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deepblack 18x
02-17-2010, 10:24
I was over on MilitaryAthlete.com and on his home page, he has the following posted.
I was told recently by an Operator that steroid use is common in the special forces community.

Is it? Do you use or have you used steroids, HGH, etc.? If so, how do they help? How do you use them (pre-deployment, in cycles, all the time, etc.)

Where do you get them? How much do they cost? Side effects?

Do you use any other supplements (speed, stimulants?) If so, when and for what?

On my honor I'll keep your confidence.

I'm genuinely curious.

In my recruiting station there is a recruiter with a selection date and I suspect he is on steroids. I have never used steroids, I was however exposed to a community where steroids were used a lot. I played a season of baseball in the Dominican Summer League, where freshly signed free agents play in a development league. Many of the players were on steroid cycles or used them to recover from injury.

I was just curious to how prevalent steroid use is in your community. Is the Army doing anything to keep their soldiers from doing so?

DB

Buffalobob
02-17-2010, 11:41
February, 1975, I walked out of the building to my blue Datzun 260 Z, cranked it up and headed north out of Mobile to Birmingham. After spending the evening with my GF, I headed on toward home. Rolling about 90 to 100 mph at 3:00 in the morning east of Oneota and about a mile short of Tait's gap, I came to a long right hand curve. Eased back on the pedal and let it go through at about 80 mph until past the apex. Pushed it back to the floor and suddenly a big ole hound dog rose up right out of the middle of the road where he was sleeping. Not much to do but keep the pedal in the carpet and go over him. The Z lifted up pretty bad but stayed lined up on the road and I eased up and let it coast to a stop. Sat there listening to the engine and watching the gauges fro a few minutes. Finally got out to check the lights and see if fluid was dripping from the engine anywhere. Once I determined the car was OK I decided to go back and make sure the dog was actually dead and finish the job if need be. Drove back up the road and there was no dog, just blood and goo in the road. Sat there thinking about it for a while and finally put the car back in gear and turned it around. As I wound the Z back up to speed, I got to wondering how a dog that stupid had lived long enough to get that big.

Perhaps he was on steroids.

Utah Bob
02-17-2010, 12:52
February, 1975, I walked out of the building to my blue Datzun 260 Z, cranked it up and headed north out of Mobile to Birmingham. After spending the evening with my GF, I headed on toward home. Rolling about 90 to 100 mph at 3:00 in the morning east of Oneota and about a mile short of Tait's gap, I came to a long right hand curve. Eased back on the pedal and let it go through at about 80 mph until past the apex. Pushed it back to the floor and suddenly a big ole hound dog rose up right out of the middle of the road where he was sleeping. Not much to do but keep the pedal in the carpet and go over him. The Z lifted up pretty bad but stayed lined up on the road and I eased up and let it coast to a stop. Sat there listening to the engine and watching the gauges fro a few minutes. Finally got out to check the lights and see if fluid was dripping from the engine anywhere. Once I determined the car was OK I decided to go back and make sure the dog was actually dead and finish the job if need be. Drove back up the road and there was no dog, just blood and goo in the road. Sat there thinking about it for a while and finally put the car back in gear and turned it around. As I wound the Z back up to speed, I got to wondering how a dog that stupid had lived long enough to get that big.

Perhaps he was on steroids.

Maybe it wasn't a dog. Maybe it was an "Operator".:D

C0B2A
02-17-2010, 13:36
Or a SERE student just got to it before you did :p

koz
02-17-2010, 16:25
In my recruiting station there is a recruiter with a selection date and I suspect he is on steroids. I have never used steroids, I was however exposed to a community where steroids were used a lot. I played a season of baseball in the Dominican Summer League, where freshly signed free agents play in a development league. Many of the players were on steroid cycles or used them to recover from injury.

DB

First - many times a guy is on steroids, he may be great at short bursts (2 mi or even a 12miler). But usually the long term endurance is pretty bad. When I went to selection, there were some guys who showed up (I believe they were juicing) that were complete studs. It should have been a breeze for them. A week and a half later, they VW'd and left a nice pile of moleskin, motrin, and foot powder. They didn't have the juice to keep going.

