View Full Version : General: Drop Bayonet From Army Training
BMT (RIP)
01-28-2010, 07:22
http://www.military.com/news/article/general-drop-bayonet-from-army-training.html?ESRC=eb.nl
BMT
I don't see how removing bayonet training from the curriculum would free up that much more time for training other tasks. IIRC when I went through basic a few years back bayonet training was only one or two days long.
I think the benefits of bayonet training are not to make a Soldier a competent dummy-sticker but rather the sense of accomplishment a Soldier gets from running screaming through the Bayonet Assault Course. I think it's a pretty important step in the transition from civilian to soldier and helps instill that all important warrior mindset.
".....Hertling also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.
Recruits need to learn how to use their hands, the St. Louis native said. "A greater majority of recruits have never been in a fistfight," he added......."
Well, OK then who's fault is that. Drinking and Hay Street used to take care of that last item.
Look at the way kids are raised today - this all starts with no Dodge Ball in the younger years.
This boils down to "Do you want a Warrier mentality or something else?"
"What's the purpose of the bayonet?" "TO KILL, DRILL SERGEANT"
"What's the purpose of the pencil?" "Well, Drill Sergeant, you could use it to write a memo but it could also be used to..............."
Armor officer....:rolleyes:
Armor officer....:rolleyes:
And completely out of touch...
"What's the purpose of the bayonet?" "TO KILL, DRILL SERGEANT[S]"
Oh! There’s a comma in the middle of that phrase. No wonder I spent so much time holding my M-14 in the “thrust” position. :D
Pat
Utah Bob
01-28-2010, 10:16
I've got an idea. We'll build a fighter and call it the Phantom. We won't put any guns on it because they're old school and all the air to air combat from now on will be missiles so there's no need for old timey guns on the plane and.......:rolleyes:
Soldiers threatening to kill someone with knives whose blades are longer than 2" - a nightmare for the TSA, DHS, and any number of local school boards - not to mention a few Drills I've known. Is this GO fixing to retire and run for office...or maybe he and Lorena Bobbit are gonna start a company and get one of those lucrative govt contracts to 'outsource' the combat cutlery training program for the DOD. :rolleyes:
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
mojaveman
01-28-2010, 10:38
Well, OK then who's fault is that. Drinking and Hay Street used to take care of that last item.
Hey Pete,
I heard that the city of Fayetteville cleaned up Hay St. to include closing Rick's Lounge. :(
craigepo
01-28-2010, 11:11
"Madam, I regret to inform you that your son has been killed in action, because his position was overrun, and he and his unit: (a) knew neither how to attach their bayonets to their rifles, nor how to use them, or (b) were not issued bayonets because they are no longer part of the Army inventory."
Either answer sucks and is not acceptable.
“…In today's wars, there's no reason for Soldiers to learn how to fix bayonets to their rifles and disembowel an enemy combatant, Hertling said….”
Evidently the Brits didn’t get the word: http://www.army.mod.uk/news/17035.aspx
greenberetTFS
01-28-2010, 12:50
".....Hertling also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.
Recruits need to learn how to use their hands, the St. Louis native said. "A greater majority of recruits have never been in a fistfight," he added......."
Well, OK then who's fault is that. Drinking and Hay Street used to take care of that last item.
Look at the way kids are raised today - this all starts with no Dodge Ball in the younger years.
This boils down to "Do you want a Warrier mentality or something else?"
"What's the purpose of the bayonet?" "TO KILL, DRILL SERGEANT"
"What's the purpose of the pencil?" "Well, Drill Sergeant, you could use it to write a memo but it could also be used to..............."
Excellent post Pete,couldn't have said it any better........:D:D:D
Big Teddy :munchin
Hey Pete,
I heard that the city of Fayetteville cleaned up Hay St. to include closing Rick's Lounge. :(
Up the street a block Ricks held out for a few more years but by around 1987 just about everything on the 500 block was gone. The last hold out was Rosie's on the south side.
greenberetTFS
01-28-2010, 13:05
“…In today's wars, there's no reason for Soldiers to learn how to fix bayonets to their rifles and disembowel an enemy combatant, Hertling said….”
