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ParkerB
02-16-2010, 09:50
Hello

I searched the forum for threads that answered my questions, but I could not find anything. 1) I am wondering why there is an age minimum of twenty to enlist under an 18X contract. I understand that the Army wants an ODA to be comprised of very mature people, however other SOF units such as the Navy SEALs or Rangers have no such age minimum. 2) Are there exceptions to the age minimum? In Dick Couch's book Chosen Soldier, he points out that there are a few people at the SFQC who are younger than twenty. I understand that the book documented a 2004 training class, so the age requirements could have changed since then. 3) Is a person's age not relevant if they are already in the Army? According to the Special Operations Recruiting Battalion's Special Forces page, the Army is accepting PFC's for SFAS. For instance, if I were to enlist as an infantryman with an airborne contract, would I be able to attend SFAS after completion of OSUT and airborne school as an eighteen year old?

Thanks, and I apologize if any of these questions have already been answered in other threads.

PRB
02-16-2010, 10:56
20 is too young in my opinion. But that is to enter the pipeline so the soldier will be 22/23 upon grad in most cases.
The average in my Company in 1994 was 32 years old and I suspect that was pretty normal across the board.
Really don't care what Seals do and I could comment but wont about levels of maturity in other units.
Mature and seasoned is what SF is about as it comes down to decision making.

lksteve
02-16-2010, 11:19
II am wondering why there is an age minimum of twenty to enlist under an 18X contract. I understand that the Army wants an ODA to be comprised of very mature people, however other SOF units such as the Navy SEALs or Rangers have no such age minimum. There is a difference in the nature of missions undertaken by SEALs, Rangers and SF...I would not want to be on an ODA as a twenty-year old...at least, not on the ODA I initially served on...

Utah Bob
02-16-2010, 12:51
Like Steve said, there is a big difference in the mission. You should do some more reading on exactly what Special Forces does. The job requires a level of stability, professionalism, and maturity not required in other units.

greenberetTFS
02-16-2010, 13:12
Like Steve said, there is a big difference in the mission. You should do some more reading on exactly what Special Forces does. The job requires a level of stability, professionalism, and maturity not required in other units.

I completely agree with UB........ :) I was 17 when I got my wings,but 24 when I earned my beret.........;)

Big Teddy :munchin

LJ19
02-16-2010, 18:22
There is a difference in the nature of missions undertaken by SEALs, Rangers and SF...I would not want to be on an ODA as a twenty-year old...at least, not on the ODA I initially served on...

Could you expand upon why this is ?

Peregrino
02-16-2010, 18:30
BLUF - Because experience has proven that soldiers younger than 21 have a lower success rate in every category from accession through to retention. Statistically, they're not worth the investment. We've tried accessing younger soldiers/recruits several times over the last 35 years and the results have been verified every time.

MN_student
02-16-2010, 18:44
I was reading another thread about candidates that were too old, I thought the message coming across was that SF now is a young mans game - planning to start the pipeline for early twenty somethings and have plenty of team time, but from what you're saying those that start younger don't make it? /they don't stick around on a team?

Scimitar
02-16-2010, 18:59
FYI - I'm trying to remember where I read that there was thoughts on actually raising the minimum age to 22. Other can confirm validity of this.

Natioanl Guard does not have a set upper age limit, I just helped a guy get in who was 34.


Scimitar

Richard
02-16-2010, 19:06
We had to be 21 upon completion of training and awarding of the suffix 'S' SQI - I always assumed it was to be able to legally buy all the beer for your first ODA assignment when going through all those 'firsts' they kept coming up with - actually maturity was the issue - still not sure how I slipped through that one. ;)

Richard

craigepo
02-16-2010, 19:07
The reason for the age requirement in Special Forces is due, in large part, to the many different types of missions SF dudes are assigned. Many of SF's missions require specific skills, abilities, and a maturity level that, generally speaking, a guy doesn't have when he is 20 years old.

Conversely, Rangers and SEALS perform missions that usually are considered direct-action(shoot-em-up) missions. While both of these units are very well-trained, their mission requirements don't necessitate the same maturity level. It doesn't make any unit "better" than any other, just different.