In some DA centered units there are guys who "openly" used steroids. I don't know if they were tested or how they pissed clean if they were tested. A long range patrol is not great for a guy like this. Their body will suffer after day 3/4, by day 10 he's dead weight. A guy on my team was like this - He'd sling weights around like feathers, but he was pretty much worthless after a few days in the field.

Another thing about using steroids for injury recovery. From my very limited medical knowledge, steroids help with reduction of inflammation and swelling. This makes things feel better but doesn't help it in the long run. An "Operator":rolleyes: doesn't have an off-season to recover from seasonal injuries.

I think you'll find steroids everywhere you go. But IMO, it's not any more used in SF than any other military unit.

koz
02-17-2010, 19:38
I'm going to revise what I said about use of medical steroids, like I said I have very limited medical knowledge - hey I'm an 18B...

A doc here PM'd me this about medical steroids.



Steroids impact the adrenal glands. The adrenals make adrenalin/epinepherin to support fight or flight responses. Taking exogenous steroids, pills etc., supress normal adrenal function. With that said, the adrenals need help for up to six months from the last dose of exogenous steroids. This is, in part, why those folks just don't do so well. Patients that came to me for surgery after steroids up to six months out, got several doses of steroids before, during and after surgery.

deepblack 18x
02-17-2010, 20:09
Koz, thanks for the insight. Just to clarify in no way am I considering taking steroids. If I was going to take them I would have done so to better my baseball career.

DB

mark46th
02-18-2010, 16:45
Glad he didn't ask about amphetamines.

Dozer523
02-18-2010, 16:49
February, 1975, . . . I got to wondering how a dog that stupid had lived long enough to get that big.

Perhaps he was on steroids. I love a well told story with a moral. Nice one. Read and heed.

caveman
02-18-2010, 18:07
I've made some buddies at 1/75 here in Savannah who admit to using steroids during deployments.

craigepo
02-18-2010, 18:59
I've made some buddies at 1/75 here in Savannah who admit to using steroids during deployments.

Great. 'Roid rage + live ammo

Steroid stallions were in style in the late 80's and early 90's. I don't remember seeing a single one making it through either Ranger school or SFAS. I distinctly remember one quitting in the middle of that big-assed swamp in Eglin AFB, telling the RI to get him a truck or a chopper to come pick him up. RI's reply "How the hell are we going to get a truck or chopper in here?"

Surgicalcric
02-18-2010, 19:27
Great. 'Roid rage + live ammo

Steroid stallions were in style in the late 80's and early 90's. I don't remember seeing a single one making it through either Ranger school or SFAS...

Oh here we go again...

There are more uses for anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) than just getting big; not all those who take them have grande dreams of being Mr Olympia. Some guys take them while recovering from musculo-skeletal injuries, for anti-aging effects, some for recovery after workouts, and then there are those who take them to become larger... Other than the above, which include medical uses, there are a host of conditions AAS's are used to treat which are too many to list here.

Also, not everyone who takes AAS's have "roid-rage." Its a product of taking them improperly. I liken it to mean drunks and alcohol...

The poor endurance issue (long patrols, SFAS/Ranger schools drops) stems not from AAS use but from from the training schedule/individual's focus in training. Not every guy who is Arnold-esque and cant run/ruck is on AAS's and likewise there are plenty of guys who are taking AAS's, who dont look like Arnold, and who compete in Ironman/Triathlons.

As for them being unlawful, they are unlawful, not because of the detrimental effects they can have on the body if taken improperly (if that were the case tylenol and aspirin would be off the shelf as well) but as a direct result of Ben Johnson's testing positive for them during the 1988 Olympics after he set the record in the 100m sprint. During testimony before Congress, the American Medical Association (AMA), Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as well as the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) all argued against listing AAS's as controlled substances. They cited the fact that use of AAS'S do not lead to the physical or psychological dependence required for such scheduling under the Controlled Substance Act. Congress still got what they wanted...

