View Full Version : SFQC Class Number
First, I just read the comments from SGM Baer that he made in his Speech to the 247th Graduating Class of SFQC, as published in the latest "Drop." Reading that gave me a slight smile as he stated that it was "Just 28 years ago" when I sat where you sit, seems like yesterday.” I smiled because even though for me it was over 40 years ago - it still seems like yesterday.
He said that he could not even remember what the speaker said all those years before - strangely enough, I do remember what our speaker said - he was. An 0-5 from JFK Center – don’t remember his name or what his job was. But, what I remember best from his speech was not, how great our accomplishments were, or how proud we should be, etc. It was more along the lines of: "You think you have accomplished something? It is just beginning. For those of you who think you can relax, who think you can kick back and take it easy, who think you can back off and forget to be a soldier - you will be gone. You will not make it........"
He went on for another 10 minutes like that. For those of us who had just survived up to a year at Bragg at SFTG and had put up with all the chicken shit, most recently handed out to us at Echo Company or HHC - SFTG (where we were assigned for Phase 3). This was more of the same old song - a major disappointment. I was glad that I had no family there to hear that.
This SGM got it right - he pulled the families in, he allowed the guys to feel some pride for their accomplishments - he pointed out that you still had to keep up with your PT stay strong - but I could see that you could walk away from that ceremony and feel like a Man. Good Job Sergeant Major!
Secondly - when did they start numbering SFQC classes? Was it from Day 1, if so, what class would I have been in, graduating on May 29th, 1969? These days, how many classes do they have per year?
I remember cleaning weapons out at Camp MacKall after Ph III, Robin Sage. The poggy truck showed up and the TACs didn't care that we wandered over and bought stuff and ate while cleaning weapons. Relaxed, nice.
Got on the trucks and the rest was an out of focus movie at fast forward until we stood for our class photo in front of Bronze Bruce. Photo taken and with orders in hand about 10 of us walked up the hill to 5th Gp HQ and were assigned to the various companies.
Went to the Company, was assigned a room in the barracks, went back to the Training Bn Barracks and moved my stuff to the other side of the sidewalk and up one building to the 5th Gp Barracks. Got moved into an eight man room with 4 beds, three made so I took the open one and settled in. Got finished and it was dark outside. Sat down on the bed and started wondering "Just what have I gotten myself into?"
Door bursts open, three scruffy looking characters walk in dressed in a mixture of civilian and military cloths with rucksacks, "Heyhowareya'whatsyournamegladtoseeya" pats on the back, other guys come into the room, handshakes, more intros, everybody gets cleaned up and we're off to Hay Street.
Felt like home.
Have no clue what the Nov 1974 class number was. Dropped my Jump School, SFQC and CDS diplomas off at my folks house for safe keeping were they disappeared. Everything else I kept in my briefcase.
Pete said:
Door bursts open, three scruffy looking characters walk in dressed in a mixture of civilian and military cloths with rucksacks, "Heyhowareya'whatsyournamegladtoseeya" pats on the back, other guys come into the room, handshakes, more intros, everybody gets cleaned up and we're off to Hay Street.
Not quite the same experiance for me and Rodney (Tolentino). We both walked into the Orderly Room of A Company, 6th - the CQ said that the entire company was out at Lake Nantahala in western NC - for EDH Support. The CQ said that he did not know what B Team or A Team we would be assinged to but he had been told that as soon as we showed up he was to get us all our CIF Issue stuff and put us on a Duce-in-half and send us on out to Nantahala so that we could pull KP and act as Isolation Area Guards.
And so it began....
(Just a note - back then, the B-Team is what we now call the "Company," the Company is now called the "Battalion" - so A-Company would now be called 1st BN)
.....Not quite the same experiance for me and Rodney (Tolentino). ..............
Have not seen T in many a year. In my double slotted exile off the SCUBA Team to 576 I was on the same team as T and another cast of characters in 1975. At least two others post here. Doc was comin' as I was goin' so I don't really remember him - but T? Never will forget him. Not doing too well the last I heard through the grapevine.
Have not seen T in many a year. In my double slotted exile off the SCUBA Team to 576 I was on the same team as T and another cast of characters in 1975. At least two others post here. Doc was comin' as I was goin' so I don't really remember him - but T? Never will forget him. Not doing too well the last I heard through the grapevine.
Small world, ain't it bro . . . I never called him anything but Rodney - we were in commo school together - guess we just got on a first name basis. I have mentioned this before, but the last time I saw him was on Tiger Island - Bay of Fonseca, 1984. By then, he only had One Eye – wore an Eye Patch like Capn Jack Sparrow.
By the way, there may be more than one Tolention - I saw a mention of one on page 27 (picture at the bottom) of this same "Drop” But no way that guy is Rodney - Rodney is a small dude, Filipino from LA. If the seating order in that picture is correct - the big guy with dark framed glasses is not Rodney (the guy next to him very well could be though) hard to tell.
Mitch
Here he is
We were all so young.
Here he is
We were all so young.
Yes we were - like i said, it was over 40 years ago when he and I wallked out of Training Group and into the rest of our lives. . . .
And yes that is Rodney T - can't see the Eye Patch? Where was this taken?
The Reaper
02-09-2010, 21:17
Yep, that is Rod.
Saw him down at the Fayetteville VA Hospital a couple of years back, he was not doing very well.
Hope he got it sorted out.
TR
.....And yes that is Rodney T - can't see the Eye Patch? Where was this taken?
He wore a glass eye most of the time, only wore the patch every now and again. The picture was taken around 1976ish at a place you have to carry a protective mask all the time. A 2 qt Canteen, mask on your left hip and a C in your cargo pocket - all set for a day's training.
Also, field hats were more personal choice - wouldn't be until the 80s where uniformity realy kicked in.
I carried one of those 110 instamatics for years. Lots of pictures but most of poor quality. Good picture of the cammies though. A little more "green" tint than the BDUs of a few years later. Old faded out sets worked well in deserts with some vegitation.
Secondly - when did they start numbering SFQC classes? Was it from Day 1, if so, what class would I have been in, graduating on May 29th, 1969? These days, how many classes do they have per year?
Hate to go back and quote myself - but I would like to see if anyone knows the answer to my original question?