Evidently the Brits didn’t get the word: http://www.army.mod.uk/news/17035.aspx
I wish it was possible to sent this to that General's email or facebook or what ever to let him see it's still possible to use the bayonet in combat.....:( Any ideas of how this might be done? :confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
ZonieDiver
01-28-2010, 17:56
Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.
First day in the "Hand-to-Hand 'Pit'" at Camp Mackall, SFC Martin (that's "Hand-to-Hand" Martin, not "Bear" Martin) told us from the get-go that as far as he was concerned, the title of his class was misleading. He actually said, "There ain't no such thing as hand-to-hand combat. That is exactly the reason God invented sticks and rocks and such."
He did, however, instruct the class in the "spirit of the bayonet" - which is as has been previously stated - "Kill!"
<rant on> To me, this is much like PADI's removal of "buddy breathing" from the Open Water Scuba Diver course in the 90's and making it "optional." It has recently been removed - banned - from the course. Equipment can't fail! No need to learn difficult skills. (It is time for me to become an "emeritus" instructor.) <rant off>
mark46th
01-28-2010, 19:03
Well, The guys can take a roll of duct tape and tape their Yarborough Knives to their rifles....
Dragbag036
01-28-2010, 20:58
Well I remember about 20 years ago, when Drill Sgt Hughs said "sound off with what you want to be in the future?" we replied "Expert Infantry" then he said spirit of the bayonet and we said "to kill, to kill with cold blue steel" he replied "whirl......whirl....."
WTF....what is up with the future of our forces? Has everyone gone mad? Jihadis, (like Charlie) are out there training, and we are trying to get out of it. Playing Call of Duty 2 is not going to make the American soldier harder, the occasional trip off the couch doesn't prepare you to hump a ruck in any environment.
my .00002 cents
One question, but if the bayonet training is removed, couldn't individual units just teach it to their soldiers?
Never been in a line unit, have you - prioritization of 'must do' tasks from higher HQs would normally mean bayonet training would be taught...about never.
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
I wish it was possible to sent this to that General's email or facebook or what ever to let him see it's still possible to use the bayonet in combat.....:( Any ideas of how this might be done? :confused:FWIW,
TRADOC Public Affairs, monr-tradocpao@conus.army.mil
We do respond to email inquiries if they are appropriate inquiries. We will acknowledge that we have received your email, and what initial action we are taking with it, within two business days. Response time to resolve the issue will depend on the issue, but we pledge to give the matter the attention it warrants.And http://twitter.com/mark_hertling
And http://www.facebook.com/people/Mark-Hertling/100000496844767
HTH.
AngelsSix
01-28-2010, 21:58
Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...
Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.:p
As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.
On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?
When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!
Jus' sayin'.......
Never been in a line unit, have you - prioritization of 'must do' tasks from higher HQs would normally mean bayonet training would be taught...about never.
jaded $.02 :munchinBayonet training makes excellent PT, if incorporated with rifle drill...I've done that as a company commander...truth be told, 20 years ago, when I was commanding an infantry company in Alaska, our bayonet range was in pretty bad repair...I doubt that anyone above me in the chain of command would have objected had I substituted bayonet training for the daily dozen...but that was (over) twenty years ago...
What concerns me is that a general officer who would have been a peer at times in my career feels that bayonet training has no military application...in my opinion, neither does running in formation, but I'd bet a week's pay he's big into that...probably a big proponent of COO, as well...
Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...
Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.:p
As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.
On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?
When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!
Jus' sayin'.......
And those are the people who will be lying on the ground dead if it comes to hand to hand. If I'm out of bullets I want to be able to do more than punch, kick and bite someone. Give me knife, club, 2x4, E-tool. I'm going out fighting and I'm taking as many of those bastards out as I can before I go down. SOBs aren't getting a chance to cut my head off with a dull knife.
This General most likely thinks you need to spit shine your boots in the field too. God knows you have to look good while shooting at someone just in case there is a reporter around or a visiting dignitary.
Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.Let's say you do not wish to shoot your adversary because you don't want to wake up his buddies...bayonets are handy for that...and just if the other guy has bullets and you don't, you can still steal the intiative with a bayonet in close quarters...