Nevertheless, they are unlawful and should not be taken without a prescription from your doctor and under medical supervision.

Some reading on the subject would clear up many of the misconceptions about AAS, their uses, and those who use them... ;)


Koz: The "medical steroids" (Glucocorticoids) you referenced (and later posted a PM about) arent the same as AAS's. Different structure, different use, effects, etc...

Dragbag036
02-18-2010, 19:58
Have you guys ever watched the Documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster". A somewhat insightful film about steroids. There are various sites to watch this for free.

http://www.moviejock.com/bigger-stronger-faster-2008-t-1375.html

I have spoken with many sports Docs on the subject and many have stated and fill the way Cric does. In some cases it has more to do with FDA and morals.

D

craigepo
02-18-2010, 21:40
One of my high school friends was a great running back(graduated 1987). He was about 6' tall, and his senior year weighed approx 230 lbs. He benched approx 300lbs, and was squatting close to 500 lbs. Took steroids like crazy---serious full-body acne. He ran over other high school kids like a freight train. He walked-on at the university of arkansas as a fullback. Didn't make it long; his muscles were stronger than his joints. When he tried to bull through a Division I defensive line, he exploded a knee.

I arrived at 2/75 in early 1989. At that time, Madigan Army hospital was giving "d-bol" to guys in our battalion, doing some kind of steroid study. My first breakfast in the chow hall, I (19-year-old E-2) was thrown across the chow hall by a roid-raging E-6 who was participating in this study. (Seemed he wanted a glass of orange juice in a hurry). Another guy who participated in the study had his elbow bone begin growing. Big muscles, and a left elbow bone that dropped about two inches farther than it should have.

During the Q-course, a friend that I worked out with decided to do "just 1 cycle" (again dynabol). Prior to this, we were curling 30lb dumbbells during workouts. Four weeks later, he was doing bicep curls with 65lb dumbbells. During his cycle, his running went to crap. Looked pretty muscular when he was falling out of the runs, though.

As we sat in one of our 18b classes during that time, he was sitting next to myself and some friends. I remember him turning to me and saying "Look at that fucking instructor. I'm going to fucking kill him." My friends and I asked him why, (of course there was no reason for this outburst) and it was clear he was raging. Thereafter, he bolo'ed the 18Bcourse.(got off the roids and passed later).

Last year, a friend of mine buried his brother, a bodybuilder. Seems the brother had been buying steroids out of mexico. He became septic, and died of a super-infection.

Of course, everybody remembers the demise of Lyle Alzado.

I realize there is a medical reason for anabolic steroids. Likewise, there is a medical reason for the existence of cocaine. Nobody argues the medical benefits, it is the abuse of the substances that is a problem.

I'm sure that some medical experts would disagree with my observations(my spouse, an emergency medicine physician, does not). I worry that people hear the term "performance-enhancing" and think that it is a type of Underdog Super Energy pill. My observations, all of guys who used the steroids to get bigger, would lead to the opposite conclusion: that guys who take steroids(at least the old dynabol type)get big so quickly that they decrease their endurance abilities. Moreover, the side-effects which I have personally observed are horrible.

My apologies for the rant.

Surgicalcric
02-18-2010, 23:11
None said there are not side effects to their use which increase exponentially when they are abused, not taken as directed or outside of their usefulness.

...During the Q-course, a friend that I worked out with decided to do "just 1 cycle" ...his running went to crap...

Again I think you are confusing the cause and effects. The effect being "his running went to crap" but the cause wasnt that he was taking a cycle. It was that his focus in training shifted away from cardio (running) so he could put on size. It is the inverse of someone wanting to get smaller so they spend more time on cardio and less time lifting heavy and in the end will give up some strength in the process...

...As we sat in one of our 18b classes during that time...I'm going to fucking kill him." ...and it was clear he was raging...

No arguments that it sounds as if he was raging. Generally speaking roid rage is more commonly an issue as the person is coming off cycle and isnt utilizing an anti-estrogen. The issue here is that during the cycle the body stops producing testosterone on its own and once off cycle it takes a while for the body to start producing test again. During this time estrogen in the body is at a higher than normal level and causes severe mood swings...roid-rage.

