturalized citizens who continue to play the music of their native lands - some of it quite discordant to my ears. When asked to turn it down, they have - but unless it was overtly scatalogical or profane, I have never asked them to turn it off even if it was of a religious nature, although I imagine they would have if I had politely requested they do so.
From your point-of-view, are the tenets of your personal beliefs so rigid towards other cultures that something as mundane as religious music is seemingly so offensive that it is seen as a challenge or a threat to those beliefs? Why?
Q3: In your blog you stated:
"I suspect there was also a latent cultural bias behind my irritation. I don't think this would ever happen in the northeast, the part of the country that I will always think of as home. A Christian radio station playing in a well-known department store - I just can't imagine it happening, or at least not happening without protest. That's the norm I'm familiar with."
Based on that statement, I would have to surmise you have never been to any major retail stores/malls in the Northeast at any time between Thanksgiving and Christmas when nearly all radio stations (and store muzak systems) are playing some form of 'Christian' holiday music (e.g., Silent Night). Or did you just forget?
Curious.
Richard
Q1: Again, hopefully clarified by my previous post.
Q2: The same, but with an additional point - in your example of a cab driver, there is a difference if he owns the cab versus working for a cab company. It's not a parallel situation to the one I described, but one important point is that it wasn't the store itself playing the music, but rather staff.
Q3: I'd respond the same - if it's the store/business itself that's playing the music, that's their right and I can choose not to shop there if I don't want to hear it. An additional comment is that, although it didn't come out in the post, it was a little hypocritical for me to wax nostalgic over the northeast as a bastion of secularism, since I always talk about how wonderful it is that in Texas people speak more freely about their religion than they do back home - yet in this case I seemed troubled by the very thing I say I enjoy. Again, I was not right to complain.
ruth nasrullah
04-10-2010, 07:54
From her own blog:
"Ruth, you did not do the right thing. Christians are over in the middle east dying for muslims and you sit here on a pedestal and complain about music? You really need to take closer look at your own imperfections."
Doesn't get any simpler than that.
I appreciate that she took the time to register and introduce herself here, but I hope she understands that our beliefs most likely will be more deeply rooted than her own. It's a depth that comes from real sacrifice and the loss of our brothers for others who suffer at the hands of those who would agree with her actions. If music that she does not agree with played in public is enough to offend her, I forecast an uncomfortable experience for her here.
This could be an interesting debate, but I am inclined to believe it will simply be dissappointing.
I fully understand what you're saying and agree that I am out of my depth here. I felt compelled to respond to the many comments here because my post was misunderstood. Honestly, I'm not looking for debate, and I wasn't taking a stand in the "Jesus at the mall" post. In fact, I asked the readers whether or not I had done the wrong thing. Most of them told me to get over myself.
armymom1228
04-10-2010, 08:51
I fully understand what you're saying and agree that I am out of my depth here. I felt compelled to respond to the many comments here because my post was misunderstood. Honestly, I'm not looking for debate, and I wasn't taking a stand in the "Jesus at the mall" post. In fact, I asked the readers whether or not I had done the wrong thing. Most of them told me to get over myself.
Ma'am, I did not misunderstand your blog post. I read it more than once in its entirety. I read a question his Honor asked that you sidestepped..His Honor being "craigepo". If you indeed, have read the Quran, how simple would it be to reread a part you might not be familiar with and discuss it from 'your' perspective. It is always good to hear from the 'average' muslim on the street rather than some puffed up cleric who thinks thier views are the only views we infidels should hear.
So, you say that you 'returned' to your 'muslim roots' a 'few yrs ago'. What made you 'fall away' so to speak and why did you return to Islam? Tell me, what brought that about? One has to wonder if your reasons were purely religious or otherwise. Considering the current state of our foriegn endeavors in the Middle East. Our = United States.
Tell me WHY you wear the hajib? The Quran merely states that a woman must dress 'modestly'... Nowhere in the Quran does it mention hajib or burka's...nowhere.. So to what purpose other than inciting those around you to comment would you do so.
Why, if you like Islam so much do you not move to an arabic speaking country and live under Sharia around those who believe as you do.. Morrocco is a lovely country, as is Iraq and a few others. I am not saying that sarcastically, I am just wondering why you would object to music in a state that is well known for its religious beliefs and in a country founded, for the most part, by Christians?
Anne/Army Mom
Ruth,
You wrote:
Moreover, the fact that Jesus was being praised while I, wearing hijab, shopped gave me an unwelcome feeling and then ticked me off.
Why would praising Jesus tick you off? Is he not considered a prophet in Islam?
lonewolf726
04-10-2010, 09:39
Ruth,
Since you feel "compelled to respond to the many comments here", would you please answer the specific questions asked, and not just reply with "hopefully answered/clarified by my last post/comment". Being specific may cut down on any confusion.
Also, I don't quite understand why, being a muslim, you say you are not qualified to discuss the qu'ran? I am quite interested in your response to this.
ruth nasrullah
04-10-2010, 10:21
That is a good point about the completness of my answers, lonewolf726. I was rushing through the questions. I have a busy day ahead but will try to make time to sit down and write thorough answers. I apologize for my brusqueness.
Ruth,
Since you feel "compelled to respond to the many comments here", would you please answer the specific questions asked, and not just reply with "hopefully answered/clarified by my last post/comment". Being specific may cut down on any confusion.
Also, I don't quite understand why, being a muslim, you say you are not qualified to discuss the qu'ran? I am quite interested in your response to this.
lonewolf726
04-10-2010, 10:23
Anxiously awaiting your responses...
Ms.Nasrullah,
Welcome, my question is are you an American first? Are you an American of the Islamic faith or do you see yourself as a Muslim who resides in America?
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 08:31
Ruth,
You wrote:
Why would praising Jesus tick you off? Is he not considered a prophet in Islam?
Yes, he is among the greatest of prophets in Islamic belief. You are right to question me about that sentence and I'm not sure I can defend it except by explaining that what I was trying to describe was the dissonance caused by me looking quite non-Christian while gospel music was being played in a place where I didn't expect it.
A year ago I wrote a post (http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpath/2009/04/choosing_to_be_different.html) describing a similar situation. In that post, as in this one, I describe how I had a knee-jerk negative reaction to a "Christ-centered" business being advertised on the bulletin board at the gym I go to, and I describe how after thinking further I realized I was wrong. As I noted in an earlier comment, my blog is meant to be a description of the personal experience of being an American Muslim, and I try to describe it with honesty, warts and all.
Utah Bob
04-11-2010, 09:17
Knee jerk reactions, outside of the doctor's office, are seldom good.
From her own blog:
"Ruth, you did not do the right thing. Christians are over in the middle east dying for muslims and you sit here on a pedestal and complain about music? You really need to take closer look at your own imperfections."
Doesn't get any simpler than that.
I appreciate that she took the time to register and introduce herself here, but I hope she understands that our beliefs most likely will be more deeply rooted than her own. It's a depth that comes from real sacrifice and the loss of our brothers for others who suffer at the hands of those who would agree with her actions. If music that she does not agree with played in public is enough to offend her, I forecast an uncomfortable experience for her here.
This could be an interesting debate, but I am inclined to believe it will simply be dissappointing.
Blue Sir,
Could not agree more with your above statements.
Ms. N,
Have a question...Why do you wear the hajib? Serious question, really, am curious.
We live in the United States of America, free from oppression because brave Men and women stand ready to give up their own lives to protect Our Constitution from those who would seek to pervert it. That Constitution gives you the right to complain, or rejoice as you see fit. It also affords me the right to protest your complaints.
Either way, Ms. N, you and I are not fighting and dying to protect Our Freedom. Until we do, maybe we should simply say, "Thank You," to Those that do, and be on our way!
Holly:munchin
P.S. 8 Posts, and the count stands at 74 "I's" and Me's"
Yes, he is among the greatest of prophets in Islamic belief. You are right to question me about that sentence and I'm not sure I can defend it except by explaining that what I was trying to describe was the dissonance caused by me looking quite non-Christian while gospel music was being played in a place where I didn't expect it.
A year ago I wrote a post (http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpath/2009/04/choosing_to_be_different.html) describing a similar situation. In that post, as in this one, I describe how I had a knee-jerk negative reaction to a "Christ-centered" business being advertised on the bulletin board at the gym I go to, and I describe how after thinking further I realized I was wrong. As I noted in an earlier comment, my blog is meant to be a description of the personal experience of being an American Muslim, and I try to describe it with honesty, warts and all.
Ruth
Welcome to the board. The point that you react 1st and think about it and then you determine you were wrong or it was not right to do seams to be a trend. You might want to quit wearing you beliefs on your sleeve and take a step back and think things through when they bother you and take a few before you react. Just my observation from your post here and your other blog post.
Also it would be nice if you respond to each question that has been addressed here on our board one by one as you said you would in your reply to Lonewolf.
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 11:46
Ruth
Welcome to the board. The point that you react 1st and think about it and then you determine you were wrong or it was not right to do seams to be a trend. You might want to quit wearing you beliefs on your sleeve and take a step back and think things through when they bother you and take a few before you react. Just my observation from your post here and your other blog post.
Also it would be nice if you respond to each question that has been addressed here on our board one by one as you said you would in your reply to Lonewolf.
I'm sorry - I have been working on thoughtful answers while under time constraints. My goal is to have all questions answered by the end of today. Thanks to all for your patience.
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 11:48
P.S. 8 Posts, and the count stands at 74 "I's" and Me's"
Not sure what you mean? Clearly I'm on a learning curve here...do you mean I am referring to myself too much?
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 12:04
Ma'am, I did not misunderstand your blog post. I read it more than once in its entirety. I read a question his Honor asked that you sidestepped..His Honor being "craigepo". If you indeed, have read the Quran, how simple would it be to reread a part you might not be familiar with and discuss it from 'your' perspective. It is always good to hear from the 'average' muslim on the street rather than some puffed up cleric who thinks thier views are the only views we infidels should hear.
