Use of Force

[Smokin Joe]

I didn't want to Hijack another thread.

Use of Force, my intent is to give you a brief overview on what use of force is and how it applies to you.

These are Arizona laws. I STONGLY recommend that you research your local and state laws before you may have to use force on someone else.

A.R.S. (Arizona Revised Statue) 13-404 Justification of Physical force
13-404. Justification; self-defense

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.

B. The threat or use of physical force against another is not justified:

1. In response to verbal provocation alone; or

2. To resist an arrest that the person knows or should know is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, whether the arrest is lawful or unlawful, unless the physical force used by the peace officer exceeds that allowed by law; or

3. If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:

(a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and

(b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.



A.R.S. 13-405 Justification; use of deadly physical force

13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force

A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.


There are some other exceptions here (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/title13.htm)

Here is what we LEO's call a Use of Force Continuum:

1. Officer Presence (you being there in the first place)
2. Verbal Commands (wether challenging or calming)
3. Soft hands (guiding hands or joint locks)
4. O.C. Spray / TASER (this is where your 1st less lethal device is deployed)
5. Hard Hands (punches, kicks, elbow, knee, etc.)
6. Baton / Impact Weapon (not including strikes to the head)
7. Lethal Force (this could be anything, gun, knife, crowbar etc)

*Additionally in Arizona there is a no "retreat" law. Meaning that you do not have to retreat to try and avoid a fight.

What elements need to be present for you to be justified in using force on another person?


Ability
Opportunity
Jeopardy
Perclusion


Ability- The individual threatening you has to have the ability to carry out those threats

Opportunity- The individual threatening you has to have the opportunity to carry out those threats

Jeopardy- You have to be in imminent (or immediate) danger.

Preclusion- What lesser means have you exhausted to try and defuse the situation.

Okay now that you have established that all 4 above elements are present. What can you do.

1. Try to talk your way out of a fight
2. Try to Escape and Evade
3. Fight you are justified to use the same level of force that your attacker is using on you.

Physical and enviromental factors also need to be taken into account.

I.E. : If you are a 5'1" 100 lbs woman walking down the street at night and you are attacked by a 6'3" 250 man. You would be justified in using more force on the individual than if you were attacked by a 5'1" 100 lbs woman.

You are also justified to use 1 step higher on the use of foce continuum to stop the threat.

I.E: If you are confronted with a knife. You may point a gun at them. If they are within 21 ft of you shoot them don't talk about it.

OR

If you are being attacked by someone who is punching you. You may use a baton or impact weapon (in a less lethal manner) to stop there attack.

Hope this was infomative.

I will also defer to the Attorney's on here if I'm wrong.

[The Reaper]

You want to touch on the exception (if you have one) for them trying to physically acquire your deadly force device, i.e., take your weapon?

I believe that if you are both struggling for the weapon, you may escalate to deadly force immediately as a means of last resort.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by The Reaper
You want to touch on the exception (if you have one) for them trying to physically acquire your deadly force device, i.e., take your weapon?

I believe that if you are both struggling for the weapon, you may escalate to deadly force immediately as a means of last resort.

TR

Absolutely correct Sir!

One more thing I would like to add.

You do not have to go step by step through the use of force continuum.

I.E. You maybe walking down the street one second to shooting someone the next second and skipping everything in the middle.

OR

Walking down the street one second to monkey stomping someone the next.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Great thread!

[A Soldier]

Hi i am new here and ordinarily I would not post post but the advice here has been outstanding.

I have been to several other boards and I have found it difficul to get any advice on the legal aspects of fighting or self defense the advice here is great.

I will go back to lurking but not before I ask one last quesioun.

If after an altercation a police officer stepped in, what action would he view as self defense and leave you alone, and what would he view as assault and arrest you.

[Ambush Master]

You will find that you will get a more fitting response once you follow our directions, located in "Stickies" at the top of all Forums, and fill out your Profile so that we have some idea as to whom we are answering.