Last year, a friend of mine buried his brother, a bodybuilder. Seems the brother had been buying steroids out of mexico. He became septic, and died of a super-infection...

It wasnt the steroids that killed him but the infection which he contracted from stuff he bought from Mexico. Same thing could have happened if he was buying Viagra from Mexico.

...Of course, everybody remembers the demise of Lyle Alzado...

Whose death from brain cancer was not linked to the use of AAS says his doctors. There are quite a few people who would like everyone to believe otherwise though. Still there is no evidence linking the two together.

...I realize there is a medical reason for anabolic steroids. Likewise, there is a medical reason for the existence of cocaine. Nobody argues the medical benefits, it is the abuse of the substances that is a problem...

Apples and oranges... Topical anesthesia is the only real use today, medicinally, for Cocaine.

...My observations, all of guys who used the steroids to get bigger, would lead to the opposite conclusion: that guys who take steroids(at least the old dynabol type)get big so quickly that they decrease their endurance abilities. Moreover, the side-effects which I have personally observed are horrible...

Not everyone who takes AAS do so to get bigger.

Again, to make substantial gains in size endurance has to be sacrificed (meaning they stop or at the very least cut back significantly on cardio.) As a person puts on muscle mass/weight (the desired effect for these guys) it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain the same pace (running, biking, swimming, etc) as prior to the cycle because of the decrease in cardio. Again, this comes down to training goals, not the AAS's themselves as the cause of the degradation in endurance.

I know some guys back home (both LEO (yes police officers) and FF) who cycle on and off often. Most of them are more concerned with performance than size and who take them for the purposes listed in my earlier post. To add, a couple of them are endurance athletes...

Personally, I cycled for 4 years during high school (84-89) and one year in college to become stronger and faster...not bigger. I again cycled (under the direct supervision -and by prescription- of a sports med doc in Pinehurst, NC) while I was recovering from a shoulder injury in the SFQC. I havent had any side effects from them. Then again I never abused them, took them correctly, and utilized post-cycle therapy.

As with most things in life a person's opinions are often shaped by their experiences. It is obvious that we have had very different experiences...

As always, YMMV.

Crip

Just so everyone is clear, AAS (Schedule III drug) are unlawful to possess without a prescription from a MD. It is a federal felony offense and is punishable by jail time. I am not condoning the use or possession of AAS without the express consent of a medical doctor for the treatment of an illness of injury...

99meters
02-19-2010, 15:54
Again I think you are confusing the cause and effects. The effect being "his running went to crap" but the cause wasnt that he was taking a cycle. It was that his focus in training shifted away from cardio (running) so he could put on size. It is the inverse of someone wanting to get smaller so they spend more time on cardio and less time lifting heavy and in the end will give up some strength in the process...

The above is very true. Most people that go on a cycle decide to judge the effectiveness of a steroid by hitting the weightroom. Often times they get stuck in that mode because the results are positive and are easly measureable.
However, there is research that suggest steroids can affect the functioning of muscle fibre type (cause slow twitch fibres to behave like fast twitch fibres). This would affect endurance. Also, it is relatively easy for faster twitching fibres to become like slow twitch fibres with prolonged low intensity training. Steroids are believed to delay this process. This again can affect endurance.
The bottom line is this....steroids allows an individual to overtrain and still recover. Its no magic pill, it allows you to work harder than the next man who is trying to do it natural. The problem with anabolic steroids (for cardi athletes) is it is very hard to gain an increase in strength and power without gains in lean muscle mass (weight). This becomes a problem when you have to lift you center of mass on each stride for a 5k or 10k run. Most athletes in this group use other performance enhancement drugs PEDS like epo (AIDS medication).
That being said, I know/knew a few sprinters sub 10.12 100m that were on steroids and could still run sub 4:50 miles and do 3 miles in under 17 mins. As Surgicalcric said, it depends on what you focus on.

kgoerz
02-19-2010, 17:08
They should test for it.
I don't want anyone on my Team who needs or feels the need to take performing enhancing drugs in order to excel. You want someone excelling in Combat training who is taking Steroids?? What happens when he is deployed and doesn't have them??
If he can't do it with his natural Heart, Motivation and commitment. Then he should be sent packing.

