View Full Version : Plane crashes into IRS building
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35460268/ns/us_news-life/
AUSTIN, Texas - A man apparently upset with the Internal Revenue Service set fire to his home, got into a small plane and crashed it Thursday into a multistory office building, authorities said.
At least two people were injured and a third was unaccounted for. The crash caused a fire and sent black smoke billowing from the seven-story Echelon Building.
Officials told The Associated Press that authorities were trying to determine if the pilot intentionally targeted nearby office space of the IRS. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was continuing.
Another official said authorities were pursuing reports that the pilot had a long-running dispute with the IRS.
The man was identified as Joseph Stack, officials confirmed to NBC News.
A senior law enforcement official told NBC's Pete Williams the saga began Thursday morning, when police received a domestic disturbance call at Stack's house. When they responded, they discovered that the man had lit a fire in his house and fled. They said he went to the Georgetown Municipal Airport about 30 miles north of the crash site, got into a small plane and took off.
A short time later, the plane crashed into the office building. Federal officials said they did not know whether the man crashed the plane intentionally, though they said it was a distinct possibility, the official told NBC.
As a precaution, the Colorado-based North American Aerospace Defense Command launched two F-16 aircraft from Houston's Ellington Field to patrol over the crash area.
The Echelon Building is next to a major highway in north Austin, and the crash started fires on several floors of the building.
Dozens of windows were blown out of the hulking black building and vehicles traveling on a nearby highway paused to look.
Authorities were conducting a roll call to try to account for all the workers who were in the building.
Two people were taken to a hospital, Austin Assistant Fire Chief Harry Evans said. The nature and severity of their injuries weren't immediately clear. A third person was unaccounted for, Evans said. It was not immediately known if the victims were from the plane or the office building.
His online diatribe
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0218102stack1.html
It was hosted here however the FBI already took it down.
http://www.embeddedart.com/
Dozer523
02-18-2010, 14:52
A terrorist is a terrorist; foreign or "domestic". They both threaten our way of life; what we sacrifice for, what many of us have shed blood for; and what some of us have died for.
Non Timebo Mala
How is this a terrorist attack?
Utah Bob
02-18-2010, 14:53
Looks like he got involved with one of those anti-tax groups years ago and has been paying for it. Takes no responsibility for himself.
A disturbed mind. Hopefully he's the only one that dies because of his actions.
How is this a terrorist attack?
I agree. I fail to see how this is a terrorist attack.
In my mind, there is a difference between a man pissed at the IRS and a terrorist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't terrorism more about ideology and a desire to "terrorize" a population or subset of a population? A personal grudge just doesn't strike me as terrorism.
How is this a terrorist attack?I agree. I fail to see how this is a terrorist attack.
In my mind, there is a difference between a man pissed at the IRS and a terrorist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't terrorism more about ideology and a desire to "terrorize" a population or subset of a population? A personal grudge just doesn't strike me as terrorism.If one plows through Mr. Stack's manifesto, the links to which are provided in post #3, one will find elements of an ideological argument against the American government.
Mr. Stack appeared to have reached the conclusion that "violence not only is the answer, but is the only answer." The question? How to make American "zombies wake up and revolt."
By my reading of this formulation, Mr. Stack sought to terrorize individuals working for the government as well as members of certain socio-economic classes.
My $0.02.
If one plows through Mr. Stack's manifesto, the links to which are provided in post #3, one will find elements of an ideological argument against the American government.
Mr. Stack appeared to have reached the conclusion that "violence not only is the answer, but is the only answer." The question? How to make American "zombies wake up and revolt."
By my reading of this formulation, Mr. Stack sought to terrorize individuals working for the government as well as members of certain socio-economic classes.
My $0.02.
After I made my initial post, I read through his manifesto. I agree with your assessment. Crazy guy.
He seems to blame everyone but himself for the mistakes he made. I hope no one was killed in Austin.
After I made my initial post, I read through his manifesto. I agree with your assessment. Crazy guy.
He seems to blame everyone but himself for the mistakes he made. I hope no one was killed in Austin.To be clear, I wasn't trying to sharp shoot you. IMO, your post contained a very important question about the implications of describing 'blaze of glory' acts of murder as acts of domestic terrorism.
In regards to Mr. Stack, I do think it is open to interpretation and further investigation the extent of his political motivation and intent.