Hello Armymom. The "verse of the sword" is one whose translation is sometimes taken by non-Muslims as evidence that Islam calls for Muslims to kill non-Muslims. It is not a call to do so, but refers to historical events at the time of the its revelation; it is also misunderstood when taken by itself without the verses preceding and following. I believe the Qur'an is the word of God and can only be truly understood in Arabic. Thus, I hesitate to discuss the Qur'an in depth because I'm afraid to make an error in representing its meaning. I really am not trying to sidestep it - I don't want to go beyond the bounds of my knowledge.
So, you say that you 'returned' to your 'muslim roots' a 'few yrs ago'. What made you 'fall away' so to speak and why did you return to Islam? Tell me, what brought that about? One has to wonder if your reasons were purely religious or otherwise. Considering the current state of our foriegn endeavors in the Middle East. Our = United States.
I lost my practice probably more because of laziness than anything else. I never lost the basic beliefs. Several years ago I went to interfaith prayer services and simply the act of prayer renewed my spirituality. I was raised without religion and after exploring several faith practices decided in my early 20s that Islam was the right choice. I stopped praying and lost my faith practice. I began praying and regained it. If you suspect that I had other motivation I don't know if there's any way for me to convince you otherwise except to ask you sincerely to believe that I am honest.
Tell me WHY you wear the hajib? The Quran merely states that a woman must dress 'modestly'... Nowhere in the Quran does it mention hajib or burka's...nowhere.. So to what purpose other than inciting those around you to comment would you do so.
In a hadith of the Prophet he outlined that a woman should cover everything but her face and hands. I wear it because I believe it to be a commandment from God to do so. I do know Muslim women who don't wear it, and that's their choice. i only started wearing it full time within the last couple years.
Why, if you like Islam so much do you not move to an arabic speaking country and live under Sharia around those who believe as you do.. Morrocco is a lovely country, as is Iraq and a few others. I am not saying that sarcastically, I am just wondering why you would object to music in a state that is well known for its religious beliefs and in a country founded, for the most part, by Christians?
Anne/Army Mom
I'm American, and in America I'm probably freer to practice my religion than anywhere else. I have no reason to move. As I noted before, I was wrong to complain about the Christian music - and you are right, especially wrong to do so in Texas, where there are stronger and more open religious views than in other areas.
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 12:37
I agree you were in the wrong by complaining. It has noting to do with your religion but be basic idea about not letting others express their beliefs.
I would like you to ask yourself and if you can answer why you have a distaste to hearing music of other religions. I applaured your honesty in admitting you were wrong. I guess the thing to ask now is why you did what you did.
In case you think this is an attack on your beliefs it is not. I was having lunch one day with a friend that happens to be muslim. He grew up Muslim in a Muslim land. We somehow got on the subject of religion. He told me that according to his beliefs all people of the book (Jews Christins and Muslims) know god. Do you believe this?
Do you feel you are biased against Christians? If so why? BTW don't feel this is an attack. I feel this is a question we must all ask ourselfs at times in our lives.
Hello Brush Okie. I don't have a bias against Christians. I don't think there is as much depth to the incident described in my post as you may be finding, so I hesitate to respond in more detail. I'm unsure what level of analysis you and other readers want me to go to.
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 12:47
Ms.Nasrullah,
Welcome, my question is are you an American first? Are you an American of the Islamic faith or do you see yourself as a Muslim who resides in America?
I am an American of the Islamic faith. I abide by the laws of this land. If those laws ever prohibited a fundamental required aspect of my faith (for example, if Islamic prayer became illegal), I would face the choice of violating my faith or moving to a country where I could practice freely. However, I see such a thing as just about impossible, given our constitutionally-protected freedom of religion.
Not sure what you mean? Clearly I'm on a learning curve here...do you mean I am referring to myself too much?
Ms. N,
If you took the time to research PS.com, as any of us guests do, you would understand what I was talking about. PS.com, (to me anyway,) is a website for former, current, and future Special Forces Soldiers to interact with each other. They are gracious enough to allow civilians such as us, to read Their thoughts on this site. It is Them that I spoke of in my post to you Ms. N. They are the ones who fight and die to protect our asses here in the US. It is Them who afford you the right to exist here in the US, muslim or otherwise.
Show some respect, is all I am saying. It is not about "I."
Holly:munchin
armymom1228
04-11-2010, 12:59
I am an American of the Islamic faith. I abide by the laws of this land. If those laws ever prohibited a fundamental required aspect of my faith (for example, if Islamic prayer became illegal), I would face the choice of violating my faith or moving to a country where I could practice freely. However, I see such a thing as just about impossible, given our constitutionally-protected freedom of religion.
Ma'am, why do you feel that, should you move to a country where Islam is the dominant faith, you could not practice your religion freely as you stated to me. In your response.
Can you provide me with the exact part of the Quran that states a woman must cover everything but her hands and fa. In my research I find abundent references and commentaries otherwise. One of the wonderful things about this chatboard, is that we usualy give references thier due. I can provide my sourcse that I read today if you would like.
One is here. (http://www.submission.info/perspectives/women/dresscode.html)
and admittedly is Wiki, but it has a decent article ya and nay.. source for hajib here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab)
My name is Anne, please, feel free to use it. I am simply an Army Mom, with a son serving it is why i have the nick.
anne
Ambush Master
04-11-2010, 13:01
Ms.Nasrullah,
Welcome, my question is are you an American first? Are you an American of the Islamic faith or do you see yourself as a Muslim who resides in America?
Lady, and I use this term VERY loosly, why have you not answered this obviously glaring Question?!?!?!
I personally am sorry that I am as cynical as I am, but I have lost far too many Brothers who gave up their LIVES to free the WOMEN and PEOPLE that are/were held in Opression by the many Muslim Regiemes that are out there!!
If you don't care for the way things are in the USA, Pack It Up, and MOVE THE HELL OUT!!!
Later.
M
ZonieDiver
04-11-2010, 13:02
P.S. 8 Posts, and the count stands at 74 "I's" and Me's"
I think we need to give someone a bit of lattitude when they come here to explain their actions. It is hard to state the reasons why you did something without using a lot of "I" and "me" - at least it is for me.
Count: One "I" and one "me". (Well, two of each, if you count the 'examples'!)
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 13:02
Ms. N,
If you took the time to research PS.com, as any of us guests do, you would understand what I was talking about. PS.com, (to me anyway,) is a website for former, current, and future Special Forces Soldiers to interact with each other. They are gracious enough to allow civilians such as us, to read Their thoughts on this site. It is Them that I spoke of in my post to you Ms. N. They are the ones who fight and die to protect our asses here in the US. It is Them who afford you the right to exist here in the US, muslim or otherwise.
Show some respect, is all I am saying. It is not about "I."
Holly:munchin
Thank you for clarifying and for the advice. I am being asked direct questions about myself, so I'm not sure how I could answer without referring to myself. I understand the purpose of this web site and, as I stated in my introduction, am only here to respond to comments made here about my blog.
When I read comments here that included the suggestion that I need to shut the f___ up and that I am an "attention whore," I hoped that the moderators of this site would be kind enough to give me an opportunity to speak up, and I am grateful that they have. When the conversation about my blog and the questions directed to me are finished I will be gone.
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 13:05
Lady, and I use this term VERY loosly, why have you not answered this obviously glaring Question?!?!?!
I personally am sorry that I am as cynical as I am, but I have lost far too many Brothers who gave up their LIVES to free the WOMEN and PEOPLE that are/were held in Opression by the many Muslim Regiemes that are out there!!
If you don't care for the way things are in the USA, Pack It Up, and MOVE THE HELL OUT!!!
Later.
M
I answered above - our posts must have crossed. Thank you for your passionate response.
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 13:10
Please - I want to give thoughtful answers to all your questions, but I do need more time to do so. If I miss any, please forgive me while I go through them all. Thank you, and again I appreciate the opportunity to be here to respond.
Ambush Master
04-11-2010, 13:12
I answered above - our posts must have crossed. Thank you for your passionate response.
Exactly in which post?!?! Please specify by Post #, this is approx# 155, also please reply to #138
!!!
I understand the purpose of this web site and, as I stated in my introduction, am only here to respond to comments made here about my blog.
You understand Ms N.?????
Okay. Then why have I not seen a "THANK YOU," from you to the Brave Men who inhabit this site???
nevermind...
Holly
blue02hd
04-11-2010, 13:33
As I have yet to see our guest here be rude to anyone in this thread I would hope that we can continue this conversation in a polite and professional manner. Many of you know me, and understand that I can have a short fuze from time to time. When it is time for fireworks I'll provide the popcorn. :munchin
I would hate to see this thread degrade.
If answers are not offered to direct questions then there will be no further reason to read this thread and I am confident the thread will be closed. I think Ruth understands the atmosphere here by now. She may not be used to having to build rapport in a hostile environment but I know that the majority of the followers here are.
Some good and valid points have been made (Thanks SF-TX) and I continue to follow this hoping I can learn more from both sides.
armymom1228
04-11-2010, 14:02
Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah
I understand the purpose of this web site
Are you so sure you do Ma'am? What purpose would this website serve in your
journalistic opinion? I am given to understand, that rather than reading this site you have been reading profiles almost exclusively.
You stated you were here to simply respond to our comments about your blog post on jesus at the mall then leave. I find that sad, you would fly in, comment, then cut and run. It seems to be the MO of the religion of peace.
The level of intelligence and experience in life and otherwise of this board in general is simply astounding. If you get a passionate response. You must try to understand the reason for it.
I can only wonder if you have ever had to watch your friends die at the hands of the Religion of Peace. Or, as I have, cleanse and bandage wounds in your godchild created by an IED placed by the followers of the Religion of Peace. To hold that 22 yr old man's mother in your arms as she wept the day he died and at the cemetary as they buried him. Do you really understand the passion?
You sit there hajib wearing stating that you could not practice your version of Islam in an Islamic country as you would here in the United States. Probably correct. You, by now would by now, have a fatwa issued against you, been beat or stoned for going to the mall without your husband. Your freedom of speech as a woman would have been severly curtailed. Of course you wish to remain here.