Also thanks for all the info on my old friend :)
greenberetTFS
02-10-2010, 13:17
(Just a note - back then, the B-Team is what we now call the "Company," the Company is now called the "Battalion" - so A-Company would now be called 1st BN)
__________________
Mitch
1952-1960,The Psywar Center labeled the first echelon SF Teams as "FA Teams and based there strength on the 15-man OSS Operational Groups (OG) of World War 2"
FA Teams were numbered beginning at 1 and continued in order until all teams were designated, FA Team 1 to FA Team 70 (10th SFG in 1952)......:cool:
1960-1971,Reduced the size of the FA Team to 12 men and removed the "F" prefix designation for all SF Teams. (FC to C,FB to B,FA to A)
Assigned 4 ODAs(Former FA Team)to each ODB (Former FB Team)for a total of 12 ODAs per SF Company(ODC),the former FC Team. Each ODA was now identified by 3 numbers that specified the company(ODC),the (ODB) in the company,and the specific team in that ODB. For example in 1963,ODA 312 indicated:
3 C Company,1st SFG
1 ODB 31
2 The second ODA assigned to ODB 31.
Veritas PB31-05-2 Vol.5,No. 4,2009.......;)
Big Teddy :munchin
1stindoor
02-11-2010, 06:51
Hate to go back and quote myself - but I would like to see if anyone knows the answer to my original question?
Also thanks for all the info on my old friend :)
I have no idea when the class numbering started...it was way before my time, I was in class 04-89...the funny thing is I was just relating a story about the Q-Course yesterday here at USASMA and someone said, "That was more than 20 years ago...and you still remember those details?"...I replied..."seems like yesterday." Must be on all of our minds.
Never saw any sort of class number going through SFTG when I went through - checked all my orders and certificates and they just indicate units of assignment with dates or official course title (e.g., Co F USAIMA W1EO-1F-X, Special Forces Medical NCO Candidate Course, Special Forces Aidman (Airborne) Course, Special Forces UW Medical Training Qualification Course, Special Forces Advanced Enlisted Course, etc).
If we were a numbered course, we sure weren't aware of it - but we weren't seeking to get 'noticed' much by the likes of Bear Martin, Richmond Nail, Big O, The Hunter, etc, either. ;)
Richard
ZonieDiver
02-11-2010, 08:28
Never saw any sort of class number going through SFTG when I went through - checked all my orders and certificates and they just indicate units of assignment with dates or official course title (e.g., Co F USAIMA W1EO-1F-X, Special Forces Medical NCO Candidate Course, Special Forces Aidman (Airborne) Course, Special Forces UW Medical Training Qualification Course, Special Forces Advanced Enlisted Course, etc).
If we were a numbered course, we sure weren't aware of it - but we weren't seeking to get 'noticed' much by the likes of Bear Martin, Richmond Nail, Big O, The Hunter, etc, either. ;)
Richard
I agree completely in not wanting to draw to much attention from that list of QP's! However, I think Mitch was talking about the consecutive numbering the SGM referenced:
First, I just read the comments from SGM Baer that he made in his Speech to the 247th Graduating Class of SFQC, as published in the latest "Drop."
I thought my class numbers were on my diplomas, and was surprised they were not. (I didn't find my orders awarding MOS and "S" identifier this a.m. to check them, but will.) I did find my Weapons class number (4-71, graduating on 4 Feb 71) on a "spot report" from SSG Kenneth Holmes for an outstanding wall locker display during a barrack's inspection on 19 Jan 71. My Phase III (SFAEC) class number (6-71, graduating on 29 Mar 71) is on the Bowie knife I was awarded, but not on the letter from Col Bartholomees that came with it. (Again, I thought it was.)
alright4u
02-11-2010, 08:47
.
Not quite the same experiance for me and Rodney (Tolentino). We both walked into the Orderly Room of A Company, 6th - the CQ said that the entire company was out at Lake Nantahala in western NC - for EDH Support. The CQ said that he did not know what B Team or A Team we would be assinged to but he had been told that as soon as we showed up he was to get us all our CIF Issue stuff and put us on a Duce-in-half and send us on out to Nantahala so that we could pull KP and act as Isolation Area Guards.
And so it began....
(Just a note - back then, the B-Team is what we now call the "Company," the Company is now called the "Battalion" - so A-Company would now be called 1st BN)
The Company was partly at Robbinsville, NC, and; others were all around Fontana lake, Santeetlah (sp) was there, too. I was back at Bragg as Major W and his 173 RD herd XO damn sure knew all. Frankly, I was not too keen on these officers. Hell, we had a sharp CPT come in as S-3 named T.L. Smith. Maj W, thought a prior SOG CPT was what the S-2 NCOIC needed. WRONG.
Hell, Dale Libbey had been our S-2 in Omega/C-5/CCS. He damn sure did not need my sad ass around him. Dale and I went back to the great INTEL he gave in early Nov 68. We hit an enemy company in their base camp.
Dale was that damn good as the MI Officers basic course was a damn joke next to Dale.
I do recall SFOC classes were numbered by 1-68 for 1st of FY 68 , actual year 1967, and 2-68, which I graduated from on 15 Dec 67 was the class of 67. Colonel Maroney was a fine CPT in that course. He took my sad ass through the E&E phase. He damn sure knew his shit. We also had a Major in our class and so called A team. That was kept very hush hush ,
Smile.
If we were a numbered course, we sure weren't aware of it - but we weren't seeking to get 'noticed' much by the likes of Bear Martin, Richmond Nail, Big O, The Hunter, etc, either. ;)
Richard
I am proud to say, I suppose, that other than seeing their names in the Drop, possibly, I do not know any of the people you mention, never heard of any of them and would not recognize them if I saw them. :D
I agree completely in not wanting to draw to much attention from that list of QP's! However, I think Mitch was talking about the consecutive numbering the SGM referenced:
Yes - that was my original question - If they call this latest class the 247th class, was that just due to some historical research or are they officially numbering them in some way. All the same, it would be interesting to know - what class number (historically speaking) from zero to 247 we were.
Team Sergeant
02-11-2010, 12:41
Except for class 1-83, I am not aware of any class "numbers". (There's none on my diploma, just dates.)