His manifesto could be window dressing for other issues.:confused:
What else is on his HDD?
Did the events he says he experienced even take place?
Did he talk about politics with friends and associates or did he just complain endlessly about his problems?
Did he generally attribute to others the reasons for his own unhappiness?
I fail to see how this is a terrorist attack.
From the USDOJ-OJP's National Institute of Justice
The search for a universal, precise definition of terrorism has been challenging for researchers and practitioners alike. Different definitions exist across the Federal, international, and research communities.
Title 22 of the U.S. Code, Section 2656f(d) (U.S. Department of State, 2007) defines terrorism as “premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.”
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defines terrorism as “the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.”
Both definitions of terrorism share a common theme: the use of force intended to influence or instigate a course of action that furthers a political or social goal. In most cases, NIJ researchers adopt the FBI definition, which stresses methods over motivations and is generally accepted by law enforcement communities.
The NIJ web-site is a pretty interesting resource.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/crime/terrorism/welcome.htm
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I certainly think this is a terrorist attack. I wonder how the current military counter insurgency doctrine would handle this if it had jurisdiction. I want to be very careful not to sound as if I am sympathetic with this man, I am not and it makes me sick to have such madness on American soil. However, the doctrine would look at the stated grievances and not discount them out of hand right? I have read the note, and it is clear what his motives were. Should there be a cabinet level position advising the POTUS on this? What is this becomes a trend? How dangerous would it be to even give the impression of making concessions in the face of terrorism? Or how productive? This is just a thought exercise, and I believe whose jurisdiction it is to address this is that of the American people. I pray for the injured and hope there are no deaths.
So, was this one of those new "man caused disasters"?
armymom1228
02-18-2010, 16:06
I certainly think this is a terrorist attack. I wonder how the current military counter insurgency doctrine would handle this
Well my son ( who is AD) would offer you some tinfoil...but otherwise it was a ONE person who was mad at IRS caused situation. Contrary to some beliefs, we here in the US of A can grow our on particualar band of loonies on occasion. When we do, it sure gets 'interesting'.:eek::rolleyes:
YMMV
AM
here are his ramblings. (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/18/stack.letter.pdf)
edited to add: I see it as an act of revolt, not terrorism.
Dozer523
02-18-2010, 17:08
IMO, your post contained a very important question about the implications of describing 'blaze of glory' acts of murder as acts of domestic terrorism.
In regards to Mr. Stack, I do think it is open to interpretation and further investigation the extent of his political motivation and intent.
His manifesto could be window dressing for other issues What he did garnered the attention of the country. It was scary -- especially in light of the WTC. It seemed to have some political social objective. So, was it terrorism? Or, is it a wacko act?
And more importantly, what differentiates a terrorist from a wacko? Who gets to decide?
AngelsSix
02-18-2010, 17:41
So, was this one of those new "man caused disasters"?
Ha ha!! Love it!!:D
To be clear, I wasn't trying to sharp shoot you. IMO, your post contained a very important question about the implications of describing 'blaze of glory' acts of murder as acts of domestic terrorism.
In regards to Mr. Stack, I do think it is open to interpretation and further investigation the extent of his political motivation and intent.
His manifesto could be window dressing for other issues.:confused:
What else is on his HDD?
Did the events he says he experienced even take place?
Did he talk about politics with friends and associates or did he just complain endlessly about his problems?
Did he generally attribute to others the reasons for his own unhappiness?
No worries, I was guilty of typing before reading. After reading his manifesto, suicide note or what have you - I can certainly see how a case might be made for terrorism.
I think you're correct that we need to learn more about him and his history. Perhaps he just generally sucked at dealing with life and the IRS issues made him snap. Or, on the other hand, perhaps his act was indeed intended not only to take his life and get back at the IRS - but also also to send a political message.
This will be interesting to follow...
Utah Bob
02-18-2010, 21:55
I think if he had mailed a pipe bomb to the IRS instead of crashing his plane he would have been labeled a domestic terrorist immediately.
I think if he had mailed a pipe bomb to the IRS instead of crashing his plane he would have been labeled a domestic terrorist immediately.
Or maybe just "Guilty as sin, free as a bird".
LongWire
02-19-2010, 03:11
Or maybe just "Guilty as sin, free as a bird".