As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.I'm not a cop...never been one, ain't never gonna be one...but I've been an infantryman, my dad was an infantryman and I know for a fact that sometimes the bad guys get real close to you, in spite of your effots to the contrary...the mission of the infantry is to close with and destroy the enemy by means of fire and manuever...the very definition lends itself to close combat...cop-infantry not same-same...
On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet? We encountered tunnels and trenches in Vietnam...caves in Afghanistan...
To paraphrase an old adage, professional soldiers are predictable but wars are fought by amateurs...and since that will always be the case, I vote for having a bayonet...
We train soldiers in hand to hand and I don't see that on the cut list...and bayonet training does instill a sense of urgency in troops, if done properly...
Dragbag036
01-28-2010, 22:34
Bayonet training makes excellent PT, if incorporated with rifle drill...I've done that as a company commander...truth be told, 20 years ago, when I was commanding an infantry company in Alaska, our bayonet range was in pretty bad repair...I doubt that anyone above me in the chain of command would have objected had I substituted bayonet training for the daily dozen...but that was (over) twenty years ago...
What concerns me is that a general officer who would have been a peer at times in my career feels that bayonet training has no military application...in my opinion, neither does running in formation, but I'd bet a week's pay he's big into that...probably a big proponent of COO, as well...
Not only does it make for excellent pt, but it is also a psych thing. Who here, who was infantry, and did not let your mind run free and actually imagine stabbing someone with your bayonet when you were in basic? Just like we changed targets from circles to actual silhouettes to increase the ability of the American Soldier to not just squeeze the trigger, but to aim and kill the enemy combatant. On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society ~Dave Grossman (Author). Sometimes people kill because they are afraid, but also it is the pursuit to ingrain the training for whatever task, to make it where the brain has some sort of experience to fall back on in the time of crisis. Does that mean that it is second nature...no. We know it takes 1000's of time to do that, but if you have done something before, or even come into contact with it, the brain recognizes it and processes it to give you the ability to visualize the outcome and decide a course of action.
Utah Bob
01-28-2010, 22:52
Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...
Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.:p
As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.
On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?
When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!
Jus' sayin'.......
Ground combat is still a dirty brutal business despite the marvelous armored things, UAVs, and artillery.
When you're in a cave or a house and you just expended a mag on three bad guys and a fourth rushes you it's nice to have a blade on the end of your thunderstick. Even if the other guy has bullets you still have a fighting chance.
I've been a cop and am well aware of the "Don't let anyone get inside your reactionary gap" philosophy. In a war, that just doesn't work. Trust me.
The parallels between being a street cop and a combat soldier are few.
Cops apprehend. Soldiers kill.
The bayonet is still a viable weapon in those nasty bloody places where men fight to the death in close quarters.
I would agree that bayonet training is probably not necessary..........for the Air Force.:p
craigepo
01-28-2010, 22:56
Angel Six---good question
Initially, let me begin by saying thank you for your service, both as a law enforcement officer and in the Air Force.
My explanation regarding the necessity of bayonet training lies in the fact that the Army's mission differs greatly from either law enforcement or the Air Force. When I was in the Army, the Army's mission was, essentially, to move to, close with, and destroy the enemy by means of fire and manuever. Clearly, law enforcement has no such mission, and inasmuch as the Air Force has a similar mission, that mission is conducted in the air, not on the ground.
While technology has greatly evolved since the beginning of warfare, one thing remains the same: we do not hold a piece of ground until we have a soldier standing upon that piece of ground, guarding it with a rifle.
We issue our soldiers tools a.k.a. weapons, to help them complete their mission. Again, technology is great, and our warfighting technology is superb. However, what good is close-air support during a storm that reduces visibility to zero? Similarly, what good is a rifle when you have run out of bullets, or it is totally jammed?
You state that if the bad guys have ammo, and we don't, bad guys win. Sometimes. However, let me remind you of Colonel Chamberlain's bayonet charge at the battle of Gettysburg. His unit had held the high ground, facing down assault after assault, until they simply ran out of ammo. At the next Confederate attack, Chamberlain led a bayonet charge that routed the enemy, held the ground(and the Union flank), and killed or captured a large number of Confederate troops. Chamberlain won the Medal of Honor thereafter(I believe this was the fight at Little Round Top, but it has been a while).