Dozer523
02-11-2010, 12:48
Yes - that was my original question - If they call this latest class the 247th class, was that just due to some historical research or are they officially numbering them in some way. All the same, it would be interesting to know - what class number (historically speaking) from zero to 247 we were.
It sounds a little gay to me.
BUT, it might work this way, "I went to the Q course 11 classes after the last hard one."
Or maybe there could be a "tradition" that all odd numbered classes must buy the beer for all classes with numbers evenly divisible by 7 unless the first class number is also evenly divisible 21 but only when the bar has an even number of beer on tap, unless the majority of beers served are German then the obligation is reversed and they have to get up and get all the free popcorn. Unless the waitress is blond and then the obligation reverts to the original (except on Fridays with even numbered dates).
The hell with this. . . , lets just play CRUD or Thumper for beer.:D
Wait a minute, assuming 7 classes per year then 247 classes only takes you back 35 years.
My diploma just has the dates 2 July - 21 November 1986 (signed by Col McClure and BG Guest)
I'm probably better off not knowing my class number - being mildly dyslexic, if it wasn't something like 77 or 101 or 222 or the like, I'd probably get it wrong whenever anyone asked about it anyway and have to constantly defend myself from being labeled a wannabe...DOG damn it. :p
Richard
ZonieDiver
02-11-2010, 13:24
It sounds a little gay to me.
BUT, it might work this way, "I went to the Q course 11 classes after the last hard one."
Or maybe there could be a "tradition" that all odd numbered classes must buy the beer for all classes with numbers evenly divisible by 7 unless the first class number is also evenly divisible 21 but only when the bar has an even number of beer on tap, unless the majority of beers served are German then the obligation is reversed and they have to get up and get all the free popcorn. Unless the waitress is blond and then the obligation reverts to the original (except on Fridays with even numbered dates).
The hell with this. . . , lets just play CRUD or Thumper for beer.:D
Wait a minute, assuming 7 classes per year then 247 classes only takes you back 35 years.
My diploma just has the dates 2 July - 21 November 1986 (signed by Col McClure and BG Guest)
Woah! Dude, my birth month is 7 and my birthdate is 21! What do I win?? :p
Woah! Dude, my birth month is 7 and my birthdate is 21! What do I win?? :p
It means you’re Gay - you win a Barbara Streisand Album and a trip to a Boise dude ranch. ;)
Mgrayfox
02-11-2010, 14:36
I don't remember my class number either, but I do remember reporting to A Co
6th Grp and meeting Company SGM Bobby Tigert. The first words out of his mouth were, "Okay, what did you do wrong?" I was just a PFC and he thought that I had screwed up and gotten busted before my assignment to his company. I explained to him that I had always been a PFC since I graduated from AIT at Fort Gordon. He said, "We don't need a PFC in this company!" I thought for a moment that I was headed for the 82nd. But, he said, "You're are authorized two weeks leave and that when I returned I would have SP4 orders waiting and I did. He was a great SGM and he assigned me to my B team with SGM "PIGPEN" Kimmet (sp?). SGM Kimmet retired and SGM "BULL" William J. Fuller took over the B team. That was in Sept 1968. But it does seem like it was yesterday! Good memories!
Johnny
Dozer523
02-11-2010, 14:59
Woah! Dude, my birth month is 7 and my birthdate is 21! What do I win?? :p your team buys all the beer all the time no matter what!
I don't remember my class number either, but I do remember reporting to A Co
6th Grp and meeting Company SGM Bobby Tigert. The first words out of his mouth were, "Okay, what did you do wrong?" I was just a PFC and he thought that I had screwed up and gotten busted before my assignment to his company. I explained to him that I had always been a PFC since I graduated from AIT at Fort Gordon. He said, "We don't need a PFC in this company!" I thought for a moment that I was headed for the 82nd. But, he said, "You're are authorized two weeks leave and that when I returned I would have SP4 orders waiting and I did. He was a great SGM and he assigned me to my B team with SGM "PIGPEN" Kimmet (sp?). SGM Kimmet retired and SGM "BULL" William J. Fuller took over the B team. That was in Sept 1968. But it does seem like it was yesterday! Good memories!
Johnny
Don't remember Tigert but remebmber Fuller very well. My B Team SGM was SGM Pylant.
Like I said earlier, no two week leave for us - just a quick trip the life of being the newest, and lowest ranking guy in the company - E-5's and below pulled KP - I remember getting lots of KP.
mark46th
02-11-2010, 22:30
Hey Rich- I think our class number was- " Geezus It Was Cold!"
mojaveman
02-11-2010, 23:11
4/84 during the Summer of 1984. We had a few heat casualties that I can remember. I have the autographs of COL Cincotti and BG Wiegand on my diploma.
The Reaper
02-12-2010, 08:57
3-84.
TR
SkiBumCFO
02-12-2010, 14:53
2-84. I have always said I went through the last easy class so Since TR was in the class behind me he must have gone through the first hard Class! Zonnie Diver - There definitely were not seven classes a year in the early 80s so that math doesnt work
The Reaper
02-12-2010, 16:15
2-84. I have always said I went through the last easy class so Since TR was in the class behind me he must have gone through the first hard Class! Zonnie Diver - There definitely were not seven classes a year in the early 80s so that math doesnt work
Thanks!
There were six per year from the 80s till somewhere in the 90s, then they went to four per year, because that saved money and was all we needed.:rolleyes:
Until it wasn't, then we went back to six per year, and somewhere in the past few years, we went to eight.
Assuming that the classes were the same general size, once we are done growing the 4th battalions, what does that tell you about the number of people we are losing from SF every year?
TR
Ret10Echo
02-12-2010, 16:16
Thanks!
There were six per year from the 80s till somewhere in the 90s, then they went to four per year, because that saved money and was all we needed.:rolleyes:
Until it wasn't, then we went back to six per year, and somewhere in the past few years, we went to eight.
Assuming that the classes were the same general size, once we are done growing the 4th battalions what does that tell you about the number of people we are losing from SF every year?
TR
Oh GREAT.....Algebra :D
T Jerrel
02-12-2010, 22:50
I remember cleaning weapons out at Camp MacKall after Ph III, Robin Sage. The poggy truck showed up and the TACs didn't care that we wandered over and bought stuff and ate while cleaning weapons. Relaxed, nice.
