View Full Version : C.A.R. System
Hey all,
Did a search and all I came up with was a very brief something about
C.A.R.s(center axis relock system) creator Paul Castle.
Have any of you or do any of you use or intend to use this system and what are your thoughts on it?
It seems to have a lot of bad rep but, like anything that has anything to do with guns and a mans ego I tend to take opinions with a grain of salt and stay open minded.
I attended one of Paul Castle's explosive breaching classes. He spent the first 4-5 hours talking about how great he was and about how many "secret units" he has trained and worked with. His explosive charges were small plastic boxes filled with gunpowder set off by det cord. Apparently he was working on selling them at Bragg and to SEALs.... not sure if that happened yet.
The first day was so unbearable that I didn't make it to the second day of class where the C.A.R. was to be demonstrated but he said it would revolutionize CQB. I'll just keep my sight picture instead of shooting from the hip.
If you want to hear cool stories about secret units and classified missions his class is probably money well spent.
Here's a link to his C.A.R. in action.
http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/car.html
Please remove if the link is inappropriate.
Derek
I tend to take opinions with a grain of salt and stay open minded.
Welcome to the site,,
So, give us your salty opinion?? Have you attended Paul's course and/or used the technique in active shootings?
His point about arm & elbow not being extended, but pulled in close to the body, makes sense. Stiff arm NRA is good for small bore, it punishes the wrists & elbows.
I'm pretty sure Massad Ayoob brought that from Israel in the late 60t's or early 70t's, along with their technique of holding their pistol sideways??
Given the real inconvenience of taking a broad side shot. I'm thinking, I'd rather put the hard-plate to the front.
I also think at under 10 feet,, the shooting order should be HHHHHHHHHH, reload, HHHHHHHHHH.
At that distance you don't need to aim around body armor.. Which kinda goes against my worries about the broadside shot.. YMMV
My $00.0002
I haven't attended nor used it in actual shootings, but I have visited his website already, but thanks for the link anyway.
I also was not aware of anyone named Massad Ayoob or his backround, though that should provide an interesting read.
What I posted for, was any info from people that would/should know if the system works or if it was plain bullshit because I try to keep on the up and up on shooting techniques and that type of thing, but I dislike spending tons of money for nothing.
When I did watch his videos though, when I saw him and his shooters go through targets I kept seeing the whole gun sideways thing go away and it seemed like they reverted back to "normal" position for firing the weapon. Not practicing what he preaches?
Just curious is all, and oh what does YMMV mean?
....Just curious is all, and oh what does YMMV mean?
Sigh.
Place YMMV in any search engine you like and hit "Search".
Also, do some research on similar letter groups used on the internet.
Kinda' that "Give a man a fish......." thing.
Pete
I have not been to any of his classes and this is the first I have heard of the C.A.R. system. I checked out his website and viewed the PDF with several photos of the systems stances and uses. IMO, many of them appear to be some standard CQB stances and stances taught in LE Firearms. There are some things I would have to see, however, to evaluate. There were some statements which I found interesting. For example, he emphasizes that the stances are based on a "Field interview" stance. Most of our LE Firearms training is based on this stance, but the first thing we try to teach our young officers is MOVE. In a situation where you would be in a field interview stance, we teach to react to the immediate threat, create distance, find cover and continue the fight. The main purpose of the field interview stance is to keep the firearm away from the suspect as much as possible. It is not a fighting stance. It is to give you that extra second or two of reaction time.
The PDF talks about left hand/right eye, right hand/left eye. From some of the photos, I am assuming this is designed for shooting from behind cover, versus using right hand/right eye for a right hand barricade and left/left for a left hand barricaded position. I tried a little experimentation and it appears using the opposite hand/eye combination places slightly more of the body outside cover than a same hand/eye combination. This appears to be because when you use the right hand to bring the sights to your left eye, and vice versa, it rotates your off shoulder forward, placing your upper body in a more squared off position relative to the cover.
I had a major problem with one of the "one handed " reload pictures shown. In the case of an injury and you only have one hand, use the sights on a boot heel or between your feet. The photo given showed placing the back of the grip in the pocket of your shoulder, muzzle pointed up, grasping the slide and pushing against your shoulder. This brings several visions of Murphy at his worst to mind. The muzzle is right beside your head, your shoulder is not that stable of a platform to push against and there are more efficient methods IMO.