Soldiers must plan for contingencies, because they DO happen. Guns fail, radios fail, vehicles fail. However, our soldiers cannot. When a soldier is given a mission, that must be his all-important task; his life is secondary to the accomplishment thereof. Necessarily, whether defending or attacking, he must be prepared to, among other things, fight in a situation where his primary weapon(rifle, machine gun, or other) is no longer workable. At that point in time, bayonet fighting becomes a necessity.
Moreover, Army missions involve killing, often at uncomfortably close distances. Again, this is where a bayonet, and bayonet training, may become relevant. Our military today is amazingly effective. Our ability to neutralize enemy troops from stand-off distances is unmatched. However, there is now, and forever will be, the necessity to field troops who are able to fight "up close and personal". We ignore these uncomfortable truths at our own peril.
I would agree that bayonet training is probably not necessary..........for the Air Force.Dunno...I think there's a bayonet stud on a GAU 8...
Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...
Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.:p
As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.
On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?
When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!
Jus' sayin'.......
From personal experience, a modern battle can still be a "personal" thing.
Like lksteve said; "Armor officer", CSA/SMA which also brought you the black beret. CSM-H
Armor officer....:rolleyes:
nteresting how in the course of military history, many weapons that at first are thought to be completely useless turn out to be indispensible, while weapons that are indispensible many start thinking are no longer necessary.You mean like SF guys on horseback in Afghanistan?
craigepo
01-29-2010, 08:49
"CSA/SMA which also brought you the black beret."
Correction: they stole the black beret from the Ranger Regiment. Sorry to be overly-technical, but that still pisses me off.
Correction: they stole the black beret from the Ranger Regiment. Sorry to be overly-technical, but that still pisses me off.
Well - historically - the black beret is associated with armor units - except in the US Army when the LRRP/Ranger/Pathfinder units began wearing it 'unofficially' in a local command capacity in RVN and then it was approved by DA for the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger) and the Ranger Department in 1975 [redesignated 75th Ranger Regiment (1986) and Ranger Training Brigade (1987)].
Historically speaking - it's kinda one of those who stole whose God from whom kinda issues.
As for the bayonet training - even if they do away with that, the value of combatives and pugil stick training is - IMO and experiences - invaluable for soldiers of all MOSes and should not be abolished.
However - YMMV - and so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I guess that could be one example: for weapons at first thought useless, I was thinking the tank and aircraft carrier.In my opinion, there is no such thing as a useless weapon...
Interesting how in the course of military history, many weapons that at first are thought to be completely useless turn out to be indispensable, while weapons that are indispensable many start thinking are no longer necessary.At the risk of sounding both defensive and provincial--if also bitter, which I'm not--I would like to point out that while the fields of military analysis and of military history share many of the same practices, sensibilities, and practitioners, fundamental differences remain. This is to say that the debate over the revolution in military affairs (RMA) is not same as the debate over the military revolution.
My not bitter $0.02.
When I joined in 1983. Bayonet training was just reinstated. Right after Jimmy Carter was voted out of office. Maybe this is History repeating itself. When Obama is voted out we will have Bayonet training again.
Maybe if the Army would produce a Bayonet that performed other functions besides just thrusting it into someones Gut. Like a Multi Tool. Then issued it and trained all recruiters in it's use. I kind of liked Bayonet Training, it only lasted like one day. Basically it was an O-Course with yelling and stabbing.
Basically it was an O-Course with yelling and stabbing.
I would sign up for that.
Maybe if the Army would produce a Bayonet that performed other functions besides just thrusting it into someones Gut. Like a Multi Tool. My recollection of the current bayonet is that it could be used in tandem with the sheath as a wire cutter, works well at opening MREs and good at cutting small roots and such when digging a foxhole...
x SF med
01-29-2010, 15:44
If your AR series weapon breaks during bayonet training/combat - an e-tool works really well too... violence of thought and action is what will keep you alive... bayonet training helps get FNGs thinking that way.
If you can clobber or stab with it, it's a frigging weapon, a bayonet makes your rifle one of NDDs sticks with a nail in the end...