Got on the trucks and the rest was an out of focus movie at fast forward until we stood for our class photo in front of Bronze Bruce. Photo taken and with orders in hand about 10 of us walked up the hill to 5th Gp HQ and were assigned to the various companies.
Went to the Company, was assigned a room in the barracks, went back to the Training Bn Barracks and moved my stuff to the other side of the sidewalk and up one building to the 5th Gp Barracks. Got moved into an eight man room with 4 beds, three made so I took the open one and settled in. Got finished and it was dark outside. Sat down on the bed and started wondering "Just what have I gotten myself into?"
Door bursts open, three scruffy looking characters walk in dressed in a mixture of civilian and military cloths with rucksacks, "Heyhowareya'whatsyournamegladtoseeya" pats on the back, other guys come into the room, handshakes, more intros, everybody gets cleaned up and we're off to Hay Street.
Felt like home.
Have no clue what the Nov 1974 class number was. Dropped my Jump School, SFQC and CDS diplomas off at my folks house for safe keeping were they disappeared. Everything else I kept in my briefcase.
you are an old timer, I was there in 80-84. i lived down on greenland Dr by hay st. I think i last my mind. phass 1 was tough.
terry
NousDefionsDoc
02-12-2010, 23:09
There were class numbers? I don't remember any class numbers. I remember Bear Martin, Richmond Nail, etc. I remember being cold and hot. I remember the green tick frame slamming into the back of my head when I would fall off the banks of the road. No class numbers though.
mark46th
02-18-2010, 19:05
Jerrel- I noticed the same thing when I got to group. No crap from the vets. It was more like, glad you are here, pay attention. This is your deal to either make or break.
5-82 here, WETSU (We Eat This Shit Up)
Anyway, I believe the number started when the Q course went to 8 starts, meaning 8 classes a yr instead of the usual 4-6. Yes a Parker deal.
250 Classes ago it was around 3-3.5 yrs ago, thats when it started.
longrange1947
02-20-2010, 08:13
I've been in SWC since 94 and can't answer this one. Hell, I have not been to MacKall since about the mid 90s, heard it has changed a might. :munchin :D
250/8=31.25.
So alittle over three yrs ago, the 8 start.
Ya do know Parker proclaimed himself to be "The father of modern day Special Forces" dont'cha??
What a load of crap.
250/8=31.25.
So alittle over three yrs ago, the 8 start.
Ya do know Parker proclaimed himself to be "The father of modern day Special Forces" dont'cha??
What a load of crap.
ooops, my math looks off...no wonder I wasn't a charlie:D
That would put it around 31 yrs ago, that dont sound right either.....unless it was the yr Parker went through, I guess it all began with him:eek:
ooops, my math looks off...no wonder I wasn't a charlie:D
That would put it around 31 yrs ago, that dont sound right either.....unless it was the yr Parker went through, I guess it all began with him:eek:
Don't remember them 41 years ago either - so I guess it will remain a mystery - guess somebody who knows him could ask Bear?
doctom54
02-20-2010, 21:37
He wore a glass eye most of the time, only wore the patch every now and again. The picture was taken around 1976ish at a place you have to carry a protective mask all the time. A 2 qt Canteen, mask on your left hip and a C in your cargo pocket - all set for a day's training.
Also, field hats were more personal choice - wouldn't be until the 80s where uniformity realy kicked in.
I carried one of those 110 instamatics for years. Lots of pictures but most of poor quality. Good picture of the cammies though. A little more "green" tint than the BDUs of a few years later. Old faded out sets worked well in deserts with some vegitation.
Great picture of Rodney. He usually used the glass eye in garrison but most of the time wore a patch in the field.
One time he broke his hand (can't remember how) but I went with him to Womack ER. They xrayed him and put a cast on. We went to the field a few days later and his hand swelled up the cast was too tight. The next drop I had them add some plaster cast material and padding. It made it in and I recast him in the field and on we went. He was tough.
BTW I still have a set of those cammies. Those and a set of dress greens I have kept through the years (not sure why?)
doctom54
02-20-2010, 21:44
I had to go look at my orders since I CRS. Class number was 4-77, 13 Sep 77. If the fourth one for the year finished in Sep it would seem there were only 5 or 6 that year.
x SF med
02-21-2010, 11:32
I got to Bragg In mid July 83 as an 11B... Graduated the Q in March 84. I was recycled in RS, you did not want to be the only 'contract' in a team of Rangers, and be an 11B acting as the 91B... guaranteed 'peer' - the instructors felt differently and made me go back through Sage in the dead of winter. C'est la guerre, n'est pas mes amis?
I think the class numbers back then were 1-YR starting Nov 1 based on fiscal year.
The Reaper
02-21-2010, 11:55
I got to Bragg In mid July 83 as an 11B... Graduated the Q in March 84. I was recycled in RS, you did not want to be the only 'contract' in a team of Rangers, and be an 11B acting as the 91B... guaranteed 'peer' - the instructors felt differently and made me go back through Sage in the dead of winter. C'est la guerre, n'est pas mes amis?
I think the class numbers back then were 1-YR starting Nov 1 based on fiscal year.
Hmm.
I always thought the FY for the U.S. started on 1 Oct.:D
The class numbers, IIRC, started with 1 for the first class of the new FY and proceed till the last class to start that FY.
They are now sequential.
TR
The Nbr/FY thing would make sense in an Army sort of way.
I still haven't found anything with a class number on any of my orders or diplomas and don't know how they kept track of us.
I got to SFTG Jan 71 for Phase 1 and our medic group completed all the 'gates' and 12 of us graduated SFTG Jun 72. The guys who were in our Phase 1 class and went through 11B/C, 12B, 05B training had all graduated and PCS'd to a Group long before us 91Bs did.
I'd be interested in knowing what my 'official' SFTG Class Number was as it must have been based on our Phase 3 (final UW phase) grouping. :confused:
Richard
DinDinA-2
02-21-2010, 15:37
In my permanent Personnel File, under Military Schooling, there is an entry of SFOC 2-73. Probably the second session in 1973. No other numbers, certificates or in file.
longrange1947
02-21-2010, 19:39
Just found my TDY orders to Fort Sam for 300F1.