Hope this helps clear the fog

lksteve
02-16-2010, 19:08
Could you expand upon why this is ?Is your google-fu that weak? Look up the missions of SEALs, Rangers and Special Forces...look especially at the difference between direct action and unconventional warfare missions...work a little...:rolleyes:

The Reaper
02-16-2010, 20:18
BLUF - Because experience has proven that soldiers younger than 21 have a lower success rate in every category from accession through to retention. Statistically, they're not worth the investment. We've tried accessing younger soldiers/recruits several times over the last 35 years and the results have been verified every time.

What he said.

Iddeally, we need guys in SF in their mid-20s to stick around on teams till their early to mid-40s, or as long as they are physically able. To early generally lacks maturity and tend to wash out. Too late, and the physical toll is already taken and the damage is done.

And LJ19, you need to self-motivate and do your own research. It isn't that hard to find.

TR

Utah Bob
02-16-2010, 20:47
Could you expand upon why this is ?

You don't want the guy next to you constantly saying "Wow, I never saw anything like that before!", and then asking you what to do next.
There is no substitute for experience. And experience comes with time.

Richard
02-16-2010, 20:51
And experience comes with time.

Usually - or at least in my case - it seemed to come more as a result of a lack of experience and then surviving it all.

Richard

Snaquebite
02-16-2010, 21:15
There has been a lot of money spent over a lot of years analyzing, charting, disecting, and so much more regarding the average SF "graduate". Tests are conducted, questionaires filled out, profiles made, etc etc.... EXPERTS assist in establishing requirements.

This is done on a continuing basis. For now...that's the age limit. Will it change? Probably. And IMHO the age requirement will be higher considering the activities and mentality of todays youth.

OTOH...why do you need to be 11 to be a Boy Scout? Why 15 (in most states) to get a learners license? etc etc

LJ19
02-16-2010, 21:19
Is your google-fu that weak? Look up the missions of SEALs, Rangers and Special Forces...look especially at the difference between direct action and unconventional warfare missions...work a little...:rolleyes:

I know the difference between the two. I was just hoping you would tell a little bit more about why you wouldn't want to have been younger on your first ODA.

lksteve
02-16-2010, 21:32
I know the difference between the two. I was just hoping you would tell a little bit more about why you wouldn't want to have been younger on your first ODA.That's how you should have phrased the question...the truth be told, at 23, having been a junior NCO in the 82nd, I had a grasp for a bit of responsibility...I was never a junior engineer sergeant on a detachment...I was always the senior engineer....I had 20 year old candy stripers as junior engineers and my experience in the 82nd helped me with the fundamentals of training and supervising subordinates...and while at 23, I was still the kid on the team (in terms of QPs), I would have been much more of a boy among men at 20...this was in the post Vietnam era and my team sergeant was a WWII vet...shortly after getting to the team, I was awarded Master Parachutist wings...all but one of the NCOs on the team were master blasters, the detachment commaner was a senior parachutist...average age of the QPs was probably 30-35...the candy stripers were essentially raised by wolves...I needed the experience to hold my own in that environment, to be able to function effectively...if I had gone to a team as a junior engineer, with a senior NCO in place, it might have been a little different...I could have been "Peter-sahn"...that wasn't the world I lived in, though...

Snaquebite
02-16-2010, 21:33
I know the difference between the two. I was just hoping you would tell a little bit more about why you wouldn't want to have been younger on your first ODA.

The first team I was on every single guy had a CIB, some had a Star. I was wishing I was older and been where they had been.

Go read and research more and report back what you discover.

Your assignment: "Why maturity is important as an SF soldier and how it relates to age in today's world"

LJ19
02-16-2010, 21:48
Thank you iksteve and Snaquebite for your responses.


Your assignment: "Why maturity is important as an SF soldier and how it relates to age in today's world"

How long should it be, and when is it due ?

lksteve
02-16-2010, 21:55
How long should it be, and when is it due ?It needs to be as long as necessary to cover the subject...it's due when it's done, completely, succinctly, thoroughly...move out and draw fire...

Snaquebite
02-16-2010, 21:58
That's a good question. Let's suppose you're SF and your Team Sergeant gives you that assignment....Are you going to ask him that or just go home get it done and report back ASAP? I could say tomorrow. I could say 3 days. As far as length...nobody likes to read a long report... I just want documented facts.

mark46th
02-16-2010, 22:02
I was 21, going on 22 when I graduated from Phase III and assigned to group in 1971. I think one of the reasons they took younger guys at that time was due to attrition in Southeast Asia. But I think the main reason they took us so young was because we were young, eager and the vets enjoyed laughing at us....