Citizenshp has nada to do with it. The timeline with your suddenly 'finding you faith' has not escaped me. As we say here in the Southern part of the US, "I was born at night, but it wasn't last night."
YMMV
Anne
I'm American, and in America I'm probably freer to practice my religion than anywhere else. I have no reason to move. As I noted before, I was wrong to complain about the Christian music - and you are right, especially wrong to do so in Texas, where there are stronger and more open religious views than in other areas.
You are not "probably freer" to practice your religion in America, you ARE most free to practice your religion. As is everyone else.
No where else in the world can a group of folks of any one religious persuasion use the very freedom this country offers to attempt to change the very fabric of our being. You know, that whole b.s. thing known as political correctness. You think we don't know this?
Thus, if you don't like what's on television, change the channel. Same with the radio etc. And yes, that means shopping elsewhere if you are "offended" by what's going on in the store. You're probably old enough to understand the old adage you can't please all of the people all of the time.
For example, I don't like the political views of most of the people in Hollywood. Guess what? I "shop" somewhere else, ie: I don't pay to watch/rent most of their movies.
You mentioned in an earlier response that you once had a similar knee jerk reaction and linked your post. So, why did you do it again?
Do you think we should be more ahh...respectful of the feelings of a Muslim than a Christian?
Bill Harsey
04-11-2010, 14:28
As I have yet to see our guest here be rude to anyone in this thread I would hope that we can continue this conversation in a polite and professional manner. Many of you know me, and understand that I can have a short fuze from time to time. When it is time for fireworks I'll provide the popcorn. :munchin
I would hate to see this thread degrade.
If answers are not offered to direct questions then there will be no further reason to read this thread and I am confident the thread will be closed. I think Ruth understands the atmosphere here by now. She may not be used to having to build rapport in a hostile environment but I know that the majority of the followers here are.
Some good and valid points have been made (Thanks SF-TX) and I continue to follow this hoping I can learn more from both sides.
I agree with the above.
Ruth,
Welcome aboard.
This thread is not a race and I hope you get the chance to take your time and read in many other areas here.
Don't be afraid to ask questions if you want.
As you may notice few here are afraid to ask questions of you.
I am an American of the Islamic faith. I abide by the laws of this land. If those laws ever prohibited a fundamental required aspect of my faith (for example, if Islamic prayer became illegal), I would face the choice of violating my faith or moving to a country where I could practice freely. However, I see such a thing as just about impossible, given our constitutionally-protected freedom of religion.
Ms. Nasrullah, then as an American, you know this great country is a melting pot. America is not a white nation or a Christian one, but a blend of cultures and faiths. The one thing all of these immigrants had in common was a willingness to assimilate into US society, however it seems this is a challenge for Islamic communities in Western nations, do you agree, and if so why do you think this is the case?
Also , as an American Muslim and a woman, enjoying the freedoms and rights you mentioned, how do interpret the treatment of women under the Taliban regime?
I imagine being an American Muslim right now is a similar experience to being a Japanese American in 1942, while we may disagree on political or religious beliefs, IMHO it would be ignorant of me to suggest "you go back where you are from" anymore than wishing Nancy Pelosi just go back to Italy or Mars or wherever her ancestors are from. However, as others have mentioned, there are members here who defend these rights we Americans enjoy with their service, sacrifice, and blood. Many of them are Southerners and Christians, have you considered this?
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 15:09
For some reason I am getting an error message when I try to reply directly to the post, so I am cutting and pasting here:
Anne/Army Mom[/QUOTE] Ma'am, why do you feel that, should you move to a country where Islam is the dominant faith, you could not practice your religion freely as you stated to me. In your response.
I didn't say that, Anne. What I said was that if a basic requirement of my religion was prohibited by law, I would have to make a choice between staying here or moving to a place where that requirement was not illegal - which in this hypothetical could be Canada or Mexico, not necessarily a country where Islam is the dominant faith.
Can you provide me with the exact part of the Quran that states a woman must cover everything but her hands and fa. In my research I find abundent references and commentaries otherwise. One of the wonderful things about this chatboard, is that we usualy give references thier due. I can provide my sourcse that I read today if you would like.
One is here. (http://www.submission.info/perspectives/women/dresscode.html)
and admittedly is Wiki, but it has a decent article ya and nay.. source for hajib here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab)
This link (http://www.jannah.org/sisters/hijab2.html) gives a good summary of Qur'an and sunnah sources for hijab.
My name is Anne, please, feel free to use it. I am simply an Army Mom, with a son serving it is why i have the nick.
anne
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 15:14
Echoes, my answer to the question of wearing hijab is in post 162.
Blue Sir,
Could not agree more with your above statements.
Ms. N,
Have a question...Why do you wear the hajib? Serious question, really, am curious.
We live in the United States of America, free from oppression because brave Men and women stand ready to give up their own lives to protect Our Constitution from those who would seek to pervert it. That Constitution gives you the right to complain, or rejoice as you see fit. It also affords me the right to protest your complaints.
Either way, Ms. N, you and I are not fighting and dying to protect Our Freedom. Until we do, maybe we should simply say, "Thank You," to Those that do, and be on our way!
Holly:munchin
P.S. 8 Posts, and the count stands at 74 "I's" and Me's"
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 15:17
Echoes, it is true that researching this site is a good thing. Perhaps you could have read my introduction before accusing me.
You understand Ms N.?????
Okay. Then why have I not seen a "THANK YOU," from you to the Brave Men who inhabit this site???
nevermind...
Holly
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 15:22
You mentioned in an earlier response that you once had a similar knee jerk reaction and linked your post. So, why did you do it again?
Do you think we should be more ahh...respectful of the feelings of a Muslim than a Christian?
It seems clear that I do not have the strength of character that many here do. I would add that my experience as an American Muslim presents challenges that are not all resolved in one learning opportunity.
We should be respectful of all religions.
armymom1228
04-11-2010, 15:47
This link gives a good summary of Qur'an and sunnah sources for hijab.
]
link is here, that tells about this insitute. (This link gives a good summary of Qur'an and sunnah sources for hijab.
)
Is this your ONLY basis for your reason to wear the Hajib?
It would seem that the references we each give contradict each other. I have noticed a tendency of Islam in the United States, those that convert to it... try to use some of the more extreme restrictions. The same tract offers nothing more than a quote from the Quran and an interpretation. Who's interpretation? What are thier qualifications to interpret? Islamic scholars and clerics have debated this issue for generations. It is not as clear cut as many newly converted Muslims in the US would like to think.
http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/women/albani_niqab.htm I deliberatly posted the url this way to show were exactly I found it. The auther, admittedly is against the waaring of the hijab and states his position.
I would think, before I followed just one tract, I would, as a thinking, rational woman, do the research as to how that religion truly affected me.
I can provide many more links, both ya and nay.. I trust you get my point. In your case it is truly more a personal preference than actual Sharia or Islamic law then?
Anne
The Reaper
04-11-2010, 15:52
It seems clear that I do not have the strength of character that many here do. I would add that my experience as an American Muslim presents challenges that are not all resolved in one learning opportunity.
We should be respectful of all religions.
Should all Muslims, worldwide, accept that Christians and Jews, as people of The Book, have a right to coexist without oppression or dhimmitude?
TR
Ambush Master
04-11-2010, 15:55
Exactly in which post?!?! Please specify by Post #, this is approx# 155, also please reply to #138
!!!
Still waiting!!!!!:munchin
armymom1228
04-11-2010, 16:00
Why, if you like Islam so much do you not move to an arabic speaking country and live under Sharia around those who believe as you do.. Anne
Ruth said:
I'm American, and in America I'm probably freer to practice my religion than anywhere else. I have no reason to move. As I noted before, I was wrong to complain about the Christian music - and you are right, especially wrong to do so in Texas, where there are stronger and more open religious views than in other areas.
Ruth said:
didn't say that, Anne. What I said was that if a basic requirement of my religion was prohibited by law, I would have to make a choice between staying here or moving to a place where that requirement was not illegal - which in this hypothetical could be Canada or Mexico, not necessarily a country where Islam is the dominant faith.
No you said you had no reason to move.
I am asking a pointedly provocative question. I want you to think about what you are saying, doing and how your Religion of Peace affects millions of women in countries other than the United States.
The above statements are contradicory... I will ask this again.. IF you love Islam so much, why not move to a country that the majority religion is Islam and the law of the land is Sharia. Would you not feel better as a Muslim to be with those of like mind? You seem to side step a lot of questions.
Anne
.......We should be respectful of all religions.
We should but I've found that the people of all religions that "launch" on others only serve to reenforce negative stereotypes.
It is worse when the person that "launched" wears distinctive religious clothing.
The key questions for you would be:
Do you consider yourself to be a good Muslim that believes Islam is the one true religion and all others who are not Muslim are Infidels?
Do you believe in the concept of Dar al-Islam vs Dar al-Harb?
Do you believe in the practice of deception (Taqiyyah) when dealing with non-Muslims?
Does abrogation have a bearing on the Surahs as written in the Quran?
As a side note - You might be surprised but a number of members of this board have copies of the Quran and have read it. Mine is the English Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall.
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 16:40
You seem to side step a lot of questions.
Anne
I'm sorry, I just don't have to time to answer them all thoroughly. Please give me a break.
It seems clear that I do not have the strength of character that many here do.
That's a bit passive aggressive. Everyone has challenges that are not "all resolved in one learning opportunity". :rolleyes: Why do you refer to yourself as American Muslim, instead of American?
Yes we should respect all religions. Unless they condone and promote the murder of non-believers. I don't see Islam respecting any other religion but its own. Why is that?
Oh yeah, I think you were intentionally looking for a reaction and that's why you did it again.
I'm sorry, I just don't have to time to answer them all thoroughly. Please give me a break.
Then why are you here?
Please give me a break.The break area is in the deep end of the pool. That said, I promised myself not to jump into this maelstrom, but I never listen to my better judgement. That aside, let me express my outrage to you.
