View Full Version : Let's talk shooting schools
rubberneck
07-25-2004, 12:03
Recently I managed to get the not so great state of New Jersey to issue me a CCW. For those of you who don't know it is near impossible for a civilian to get a CCW, as a matter of fact I will be one of roughly 500 regular joes with the right to carry in this state. I guess I caught the right judge one just the right day.
Any how I came to realize rather belatedly that I don't have the training necessary for me to be effective carrying so I decided that some high quality concealed training is in order before I carry for the first time.
From what I have read, members of your community have opportunity to train from time to time with various private shooting schools. I was hoping that some of you have had the experience and could reccommend a good shooting school.
There are so many out there and it is hard to tell the good from the bad or those that might be a little over hyped. I am looking for a school who's instructors have real world experience, who's instructors actually know how to teach and school that stresses fundamentals and stays away from all the HSLD BS that a civilian doesn't need to know. I don't need a school with world class facilites with kill houses and 1000 yard ranges. Finally hopefully either the school or their instructors offer classes within 1 days drive of NJ.
I have been told to look at Blackwater, Frontsite, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Jeff Gonzolez, Mid-South and a couple of others but those reccomendations have come from your run of the mill gun shop Rambos.
The Reaper
07-25-2004, 12:45
Mid-South. Closest and tunes toward what you want.
Gunsite.
Thunder Ranch.
TR
Rotor Strike
07-25-2004, 15:33
I have good friends that have done all three. I'd agree that Mid-south is probably tuned to what you are looking for.
rubberneck
07-25-2004, 15:47
Thanks.
NousDefionsDoc
07-25-2004, 17:06
What weapon and what do you do for a living?
rubberneck
07-26-2004, 07:10
I own three handguns. A Browning Hi-Power, A sig P229 and a Springfield Loaded. I am not sure but I think I will carry the Sig most of the time and the Hi-Power every now and then. I run a company that represents industrial manufacturer's of building supplies. Not very exciting but its an honest living.
Team Sergeant
07-26-2004, 08:19
Originally posted by rubberneck
I own three handguns. A Browning Hi-Power, A sig P229 and a Springfield Loaded. I am not sure but I think I will carry the Sig most of the time and the Hi-Power every now and then.
Do yourself a favor. Stay with one CCW gun. Until you can load, unload, assemble, disassemble, function check etc etc etc the weapon in your sleep don’t keep changing pieces. Stick with one piece or a variant of the same gun. You’ll thank me if you ever have to use it.
I’ve said this somewhere on here already, but have you looked into some NRA pistol classes? Sometimes you’ll find someone like me holding an NRA Pistol Instructors certification doing the teaching.
Good luck on finding a school.
TS
NousDefionsDoc
07-26-2004, 09:10
What the TS said about rotating pistols.
I would go to a "Pistol I" course from Mid-south to start off with. Close and most of the starting courses are pretty much the same, as long as they are from reputable people. See how you like it.
Sacamuelas
07-26-2004, 09:55
It sounds like NDD is referring to the weekend pistol only course at MidSouth.
-expect 1500 rounds of pistol downrange in two days . :cool:
Other option is the five day practical course which includes pistol, carbine, and shotgun instruction.
http://www.weaponstraining.com/pages/courses.htm
This is not THAT far from me. Thanks for the recommendation TR, TS, and NDD.
rubberneck
07-26-2004, 10:16
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Do yourself a favor. Stay with one CCW gun. Until you can load, unload, assemble, disassemble, function check etc etc etc the weapon in your sleep don’t keep changing pieces. Stick with one piece or a variant of the same gun. You’ll thank me if you ever have to use it.
I’ve said this somewhere on here already, but have you looked into some NRA pistol classes? Sometimes you’ll find someone like me holding an NRA Pistol Instructors certification doing the teaching.
Good luck on finding a school.