Purpose: Attend Cl 69-5 Medical Aidman Crs (300-F-1)
These orders were dated 8 Oct 68. I am still looking for my 91A orders and 05B orders. :D
Now my hazardous duty orders for Medical OJT at Martin Army says class 4 but without a date, then again that is another section.
I can't find any other orders for that time right now. My diplomas have no class numbers on them at all. Only course and grad dates.
Mr Furious
02-21-2010, 21:51
Class 01-87
x SF med
02-21-2010, 22:32
Hmm.
I always thought the FY for the U.S. started on 1 Oct.:D
The class numbers, IIRC, started with 1 for the first class of the new FY and proceed till the last class to start that FY.
They are now sequential.
TR
Ah hell, I added an extras finger in doing the months to names... Sorry TR, I meant October... a brain -finger synapse paresthesia must have occurred... Nah, I just screwed up.
Does the MacKall gig pit still have the sign that Reads "Pain Purifies" as you enter and "Wanna Quit?" as you exit? Is there even a gig pit at MacKall anymore? I mean there are barracks out there now...
Last hard class
02-21-2010, 23:16
Started in Nov 83 and finished in April 84. Our class number in phase 3 was not the same as phase one and two. There was no break between phases. I do remember an unusually high number of people joining us at phase three. More than the normal medic additions. Maybe we meshed two classes?
We had quite a few Iraqi officers in our class. They were the good guys back then. I still remember a group of them sitting around a fire throwing on logs covered with poison oak and breathing in the smoke. No one offered to advise them this was a bad idea. They had performed extremely poorly during the course but knew they would not be terminated. (seems there was an incident with a Central American officer who recently failed the course) This gave them a fairly arrogant attitude. I suspect that changed some years later.
x SF med
02-22-2010, 09:20
Started in Nov 83 and finished in April 84. Our class number in phase 3 was not the same as phase one and two. There was no break between phases. I do remember an unusually high number of people joining us at phase three. More than the normal medic additions. Maybe we meshed two classes?
We had quite a few Iraqi officers in our class. They were the good guys back then. I still remember a group of them sitting around a fire throwing on logs covered with poison oak and breathing in the smoke. No one offered to advise them this was a bad idea. They had performed extremely poorly during the course but knew they would not be terminated. (seems there was an incident with a Central American officer who recently failed the course) This gave them a fairly arrogant attitude. I suspect that changed some years later.
That was your Team? I was one of the "add-ons" in Phase 3 to your class, as an 11B... A lot of the other guys coming in were medics that had just finished Med-Lab or Commo guys that finished up Code... back then - those were the two long courses...
It snowed on my team during the recon at the final objective...
I always thought the FY for the U.S. started on 1 Oct.:Prior to 74 or 75, the Federal FY began in July...one quarter was added to stretch the budget back around the time we were Whipping Inflation....More year, same money...that is a one-time, maybe two-time good deal...
longrange1947
02-26-2010, 13:58
Actaully, if I remember correctly, the Dems, at the time, swore that they could reach a budget agreement better if they had three more months to work on it.
Seems to have worked out well, what do you guys think? :munchin :D
Prior to 74 or 75, the Federal FY began in July...one quarter was added to stretch the budget back around the time we were Whipping Inflation....More year, same money...that is a one-time, maybe two-time good deal...
Remember the trick they used years ago when money was short. Payday used to be the last day of the month. To "save" money they moved payday to the first of September into "next year's" budget.
Didn't save any real money, just looked good on paper and they could only do it once.
greenberetTFS
03-06-2010, 12:32
Remember the trick they used years ago when money was short. Payday used to be the last day of the month. To "save" money they moved payday to the first of September into "next year's" budget.
Didn't save any real money, just looked good on paper and they could only do it once.
Speaking of money,when did they stop paying in "script" ? :confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
Last hard class
03-06-2010, 13:16
Speaking of money,when did they stop paying in "script" ? :confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
1973
Don't worry though, you can still convert MPC dollars into confederate money :D
rltipton
03-14-2010, 09:53
Wait a minute, assuming 7 classes per year then 247 classes only takes you back 35 years.
My diploma just has the dates 2 July - 21 November 1986 (signed by Col McClure and BG Guest)
Don't quote me on this, but if my memory serves me (and it often times does not) 7 classes per year has not always been the norm. There were 5 classes per year and sometimes 4 from the late 1980s through late 1990s much of the time with 6 or 7 only occasionally. I was in class 5-92 and the class behind us was 1-93.
Remember, SF was not hurting for bodies a lot of times and ran a lot of good guys out of SWC and sent them to division for years. There were also periods when they were completely unable to fill class seats and had to cancel and condense classes and had a surplus of students-in-wait hanging around for a class to start.
Anyway, if you repeat your math using an average of 4 to 6 (5) it puts class #1 in 1966'ish (didn't use a calculator so it may be off +/- a couple). That puts the date a little more in the ballpark of where it should be.
I am curious which class is considered as the official SFQC Class #1.
Edit: I know which class number I was in (5-92), but my diploma does not mention it, just dates and the course number.
Be safe,
Randy
There were also periods when they were completely unable to fill class seats and had to cancel and condense classes and had a surplus of students-in-wait hanging around for a class to start.
I was one of those nuckle-heads reporting everyday to the BN Staff Duty NCO, (two months).
Sometimes it was working in the office, wearing BDU's. Other times, it was the yellow banana PT gear on a work detail picking up pine cones, painting, or hanging new rope on obstackles at MacKall. Which by the way was a great way to G2 the grounds and plant caches on the land nav cource.
Of cource I never did that, it's just I heard some other fellas talk about it.
2018commo
03-14-2010, 16:58
I did phase one with 2-80, phase 3 with 3-80 due to code speed. 1-80 went out in late November, we went out in Feb. We called our selves the first easy class as CM had left for another outfit. I never met the man but his rep was bad assed, it was like the whole camp had exhaled. The TACs anounced the US beat the USSR (Hockey) on the loud speaker we thought it was psyops! I remember over twenty inches of snow at the end of phase 1, we ended up walking back to Mackall. We also had a guy struck by lightening in phase 3, he graduated but I heard he died later.