You choose to be offended by the religious expression of others. No offense is intended, so it is your choice...you wish to move through our society untouched by the beliefs of others. That is not realistic. Your intolerance toward the religious beliefs of others is insulting to me. I spent a good part of my adult life maintaining these freedoms for Americans, you included. There are those who participate in this forum that have shed blood and lost limbs n the defense of these freedoms. I see your attitude as nothing less than callous disrespect, akin to spitting on us. As the son of a man who fought in three wars to defend this country and the rights that you seem to selectively enjoy, as the descendant of men who fought to establish these rights, my feeling is that you would piss on the graves of these men. I am that deeply offended.
You seem to rant and recant. That is a privilege of living in this society. It does not lend credibility to your position(s), but c'est le guerre. You are a consumer of freedoms provided by others. And, I might add, you are at leisure to enjoy all the freedoms of being an American and still practice a religion mired in the Sixth Century. You can pick your rights and beliefs, ala carte. It is the American way.
You do not seem to be unlike my ex-wife, who converted to Buddhism, became a vegetarian and renounced violence, war, militarism and all who practice those endeavors...she also renounced materialism...she did not renounce the 43% of my military pension she is "entitled" to, nor did she move out of the $400K house we lived in...ain't American great?
GratefulCitizen
04-11-2010, 18:55
Ruth Nasrullah:
It would seem that your primary focus is on your own feelings and how you are affected by events.
Communication involves both understanding and being understood.
It would seem that you are only interested in being understood.
The men for whom this site was created most certainly understand you, that is part of their expertise.
Without referring to your own feelings or beliefs, would you be able to describe how your comments/actions affect them?
This would demonstrate the "understanding" part of communication on your part.
Just curious.
Ambush Master
04-11-2010, 20:52
Maybe we need to cut and paste this thread into HER BLOG!!!
Perhaps then, she would answer all of the questions!!
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 21:18
I apologize - my answer was in post 147.
Exactly in which post?!?! Please specify by Post #, this is approx# 155, also please reply to #138
!!!
The Reaper
04-11-2010, 21:18
There are some great questions being posed here.
Hopefully, Ms. Nasrullah will soon find the time to respond to them.
I would really like to get her response to how she feels as an American Muslim woman. Since most of the interpretations I have seen of the Koran indicate that women are not even second-class citizens, but are chattel property suitable only for breeding purposes, does she accept that her husband is her master and she can be physically assaulted and quickly disposed of should she displease him? Or does her American upbringing mean that she considers herself to be the peer and equal of her husband, subject to the laws of the United States, not sharia? If she has daughters, would she accept them being married off before they even reach puberty to much older men who are practicing polygamists? Not trying to embarass anyone, I just do not honestly see how the two cultures can be reconciled to the satisfaction of either.
To the PS.com members asking their own questions, please be respectful and patient.
TR
ruth nasrullah
04-11-2010, 21:28
Hello, The Reaper. Yes, that is a worthy goal and I don't see it as incompatible with Islamic values. I don't know a lot about the concept of the "dhimmi," but my understanding is that it applies only within in an Islamic government. I hear "dhimmitude" used frequently by critics of Islam who assert that all Muslims seek to give non-Muslims second-class status of some sort. I have never heard of such a thing from Muslims.
Should all Muslims, worldwide, accept that Christians and Jews, as people of The Book, have a right to coexist without oppression or dhimmitude?
TR
What I said was that if a basic requirement of my religion was prohibited by law, I would have to make a choice between staying here or moving to a place where that requirement was not illegal - which in this hypothetical could be Canada or Mexico, not necessarily a country where Islam is the dominant faith.
Hello Ma'am (Ruth), the above statement intrigues me...as codified by Shariah Law, do you think homosexuals should face capital punishment?
Does Shariah Law trump our Constitution?
Thanks in advance, T-Rock
I imagine being an American Muslim right now is a similar experience to being a Japanese American in 1942...
I'd put the year at 1919/20.
My $0.02.
Dozer523
04-12-2010, 04:04
That said, I promised myself not to jump into this maelstrom, but I never listen to my better judgement. That aside, Me too, on both counts. Oh well. . .
Ruth Nasrullah:
It would seem that your primary focus is on your own feelings and how you are affected by events. Well, it is a blog. You think you hear the Morris Albert song reading Ruth's blog? You ought to try my Daughter-In-Law's blog;) . . .
Utah Bob
04-12-2010, 10:08
I posted at least once that as Ruth was free to ask the manager to turn the music down, he was also free to tell her to go fly a kite. He didn't do that. He turned the music down (or off). That was, ultimately, his choice.
Everyone seems to be ignoring that fact, and instead attacking Ruth's choice of religion.
People disagree with each other, and that they can do so loudly and openly is one of the many great things about this country. That they can also openly practice whatever religion they want is something else to celebrate.
When we start telling her that she needs to move out of the country because we disagree with her, I think (IMHO) that we are belittling the rights that so many on this site fought for, and others have died for.
Perhaps not everyone, Counsellor.
Everyone seems to be ignoring that fact, and instead attacking Ruth's choice of religion.
People disagree with each other, and that they can do so loudly and openly is one of the many great things about this country. That they can also openly practice whatever religion they want is something else to celebrate.
When we start telling her that she needs to move out of the country because we disagree with her, I think (IMHO) that we are belittling the rights that so many on this site fought for, and others have died for
Not everyone Ma'am.
ruth nasrullah
04-12-2010, 11:21
Sir, if I may I'd like to address the topic of being an American Muslim woman from a broader perspective. I have to preface my answer by saying that I am not an expert in religious affairs and there are many questions about Islamic belief and practice that I simply don't know enough to answer, or hesitate to answer for lack of knowledge. I leave that as a standing caveat to all my comments.
Although it's been called whining and self-centeredness on this thread, the topic I can best speak about is the experience of being an American Muslim woman, and that is what I try to stick to. I like to think there is something of value in writing about that. And since you've asked about my feelings, that's what I will discuss.
I was raised in a liberal environment without religious practice and little to no self-identification as a member of any religion (my father being Jewish and my last name being very Jewish constituted the only tie I ever felt to a particular faith). Growing up in the 60s and 70s, the women's "liberation" movement and the concept of sexual freedom very much informed the values I acquired. The public education system I was taught in held the assumption that teenagers would have sex, and so rather than teach us that abstinence was a valid choice, they taught us how to avoid getting pregnant or getting STDs. All this heavily influenced my self-perception as a woman. When I embraced Islam I entered a belief system which, while not as heinous as what you describe, does have well-delineated gender roles and strong restrictions on sexual activity outside marriage - both of which, of course, clash to some extent with the values I was raised with.
As I mentioned in an earlier comment on this thread, I came to Islam because of its strict monotheism, the beauty and rationality of belief in one God who creates and sustains all that exists. That is unshakable, and no matter what direction or school of thought I follow in my spiritual life, that is the bedrock both of Islam and of my belief system.
So as a Muslim i have a few basic articles (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/religion/islam/beliefs.html) of faith and "pillars (http://www.islam101.com/dawah/pillars.html)" of practice, but beyond those basics there are numerous, varied ways to live life as a Muslim. Sunni...Shia...Sufi...Salafi...Hanafi/Hanbali/Maliki/Shafii...there is a range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches), from following a particular scholar to making individual decisions on how to incorporate Qur'an and sunnah into one's life. Many times those choices are influenced by regional, cultural, familial or other external factors. Many times they are based on limited knowledge or education.
As an American, I enjoy the greatest freedom to make those choices. Yes, I can be similarly influenced by the people whom I spend the most time with - whether secular or religious leaders - or by cultural influences I associate with. But I can freely change my mind and there is no official entity that can force me not to, and no larger culture to make it infeasible for me to change my mind or way of life.
Getting back to my liberal upbringing...As a woman, there are indeed aspects of Islam that run counter to the values I was raised with - and in some cases the values held by the majority of American citizens. There are also some that enrich my life as a woman. But as in other aspects of Islam there is a spectrum of choices. Because clothing (http://womenshistory.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&zTi=1&sdn=womenshistory&cdn=education&tm=28&f=10&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&st=24&zu=http%3A//www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html) is often held as a symbol of women's roles in Islam (simply because it's visible, in my opinion), I can use that as an example: niqab/abaya/hijab/no hijab/conservative dresses/jeans. And as in previous examples, as an American I am free to make those choices without fear of retribution. (A choice, BTW, being eroded in some western European countries, but that's a topic for another day.)
I haven't given too many specific examples here, partly because of the length of this comment but also partly because I want to keep my remarks general and not sidetracked by particulars. Hopefully I have nonetheless accurately shared my experience and opinions as an American Muslim woman.
There are some great questions being posed here.
Hopefully, Ms. Nasrullah will soon find the time to respond to them.
I would really like to get her response to how she feels as an American Muslim woman. Since most of the interpretations I have seen of the Koran indicate that women are not even second-class citizens, but are chattel property suitable only for breeding purposes, does she accept that her husband is her master and she can be physically assaulted and quickly disposed of should she displease him? Or does her American upbringing mean that she considers herself to be the peer and equal of her husband, subject to the laws of the United States, not sharia? If she has daughters, would she accept them being married off before they even reach puberty to much older men who are practicing polygamists? Not trying to embarass anyone, I just do not honestly see how the two cultures can be reconciled to the satisfaction of either.
To the PS.com members asking their own questions, please be respectful and patient.
TR
ruth nasrullah
04-12-2010, 11:34
There are some great questions being posed here.
Hopefully, Ms. Nasrullah will soon find the time to respond to them.
I would really like to get her response to how she feels as an American Muslim woman. Since most of the interpretations I have seen of the Koran indicate that women are not even second-class citizens, but are chattel property suitable only for breeding purposes, does she accept that her husband is her master and she can be physically assaulted and quickly disposed of should she displease him? Or does her American upbringing mean that she considers herself to be the peer and equal of her husband, subject to the laws of the United States, not sharia? If she has daughters, would she accept them being married off before they even reach puberty to much older men who are practicing polygamists? Not trying to embarass anyone, I just do not honestly see how the two cultures can be reconciled to the satisfaction of either.
To the PS.com members asking their own questions, please be respectful and patient.