The Reaper
02-16-2010, 22:11
LJ19, statistics from SOPC, SFAS, and the SFQC reflected an unusually high failure rate for younger students, so the minimum age was raised.

You don't see too many high schoolers going directly to the NFL, NBA, or MLB either. Given that they are money sports, there is probably a reason for that.

After being in SF for a few decades, you get a feeling about things like maturity. Reading posts here on PS.com, I can usually tell without checking when a poster is 20 years old or less.

You can enlist in the Army at age 17. Riddle me this. If you think you really have what it takes, why not cowboy up and enlist as an infantryman, either Airborne or Ranger, and prove that you have what it takes by soldiering for a couple of years before applying to try out for SF?

The end result is the same, isn't it?

TR

ZonieDiver
02-16-2010, 22:24
I was 21, going on 22 when I graduated from Phase III and assigned to group in 1971. I think one of the reasons they took younger guys at that time was due to attrition in Southeast Asia. But I think the main reason they took us so young was because we were young, eager and the vets enjoyed laughing at us....

Ditto for me, Mark. I hit 22 a couple months after I got to 8th Group.

It was "attrition" from SE Asia that was a contributing factor, and there were not a great many NCO's from active duty units coming into SF, at least in my classes. In my Weapons class, we had three - all VN vets.

head
02-16-2010, 23:10
To answer the other questions, when Couch was writing his book, there was no age limit. I signed up at 19 in 04, when I was 21 was on my first deployment, SF or not. I wasn't the youngest, but I don't remember anyone being under 20 by graduation.

Some might think I would be offended by everyone saying they wouldn't want someone that young on their team (Hell, I'm still too young at 24 by some of their standards), but I agree with them. You are at a Big disadvantage and must work hard to compensate for your lack of experience. However, this also applies to all 18X'rs, but the younger they are the less life experience, maturity, and learned skills they bring to the table. I had already lived abroad on my own and went to college by the time I enlisted, but some guys went straight out of highschool. I still look back sometimes and wonder what if I had started in an infantry unit, and I still seek to learn from the experiences that others had.

As far as having a "Oh shit what do I do?" reaction in combat, a lot of background comes into play - not just age. The type and quality of training would be a bigger influence IMO. Naturally an infantryman and other combat MOSs would have an edge, but not everyone in SF has that background - Xray or not.

Young or old, experienced or not, I believe a good SF soldier should always be trying to learn from everyone else - from the cherry FNG to the grizzled old team daddy.

ZonieDiver
02-16-2010, 23:40
Young or old, experienced or not, I believe a good SF soldier should always be trying to learn from everyone else - from the cherry FNG to the grizzled old team daddy.

Well said, Head! (Hey, that rhymes!) One of the proudest moments of my young SF life was when a "grizzled old team" member said, "Hey, I never thought of that" to a suggestion of mine.

If you ain't learning and growing, you are dying!

LJ19
02-17-2010, 02:31
edit

cback0220
02-17-2010, 07:02
I am not an old guy yet or even a guy with alot of experience, but I graduated last year at 21. I got Selected way back when I was 18. If I were you I would go be an infantryman in Ranger Battallion and would come to SF when you are an E-5. If you were to do that you would learn a hell of a lot, and be on a better footing and be more of an asset to your team initially.

Utah Bob
02-17-2010, 12:53
I am not an old guy yet or even a guy with alot of experience, but I graduated last year at 21. I got Selected way back when I was 18. If I were you I would go be an infantryman in Ranger Battallion and would come to SF when you are an E-5. If you were to do that you would learn a hell of a lot, and be on a better footing and be more of an asset to your team initially.

Pretty darn good advice.

Mr Furious
02-17-2010, 13:45
I am not an old guy yet or even a guy with alot of experience, but I graduated last year at 21. I got Selected way back when I was 18. If I were you I would go be an infantryman in Ranger Battallion and would come to SF when you are an E-5. If you were to do that you would learn a hell of a lot, and be on a better footing and be more of an asset to your team initially.

VERY sound advice.