Thanks, and take care.
Martin

[Goggles Pizano]

Ok Joe I have to ask.....I know I am late to this discussion but what caused this thread? Did you have to write for giving some knucklehead a birthday party? :munchin

[Smokin Joe]

Ok Joe I have to ask.....I know I am late to this discussion but what caused this thread? Did you have to write for giving some knucklehead a birthday party? :munchin

LOL

No I teach this stuff at the Academy and for my Department. It was inspired by another thread inwhich we were discussing self defense. I can't remember which thread it was. I didn't want to play hijacker so I created this one. I have been meaning to put a little more into this but it made its way to the bottom of the stack and I sort of forgot about it. I will TRY and update or add to this thread now that it has resurfaced.

My orginial intent was to give the civilians on this board a working knowledge of a use of force continuum and how it applies to there lives.

[Goggles Pizano]

:p Roger that!

Just don't forget the "oh Shit!" factor! Nothing more educational than trying to train someone and have your calm situation go south in the blink of an eye.


"Uh.....well Sarge I was concerned about the force continuum, but then he squared up on me ready to throw hands, and now he's wearing a turban." :D

[A Soldier]

I apologise I belive I had filled in the details in my profile beforehand however when I checked it agian this time it appears my profile was empty, I have since remdied the situation and filled in the profile.

Sorry I read the rules and I must have forgoten the part about introudcing myself.

Well I am serving in the Israeli Navy at Naval Headquarters, for OPSEC reasons lets just say all I do is push papers around all day. It is not entirely true but I can not explain I hope you will forgive me. Let me just be clear on this issue I am not a combatant nor have I ever served in any combat capacity, Sadly I have Diabeates and this precludes any combat role.

If you have any questiouns I will be more than happy to answer, I apologise that my first post was such a boneheaded one, I will go back to lurking.

[Smokin Joe]

:p Roger that!

Just don't forget the "oh Shit!" factor! Nothing more educational than trying to train someone and have your calm situation go south in the blink of an eye.


"Uh.....well Sarge I was concerned about the force continuum, but then he squared up on me ready to throw hands, and now he's wearing a turban." :D

Oh you mean like when you impact push a handcuffed suspect who just squard up with you and is talking shit to you and every other officer around. :p

[Smokin Joe]

If after an altercation a police officer stepped in, what action would he view as self defense and leave you alone, and what would he view as assault and arrest you.

This will greatly depend on the witnesses that watch the altercation. If you present yourself as the victim. I.E. My advice is in the pre-contact phase of the fight you should be yelling, "Stop, Leave Me alone, Someone call the Police, etc." have your hands up in a non threating manner (hands open in front of you, palms towards the threat elbows tucked into the body). This is a universal sign of submission. So present an exterior of submission and avoidance. However, internally you are preparing your fight stragedy mentally, assessing the threat, his/her options, any additional threats, all of there options, All while assessing your options to deal with the threat as well as any environmental factors (day, night, snow, rain, etc) and finally your assessing your escape routes. Its a lot to manage in fractions of a second but you need to do it. Oh and fight your bodies natural tendency to get tunnel vision. This is done buy constantly scanning back and forth.

HTH

[NousDefionsDoc]

I apologise I belive I had filled in the details in my profile beforehand however when I checked it agian this time it appears my profile was empty, I have since remdied the situation and filled in the profile.

Sorry I read the rules and I must have forgoten the part about introudcing myself.

Well I am serving in the Israeli Navy at Naval Headquarters, for OPSEC reasons lets just say all I do is push papers around all day. It is not entirely true but I can not explain I hope you will forgive me. Let me just be clear on this issue I am not a combatant nor have I ever served in any combat capacity, Sadly I have Diabeates and this precludes any combat role.

If you have any questiouns I will be more than happy to answer, I apologise that my first post was such a boneheaded one, I will go back to lurking.

Welcome to PS.com

[Goggles Pizano]

Oh you mean like when you impact push a handcuffed suspect who just squard up with you and is talking shit to you and every other officer around. :p


As Sgt. Schultz would say.... I know nuuuuuuthing! ;)

[stanley_white]

I've been to several schools that spoke and trained to a situation in which you may have / choose to utilize a tactical folding knife in the blade closed position as an impact weapon.

Are there any legal ramifications to this?

For example... Is "pulling a knife" the same whether or not the folding knife is open or closed?

I assume in my case if I used a closed tactical folder as an impact weapon though someone could argue that I "pulled a knife" I could quote my training and though I did produce a knife I did not use it as a cutting tool but an impact weapon etc etc.