TR
Sir, I've responded to this in post 186 - hopefully when you see the length of my comment you'll understand why I'm taking so much time in answering! :)
These are important issues and I want to be sure my comments have some depth to them.
This thread is begining to get a bit crowded.
Many asking questions of only one.
To get a bit more focus I'll ask all the non-QPs to stop posting in this thread - for a while.
After Ms Nasrullah gets caught up we can continue with women's rights, Darfur, Nigeria, Iran, etc, etc, etc - and Turkey's slid from a secular nation.
ruth nasrullah
04-12-2010, 14:26
Very intresting you were raised in a very liberal enviroment during that time frame. A fact I am not surprised at. An observation of mine is the culture you were raised in while professing being open minded in fact are very close minded with anyone that does not agreee with their views are called close minded nazi. One of the big things that happen in that culture or sub culture actually are they are easly offended. They are offended when people pray in school, offended when people show their support for wars etc.
How does this involve you. Well you seem to be offended easly when you are faced with or see something you do not agree with or believe in. IMHO your emotional reaction to anything christain or against your beliefs stems from your upbrininging of intolerance not because you of Islam. If you had embraced Christain faith you would be intolerant of Islam in the same emotional way. Don't take this as a slam on you or an attack, just an observation. I am not even saying you are a bad person. None of us are perfect. I certanly have my faults.
Anyway back to our regular programming.
You are 100% right on target. Absolutely correct.
Peregrino
04-12-2010, 18:49
Ms. Nasrullah - A simple observation based on my reading of your responses to the questions posed here: I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that we understand your adopted faith better than you do. Your "viewpoints on being an american muslim woman" post appears to be a regurgitation of only those Islamic precepts that you "cherry picked" to address the apparent deficiencies of the worldview you were exposed to while growing up. Your "pop culture" Islam is a uniquely American invention; one of the greatest successes of taqiyyah in the modern era. You really should undertake a form of the hadj and live in Saudi Arabia for a few years. Theirs is the true Islam (just ask them if you don't believe me! :rolleyes:). I can guarantee it'll be educational. FWIW - I've enjoyed reading the questions and your responses; both give me insight into aspects of the ongoing culture war that I'm relatively isolated from. I wish you luck with the path you've chosen in life. As for me - if anyone approaches the women of my family and attempts to subject them to Islam, I will visit violence on them - in Biblical measure.
I applaud your honesty. I also appreciate you realizing I was not attacking you..................
Brush Okie;
You did read my post # 188? Just wondering. Reply in a PM as to why you're special.
Pete
Still waiting for answers to the hard questions now that the touchy feely ones have been beat to death.
Sacamuelas
04-13-2010, 08:39
Per the ADMINS and MODs on this board... this thread is now a QP only thread until deemed otherwise. Just to Recap here are the questions that have been posed to Ruth. Ruth, for the sake of order, please try to answer the questions in the order below. Again, please respond in as detailed and honestly as you can if you wish to continue with this thread. Take your time. Btw- Thank you for coming to this forum to discuss these issues from your perspective.
Here we go....
__________________________________________________ ___
Pete: #68
Do some have special rights when it comes to being offended?
Does her "offended" have higher status than my "offended"?
Is having to listen to religious music in a public - non-government - place "offensive"?
Were some of the posts on this thread "offensive" to her. Is having to read her posts "offensive" to some
__________________________________________________ _____
Pete #93
So was she upset because it was Christian music or just because it was religious music. Does she want to be "Christian Free" or "Religion Free"?
If the clerk would have been from Africa playing a tape of local dialect Christian music would she have asked what it was to be sure it wasn't bad music? Would she have cared?
If the clerk had been from a Muslim country and the tape was in Arabic but with a religious slant would she have demanded that it be shut off or would she have said "My, what nice music. So nice to hear it."?
__________________________________________________
Pete #118
Once again - is the point of view against Christianity or all Religions?
Only she can answer that. Would she have got all fired up if the store's canned music cut out and an Imam's call to prayer started up? Would you smile and like the Christian music but flip out over the call to prayer?
__________________________________________________
craigepo #123
While in a Muslim town, I noticed that a Muslim "call to prayer" was playing, very loudly, from a nearby mosque. The music was so loud that it was audible not only in the town, but quite some distance outside the city limits.
Should I have shown the same righteous indignation that you evidenced by your reaction to the Christian song playing in the Houston store? Would such a complaint, made by a Christian in a Muslim country, be given the same opportunity in the "marketplace of ideas" that your article/complaint has received in your hometown newspaper?
What specific writing or teaching of Christ do you find so objectionable that you become appalled at merely hearing Christian music?
Do you believe that the "verse of the sword" found in the Koran should be given a literal or figurative meaning?
__________________________________________________ __
Blue902 #124
4. What is your explanation for reconciling following Islam as a peaceful tolerant religion with the precept that you cannot withstand encountering other religions in this country without considerable angst?
__________________________________________________ _____
Richard #125
Q1: As an SF soldier who has lived among various communities throughout the world, a general rule of thumb we tended to abide by was the ages old "When in Rome..."
Have you ever considered using or have used such a philosophy? And if not - why not?
Q2: I've used taxis in various parts of the world because it usually beats walking. In every country I've been in and used a cab, they almost always are playing some form of local music on their radios. Here in America, I have also been in a number of cabs driven by naturalized citizens who continue to play the music of their native lands - some of it quite discordant to my ears. When asked to turn it down, they have - but unless it was overtly scatalogical or profane, I have never asked them to turn it off even if it was of a religious nature, although I imagine they would have if I had politely requested they do so.
From your point-of-view, are the tenets of your personal beliefs so rigid towards other cultures that something as mundane as religious music is seemingly so offensive that it is seen as a challenge or a threat to those beliefs? Why?
Q3: In your blog you stated:
"I suspect there was also a latent cultural bias behind my irritation. I don't think this would ever happen in the northeast, the part of the country that I will always think of as home. A Christian radio station playing in a well-known department store - I just can't imagine it happening, or at least not happening without protest. That's the norm I'm familiar with."
Based on that statement, I would have to surmise you have never been to any major retail stores/malls in the Northeast at any time between Thanksgiving and Christmas when nearly all radio stations (and store muzak systems) are playing some form of 'Christian' holiday music (e.g., Silent Night). or did you just forget?
_________________________________________________
lonewolf #134
I don't quite understand why, being a muslim, you say you are not qualified to discuss the qu'ran? I am quite interested in your response to this.
__________________________________________________ __
AKV #161
The one thing all of these immigrants had in common was a willingness to assimilate into US society, however it seems this is a challenge for Islamic communities in Western nations, do you agree, and if so why do you think this is the case?
Also , as an American Muslim and a woman, enjoying the freedoms and rights you mentioned, how do interpret the treatment of women under the Taliban regime?
__________________________________________________ ______
Reaper #167
Should all Muslims, worldwide, accept that Christians and Jews, as people of The Book, have a right to coexist without oppression or dhimmitude?
__________________________________________________ ______
Pete #170
Do you consider yourself to be a good Muslim that believes Islam is the one true religion and all others who are not Muslim are Infidels?
Do you believe in the concept of Dar al-Islam vs Dar al-Harb?
Do you believe in the practice of deception (Taqiyyah) when dealing with non-Muslims?
Does abrogation have a bearing on the Surahs as written in the Quran?
__________________________________________________ _______
Reaper #177
...does she accept that her husband is her master and she can be physically assaulted and quickly disposed of should she displease him?
Or does her American upbringing mean that she considers herself to be the peer and equal of her husband, subject to the laws of the United States, not sharia?
If she has daughters, would she accept them being married off before they even reach puberty to much older men who are practicing polygamists?
__________________________________________________ ________
Trock #179
... as codified by Shariah Law, do you think homosexuals should face capital punishment?
Does Shariah Law trump our Constitution?
ruth nasrullah
04-13-2010, 09:11
Per the ADMINS and MODs on this board... this thread is now a QP only thread until deemed otherwise. Just to Recap here are the questions that have been posed to Ruth. Ruth, for the sake of order, please try to answer the questions in the order below. Again, please respond in as detailed and honestly as you can if you wish to continue with this thread. Take your time. Btw- Thank you for coming to this forum to discuss these issues from your perspective.
Here we go....
__________________________________________________ ___
Pete: #68
Do some have special rights when it comes to being offended?
Does her "offended" have higher status than my "offended"?
Is having to listen to religious music in a public - non-government - place "offensive"?
Were some of the posts on this thread "offensive" to her. Is having to read her posts "offensive" to some
__________________________________________________ _____
Pete #93
So was she upset because it was Christian music or just because it was religious music. Does she want to be "Christian Free" or "Religion Free"?
If the clerk would have been from Africa playing a tape of local dialect Christian music would she have asked what it was to be sure it wasn't bad music? Would she have cared?
If the clerk had been from a Muslim country and the tape was in Arabic but with a religious slant would she have demanded that it be shut off or would she have said "My, what nice music. So nice to hear it."?
__________________________________________________
Pete #118
Once again - is the point of view against Christianity or all Religions?
Only she can answer that. Would she have got all fired up if the store's canned music cut out and an Imam's call to prayer started up? Would you smile and like the Christian music but flip out over the call to prayer?
__________________________________________________
craigepo #123
While in a Muslim town, I noticed that a Muslim "call to prayer" was playing, very loudly, from a nearby mosque. The music was so loud that it was audible not only in the town, but quite some distance outside the city limits.
Should I have shown the same righteous indignation that you evidenced by your reaction to the Christian song playing in the Houston store? Would such a complaint, made by a Christian in a Muslim country, be given the same opportunity in the "marketplace of ideas" that your article/complaint has received in your hometown newspaper?
What specific writing or teaching of Christ do you find so objectionable that you become appalled at merely hearing Christian music?
Do you believe that the "verse of the sword" found in the Koran should be given a literal or figurative meaning?
__________________________________________________ __
Blue902 #124
4. What is your explanation for reconciling following Islam as a peaceful tolerant religion with the precept that you cannot withstand encountering other religions in this country without considerable angst?