The long gun with light firing positions are nothing new. Cradling your gun in the crook of the forearm while holding the light with that hand have been taught for some time. If necessary, you can jack a round in the chamber from this position. For some of the handgun positions shown though, I can see some of our more inexperienced officers eating the rear sight. It also shortens the sight radius, and on a handgun, that is already short enough.
The picture of the guy in the car, demostrating the left eye/right hand position, would be difficult to evaluate. From the driver side of the vehicle, he is already in a point reflex position, which has a high hit probability anyway.
For a CQB ready position wearing body armor, we teach holding the handgun about gut level, slightly off center to the strong side and canted about 45 degrees. This places the muzzle in a centered position, allowing the slide to clear the armor, and still giving a high probability of a hit if the need suddenly arose. It also gives a good retention position and allows use of the off hand for other things, like opening doors while still covering to the front.
As far as the demonstrated "Pistol Punch", I have a problem with that. Punching with the muzzle of a long gun is one thing. You still have good control of the long gun, especially if a sling is used. Not so with a handgun. It appears that if you extend the handgun into the body of a suspect, if he knows anything about combatives, you run a good risk of losing that handgun or creating a perfect scenario for a negligent discharge.
Like I said, I have not taken any of the classes, this is based on what the photos appear to depict. I will have to try some of the shooting positions next time I go to the range though to get a better evaluation.
Thank you for the in-depth reply and your thoughts on it. I am by no means an expert shooter but, I try to keep in touch with whats going on to stay as educated as possible on the subject.
I look forward to reading what you find on range.
dr. mabuse
03-08-2010, 00:02
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This is nothing new. Paul Poole was teaching this at Mott Lake in 1981!
This is nothing new. Paul Poole was teaching this at Mott Lake in 1981!
I went to SFARTAETC in '92 so I don't know what was taught in '81. I don't really remember anything that similar to this then though. It appears to me that using some of the stances and shooting positions, you would lose the stability of the position. If your arms are bent and the sight close to your eyes, the bone support seems like it would be gone and you would be muscling the gun, fighting the recoil. Then again there is the problem with the short sight radius. I haven't been to the range recently to try some of the positions, due to a recent injury, but I intend to go soon.
dr. mabuse
03-09-2010, 21:56
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That recoil is supposed to be supported(so the system says) by natural body angles, how the elbow works for instance it naturally bends back that way so it absorbs more recoil naturally going with the flow of the gun.
I've only been able to shoot some with the system, I was limited by the ranges rules so I'll have to wait to head out on a weekend for more progress with things where I will have a wider range of space, etc.
The only thing I can say that was odd was getting use to the positions when shooting, due to force of habit.
Anyway, thanks for the insightful replies.
ReefBlue
05-24-2010, 15:48
I've taken Paul's Class, as a civilian, and I've got the documentation to prove it if anyone really wanted to see.
My instructors consisted of a retired swat guy out of MD and an active PA State Trooper, both certified instructors in the system.
Speaking from a personal standpoint, it corrected a few problems I had. I've got super long arms. If I do a standard press-out with a handgun, it waved around a lot and would give me a lot of inconsistency. I also would get fatigued if I had to stay in that position for an extended duration.
Holding the pistol close to me corrected all of that right away.
As far as using cross dominant eye, I had a bad eye problem that I had surgery for in my teens, which reduced it from a bad problem to a manageable one, but it still exists, so I couldn't really use my left eye when I shoot with my strong side. I had to do without that unless I was shooting left handed and using my right eye.
The only thing was that I went through only the handgun portion and they didn't beat on us as a military class would tend to do. If you didn't get something right, you did it again without having to do 50 pushups.
The weapons retentions aspect of the training is great. The instructors said if you take nothing else away from the class, take the weapons retention portion.
Unfortunately, as a civilian now, training in this fashion is really difficult to find. As much as I want to, and as hard as I would work during the course, no one would take me in a tactical course and throw me into a team consisting of a bunch of LEOs or .mil personnel. So basically I have nothing to compare it to in terms of other 'systems', but I walked out of there with a lot of knowledge and new abilities.
So in closing, I found it informative and fun at the same time. And if anyone in the PA/MD/VA area needs a guy as a filler for training (I'll even be the bad guy), just let me know. I'll even dress the part if you don't mind obsolete BDUs.