The General has no clue...
I do agree with the General on a need to change the focus of combatives. I went through OSUT at Benning back in 1998. The HTH then was still throws and strikes like the thumb strike to the throat, one of my favorites. The intent, of course, was getting the bad guy down and finishing him off. Flash forward to my train up for Iraq and HTH was now combatives which involved putting on running shoes and doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu moves in the pit. I’m not putting down BJJ as I learned a little at the police academy and it has great practical use for law enforcement. Outside of LE, I didn’t see the practicality of the training as we were all going to be in IBAs with full combat load once we were in theater. Hell, even if I had lost my rifle I would have beat a man to death with my ACH before I would have rolled around in the dirt trying to get him in a joint lock. :)
"Madam, I regret to inform you that your son has been killed in action, because his position was overrun, and he and his unit: (a) knew neither how to attach their bayonets to their rifles, nor how to use them, or (b) were not issued bayonets because they are no longer part of the Army inventory."
Either answer sucks and is not acceptable.
Hmmm. That quote is vaguely familiar. About 20 years ago I read Hackworth's book, About Face, where he told the fictional story of "PVT Johnny Lump-Lump" (or something like that) in which this exact situation happened. Wow...talk about the Army coming full circle.
Well - historically - the black beret is associated with armor units - except in the US Army when the LRRP/Ranger/Pathfinder units began wearing it 'unofficially' in a local command capacity in RVN and then it was approved by DA for the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger) and the Ranger Department in 1975 [redesignated 75th Ranger Regiment (1986) and Ranger Training Brigade (1987)].
Historically speaking - it's kinda one of those who stole whose God from whom kinda issues.
As for the bayonet training - even if they do away with that, the value of combatives and pugil stick training is - IMO and experiences - invaluable for soldiers of all MOSes and should not be abolished.
However - YMMV - and so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Having earned my Black Beret the hard way, I'm still very emotional about it being handed out to today's soldiers.
Though, someone did tell me that with the changing of the Ranger Flash to black outline it now reflects six separate colors which reflect the 6 original Ranger Battalions of WWII.
I'm still kinda partial to my Black one at times. especially when I see these retards wearing them and looking like a pizza flipper dude.
The Air Force apparently doesn't look at a battle with the same "take as many of these bastards with me, with everything I have at my command.. Arty, Close air, indirect and direct fire weapons, grenades, sticks, knives, rocks, bare hands.. and the chicken ala King MRE...." as some of the rest of us.
monsterhunter
01-29-2010, 19:48
This reminds me of the screw up when guns were not placed on the F-4 because they were no longer needed. Even the F-20 has a gun mounted on it now. History appears to be repeating itself again.
AngelsSix, I too was Air Force and am now in law enforcement. We train in both firearms and ground fighting, with several other weapons in between. We are constantly having to fight suspects with our hands, as we are usually right where they and the problem exists. A good many of us carry push daggers as a counter to a fight over your own weapon, which sometimes cannot be avoided.
I've never been in the sandbox, but recall recently watching an interview with a soldier who killed an insurgent with his bayonet. They were face to face in a house, both ran dry of ammo, a reload would have been a fatal mistake for either one. The bayonet saved the soldier's life.
"...take as many of these bastards with me, with everything I have at my command.. Arty, Close air, indirect and direct fire weapons, grenades, sticks, knives, rocks, bare hands.. and the chicken ala King MRE...." as some of the rest of us.
My father told me, during a Chinese over-run of a rural airfield, Korea, he clubbed a guy with the phone from his desk. Small arms fire could be heard around the area. Re-loading his 1911A1, was not an option, he was already out of ammo. His buddy next to him was beating a guy with a folding chair, then another, and another.
My father is still alive today, and so is the guy with the chair, living somewhere in California.
Sigaba, was not meaning to insult military analysts or military historians if that is how you took it.Broadsword2004--
It wasn't the way I took it.
GEN Hertling's decision just activates a lot of memories of instances in American military history when the push for the new resulted in losing sight of the tried and the true.
When the history of America between 1992 and the end of GWOT is written, the fascination with 'transformation' is going to be at the heart of a lot of what went wrong for the United States.
My $0.02.