__________________________________________________ _____
Richard #125
Q1: As an SF soldier who has lived among various communities throughout the world, a general rule of thumb we tended to abide by was the ages old "When in Rome..."
Have you ever considered using or have used such a philosophy? And if not - why not?
Q2: I've used taxis in various parts of the world because it usually beats walking. In every country I've been in and used a cab, they almost always are playing some form of local music on their radios. Here in America, I have also been in a number of cabs driven by naturalized citizens who continue to play the music of their native lands - some of it quite discordant to my ears. When asked to turn it down, they have - but unless it was overtly scatalogical or profane, I have never asked them to turn it off even if it was of a religious nature, although I imagine they would have if I had politely requested they do so.
From your point-of-view, are the tenets of your personal beliefs so rigid towards other cultures that something as mundane as religious music is seemingly so offensive that it is seen as a challenge or a threat to those beliefs? Why?
Q3: In your blog you stated:
"I suspect there was also a latent cultural bias behind my irritation. I don't think this would ever happen in the northeast, the part of the country that I will always think of as home. A Christian radio station playing in a well-known department store - I just can't imagine it happening, or at least not happening without protest. That's the norm I'm familiar with."
Based on that statement, I would have to surmise you have never been to any major retail stores/malls in the Northeast at any time between Thanksgiving and Christmas when nearly all radio stations (and store muzak systems) are playing some form of 'Christian' holiday music (e.g., Silent Night). or did you just forget?
_________________________________________________
lonewolf #134
I don't quite understand why, being a muslim, you say you are not qualified to discuss the qu'ran? I am quite interested in your response to this.
__________________________________________________ __
AKV #161
The one thing all of these immigrants had in common was a willingness to assimilate into US society, however it seems this is a challenge for Islamic communities in Western nations, do you agree, and if so why do you think this is the case?
Also , as an American Muslim and a woman, enjoying the freedoms and rights you mentioned, how do interpret the treatment of women under the Taliban regime?
__________________________________________________ ______
Reaper #167
Should all Muslims, worldwide, accept that Christians and Jews, as people of The Book, have a right to coexist without oppression or dhimmitude?
__________________________________________________ ______
Pete #170
Do you consider yourself to be a good Muslim that believes Islam is the one true religion and all others who are not Muslim are Infidels?
Do you believe in the concept of Dar al-Islam vs Dar al-Harb?
Do you believe in the practice of deception (Taqiyyah) when dealing with non-Muslims?
Does abrogation have a bearing on the Surahs as written in the Quran?
__________________________________________________ _______
Reaper #177
...does she accept that her husband is her master and she can be physically assaulted and quickly disposed of should she displease him?
Or does her American upbringing mean that she considers herself to be the peer and equal of her husband, subject to the laws of the United States, not sharia?
If she has daughters, would she accept them being married off before they even reach puberty to much older men who are practicing polygamists?
__________________________________________________ ________
Trock #179
... as codified by Shariah Law, do you think homosexuals should face capital punishment?
Does Shariah Law trump our Constitution?
Thank you so much for taking the time to put the questions together into one post. That's tremendously helpful. A preface to my answers, if I may:
I am not going to be able to answer all of these questions. Some touch on topics I normally do not discuss because I am not qualified to do so. Some Muslims are willing to supply opinions where facts are required, but that's dishonest and I won't do it.
I didn't come here under the pretense that I was an expert in Islam.
I can't expound on "sharia" or give you an analysis of why some Muslims are hostile to the US and the non-Muslim world. If you expect that I can, it may be because you are assuming that Islam is monolithic. I tried in post 186 to explain that it is not, but in post 191 Peregrino told me that I was wrong, that my religion is not religion but a pop culture phenomenon. If that is how my answers are received, I'd rather not continue. (BTW, that answer took me a couple of hours to write.) If I take your questions seriously, please take my answers seriously.
A faith practice that takes the best of Islamic values and the best of American values is developing in this country, and if you want to gain insight into that I can help you. If you are willing to have me say "I don't know" or "I can't answer that" or "that's not compatible with the type of Islam I practice," then I can continue on here. If not, please let me know before I spend that much time writing answers again.
PM inbound Ruth. -Saca
.......A faith practice that takes the best of Islamic values and the best of American values is developing in this country, and if you want to gain insight into that I can help you. ........
You do know that statement makes you an apostate?
Peregrino
04-13-2010, 13:45
You do know that statement makes you an apostate?
As evidenced by her reply to me, apparently not.
Spiritual confusion on a bedrock of faith
http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpath/2010/04/spiritual_confusion_on_a_bedro.html?utm_source=fee dburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+houstonchronicle%2Fthestraigh tpath+%28Reader+blog%3A+The+Straight+Path%29
.........Some claim that Islam cannot exist without its law - I hear that from conservative Muslims and from critics (and haters) of Islam. Is it possible that in my small world all that matters is belief in God and spiritual practice? Can this too be Islam?....."
Ruth Nasrullah;
I went to your blog and read your last entry and the comments that followed. Your last paragraph in the blog was the most telling to me.
The "critics (and haters) of Islam" do not make up the stuff they are posting. They are simply repeating what the "conservative Muslims" say.
If somebody says something bad about the Quran and a Muslim kills them it's not the fault of the Muslim? That is what your two Muslim posters were saying in the comments section. That and they were ticked that one of the posters asked for a straight answer.
There is no picking and choosing in the Quran. And Ansar and Jabs have pointed out to you. Behind all the "Peace and Love" in the Quran is the sword ready to be used on all who are non-believers and apostates.
Did you get the tone of Jabs and Ansar towards you? Kinda' like - just shut up and do what you're told, leave the deep thinking to us.
Green Light
04-19-2010, 06:55
After all, "she's only a woman" and women aren't supposed to question in Islam, just do what they're told.
ruth nasrullah
04-19-2010, 11:00
Spiritual confusion on a bedrock of faith
http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpath/2010/04/spiritual_confusion_on_a_bedro.html?utm_source=fee dburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+houstonchronicle%2Fthestraigh tpath+%28Reader+blog%3A+The+Straight+Path%29
.........Some claim that Islam cannot exist without its law - I hear that from conservative Muslims and from critics (and haters) of Islam. Is it possible that in my small world all that matters is belief in God and spiritual practice? Can this too be Islam?....."
Ruth Nasrullah;
I went to your blog and read your last entry and the comments that followed. Your last paragraph in the blog was the most telling to me.
The "critics (and haters) of Islam" do not make up the stuff they are posting. They are simply repeating what the "conservative Muslims" say.
If somebody says something bad about the Quran and a Muslim kills them it's not the fault of the Muslim? That is what your two Muslim posters were saying in the comments section. That and they were ticked that one of the posters asked for a straight answer.
There is no picking and choosing in the Quran. And Ansar and Jabs have pointed out to you. Behind all the "Peace and Love" in the Quran is the sword ready to be used on all who are non-believers and apostates.
Did you get the tone of Jabs and Ansar towards you? Kinda' like - just shut up and do what you're told, leave the deep thinking to us.
Sir, I cannot help but wonder why some PS site members assert that extremist Islam is the only Islam and that Muslims with less intolerant views and practices are either duped or ignorant (if I understand this criticism correctly). It almost makes it seem as though you agree with this view of Islam - you appear to be unwilling to accept another version as valid and within the bounds of the faith. (Please forgive me saying "you" - I don't mean to generalize all members' viewpoints; hopefully it's clear to whom I'm referring.)
Regarding my latest post ("Spiritual confusion etc."), I was actually inspired in writing it by my experience on this forum. What I said in the post is true: over the last few years I have been influenced by a conservative view of Islam, and gradually have been exploring others. In the line you quoted, Pete, some of the commenters here - not just in this thread but in multiple places throughout the forums - are the "critics/haters of Islam" I refer to, those who seem to ascribe to the idea that only a severe, law-based Islam is valid. It is ironic that reader "Jabs" went down exactly the road I described myself as turning away from and criticized me for publicly questioning even though I made it clear that I am entirely devoted to the fundamental beliefs of Islam (which, ironically again, are described in the hadith of Jibril which he quoted in one of his many posts). That Jabs was driven into a frenzy by a few lines from Rumi probably reflects which end he's on in the Salafi-Sufi relationship.
I find it sad but telling, Pete, that of all the comments made on my post the only voice you heard was Jabs'. Every single other commenter shared courteous and thoughtful responses.
Ansar is a prolific commenter on Houstonbelief. His tone may be sanctimonous but I know it does not reflect extremism.
As for the sword-wielding, apostate-killing version of Islam some of you consider the only true version of the faith - in response I can only say that I do not practice a "kumbaya," peace-love-and-happiness, watered-down Islam, but one that is mainstream - grounded in the spiritual fundamentals of the faith and adapted to the world I live in. La ilaha il Allah - that is Islam.
Sir, I cannot help but wonder why some PS site members assert that extremist Islam is the only Islam.
Maybe jw74 failed to read the whole thread? Maybe jw74 is bucking for a new user name?
Edited by Pete
Green Light
04-19-2010, 11:29
As for the sword-wielding, apostate-killing version of Islam some of you consider the only true version of the faith - in response I can only say that I do not practice a "kumbaya," peace-love-and-happiness, watered-down Islam, but one that is mainstream - grounded in the spiritual fundamentals of the faith and adapted to the world I live in. La ilaha il Allah - that is Islam.
Then which is the Islam that was revealed by a prophet of God? If it is truth, then there can be only one truth. Which is it? Are you saying they (those who kill those who kill non-Muslims for not being Muslims) are in fact not Muslims and they are apostates?
......... What I said in the post is true: over the last few years I have been influenced by a conservative view of Islam, and gradually have been exploring others.........
Ruth;
Only in the west are you allowed to hold the views that you do. Go to any Muslim country under Sharia law and publicly state that you are going to pick and choose what to believe in the Quran. You will soon be hit with the views that we are telling you about.
Islam needs its own reformation but it will be slow in coming because the Quran will not be allowed to be changed. The views that it contains will not be changed and any who try and change it will not be considered true Muslims.
Until that time comes dar al Islam will continue to try and expand.