There is something to be said about a base of reference to increase your chance of success: When I went in right out of HS I was a commo guy assigned to an Infantry unit in the early 80’s. The CPT would lead me around the countryside by a handset. I was a city kid with no clue about tactics, land navigation, or shooting skills beyond basic trng. I did know when the 2LTs would get the company lost as frustrations would mount. I also knew that steak for chow and the words “movement to contact” meant nothing more to me than a long walk with that heavy tick on my back while the CPT carried nothing more than an LBE and a 1911; resentment builds in the 18 year old mind after 6 miles of walking in circles with a lost 2LT in front. I would sit in the CP tent during troop leading procedures (I had no idea that is what they were called at the time) watching the radio while those same 2LTs were making plans with the CPT reading from some little flip page “handbook”. I observed as he would coach those young leaders. It was great for me as over the next two years I got to hear and observe all of this over and over; groundhog day. I also got to hear stories from that CPT who was a QP, and was back in an Infantry unit to do his company command time; as this was prior to the days of SF being a branch. Those stories and his leadership inspired me and kindled the fire to do greater things. I had another great mentor who took me under his wings and in a very short time imparted some wisdom and equipped me with just enough to find my way in the darkness (literally).

I left the Infantry and went to SFQC when I was 22 years old. It was during one of the early classes on SUT when all of a sudden the 100 quadrillion-watt light bulb switched on…”THATS what those guys were talking about in that little CP tent”. Everything came together and suddenly my world made perfect sense. The course had its way with me at times, but in the end I wound up doing pretty well there; then the real journey for me began. A decade later that young CPT would go on to command 2/7th SFG before moving on again, and my land nav guru retired a little over a year ago as a CW5 and one of the most senior guys in 10th SFG. I took away many lessons from them, but none more important to me than having the patience to provide someone else with a “base of reference”, as they did with me. Can’t build a base or get mentored unless you march down that path first, then your chances for success increase exponentially.

Warrior-Mentor
02-17-2010, 13:55
Hello

I searched the forum for threads that answered my questions, but I could not find anything. 1) I am wondering why there is an age minimum of twenty to enlist under an 18X contract. I understand that the Army wants an ODA to be comprised of very mature people, however other SOF units such as the Navy SEALs or Rangers have no such age minimum. 2) Are there exceptions to the age minimum? In Dick Couch's book Chosen Soldier, he points out that there are a few people at the SFQC who are younger than twenty. I understand that the book documented a 2004 training class, so the age requirements could have changed since then. 3) Is a person's age not relevant if they are already in the Army? According to the Special Operations Recruiting Battalion's Special Forces page, the Army is accepting PFC's for SFAS. For instance, if I were to enlist as an infantryman with an airborne contract, would I be able to attend SFAS after completion of OSUT and airborne school as an eighteen year old?

Thanks, and I apologize if any of these questions have already been answered in other threads.

Three words: Young Guys Quit.

It's that simple. When we restarted the 18X Program (formerly known as the "SF Baby program"), USAJFKSWCS paid attention and studied who was succeeding and who wasn't. The biggest commonality (to a point) was age. It was bell curve. 24-27 was the most successful ages IIRC. Older were still more successful than younger. Age, in this case, was and is an asset. Older people are more deliberate in their decision making - and more committed once the decision is made.

APFT Score was a large indicator as well. We could help with APFT scores through training. You can't do anything with age, but wait - or restrict through age minimums....

Geenie
02-17-2010, 15:08
Gentlemen,

thank you for sharing your opinions and experiences.

I'd like to ask a question, if I may: If most of you recommend serving as a regular infantryman (or ranger) before coming into SF, who do you think should sign up for 18x?

Pete
02-17-2010, 15:46
... who do you think should sign up for 18x?

The question is not who do I think should sign up for 18X but - do you think you should sign up for 18X? Where is your mind at?

While I got the SF Enlistment option in a roundabout way - I didn't know I had enlisted for the Green Berets - there was no quit in me.

My group did Basic, AIT and Jump School back to back although we didn't know it - different companies and MOSs. At Jump School we had to take the SF Swim test and got together for the first time. There was 11 of us. All 18ish and all SF Enlistment options.