Back when the fiscal year started on July 1, each class was numbered beginning with the number one, followed by the fiscal year in which the funds were appropriated for that class. The next class was number 2 dash (FY), etc.
This could lead to the goofy situation of my Special Forces Officers Course, the first for Fiscal Year 1975 (Fiscal Year 1976 began on July 1, 1975 and ended June 30, 1976). We therefore were class "1-76," even though the class was conducted from September - December, entirely within calendar year 1975.
That changed in 1976, when the U.S. Government started the fiscal year on October 1.
I was in class 5-92 and the class behind us was 1-93.
Edit: I know which class number I was in (5-92), but my diploma does not mention it, just dates and the course number.
Be safe,
Randy
I got as far as Dish's memorial service info in my box of trinkets, and stopped. Hard to believe it's been 2 years since he passed away. I think that our class number is on the SFQC Graduation program.
The class behind us was 6-92, they started in Aug or Sep of 92 just prior to the fiscal year.
longrange1947
03-14-2010, 19:31
Remember, SF was not hurting for bodies a lot of times and ran a lot of good guys out of SWC and sent them to division for years.
Granted I retired in 90, but I don't ever remember SF not hurting for people. Hell in 3/7 in the 70s and 80s we had 4 to 7 guys per team. :eek:
Only once in my career did I ever have full team. Now money cut backs would cause a wind down in classes but not because we had enough guys. If I remember correctly. :D
rltipton
03-14-2010, 20:45
Granted I retired in 90, but I don't ever remember SF not hurting for people. Hell in 3/7 in the 70s and 80s we had 4 to 7 guys per team. :eek:
Only once in my career did I ever have full team. Now money cut backs would cause a wind down in classes but not because we had enough guys. If I remember correctly. :D
I hear you, and there were only 8 guys on my first team when I got to 2/3 in March 93.
Even so they were recycling less than 10% of the guys who bombed the 18D course before trauma 3 and only about 25% of the others went on to another MOS. They sent the vast majority "world-wide assignment."
My class started with 82, had 120 at one point from recycles. When I got booted, 2 others got booted to and that reduced my class to 7 TOTAL 18D students who went on to Ft Bragg. I passed trauma 3 (300-F1) and failed with 3 weeks left and I got orders to report to the 82nd.
I did not sign into 82nd. I went straight to the SWTG CSM (Kraus at the time I think) and begged to get into anything they had a slot for.
There were only a dozen or so of us from the 82/120 who bombed the medic course and got to stay in the Q. Most of them got sent packing to Ft Hood, Ft Polk, and Ft Lewis. 6 of us were assigned to Bragg. 4 signed right into division and never came back to the Q course, 1 other guy did what I did and got back in.
It sure felt like we were hurting for bodies when I finally got to my first team, but SWC sure wasn't acting like it. Some GOOD dudes got sent packing and ended up very successful in the conventional Army regardless.
Remember, SF was not hurting for bodies a lot of times and ran a lot of good guys out of SWC and sent them to division for years. There were also periods when they were completely unable to fill class seats and had to cancel and condense classes and had a surplus of students-in-wait hanging around for a class to start.
I am curious which class is considered as the official SFQC Class #1.
Be safe,
Randy
I know that I was out of training for 6 weeks after we finished the 05B course waiting for Phase 3 to start - not sure if that was because they were running too many clases or too few - that was spring of 69.
I only lasted one day at the slave market that time - they got me and Rodney T that first day and sent us - as I said earlier - to Mackall to build the - up until that time - non existant Obstacle Course :D
.......... Hell in 3/7 in the 70s and 80s we had 4 to 7 guys per team..................
Have you forgotten the time when they were going to cut one of the Groups but to save the HQs they cut the 6th team out of all the line companies.
Mad scramble for a real line number, excess people were sent off everywhere and the companies finally stablized.
Then when the 6th team came back the companies were immediately short on people.
Guys SCUBA (me) and HALO qualified could lean back and watch the scramble among the other three teams during the whole ordeal. It was not pretty.
Have you forgotten the time when they were going to cut one of the Groups but to save the HQs they cut the 6th team out of all the line companies.
Mad scramble for a real line number, excess people were sent off everywhere and the companies finally stablized.
Oh yeah - circa 1980-81 - ODA726 was a SCUBA team - we remained intact but were redesignated ODA724 while the previous members of ODA724 were dispersed throughout the B/C Team - it was how MG Lutz kept the 7th SFG on the 'books' when the Army was looking to cut a Group.
Richard
Green Light
04-06-2010, 15:12
In 1983, they reactivated (temporarily) 716, 726, and 736 for TF Label Field. I was in 5th Group at the time. I showed up for PT one morning and my Tm Sgt said he'd gotten a phone call the previous night (late) saying that I'd been transfered (late that night) from 5th to 7th Gp. Everyone they could find in the 5th who had ever spoken Spanish (or eaten a taco) showed up with me that morning at HHC 7th Gp. The 1SG wasn't sure what the heck was going on but he got orders that afternoon.
Anyway, those teams were sent to Honduras for 6 months just north of the Nic border. They got all of the equipment for the 6th teams out of the warehouse and sent us packing. When we got back, the teams were inactivated and we were absorbed into the companies in 1/7.
After WOCS, I went to your old team 724. It was a wreck - team sergeant was an old HALO instructor and could only skydive. I stayed there for two years and went to Panama. Best move I ever made.
BG Lutz was still there IIRC. His dropping one team per company probably saved SF. Taking us to two A/C groups would have been our death sentence. Heck, when the WAG (RIP) got rid of 11th and 12th later on (1990s) it hurt us enough. Ya think we could use two more SF groups today?[/drift]
When I graduated SFQC in 77, we were SFQC 01-77. I would imagine the actual class one would be sometime back in the early 0s.
cetheridge
04-14-2010, 14:29
My first post since joining...this thread seems like a good one to start with, since I too have been curious as to when class numbers were started. Thought I'd throw in my 2-cents worth. I went thru Phase I, Engineer Course (12B), and Phase III in 1968 and don't recall any SFQC class numbers at that time. At the end of PIII of the QC, 24 of us out of a class of about 150 received orders for the 8th Group, but first to Language (Spanish) School in Arlington. 40 years was quite some time ago and I don't remember everything ....hell, sometimes I can't remember what I did yesterday...need to take more Gingko.