Turkey was a secular Islamic Nation for decades. Have you looked into it's political situation over the past few years? Would you consider it stable politically or sliding more into the grip of the religious leaders? Is the Military still the honest broker when it comes to maintaining the staus quo? What do you think will happen to Turkey in the next five years or so?
ruth nasrullah
04-19-2010, 12:05
Then which is the Islam that was revealed by a prophet of God? If it is truth, then there can be only one truth. Which is it? Are you saying they (those who kill those who kill non-Muslims for not being Muslims) are in fact not Muslims and they are apostates?
Sir, I would not make takfir on anyone unless they openly denied the shahada or practiced shirk - and even then I would not say someone has left Islam unless there was an important context or a very good reason.
In answering the question about "what is truth" I risk venturing into an area someone more scholarly than me might be better able to discuss - someone with more education than me in the historical development of Islamic practice as well as interpretations of source texts. I can only say that from my personal perspective the fundamental truth of life is tawheed, the truth of Islam is the shahada and the requirements of Islamic creed and practice are those listed in the hadith of Jibril. As I noted in an earlier comment, Muslims go off in many directions. Some Salafis say Sufis have a heretical view of tawheed; some "progressive" Muslims say chuck all the scholarship, I can figure it out on my own.
My personal goal is to walk the moderate path, gaining as much knowledge as I can from as many sources as I can. I used to think I knew it all but now I'm not so sure.
Again, I'm sorry if that sounds kumbaya or disingenuous, but to me it's just sensible.
(BTW, am I correct to assume most of you are familiar with the Arabic terms I'm using but not defining?)
ruth nasrullah
04-19-2010, 12:10
Then which is the Islam that was revealed by a prophet of God? If it is truth, then there can be only one truth. Which is it? Are you saying they (those who kill those who kill non-Muslims for not being Muslims) are in fact not Muslims and they are apostates?
A quick response to the idea that Islam was revealed by a prophet - although we believe that Prophet Muhammad's sunnah is the one preserved in the most detail and carrying the greatest authority, we believe that the basic message of Islam - there is only one God; worship Him - was brought by all prophets, beginning with Adam and ending with Prophet Muhammad.
.....(BTW, am I correct to assume most of you are familiar with the Arabic terms I'm using but not defining?)
Tawheed or Tawhid and other terms.
Yes, most are or, if not, would look it up. We don't like to use wikie as a source but sometimes it's good for a fast definition and gives some information for looking in different areas for more data.
I asked you earlier about abrogation and you never addressed the issue. The Quran was not all written at the same time nor was it written in the same place.
The Christian Bible is written in two parts, the Old (Jewish) eye for an eye section and the New (Time of Jesus) section. Ruth, I am no expert in anything religious and many could rip me apart but the Bible is abrogation in a sense. By believing in Jesus the New Abrogates the Old.
The Quran transitions from Mecca to Al-madinah and into the Hijrah. The abrogation of the Quran moves from peace to warfare. Abrogation sets war over peace in the Quran.
Do you believe in Abrogation as it applies to the Quran?
ruth nasrullah
04-19-2010, 13:02
Ruth;
Only in the west are you allowed to hold the views that you do. Go to any Muslim country under Sharia law and publicly state that you are going to pick and choose what to believe in the Quran. You will soon be hit with the views that we are telling you about.
Islam needs its own reformation but it will be slow in coming because the Quran will not be allowed to be changed. The views that it contains will not be changed and any who try and change it will not be considered true Muslims.
Until that time comes dar al Islam will continue to try and expand.
Turkey was a secular Islamic Nation for decades. Have you looked into it's political situation over the past few years? Would you consider it stable politically or sliding more into the grip of the religious leaders? Is the Military still the honest broker when it comes to maintaining the staus quo? What do you think will happen to Turkey in the next five years or so?
Sir, I'm not sure if I understand you regarding the Qur'an. There are things in the Qur'an that are clear (example: how to wash before prayer) and things that are unclear, perhaps because they are allegorical or perhaps because God chose to leave them incompletely explained for purposes known only to Him. Again, I am unable and unwilling to delve too deeply into the topic of tafseer or Qur'anic exegesis, but I do know that scholarly interpretation of the Qur'an is not monolithic.
To me, it is a mainstream Islamic viewpoint to believe that the Qur'an is the revealed word of God that has remained and will remain intact for all time, but whose interpretations may differ. Yet it seems that each time I refer to that type of thinking here I receive harsh disagreement from site members. You say that Islam needs "reformation," and although I think that means different things to each of us, when I read that I couldn't help but think - if "reformation" is what is needed, how is it helpful to otherize western Muslims? If, as an example, our efforts to gain a foothold in the political system or to ask for equal treatment are seen as "stealth jihad" or "creeping sharia," how will that "reformation" ever take place? How will our voices be heard if we are continually accused of "taqiyya"?
ruth nasrullah
04-19-2010, 13:11
Tawheed or Tawhid and other terms.
Yes, most are or, if not, would look it up. We don't like to use wikie as a source but sometimes it's good for a fast definition and gives some information for looking in different areas for more data.
I asked you earlier about abrogation and you never addressed the issue. The Quran was not all written at the same time nor was it written in the same place.
The Christian Bible is written in two parts, the Old (Jewish) eye for an eye section and the New (Time of Jesus) section. Ruth, I am no expert in anything religious and many could rip me apart but the Bible is abrogation in a sense. By believing in Jesus the New Abrogates the Old.
The Quran transitions from Mecca to Al-madinah and into the Hijrah. The abrogation of the Quran moves from peace to warfare. Abrogation sets war over peace in the Quran.
Do you believe in Abrogation as it applies to the Quran?
I have spent a couple hours today on this site, so abrogation will have to be deferred for now.
As for the Arabic terms, please feel free to ask me for clarifications if Wiki doesn't seem to agree with what I'm saying <smile>.
....., when I read that I couldn't help but think - if "reformation" is what is needed, how is it helpful to otherize western Muslims? If, as an example, our efforts to gain a foothold in the political system or to ask for equal treatment are seen as "stealth jihad" or "creeping sharia," how will that "reformation" ever take place? How will our voices be heard if we are continually accused of "taqiyya"?
Reformation must come from within Islam. But that can not happen because the Quran is perfect and can not be changed.
Interesting that you would use "taqiyya" in that way. One who believes as you may not be using "taqiyya". But "taqiyya" is an approved tactic of Islam. So the big question for an Infidel is "Is this Muslim practicing Taqiyya or not? " So maybe a first step in Islam could be to denounce the use of Taqiyya? Oh, wait, it's use is approved in the Quran. See how tangled all this gets.
How are you as a Muslim not afforded the same rights as Christians in this country? Could it be your demand for equal rights could be a demand for special rights? If a company has a dress code and your dress violates it should you sue on religious grounds? They will not hire you because of the way you dress - not because of your religion. If you are hired as a taxi driver do you have a right to refuse service to a customer who has a dog. How about someone who has a few bottles of booze? If you are hired as a check out person in a food store do you have a right to refuse to handle pork products?
Are Christains given equal rights as Muslims in countries under Sharia law?
Do you as a woman have more rights here than in a Muslim Country under Sharia law. Can you go shopping without a male family member? Granted, in some Muslim countries you can, in others you would be beaten.
What would happen to you, if when living in Texas, you convert to Christianity? What if you convert in Saudi Arabia?
Green Light
04-19-2010, 15:00
A quick response to the idea that Islam was revealed by a prophet - although we believe that Prophet Muhammad's sunnah is the one preserved in the most detail and carrying the greatest authority, we believe that the basic message of Islam - there is only one God; worship Him - was brought by all prophets, beginning with Adam and ending with Prophet Muhammad.
If that is true, then each prophet must agree with the others. There cannot be anything that one prophet says (prophetically) that another says is not true.
Everything goes all the way back to creation. Abraham wrote of the grand council in heaven. That we were all there. Elohim offered a plan that would allow us to go to the earth, receive bodies, learn from our experiences, and return. Some would fail, some would not. Lucifer offered a plan that would cause everyone to return. No one would be lost. But it would be at the expense of free will. The war in heaven was fought over this. Lucifer and his followers were cast out, never to receive bodies. Muhammed taught that everyone would either accept "his plan" or be killed. Convert or die, taking away free will, just as Lucifer wanted. The Prophet Abraham wrote of this war. We both believe Abraham was a prophet of God, that God revealed these things to him. But Mohammed's revelation required that he take away that freedom of choice. They can't both be prophets. They can't receive contradictory revelation from the same Being.
You mention Adam. In the creation story, all animals and creeping things were placed on the earth from the lowest creation to the grandest. That greatest creation was not Adam (which means "human") but was Eve - she, woman, was the greatest creation. Does this sound like the way that women are treated in Islam? No. Quite the opposite. She was the "mother of all living." She figured out the puzzle they were given: they were commanded to be fruitful and multiply and fill (replenish is actually a bad translation) the earth. But they were in a state that didn't allow them to do this - they had to be mortal. When Lucifer offered them the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, he refused. Eve realized that for there to be children and for them to have knowledge (knowing good from evil by experiencing both), she would have to eat the fruit. Then when Eve explained it to Adam, he knew that it was the way things had to be. Eve was smarter than Adam. She figured out the riddle. Yes, they became mortal, but they would have children who would have the opportunity to choose for themselves.
The prophets of the Old Testament were given revelation to prepare for the coming of Messiah. Everything in it testifies of Him. Yes, there are those who believe He hasn't come yet. Everything down to the way animals were sacrificed: they had to be without blemish, the finest of the flock. No bones could be broken. This was in the similitude of the final sacrifice. When he was ritually cleansed in the Jordan River, the Holy Ghost came upon Him and from the heavens came the voice saying "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased." Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. We both say that he was a prophet. Was he also a ventriloquist? We're talking three deities here. If you say he was a prophet, was he lying? If so he wasn't a prophet, then Mohammed was lying.
If Islam is true, being a revealed religion, then everything must be true or everything is a lie. There is no in-between. There can be no "moderate" road. Those who murder people like me, my wife, and my children because we have made the decision to do otherwise are not cast out. They are at best tolerated and at worst revered as heroes.