Weird scenario but I believe there are times when one may pull their knife out but not have time to deploy the blade. Utilizing the knife as an impact tool as a gap-bridging technique in order to create time or space to deploy the blade could be realistic.

Thanks in advance for any imput you may have.

[Smokin Joe]

I've been to several schools that spoke and trained to a situation in which you may have / choose to utilize a tactical folding knife in the blade closed position as an impact weapon.

Are there any legal ramifications to this?

For example... Is "pulling a knife" the same whether or not the folding knife is open or closed?

I assume in my case if I used a closed tactical folder as an impact weapon though someone could argue that I "pulled a knife" I could quote my training and though I did produce a knife I did not use it as a cutting tool but an impact weapon etc etc.

Weird scenario but I believe there are times when one may pull their knife out but not have time to deploy the blade. Utilizing the knife as an impact tool as a gap-bridging technique in order to create time or space to deploy the blade could be realistic.

Thanks in advance for any imput you may have.


Interesting Question. I don't have a hard line answer for you.

However I can offer you this:
In the scenario you have, deadly force needs to be justified. So if deadly force is justified you would be justified in slashing, stabbing, etc. You would also be justified to use all lesser means, to include using the knife as you descirbed as an impact weapon.

Now if deadly force was not justified and an impact was justified you could use the knife as an impact weapon, but I wouldn't recommend it. In a typical folder there is not enough weight to be used adequately as an impact device. Now if you had The Reaper Knife by Mr. Harsey that thing looks like it has enough weight to be used as an impact device if you used the back side of the blade.

HTH.

[Goggles Pizano]

Are there any legal ramifications to this?

For example... Is "pulling a knife" the same whether or not the folding knife is open or closed?

I assume in my case if I used a closed tactical folder as an impact weapon though someone could argue that I "pulled a knife" I could quote my training and though I did produce a knife I did not use it as a cutting tool but an impact weapon etc etc.

If I may...1) Yes pulling a folded knife is the same open/closed if your intent is to use it. If your intent is to display it then no.

2) SW your assuming that once a weapon is deployed you have the luxury of changing the scenario mid-fight. This is not realistic. Most Dept. SOP's live by the force continuum as a guideline for supervisors to justify your actions. On the street however you must decide which weapon to deploy, at what time, and which keeps you alive to write about it later. If you need an impact weapon why go to a folded knife? You may have a stick, jack, collapsed baton, etc. Like not bringing a knife to a gunfight your taught to use the right tool. HOWever I would be a liar if I said I never cracked a guy over the head with my radio when he decided to fight and could I could not get to another tool. So if you have a knife in your hands at the time the fight starts and you decide to use it as a blunt weapon sure that is a valid argument but you will get chastised by your supervisor for lack of SA I'm sure. :D

[stanley_white]

Gentlemen,

I thank you both for the information. I've been taught that technique by two different folks as an alternative and I never had a chance to inquire about the possible legal ramifications of it. Thanks for the info.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I always thought it came down to how many different versions of the story there are. I strive to ensure that at the end of the confrontation there is only one version and I tell it the same way every time. Makes it easier for everybody to decide. ;)

[Smokin Joe]

I always thought it came down to how many different versions of the story there are. I strive to ensure that at the end of the confrontation there is only one version and I tell it the same way every time. Makes it easier for everybody to decide. ;)

That is a great philosophy

[LEStudent]

Wow, excellent thread. How about impact weapons versus various areas of the body? We were taught in the Academy that an impact weapon is considered deadly force if used agains the head, neck, throat, or groin. I don't know if that would hold true for civilians, or if that's just how impact weapons are classed in FLDE's force-continuum.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Well I am serving in the Israeli Navy

So shouldn't we call you "A Sailor"? ;)

[Smokin Joe]

Wow, excellent thread. How about impact weapons versus various areas of the body? We were taught in the Academy that an impact weapon is considered deadly force if used agains the head, neck, throat, or groin. I don't know if that would hold true for civilians, or if that's just how impact weapons are classed in FLDE's force-continuum.

LEStudent,

The same is true for Civilains. If a Civy uses an impact weapon and stikes the head, neck or throat, it is considered deadly force. The best way to avoid inadvertanly using an impact weapon in a deadly force manner is to use Horizontal strikes to the limbs or body. If using vertical strikes it is easy to inadvertanly strike someone in there Grape.