Combat Diver
05-18-2010, 10:11
I started the Q in Mar 84 and would have gradulated Jul that year but broke my leg on infil. Was on medical hold til two classes later and gradulated Nov 84. My PIII team picture had a class date on it but its long away from me at my mothers house. Did have a Jordanian officer on that team that eventully was the Jordanian SF Commander last I saw of him. The first thing I remember when I went across post to 1/5th was reporting to the CSM Joe "Smoking Joe" Dennison for my company assignment.
When I reported out to Robin Sage in summer of 06 as an instructor that's when we went from 6 classes to 8 a year under Parker. Just went and checked my records and class 03-06 was the last class for FY 06 that started the 8 a year. Next class was 01-07.
CD
I started Phase I in about June of '83. Bad Bob took us on our first ruck run. I was thinking-damn, this is gonna be a loooooooong school.
They gave me a chicken and dropped me off at the lake for Survival, and some kid saw a snake, popped his flare, and burned down my straw hooch the next afternoon.
I think that was the only time in 11 years wearing the beanie that I was in any kind of danger.
I graduated the Q-course in July, 1982. My diploma says Class 4-82. Major Howard was the Phase I commander. BG Lutz signed my diploma and I think it was Nick Rowe who spoke at our graduation.
Time really flys when you're having fun.
FWIW
The program from my son's graduation ceremony reads:
Graduates of Class 04-05
The 214th class
23 Nov 2005
Beretverde
05-22-2010, 07:09
I did phase one with 2-80, phase 3 with 3-80 due to code speed. 1-80 went out in late November, we went out in Feb. We called our selves the first easy class as CM had left for another outfit. I never met the man but his rep was bad assed, it was like the whole camp had exhaled. The TACs anounced the US beat the USSR (Hockey) on the loud speaker we thought it was psyops! I remember over twenty inches of snow at the end of phase 1, we ended up walking back to Mackall. We also had a guy struck by lightening in phase 3, he graduated but I heard he died later.
CM was the senior TAC and Kaiser was his assistant. So long ago! But I never forgot CM and the big words (wallocker banana) and hydroplaning. I can remember that, but not the class number! Class motto "I sold my kids, divorced my wife, I'll be a Special forces Soldier for the rest of my life. Ruckers make better fuckers!"
...and Phase III in 1968 and don't recall any SFQC class numbers at that time. At the end of PIII of the QC, 24 of us out of a class of about 150 received orders for the 8th Group, but first to Language (Spanish) School in Arlington. 40 years was quite some time ago and I don't remember everything
....hell, sometimes I can't remember what I did yesterday...need to take more Gingko.
I hear you brother - what's worse, I now find that lots of stuff I remember. I've remembered wrong -somewhere over these 40 years a wire or two got crossed - hell, - that's damn frustrating.
Graduated April 89, Class 1-89. Nick Rowe had been assinated in the Phillipines shortly before our graduation IIRC.
I wonder how I could find out my class number?
It should be on your orders.
(You do still have your orders, don't you?)
Started in April of 84 finished in Sep, thought I was class 4-84 but it must have been 5-84? It doesn't say on the orders which awarded me the SF tab as well as the "S" SQI and I don't have my diploma handy. On the orders are some old names I haven't heard of since, Kevin Sherman, John Turnmire, Richard Weber, Jimmy Williams, Roger Aldrich, Russ Baker, Ken Bashke, myself, Howard Blecha, Vern Brown. All A Co, 1sr SPWAR TRNG BN (ABN). I came up from Ft. McClellan with another 95B, we were both Drill Sergeants. I had the Ash and Trash and he taught the MPs, wish I could remember his name.
Don,
Did you come straight to Tolz from TNg Gp? I remember you coming in about 85 (or am I just suffering from CRS?)
MVP
mojaveman
10-08-2010, 13:57
Started in April of 84 finished in Sep, thought I was class 4-84 but it must have been 5-84? It doesn't say on the orders which awarded me the SF tab as well as the "S" SQI and I don't have my diploma handy. On the orders are some old names I haven't heard of since, Kevin Sherman, John Turnmire, Richard Weber, Jimmy Williams, Roger Aldrich, Russ Baker, Ken Bashke, myself, Howard Blecha, Vern Brown. All A Co, 1sr SPWAR TRNG BN (ABN). I came up from Ft. McClellan with another 95B, we were both Drill Sergeants. I had the Ash and Trash and he taught the MPs, wish I could remember his name.
You were in class 4-84 Bennett. I know because I remember that we both got caught running the roads during pre-phase. :D
Those names that you mentioned sure brang back some memories. Wish that I could do it all over again knowing what I know now.
What roads? Next you'll be saying we cached our rucks or made temp plates of the punches at each land nav stake? I think it was Gene Wilson that caught us, we where on a 013 together in 88 along with his wing man Mark (Coach) Helt. I went to Devens first and then to Tolz in 86. Sure would be easier if I could see real names and pictures, you can put the black stripe infront of your eyes if you are still hiding from your first wives.
I wonder how I could find out my class number?
It should be on your orders.
(You do still have your orders, don't you?)
I guess I wasn't clear, I meant the orders that sent you to the school. The orders you used to file for travel. And the class number might be on the hazardous duty orders putting you on jump status while at the school.
Green Light
10-08-2010, 15:42
I think it was Gene Wilson that caught us, we where on a 013 together in 88 along with his wing man Mark (Coach) Helt.
Was Helt in 2/5th before he went to the 10th? There was a guy who was an engineer on another team in my company whose name was Helt (pretty sure his name was Mark). We both got selected for E7 on the same list in 83 (we celebrated quietly together - a lot of guys weren't as lucky). He was an engineer IIRC. Really great guy. Lost track when they had the 7th Group draft that July.
Combat Diver
10-09-2010, 00:36
Started in April of 84 finished in Sep, thought I was class 4-84 but it must have been 5-84? It doesn't say on the orders which awarded me the SF tab as well as the "S" SQI and I don't have my diploma handy. On the orders are some old names I haven't heard of since, Kevin Sherman, John Turnmire, Richard Weber, Jimmy Williams, Roger Aldrich, Russ Baker, Ken Bashke, myself, Howard Blecha, Vern Brown. All A Co, 1sr SPWAR TRNG BN (ABN). I came up from Ft. McClellan with another 95B, we were both Drill Sergeants. I had the Ash and Trash and he taught the MPs, wish I could remember his name.