The truth is not like philosophy. You can't say that the sun will come up on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays except when they're even days of the month. And when it doesn't happen that way say "well, that's just what I believe." That won't work.
If you believe that I should have my head cut off because I don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet, fine. As long as you don't get out your knife, we'll get along OK. But if you believe that he was who and what he claimed to be, then you'd better be ready to accept the whole bucket.
ruth nasrullah
04-20-2010, 09:22
Tawheed or Tawhid and other terms.
Yes, most are or, if not, would look it up. We don't like to use wikie as a source but sometimes it's good for a fast definition and gives some information for looking in different areas for more data.
I asked you earlier about abrogation and you never addressed the issue. The Quran was not all written at the same time nor was it written in the same place.
The Christian Bible is written in two parts, the Old (Jewish) eye for an eye section and the New (Time of Jesus) section. Ruth, I am no expert in anything religious and many could rip me apart but the Bible is abrogation in a sense. By believing in Jesus the New Abrogates the Old.
The Quran transitions from Mecca to Al-madinah and into the Hijrah. The abrogation of the Quran moves from peace to warfare. Abrogation sets war over peace in the Quran.
Do you believe in Abrogation as it applies to the Quran?
I only know a little bit about abrogation in the Qur'an and I know very, very little about the Bible. I suspect that your comment overemphasizes abrogation as a characteristic of the Qur'an. I am aware that the concept has been seized on by critics of Islam as a tool in invalidating the Qur'an, much as the concept of taqiyya has been used to discredit Muslims. That said...
Your comment that Madinan verses abrogate Meccan verses isn't entirely accurate - or at least describes the differences simplistically. Studying seerah helps to understand why Madinan verses discuss law and Meccan verses discuss tawheed and the stories of the prophets. Unfortunately right now I can't find my notes from a class I recently took on the Qur'an, so I won't risk speaking in error by expanding further on the differences. Suffice it to say that abrogations are few, and the difference in content between Madinan and Meccan verses are clarified by study of the history of the Qur'ans revelation. Context is key.
It is an important point to note that the Qur'an was revealed rather than written. I assume you don't share that belief, but if you look at it from that standpoint it may make more sense - or maybe that's just my "bias" speaking.
ruth nasrullah
04-20-2010, 09:29
Reformation must come from within Islam. But that can not happen because the Quran is perfect and can not be changed.
Interesting that you would use "taqiyya" in that way. One who believes as you may not be using "taqiyya". But "taqiyya" is an approved tactic of Islam. So the big question for an Infidel is "Is this Muslim practicing Taqiyya or not? " So maybe a first step in Islam could be to denounce the use of Taqiyya? Oh, wait, it's use is approved in the Quran. See how tangled all this gets.
How are you as a Muslim not afforded the same rights as Christians in this country? Could it be your demand for equal rights could be a demand for special rights? If a company has a dress code and your dress violates it should you sue on religious grounds? They will not hire you because of the way you dress - not because of your religion. If you are hired as a taxi driver do you have a right to refuse service to a customer who has a dog. How about someone who has a few bottles of booze? If you are hired as a check out person in a food store do you have a right to refuse to handle pork products?
Are Christains given equal rights as Muslims in countries under Sharia law?
Do you as a woman have more rights here than in a Muslim Country under Sharia law. Can you go shopping without a male family member? Granted, in some Muslim countries you can, in others you would be beaten.
What would happen to you, if when living in Texas, you convert to Christianity? What if you convert in Saudi Arabia?
Sir, I will, God willing, respond in full to these questions later today, but a quick response to your musings on taqiyya - I imagine that the only way to decide if someone is lying is to judge their character and judge their motivation to lie.
...........- I imagine that the only way to decide if someone is lying is to judge their character and judge their motivation to lie.
Ruth, read the responses that you have made in this thread. You were asked direct questions and most you danced around and claimed not to have enough knowledge to answer.
The few that you kinda' sorta' answered were - well, let us just say not in agreement with the leaders of Islam.
Be glad you live in a country that allows you to practice your religion the way you wish.
Some light reading for you
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam
"Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam"
"...Abrogation in Classical Scholarship
Muslim scholars in the classical period agreed about the principle of abrogation in the Qur'an. In the eleventh century, Abu Muhammad ‘Ali bin Ahmad bin Sa‘id Ibn Hazim (d. 1064), an Andalusian theologian, philosopher, historian, and jurist, examined the Qur'an chapter by chapter to show which verses supplanted other verses.[25]
Classical scholars also examined the pattern in which Muhammad engaged in abrogation during revelation because Qur'anic laws were brief and insufficient for the needs of the huge Muslim community.[26] Muhammad changed his rules according to the circumstances. Within the hadith, there are a number of examples. Muhammad, for example, revealed verse 2:187 regulating sex during Ramadan after ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab questioned him.[27] Likewise, Muhammad abrogated another verse encouraging all believers to fight militarily for God (4:95) after he was challenged by a blind man who could not......."
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war
"How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War
Defeating Jihadist Terrorism"
"......However, one of the few books devoted to the subject, At-Taqiyya fi'l-Islam (Dissimulation in Islam) makes it clear that taqiyya is not limited to Shi'a dissimulating in fear of persecution. Written by Sami Mukaram, a former Islamic studies professor at the American University of Beirut and author of some twenty-five books on Islam, the book clearly demonstrates the ubiquity and broad applicability of taqiyya:
Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it … We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream … Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era......."
ruth nasrullah
04-20-2010, 13:33
Ruth, read the responses that you have made in this thread. You were asked direct questions and most you danced around and claimed not to have enough knowledge to answer.
The few that you kinda' sorta' answered were - well, let us just say not in agreement with the leaders of Islam.
Be glad you live in a country that allows you to practice your religion the way you wish.
Some light reading for you
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam
"Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam"
"...Abrogation in Classical Scholarship
Muslim scholars in the classical period agreed about the principle of abrogation in the Qur'an. In the eleventh century, Abu Muhammad ‘Ali bin Ahmad bin Sa‘id Ibn Hazim (d. 1064), an Andalusian theologian, philosopher, historian, and jurist, examined the Qur'an chapter by chapter to show which verses supplanted other verses.[25]
Classical scholars also examined the pattern in which Muhammad engaged in abrogation during revelation because Qur'anic laws were brief and insufficient for the needs of the huge Muslim community.[26] Muhammad changed his rules according to the circumstances. Within the hadith, there are a number of examples. Muhammad, for example, revealed verse 2:187 regulating sex during Ramadan after ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab questioned him.[27] Likewise, Muhammad abrogated another verse encouraging all believers to fight militarily for God (4:95) after he was challenged by a blind man who could not......."
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war
"How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War
Defeating Jihadist Terrorism"
"......However, one of the few books devoted to the subject, At-Taqiyya fi'l-Islam (Dissimulation in Islam) makes it clear that taqiyya is not limited to Shi'a dissimulating in fear of persecution. Written by Sami Mukaram, a former Islamic studies professor at the American University of Beirut and author of some twenty-five books on Islam, the book clearly demonstrates the ubiquity and broad applicability of taqiyya:
Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it … We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream … Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era......."
Well, I was asked for my personal opinion and I gave it. If I delved into a discussion of things I'm not knowledgeable about I would be taking us all down a path of deception. I've said before that I'm not knowledgeable to discuss many of these topics. I didn't come here to debate.
If your research tells you that lying and deception is a fundamental part of Islam, I don't know why you bother asking me questions. Closes the door to conversation before it begins.
ruth nasrullah
04-20-2010, 13:39
Well, I was asked for my personal opinion and I gave it. If I delved into a discussion of things I'm not knowledgeable about I would be taking us all down a path of deception. I've said before that I'm not knowledgeable to discuss many of these topics. I didn't come here to debate.
If your research tells you that lying and deception is a fundamental part of Islam, I don't know why you bother asking me questions. Closes the door to conversation before it begins.
Both sources for your response are meforum.org, a site with an agenda (as evidenced by their stated mission).
I suggest you read "War and Peace in the Life of the Prophet Muhammad" by Zakaria Bashier, or at least the first chapter.
.......If your research tells you that lying and deception is a fundamental part of Islam, I don't know why you bother asking me questions. Closes the door to conversation before it begins.
Your debate is not with me. It is with the Islamic Scholars who were quoted and sourced in the links provided.
I believe what they have to say. Do you?
ruth nasrullah
04-20-2010, 13:57
Your debate is not with me. It is with the Islamic Scholars who were quoted and sourced in the links provided.
I believe what they have to say. Do you?
How can I answer that when you assert that the scholars themselves support lying and deception? There is no answer to the question: Are you lying?
How can I answer that when you assert that the scholars themselves support lying and deception? There is no answer to the question: Are you lying?
You have it backwards.
You claim to have no knowledge in the areas we are talking about. I have pointed you to articles that quote and scource Islamic Scholars and their views on the subjects.
I believe what the Islamic Scholars have to say on the issue. The question is "Do you believe them?"
ruth nasrullah
04-20-2010, 15:22
You have it backwards.
You claim to have no knowledge in the areas we are talking about. I have pointed you to articles that quote and scource Islamic Scholars and their views on the subjects.
I believe what the Islamic Scholars have to say on the issue. The question is "Do you believe them?"
Right - and if I say I believe them, then logically I am lying. If I say I don't believe them, well again, I may be lying. Can't win.
I came here because you were discussing me, not to prove any points about Islam or Muslims. Dialogue is a good thing, but I have not found it here.
La ilaha il Allah - that is Islam.
lonewolf726
04-20-2010, 19:28
If, as an example, our efforts to gain a foothold in the political system or to ask for equal treatment are seen as "stealth jihad" or "creeping sharia," how will that "reformation" ever take place?
Why do you feel the need to make such an effort to gain a foothold in our political system? Just curious, as I've always felt that religion has no business in politics...
Peregrino
04-20-2010, 20:32
Alright guys - we're beating a dead horse. This thread has quit being educational and it was never very entertaining; therefore, IT IS NOW CLOSED.