TS
Thanks for the advice about sticking with one gun. The problem is that I like the Hi-Power better than the P229 but the gun has had the magazine disconnect removed and has also had a trigger job. I was told by a couple LEO around here that if I ever use the gun in self defense the prosecutors will use this fact as evidence that I was "reckless". The 1911 is to big for me to carry without printing.
I have looked at the two NRA instructors in my area when I first decided to buy a handgun. The first guy went on and on about how I would be trained just like our Special Operations troops and would be proficient at CQB by the end of his week long course. The only problem with that is I don't need to be proficient at CQB and the guy has military or LE training.
The second instructor is a retired LEO with 18 years SWAT experience. I went with him but he tunred out to be next to useless. He read from the NRA handbook in a monotone voice and an air of disinterest. When we finally hit the range he disappeared for 20 minutes and then offered no feedback. When I asked him why I was low and left he said you are anticipating recoil. Never offered any tips how to over come it. After two hours I packed up and left.
Which now brings me to the point where I am at. I want guys with real world experience and who can relate to their students. I don't mind spending the cash I just want first rate training. I would hate like hell to spend gobs of cash only to be taught incorrectly and to have to spend months undoing the muscle memory.
From the great feedback here I will look closely at Mid-South and possibly at Thunder Ranch. Thanks for the advice.
Originally posted by rubberneck
I have been told to look at Blackwater, Frontsite, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Jeff Gonzolez, Mid-South and a couple of others but those reccomendations have come from your run of the mill gun shop Rambos. [/B]
IMHO, Mid-South would be first choice but slots for training are tight these days. Any of the above would also serve as good shooting schools. You might also want to give consideration of attending one of the LFI courses as they provide the best curriculum for educating citizens concerning legal and potential liabilities if you ever have to use lethal force against another.
Go to a gun school to learn how to shoot, go to the LFI school to learn how you stay out of jail or lawsuites if you ever do have to use your weapon in self defense.
NousDefionsDoc
07-26-2004, 11:39
Thanks for the advice about sticking with one gun. The problem is that I like the Hi-Power better than the P229 but the gun has had the magazine disconnect removed and has also had a trigger job. I was told by a couple LEO around here that if I ever use the gun in self defense the prosecutors will use this fact as evidence that I was "reckless".
Ok, first of all and defering to any lawyers that have worked SD cases - BS. Youy can very easily show proof that the trigger job was done to improve accuracy, which shows the opposite of reckless. Mag safety is a little different, but there is plenty of precedent on this as well.
But anyway, what can be done can be undone. Go have the mag safety re-installed and get a different trigger job. Trigger on a combat handgun shouldn't be too light anyway.
Sacamuelas
07-26-2004, 11:44
About Midsouth...
Got an email from Jim Cowan of Mid-South Institute of Self-Defense Shooting, Inc. this morning. Concerning the scheduled classes availability:
At the present time, we are completely booked through the end of 2004 and well into 2005. We do not have any 2-Day Weekend classes scheduled at this time. If there is a change in World Events, then our schedule will open up.
Thanks
I then asked him about the 3day pistol portion or the 5 day practical course openings for a single participant. The reply.
Not at this time. We are working with the Military at this time and they do not let anyone else train with them.
Well, that about says it all about any individuals going to Midsouth. You are only going if your specific military unit is going. :boohoo
Team Sergeant
07-26-2004, 13:13
I guess its time to open another shooting school....
What you think Guy?:D
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I guess its time to open another shooting school....
What you think Guy?:D
I live in a state that would have a fit...if we were to start a combat shooting course.
We are looking at moving in the future to someplace that has NO SNOW! I can't stand the cold.:D
Roguish Lawyer
07-26-2004, 13:55
There are some LAPD SWAT guys running a school in LA. I'll go find the link again and add it in a minute.
http://www.intltactical.com/
I am kind of in the same position, in that, several months ago I applied for and recieved my Concealed Handgun Permit. I really want to get better trained prior to carrying. It has been 12 years since I touched any weapon. Even worse is that I do not even own a handgun yet. I am still researching options at this point.