.......and this Bird You Can Not Change..............
Was Joe Stack a Marxist? The last sentences of his web post:
Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.
The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.
There is much to consider in Mr. Stack's manifesto and one man revolutionary act. Just a few months ago the members of this site were concerned with tea parties, blatant political corruption, and nonexistent representation with regard to the bailout; and let’s not forget the Director of Homeland Security, who was interested in securing the ability to confiscate firearms from law abiding citizens like you; remember the thread pertaining to veterans as home grown terrorist?
Do you think we're crazy too?
Quickly branding Mr. Stack a flake redirects the conversation. The dialogue is no longer about the ruling elite and the manipulation of a grossly unfair tax code; it’s about some crazy guy with a crazy idea that America isn’t fair and just for all, and thats real crazy!!!
Rest in Peace Mr. Stack, but you died in vain.
After reading his manifesto, suicide note or what have you - I can certainly see how a case might be made for terrorism.
How did we label Ted Kaczinski and Timothy McVeigh for acting upon their 'grievances' as they did? ;)
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Dozer523
02-19-2010, 11:19
There is much to consider in Mr. Stack's manifesto . . .
Quickly branding Mr. Stack a flake redirects the conversation. The dialogue is no longer about the ruling elite and the manipulation of a grossly unfair tax code; it’s about some crazy guy with a crazy idea that America isn’t fair and just for all, and thats real crazy!!!
Rest in Peace Mr. Stack, but you died in vain.
I'm tracking. The guy has been labeled a terrorist and a nut and somewhere someone has got to be calling him a criminal. My concern here is the noun nomenclature "Terrorist" and when it comes to gitmo the taliban how quickly we assign "Terrorist" to anyone who acts in anyway contrary to American law and or American interests.
What is the definition of terrorism?
This article is a little dated but offers a comparison based on different agencies http://www.cdi.org/friendlyversion/printversion.cfm?documentID=1564
And even though few will like the messenger of this it is worth a read (if for no other reason then "know your enemy") http://www.aclu.org/national-security/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-domestic-terrorism.
Burn in hell Mr Stack, but you're pathetic, and an incompetent murderer. (No virgins for you!)
Team Sergeant
02-19-2010, 11:49
So, was this one of those new "man caused disasters"?
More like lunatic, coward, bottom feeder or idiot caused disasters.
In considering the event discussed here, perhaps the general environment is a factor.
LINK (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2010/only_21_say_u_s_government_has_consent_of_the_gove rned)
Excerpt from Rasmussen Reports:
The founding document of the United States, the Declaration of Independence, states that governments derive “their just powers from the consent of the governed.” Today, however, just 21% of voters nationwide believe that the federal government enjoys the consent of the governed.
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 61% disagree and say the government does not have the necessary consent. Eighteen percent (18%) of voters are not sure.
How did we label Ted Kaczinski and Timothy McVeigh for acting upon their 'grievances' as they did? ;)
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
IIRC, they were both considered terrorists by the FBI.
I'm really torn on this guy though. Reading his diatribe, he did have some valid points (such as the complexity of the tax code, among others). On the other hand, other statements he made were likely written while wearing a tinfoil hat.
I think its a slippery slope to cast too wide a net with the terrorism moniker. Lower the threshold, and suddenly the ridiculous DHS report from last Spring might carry weight in the eyes of some. Same deal with Tea Party folks - or those of us who defend the second amendment.
No easy answers when it comes to defining terrorism. Acts committed by followers of radical Islam are definitely terrorism in my mind. But, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I consider the folks that burn down houses in the name of protecting "the environment" to be terrorists - yet I'm sure there are some that quietly agree with their tactics.
There is much to consider in Mr. Stack's manifesto and one man revolutionary act. Just a few months ago the members of this site were concerned with tea parties, blatant political corruption, and nonexistent representation with regard to the bailout; and let’s not forget the Director of Homeland Security, who was interested in securing the ability to confiscate firearms from law abiding citizens like you; remember the thread pertaining to veterans as home grown terrorist?
Do you think we're crazy too?
Quickly branding Mr. Stack a flake redirects the conversation. The dialogue is no longer about the ruling elite and the manipulation of a grossly unfair tax code; it’s about some crazy guy with a crazy idea that America isn’t fair and just for all, and thats real crazy!!!