BrianH
02-23-2010, 12:02
They should test for it.
I don't want anyone on my Team who needs or feels the need to take performing enhancing drugs in order to excel. You want someone excelling in Combat training who is taking Steroids?? What happens when he is deployed and doesn't have them??
If he can't do it with his natural Heart, Motivation and commitment. Then he should be sent packing.
The same thing could be said for night vision, FLIR, JDAM, ACOG, EoTech, GPS, or any other technological performance enhancing product.

Why would you throw a guy off the team who has decided to further enhance his natural abilities to perform his job? Like Cric stated earlier, the short and long term effects of AAS are grossly overstated for political and athletic reasons, mostly involving cheating. It is banned simply because it DOES make people stronger and faster. War isn't an activity that falls under those guidelines. If a guy on my team feels the desire to (responsibly) take a substance that would allow him to more easily carry wounded teammates off the battlefield, I am not going to stop him.

Too many people drank the BALCO Kool-Aid.

Koa18B
03-26-2010, 14:56
The same thing could be said for night vision, FLIR, JDAM, ACOG, EoTech, GPS, or any other technological performance enhancing product.

Why would you throw a guy off the team who has decided to further enhance his natural abilities to perform his job? Like Cric stated earlier, the short and long term effects of AAS are grossly overstated for political and athletic reasons, mostly involving cheating. It is banned simply because it DOES make people stronger and faster. War isn't an activity that falls under those guidelines. If a guy on my team feels the desire to (responsibly) take a substance that would allow him to more easily carry wounded teammates off the battlefield, I am not going to stop him.

Too many people drank the BALCO Kool-Aid.

I agree in some aspects with what you said. Having recently went through the Q. I am not on a team yet so I still have yet to deal with certain aspects of being an 18B however, FLIR, GPS, and EoTech's have not killed someone due to irresponsible usage (well other then the enemy).

I have heard and seen team mates of mine experiment with everything from AAS to plain OTC Creatine and other "Supplement's." IMO it makes little to no difference as guys that twice my size and are big "PT Studs" when it comes to that run or forced marches they have always been lacking in the stamina area.

Triman19
03-26-2010, 18:51
Just a quick comment on this topic. In the triathlon community steriod use is pretty big. I have completed twenty one races (not that a certain number matters, many people have done hundereds more) but one trait that I have repeatedly seen with different bodie shapes, sizes ect is that during the race many of these people honestly die out. Of course I do not know every person who uses, but I do train with guys weekly who do. They claim stronger sprint abilities, faster recovery and better metabolism to name a few benefits. However, their true endurance seems to be taking a hit. Maybe I am wrong or misguided, but I was under the impression that EPO actually gives the "endurance athlete" that extra push? I will do some research and see what I can find out.
I respect and see both sides of the issue. I guess I would rather be tall and skinny and work with the talents God gave me than try to change my body to a thick lifters build. That is why I have chosen to not use, although it is very tempting to use when you get beat by peolpe who do not train as hard as I do.
I think a common misconception by those who do not know is that an "SF guy" does not necessarily look a certain way, i.e. John Rambo. I have personnally been put down by an SF guy who had to have been about fifty five years of age and weighed much more than me. Funny thing, he just worked his butt off his entire career and it got him the same place as some people who choose to use.
To each his own I suppose. Have a great weekend and be safe.

God Bless

WarriorDiplomat
07-01-2010, 20:28
First - many times a guy is on steroids, he may be great at short bursts (2 mi or even a 12miler). But usually the long term endurance is pretty bad. When I went to selection, there were some guys who showed up (I believe they were juicing) that were complete studs. It should have been a breeze for them. A week and a half later, they VW'd and left a nice pile of moleskin, motrin, and foot powder. They didn't have the juice to keep going.