Lastly I have never heard or been taught that striking the groin is deadly force. In Arizona the groin is classified as a 'secondary striking area'. Primary stiking areas are large muscle groups such as the thigh, calf, or bicep. Secondary stiking areas are joints such as the knee, elbow, or the groin.

[Goggles Pizano]

LEStudent,

The same is true for Civilains. If a Civy uses an impact weapon and stikes the head, neck or throat, it is considered deadly force. The best way to avoid inadvertanly using an impact weapon in a deadly force manner is to use Horizontal strikes to the limbs or body. If using vertical strikes it is easy to inadvertanly strike someone in there Grape.

Lastly I have never heard or been taught that striking the groin is deadly force. In Arizona the groin is classified as a 'secondary striking area'. Primary stiking areas are large muscle groups such as the thigh, calf, or bicep. Secondary stiking areas are joints such as the knee, elbow, or the groin.

Roger that Joe. Same goes up here as well. Are you teaching the Monandock(sp) force continuum? Also are you guys studying the effects (or lack of) of certain strikes against EDP's or suspects on both adrenal/chemically assisted highs? I'm just curious if the training is evolving.

[LEStudent]

LEStudent,

The same is true for Civilains. If a Civy uses an impact weapon and stikes the head, neck or throat, it is considered deadly force. The best way to avoid inadvertanly using an impact weapon in a deadly force manner is to use Horizontal strikes to the limbs or body. If using vertical strikes it is easy to inadvertanly strike someone in there Grape.

Lastly I have never heard or been taught that striking the groin is deadly force. In Arizona the groin is classified as a 'secondary striking area'. Primary stiking areas are large muscle groups such as the thigh, calf, or bicep. Secondary stiking areas are joints such as the knee, elbow, or the groin.

Hmm... maybe I've gotten it wrong about the groin. I'll have to look again.

[Goggles Pizano]

Hmm... maybe I've gotten it wrong about the groin. I'll have to look again.


Must......resist......obvious.......response...... ..AAAAAAAHHHHHHH! :D

[stanley_white]

I try to stay away if possible from using "pain compliance" techniques. My reasoning behind this is that they don't work too well on drunk / high / highly motivated attackers.

Techniques such as the OSS "Chin Jab" accelerate the skull faster than the brain can catch up and produce a good concussion effect that works well both on regular and drug indused / motivated folks.

My goal is to induce something like this:

http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/swfcoup.shtml


Of course everyone has a plan until the they get hit. :D

[LEStudent]

Must......resist......obvious.......response...... ..AAAAAAAHHHHHHH! :D

Oh geez... I can't believe I left myself open for that one.

[Smokin Joe]

Roger that Joe. Same goes up here as well. Are you teaching the Monandock(sp) force continuum? Also are you guys studying the effects (or lack of) of certain strikes against EDP's or suspects on both adrenal/chemically assisted highs? I'm just curious if the training is evolving.


Goggles,

I can't talk right now nor can I comment on anything dealing with us of force right now. My Admin just bitched slapped me with some bullshit. Hope you guys understand. When all the dust settles I will advis. :mad:

[Goggles Pizano]

NP, PM me when you can.

[Smokin Joe]

I'm FREE! or better yet the "Allegation of excessive use of force is Unfounded". :lifter



Roger that Joe. Same goes up here as well. Are you teaching the Monandock(sp) force continuum? Also are you guys studying the effects (or lack of) of certain strikes against EDP's or suspects on both adrenal/chemically assisted highs? I'm just curious if the training is evolving.



Goggles,

I'm not familiar with the Monandock force continuum (hmm my google skills are weak tonight as well).

Unforutantly my department does not have the ability or resources to do studies. However, I have been hearing alot lately form bigger agencies such as Phoenix P.D. and Maricopa County S.O. refering to and acknowledging the fact that baton and other strikes are completely ineffective on EDP or chemically stimulated people.

The only evolving training we have been doing lately is the implamentation of the Taser(s). Most agencies are becoming Taser dependent however we are working hard to make sure that our people are properly deploying the taser as well as working through the Taser when it fails. We strongly emphasize and train to speed reload Tasers under stress as well as holstering it and transitioning.