The Reaper
07-26-2004, 14:17
Gents, as observed earlier, you don't need to be SWAT trained, you just need to be capable of defending yourself legally and competently with your chosen carry weapon.
You will not be breaching, stacking, arresting, or conducting follow-on operations.
For legal reasons (if not moral), I recommend learning to use verbal and physical compliance measures, non-lethal weapons, and a flashlight with your weapons.
You may even wish to have the name and number of an attorney on you, or have one on retainer.
This is not a playground fight, or a cowboy western.
TR
Smokin Joe
07-26-2004, 14:42
BTW just to touch on what TR has stated.
The more trainings and experiences you have the less you appear to be "a reasonable man" in the eyes of the law.
I.E. a reitred SF soldier has had significant training in self defense and the deployment of personal weapons.
So if a retired SF soldier shoots someone they will need to be able to show all of the lesser means they tried to use to neutralize and de-escualte the situation before they acutally neutralized their attacker.
Its called Preclusion.....if you ever have to use self defense you better know what it means and how it is applied.
TR & SJ:
Right on the money! I tell people all the time to practice "AVOIDFU".
Once a bullet heads downrange...ain't no calling it back.
swatsurgeon
07-26-2004, 16:50
Rubberneck,
as a civilian I can offer 2 cents .........
www.pgpft.com he's real world, practical, non-active duty marine (other Q.P.'s please don't hurt me!!!!) that fits the bill you are asking for.. I've trained at Blackwater, with Trident Concepts, Yavapi and our very own Team Sargeant.....if you could get to TS, it would be worth the investment, otherwise for the level of training I think you're looking for, a 5-6 hr drive to Lewisburg West Virginia may pay the best dividends.
just my humble opinion. Once you get more instruction under your belt, go for the big schools and excel.....take from themm all you can, but you'll be at a level to appreciate the higher level of education.
Good morning
What do you guys/gals think of LFI? I read a bit abotr Ayoob a few years back and have worked with a student of his who was fairly competant.
Just curious, not suggesting it.
Hoepoe
rubberneck
07-27-2004, 09:25
Originally posted by swatsurgeon
Rubberneck,
as a civilian I can offer 2 cents .........
www.pgpft.com he's real world, practical, non-active duty marine (other Q.P.'s please don't hurt me!!!!) that fits the bill you are asking for.. I've trained at Blackwater, with Trident Concepts, Yavapi and our very own Team Sargeant.....if you could get to TS, it would be worth the investment, otherwise for the level of training I think you're looking for, a 5-6 hr drive to Lewisburg West Virginia may pay the best dividends.
just my humble opinion. Once you get more instruction under your belt, go for the big schools and excel.....take from themm all you can, but you'll be at a level to appreciate the higher level of education.
Doc, thanks for the link but it isn't working for me.
Team Sergeant
07-27-2004, 09:46
Originally posted by rubberneck
Doc, thanks for the link but it isn't working for me.
RN,
The link is good. Somethings up at your end.