In some DA centered units there are guys who "openly" used steroids. I don't know if they were tested or how they pissed clean if they were tested. A long range patrol is not great for a guy like this. Their body will suffer after day 3/4, by day 10 he's dead weight. A guy on my team was like this - He'd sling weights around like feathers, but he was pretty much worthless after a few days in the field.

Another thing about using steroids for injury recovery. From my very limited medical knowledge, steroids help with reduction of inflammation and swelling. This makes things feel better but doesn't help it in the long run. An "Operator":rolleyes: doesn't have an off-season to recover from seasonal injuries.

I think you'll find steroids everywhere you go. But IMO, it's not any more used in SF than any other military unit.

Easy the Army rarely ever tests for them it is an expensive tests that the Army must send off to the Olympic testing facility at about 150$ a pop. I am 220 lb and have never seen so many 22 yr olds that dwarf me in the SF and regular army gyms and very young guys lifting absurd weights consistently. These guys usually use juice overseas and what you see quite common is a guy who damages his connective tissue which gains strength at roughly 1/3 the rate of muscle by lifting to his juiced up muscle potential and tearing the skeletal muscle like Ligaments and tendons

fng13
07-02-2010, 12:47
Easy the Army rarely ever tests for them it is an expensive tests that the Army must send off to the Olympic testing facility at about 150$ a pop. I am 220 lb and have never seen so many 22 yr olds that dwarf me in the SF and regular army gyms and very young guys lifting absurd weights consistently. These guys usually use juice overseas and what you see quite common is a guy who damages his connective tissue which gains strength at roughly 1/3 the rate of muscle by lifting to his juiced up muscle potential and tearing the skeletal muscle like Ligaments and tendons

That is a problem with training routine not with the use of steroids. I could do the same thing without ever taking "Juice."

Debo
08-23-2010, 19:43
They should test for it.
I don't want anyone on my Team who needs or feels the need to take performing enhancing drugs in order to excel. You want someone excelling in Combat training who is taking Steroids?? What happens when he is deployed and doesn't have them??
If he can't do it with his natural Heart, Motivation and commitment. Then he should be sent packing.


+1. They are a crutch. Get out, do some hardwork and quit looking for shortcuts.

D.

doctom54
08-23-2010, 20:34
Another thing about using steroids for injury recovery. From my very limited medical knowledge, steroids help with reduction of inflammation and swelling. This makes things feel better but doesn't help it in the long run. An "Operator":rolleyes: doesn't have an off-season to recover from seasonal injuries.

I think you'll find steroids everywhere you go. But IMO, it's not any more used in SF than any other military unit.

There are two general groups of steroids
Catabolic steroids which reduce inflammation and shut down reactions. Cortisone is an example. They are used a lot in the practice of medicine and are very good for allergic reactions or some things such as Rheumatoid arthritis (a simplification but fairly accurate)
Anabolic steroids build up muscle and speed recovery. Testosterone is one another is decadurabinol. These are used a lot less in medicine.
There are lots of side effects with prolonged use of either.
Both are very effective when used correctly.

James Clifton
08-25-2010, 08:22
Guys,
I'm not military,have a lot of friends that are & I'm an old Army brat! I'm 66 & been in the "Iron Game "for quite awhile.I've had a number of friends get screwed up with ROIDS...a few have died.
Here is my take on Roids....they make you bigger,faster,more aggressive & build up thr EGO! Negs ARE...liver,bone,blood & heart problems & they can kill you.
So... I present some questions ....YOU juice & DON'T make it to be a RANGER....what good was taking it?? What if..... you take it & it really screws you up later? Think about it... I know if it was me & I was trying to make it,been strutting my stuff around the average guys & THEN having them blow by me on the march while I was on the ground puking & quitting...it would affect me for the rest of my life!!
Jim

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-26-2010, 22:02
Yes they make folks bigger, and stronger. As stated most of us made long hard careers without it. Additionally our joints are stressed enough with out the weakening affect of some steroids, and the Medics should be aware of the possibly of some organ problems.

And any time a team has to endure "ROID RAGE" it had better be worth it. give the SOB all the commo gear.