I started the Q in Mar/Apr 84 also, but broke my leg jumping in Robin Sage in Jul that year, recycled and graduated just before Thanksgiving. Howard Blecha went to C/1/5 on ODA 532. We went to the 82nd Jumpmaster course from Campbell together in 87'. Don't know where he went when I went to Tolz in 88'.
CD
There were class numbers? I don't remember any class numbers. I remember Bear Martin, Richmond Nail, etc. I remember being cold and hot. I remember the green tick frame slamming into the back of my head when I would fall off the banks of the road. No class numbers though.
Funny, I don't remember my class number either, but if you remember Tim Martin, we were in the same class!
Tim and I got caught talking to each other on the day land nav. It was obvious that we were both looking for the same bench marker and after about 20 minutes, Tim whispered to me, "Hey, do you know where we are?" I replied, "You're the fucking Ranger!"
A tac wearing a full ghillie suit rose off the ground and said, "Gentlemen, cards." He wrote a big "NO GO" on our cards and sent us back. Had to make up all of day points at night, along with our night points to pass. We both made it.
Don’t remember the class number but graduated in late February or early March 89. We had a lovely winter wonderland in the Uwharrie with alternating rain, snow, rain, and snow again until a truely obnoxious winter snow storm decided to really make it fun. My tac was a big fella (and former LRRP I seem to recall) named Cristman. We had a few guys go hypothermic that night...what fun it was....jd
Snaquebite
12-07-2010, 20:04
Since there is no class number on my certificate, I finally went through all my old orders...no class number there either....Grad 08/73
There are 11 folks in my class photo.
greenberetTFS
12-07-2010, 20:21
ODA 226,
Tim whispered to me, "Hey, do you know where we are?" I replied, "You're the fucking Ranger!".....................This just made my day...... ;)
Don't remember my class number either,not on my orders,certificate,nothing......:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
Ambush Master
12-07-2010, 20:22
Since there is no class number on my certificate, I finally went through all my old orders...no class number there either....Grad 08/73
There are 11 folks in my class photo.
I'm the same!! Grad 05-06/70
Later
Martin
ODA CDR (RET)
12-11-2010, 16:37
14 Nov 83 - 4 Apr 84, I think this was the first Tab class. Didn't see the 18 MOS till promotion orders to SSG.
Last hard class
12-11-2010, 18:23
14 Nov 83 - 4 Apr 84, I think this was the first Tab class. Didn't see the 18 MOS till promotion orders to SSG.
This was my class as well. I do not remember being awarded the tab right away. As a candy striper going in, I was just happy to have a full flash.
Edited:
Question answered. Thanks.
I read through this thread and it got me to thinking and then to looking and I finally found my diploma. There is not mention of a class number, just the SFQC graduation date of 1 February 1982. I have no idea where the orders are. I never remember any of the instructors referring to us by class number. It was never like Ranger school where it was drilled into your head several dozen times per day.
As a reference point, all that I usually have to do is to mention that my Phase 1 class was the one where about 20 guys were caught going to town to buy food during the team survival training. Major Howard pulled everyone out of their hootches at about 1 am and had "everyone" stand formation while the Tm Ldrs did a head count. Every Tm Ldr said, "All present." Maj. Howard, a little more forcefully this time, told the Tm Ldrs to do a recount and again they reported the same, "All present."
Maj. Howard walked quietly back and forth in front of the formation without saying a word, just stroking his chin. He looked at the formation, turned on his heels and started to walk back to the FLA that he arrived in. We all thought that it was a done deal and we would soon be able to go back to our hootches. Instead he opened the rear doors of the FLA, dragged out, by the ear, two of our fellow students and asked, "Well then, who the hell do these two belong to?"
After some recounting and excuses made it turns out that about 20 guys were missing and their names were given. They moved the rest of us down the road a ways and all of the instructors went into the woods waiting for the return of the still missing. It was quite a show. That was the first time that I ever saw star clusters and parachute flares being used as weapons. The instructors were just launching them parallel to the ground right as the other students were returning and then running for their future SF lives.
There were many excuses as to why they were not in formation: "I was looking for onions in that field to make the goat taste better"; "I went to take a dump and got turned around in the woods"; etc. If I remember correctly only a few were booted, most were recycled.
I will not judge them though. There was a rumor that floated around that perhaps I and two others actually started the nocturnal missions from Camp Mackall during my Phase 1. If nothing else, I never was caught and I, at least, returned with a case of beer. I'll bet those bottles are still buried behind the old shower point if they have not entirely remodeled Camp Mackall.
Thomas
gmayor18
05-04-2011, 20:53
ZonieDiver and Mitch, sounds like we shared some times. I finished Phase III in late March 70 also. Our jump was cancelled going into McCall because of rain, so got trucked out. Coming back in I remember they marched us over to the statue and said a few words and gave the command "Don Berets". Got assigned to 5th Gp B Team and had SGM Plyant, and his sidekick Lonnie Newsome. They spend there days setting in the 8 man barracks room (converted to office) and sent us on details everyday. As a 12B, Plyant took us up to western NC and got two deuce loads of slate and we built the patio out back of the barracks, summer of 71. Some others on the B team were , Ladder, Legg, and Reed. We all got assigned at same time.
Jump school was January 1969 and the class was 69-9.
My orders for Training Group, dated 1 February 1969, does not indicate a class number.
It was a cold winter that year my friends, ice storms had camp Mackall a mess.
FYI ... My military free fall course was completed, 2 May 1970 , the certificate shows course # 4-70.
JOgershok
10-21-2013, 12:03
I graduated from SFQC on 9 DEC 73 but do not remember the class number. We started Camp McCall in AUG 1973. I am trying to get a class photo for my buddy Bill CAIN. I do not have one. Anyone able to help PM me or sent to JOgershok at AOL dot COM. Thanks.
SFTG Dec. 67. No diploma, don't remember any class numbers.
Went to 6th and 1049'd for 5th the 1st day.