We finished Jump School and got on the Bus for Bragg with the 82nd guys. 24 hours after getting on the bus and less than 12 hours after hitting Ft Bragg we were out at Camp MacKall for Phase I. A few days later I was sitting next to one of those 11 guys. He was looking at his hands and said "I quit" in a soft voice, got up, grabbed his ruck, walked over to the TAC Shack - and quit. In the next few days 5 more of the 11 followed him - all similar - just quit.

Me and four others remained and finished all 3 phases.

A strong mind will carry a weak body further than a weak mind will carry a strong body. (not my quote)

In addition to the skills observed during selection does the "Average" 18-19 year old have the mind to go with the body? The Army, at this time, period has decided No.

"The carryall for Ft Bragg will be departing from the TAC shack in 15 minutes"

Still remember that statement that came over the loudspeaker before the morning's first formation. We'd be in the front leaning rest knocking 'um out as the van was loaded with the quiters. So easy, just pick up your ruck, take a few steps and you could join them.

cback0220
02-17-2010, 18:13
Three words: Young Guys Quit.

It's that simple. When we restarted the 18X Program (formerly known as the "SF Baby program"), USAJFKSWCS paid attention and studied who was succeeding and who wasn't. The biggest commonality (to a point) was age. It was bell curve. 24-27 was the most successful ages IIRC. Older were still more successful than younger. Age, in this case, was and is an asset. Older people are more deliberate in their decision making - and more committed once the decision is made.

APFT Score was a large indicator as well. We could help with APFT scores through training. You can't do anything with age, but wait - or restrict through age minimums....

Another thing that goes along with the younger guys is that alot of them that do not quit make other poor decisions, (i.e getting drunk before PT, getting DUI's, mouthing off, losing their military bearing) These are things that will get you kicked out of the course before you have even done anything. Some younger guys forget basic military discipline when they get selected, for no other reason than they think they are made men and are set. When in fact nothing could be further from the truth. I have learned more the 8 months I have been on a team than I ever did as a student.

Do older guys make the same mistakes? Yes, but as a whole younger guys have a worse habit of doing than older guys.

Another thing to consider is what has an 18 year old really done in his life? Nothing really. Playing sports, learning to drive a car, and graduating high school are not really huge accomplishments and don't develop character. How do you KNOW that this is what you want. You simply don't/can't KNOW, and knowing is what you have to do.

I normally don't post much but this one hits closer to home cause I was an 18y/o kid who did it. The fact that it worked out for me does not mean that it will work out for everyone.

Mike
02-19-2010, 01:48
I agree on the concept of age requirements.
Reality can be interesting.

I was 20 when I graduated SFTG in 1967.

A majority of us were about the same age.

Most of us went straight to VN or within 6 months.

We served on A Teams, Mike Force, and a lot of "kids" ran SOG, some even as 1-0s.

Overall we rose to the occaision and did good.

We also didn't have any of the hellweek stuff.
I recall we were just naturally tough guys who were somewhat smart.

Some of us stayed in and had outstanding careers.

I still like the age requirements, but sometimes you have a pool of outstanding people lined up.

Sad to waste them.

JJ2K1
02-23-2010, 12:37
who do you think should sign up for 18x?

Well I just wanted to add from my experience that some of the best 18x guys that made it on teams were guys that were a little older and had some other life experiences other than just graduating from high school. They had either a college education, or worked in various fields of employment that even though they were not military related, they still brought something helpful and or useful to the team.

Maybe another reason for the age minimum would be to get some of the 17-18 year olds coming into the Army to at least get some basic soldiering and Army experience under their belt so you don't run into the situations that I've seen where you have young 21 year old 18xs who get promoted to E-6, but do not know basic soldiering things that an E-6 in the Army should know.

Richard
02-23-2010, 14:32
Just for consideration - recent brain development studies over the past decade have shown that forebrain [higher cognitive functions, including the ability to concentrate, reason, think in abstract form (logic), and judgment] development (especially in males) normally continues to progress and mature throughout the teen years until somewhere in the 20-27 year range.

Time and a number of scientific journals have run articles on the developing teen brain and behavior.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01conv.html?_r=1

Areas involved in planning and decision-making, including the prefrontal cortex -- the cognitive or reasoning area of the brain important for controlling impulses and emotions -- appear not to have yet reached adult dimension during the early twenties.

http://www.sfn.org/index.aspx?pagename=brainBriefings_Adolescent_brai n

Richard