TS
SERPENT5XX
07-31-2004, 15:28
Rubberneck,
Mid-South is probably the best civilian shooting school there is IMHO. I have been lucky enough to have attended several times on the military’s dime, and I have also spent my own time and money to go there. Members of my unit are alive today because of the training they have received there. Most of its clients are military members attending training as units. As a policy Mid-South will NOT mix civilians students with the military students and usually only will mix military units with other military units upon approval between each other. Before GWOT they ran an occasional “open” class and some weekend classes for individuals be they civilian, military or LEO. Now days they are pretty much booked solid and there are literally waiting lists to get in. They have decided to give priority to the military at this time. While you are waiting to get a slot at Mid-South I can also recommend Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, and the Chapman Academy. I have been to all of these and can vouch for their instruction. I have not received training at Blackwater but have used the facility and it is nice. These schools are not inexpensive. (How much is your life worth?). I would also recommend looking into some of the traveling instructors out there. There are several that are good and travel around to various ranges that sponsor them. If I were in your shoes I would look into a couple of 2 or 3- day courses in your general area and use them as a spring-board for some of the 5- day courses at the before mentioned schools. The bottom line is to attend as many QUALITY schools as you can, compare what they teach and determine what works best for you and then practice often. Do NOT get bogged down in "Cult of Personality" or "Cult of Doctrine"! Try lots of different techniques. There are several different ways to do things. Some work better for certain situations/individuals than others do. You will figure this out as you go. It will be part of your journey. Remember there are several aspects to training to use your firearm to save your life, some are:
1) Marksmanship (the mechanical manipulation of the weapon to put rounds on target)
2) Tactics (the physical process of how to actually shot/move/communicate while the bad guys is moving around trying to kill you, hitting him while trying to keep him from hitting you)
3) Mindset (having the proper mental attitude to survival someone trying to take your life and doing what ever it takes to stop them including kill them).
Good luck and have fun!!!
SERPENT5XX
rubberneck
07-31-2004, 15:45
I would like to thank everyone who responded to this thread. There is lots of good material here. Now it is just a matter of finding the time and the cash to go to one of these schools.
SERPENT5XX
08-02-2004, 08:35
FrontSite,
I could not agree more about John Skaggs. He is great instructor and is uncanny in his ability to diagnose and provide corrections for shooting errors.
SERPENT5XX
I hope this is the proper place and way to ask this question. I am a civilian looking for a shooting school in or near Louisiana (I'm in the Baton Rouge area). I have found many places that offer the minimum training needed for CCW permits, but not much more. With a recent rise in crime in my neighborhood I am interested in becoming proficient with my pistol and possibly shotgun as well. If any of you know of a school that would be appropriate your reccomendation would certainly be appreciated.
Team Sergeant
06-05-2009, 08:59
I hope this is the proper place and way to ask this question. I am a civilian looking for a shooting school in or near Louisiana (I'm in the Baton Rouge area). I have found many places that offer the minimum training needed for CCW permits, but not much more. With a recent rise in crime in my neighborhood I am interested in becoming proficient with my pistol and possibly shotgun as well. If any of you know of a school that would be appropriate your reccomendation would certainly be appreciated.
Go to the NRA webpage: http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/index.asp
Use that as a starting point. Most NRA instructors are good for the basics and from there you can find real shooters/instructors.
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75
If you can get into one of Paul Gomez's or SouthNarc's classes, don't hesitate.
Smokin Joe
06-05-2009, 11:52
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75
If you can get into one of Paul Gomez's or SouthNarc's classes, don't hesitate.
I concur
Blitzzz (RIP)
06-05-2009, 12:08
pyreaux. Don't waste money on some high speed shooter's course that in the end will note by used by you in Group. Learn first single hand shooting (bulls eye shooting), do it with both hands and get as good as you can get with. Then when time come to learn some SOP and technique your pure shooting skills will facilitate ease in learning other techniques. Just My Twie centavos.
TS,Razor,Joe,Blitzzz
Thanks for the help.
roscoemac
06-08-2009, 16:47
I have trained with a guy named John Farnam. He is an ex Marine who travels quite a bit around the country and abroad giving shooting classes. He is well known and respected in the shooting instructor community. I have taken three different classes from him and found them to be excellent. He teaches safety, good gun handling techniques, verbal challenges, and levels of force to be used and when, i.e. pepper spray, light usage, etc. He has a site on the internet at defense-training.com in case you are interested. I found it to be convenient since he shows up every year at Coreopolis, Pa. (near Pittsburgh) and I live nearby. He also periodically does a course for the Marine Corps. If you are interested check out his internet site for his schedule of courses and their location. It will cost you a few bucks but well worth it in my humble opinion.