Rest in Peace Mr. Stack, but you died in vain.
Aside from the part of Stark setting his house ablaze with his wife and kid in it....I tend to agree with many of Stacks grievances, I can even understand his motivation or the motivation of the guy who bulldozed his house. Our government officials don't serve the people they serve themselves. They run scams like Cap'n Trade, Health care reform, Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid just to name a few. They operate a tax code that few if any can figure out. We have creeps like Rangel and Geitner who cheat and the IRS looks the other way, whereas they will run Average Joe through the mill and confiscate everything he owns. They can't seal the Southern Border. They have been allowed to run the economy into the sewer. And we have a President who has said that if he doesn't get his way, he'll just bypass the checks and balances through executive order.
Our government is a absolute shambles, these days it appears to me that the wants of a powerful few negate the wishes of the majority. And in that sense I don't see him as a loon, more so a disenfranchised citizen who reached the end of his rope.
Your end of the rope could be gun confiscation, confiscation of your 401k/IRA account, maybe EPA regulations that adversely effect your livelihood, maybe take away your kids because they are Home Schooled or the finality that all that money you paid into Social Security has evaporated into thin air! Will you just sit by and accept it?
Crazy is a College Professor who guns down her associates because she was passed over for promotion.
dr. mabuse
02-19-2010, 20:34
*
armymom1228
02-19-2010, 20:41
Speaking of the IRS, my brother was one of the first people involved in that asbestosis lawsuit back in the '70's.
IIRC, he and several others sued and won with the help of a young lawyer named Walter Umphrey.
Mysteriously, most if not all of the families involved got an invitation letter from the IRS for an audit, roughly around the same time.
Just a coincidence.:munchin
It was pointed out to me, that even Glenn Beck won't trash the IRS.
That agency has too much power with too little oversight. I can honestly see why someone would be driven to, what they thought, was an act of civil disobedience.
It was pointed out to me, that even Glenn Beck won't trash the IRS.
That agency has too much power with too little oversight. I can honestly see why someone would be driven to, what they thought, was an act of civil disobedience.
Anytime I have had the honor of speaking to the IRS they have been friendly and helpful. I have a feeling that in many of the nasty cases someone has ignored or drug things out......like my wife repeatedly ignoring an IRS Past Due notice on something she owed before we were married.
The friendly IRS Lady told me I was lucky I found it and called 'That Day' because it was on it's way to the nasty folks.
There is good and bad in everything. And sometimes you bring upon yourself. Then again when you see Charlie Rangel and crew get a free pass, sometimes repeatedly and then you get your nuts put in the vise for paultry pocket change....that's just wrong!
Better yet, if any of us ran a business like Charlie and Crew run the Government scams, we would be neighbors with Madoff in short order.
GratefulCitizen
02-19-2010, 22:46
Didn't read the guy's diatribe.
Actions speak louder than words.
Just some loser with a victim mentality who needed somebody to blame for his failures.
It's a shame others had to pay the price for his narcissistic rage.
The guy wasn't interested in making a difference, he was interested in making a mark.
Now he's just ex-human graffiti.
Won't ever read his crap.
Won't speak or type his name.
May he be forgotten.
How did we label Ted Kaczinski and Timothy McVeigh for acting upon their 'grievances' as they did? ;)
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Well, you can bomb the NYC police dept, the US Capital Building, the Pentagon, and become a tenured professor like Bill Ayers. It's ok if you're a Marxist. ;)
I doubt Mr. Ayers was victimized at the age of 16 with psychological torture techniques funded by the government while attending Harvard as a child prodigy. They trashed a great mind in the process.
For KA considerable amount of credible circumstantial evidence suggests that Theodore Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber, participated in CIA-sponsored MK-ULTRA experiments conducted at Harvard University from the fall of 1959 through the spring of 1962.[47] During World War II, Henry Murray, the lead researcher in the Harvard experiments, served with the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), which was a forerunner of the CIA. Murray applied for a grant funded by the United States Navy, and his Harvard stress experiments strongly resembled those run by the OSS.[47] Beginning at the age of sixteen, Kaczynski participated along with twenty-one other undergraduate students in the Harvard experiments, which have been described as "disturbing" and "ethically indefensible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mkultra