[scoot]

I about got tased the other day. It's kind of a long story, but the officers were very kind and eventually released me and the other perp. First time in handcuffs. Didn't like it and hopefully will never be again. Biggest reason not to fight now: Cops with Tasers! Just thinking about how close I was gives me the willies.

[The Reaper]

I about got tased the other day. It's kind of a long story, but the officers were very kind and eventually released me and the other perp. First time in handcuffs. Didn't like it and hopefully will never be again. Biggest reason not to fight now: Cops with Tasers! Just thinking about how close I was gives me the willies.

I am surprised that you are that afraid of being Tased. In the old days, you would have been Maced, sapped, slapjacked, beat down with a night stick or a flashlight, or all of the above. Most of those would have required a trip to the hospital, and charges filed against you to protect the officer.

I recently saw several women at a LE trade show volunteering to get zapped with a Taser and most of them didn't even scream. They just collapsed, and were back up and in control of themselves within seconds.

Easiest way to avoid Tasing, if you are that worried, is to comply with the officer's instructions, whether you agree with them or not. I don't see too many people getting lit up who are cooperating and compliant. :rolleyes:

Good luck!

TR

[Guy]

Easiest way to avoid Tasing, if you are that worried, is to comply with the officer's instructions, whether you agree with them or not. I don't see too many people getting lit up who are cooperating and compliant. :rolleyes:

Good luck!

TR

Evidently he has never seen that Chris Rock video, some think it was a joke...I think it rings true.

[stanley_white]

I know one department where Taser is 2d on their force continum to Officer Presence.

"Get on the ground!"

"No!"

Zap!

:D

[L51]

I know one department where Taser is 2d on their force continum to Officer Presence.

"Get on the ground!"

"No!"

Zap!

:D


What state is it in? In many ways, that may be practical way of doing things. I can only speak for CA law, but if the officer has a valid detention, the suspect is bound by law to obey the officer. Once the people in that area understand that they HAVE to obey the officers commands, things go alot smoother. In my department, I have seen officers NOT go hands on or act when they should. They give a command and when the suspect doesn't comply, they ask again, and again until either the suspect finally complies or another officer jumps in and takes control of the situation. The problem lies in that while the suspect is not complying, he (or she) has the time to stand there and think about whether they are going to comply or not and if not, to plan their moves, leaving the officer at risk.

My department no longer has a use of force continuum. We have a policy that explains our Control Devices (baton, OC, etc) but our Use of Force policy basically follows section 835 of the Penal Code and states that an officer "may use reasonable force to affect an arrest, to prevent escape or to overcome resistance. However, the key to any use of force, civilian or LE, is ARTICULATION. No matter the level of force used, you BETTER be able to explain why you use the force you did.

I'll write more later.

[stanley_white]

What state is it in?

Ohio.

[frostfire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsPoWGF4qus

RIP officers

are they following the correct SOP here (Puerto Rico)? Would it be too late if the use of force continuum is completely followed in concealed weapon scenario?

They could have frisk the other person too, but what if he was assumed to be a bystander?

Case of flight and not flight, SA and OODA loop failure, initial denial reaction, and/or tunnel vision?

[Smokin Joe]

The cover officer F**ked up and forgot what a cover officer is supposed to do!

[kgoerz]

Remember every Bullet has a Lawyer/Lawsuit attached to it (not my quote). Dead men don't testify. What states don’t have the flight law anymore? For instance my wife two years ago and I in another situation shot at people on our land. Could have shot them dead but had the sense to put them on the ground first. Didn’t want to lose everything in a law suit. Laugh now until it's you in that situation. long story, they were ridding ATV'S all over our land and ruining our horse breeding. Police wouldn’t do anything so some of them got injured running into wire at face level on our land. Anyway. 250lb dude charged my wife over our farm fence and she put a round past his head purposely, she was arrested and initially charged for discharging a firearm at a person. They said she could have run into the house instead of shooting. Lead him into where our kids are right. Anyway all charges were dropped but the first 48 hours the cops made her out to be a murderer. "Your going to jail lady" "you can’t shoot a gun at people" "Say good bye to your kids", "you’re going to jail". It was shameful behavior by the Sheriffs. Not beating on LEO’S. But be careful because that thug will show up in a suit a tie in court if he lives. Just my 02 from Hoke County N.C.