The Reaper
01-30-2010, 10:08
GEN Hertling's decision just activates a lot of memories of instances in American military history when the push for the new resulted in losing sight of the tried and the true.
When the history of America between 1992 and the end of GWOT is written, the fascination with 'transformation' is going to be at the heart of a lot of what went wrong for the United States.
My $0.02.
I concur.
Technology will never replace resolve and individual heroism.
TR
As for the bayonet training - even if they do away with that, the value of combatives and pugil stick training is - IMO and experiences - invaluable for soldiers of all MOSes and should not be abolished.
I fully beleive in this. But most units, espically SF ODAs, don't do this training. What do you mean we have to go to TSSC to sign stuff out? That's too much work, we'll just do some CrossFit.
Maybe if the Army would produce a Bayonet that performed other functions besides just thrusting it into someones Gut. Like a Multi Tool.
o
I think someone needs to update the Bayonet. Make is smaller, light and something people would wear on their kit. Not this big bulky knife that is only a Bayonet and BS wire cutter. Make sure it will cut through C-wire. How many of us tried to cut some C-wire when we first got this. What 15 times of scissoring the knife and pinching your fingers together. I have two words
Body Breach!!
Bayonets may not be the current item carried by Soldiers. But we all carry a knife or two on our kit. Big Army and RFI needs to talk to soldiers, units and get the information to produce a new bayonet.
I just spoke to my son, who is in AIT at Ice Station Sill, and told him about this discussion. He said the they did not have Bayonet Training in Basic at FLW. They were the first cycle to not have it because, one DS said, too many recruits were cutting themselves...on purpose. They also didn't have IV training in First Aid.
BTW, his company was gender integrated 50/50.
Pat
NousDefionsDoc
01-30-2010, 19:47
Hertling also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.
General of the Year
NousDefionsDoc
01-30-2010, 19:51
And completely out of touch...
Department of Redundancy Department
I just spoke to my son, who is in AIT at Ice Station Sill, and told him about this discussion. He said the they did not have Bayonet Training in Basic at FLW. They were the first cycle to not have it because, one DS said, too many recruits were cutting themselves...on purpose. They also didn't have IV training in First Aid.
BTW, his company was gender integrated 50/50.
Pat
Bad excuse to stop bayonet training.
The blades' don't need to be sharp to have effective training for beginners.
And if guys hurt themselves on purpose they shouldn't be there anyway.
If guys have good hand to hand and knife fighting skills as a base there shouldn't be a problem.
How hard is it to teach warriors how to mount a blade on the end of their boomstick and trust it into the enemies gut?
I agree with the General how current combatives are setting warriors up for failure.
The battlefield is no place for submission fighting, unless its on an EPW.
Even then it shouldn't be the preferred method.
Sinister
01-31-2010, 10:35
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww176/luxard/samuel-toloza.jpg?t=1238780420
Corporal Samuel Toloza of El Salvador's Cuscatlan Battalion displays his bloodstained knife that he used to fend off Iraqi gunmen in Najaf, Iraq, Saturday May 1, 2004. One of his friends was dead, 12 others lay wounded and four soldiers still left were surrounded and out of ammunition, so Toloza used his switchblade knife to charge the Iraqi gunmen. (AP Photo/Saurabh Das)
"We never considered surrender. I was trained to fight until the end," said the 25-year-old corporal, one of 380 soldiers from El Salvador.
Corporal Samuel Toloza stood surrounded by armed, fanatic Iraqi militants. Sam was one of only 4 men from his battalion still standing; a friend lay dead at his feet, and 12 others were wounded.
Ammunition spent, no relief inbound, Sam saw Muqtada al-Sadr’s gunmen—modern headhunters shooting without regard for the innocents they purposely thrust into the melee—closing in.
In that moment of truth, Corporal Toloza was a man of action: He flipped open his knife and rushed a cluster of 10 Iraqi gunmen,
killing at least 1 and forcing the others to flee. Later, Sam said, “I thought, ‘This is the end.’ But, at the same time, I asked the Lord to protect and save me. . . . My immediate reaction was that I had to defend my friend, and the only thing I had in my hands was a knife.”
Corporal Toloza’s actions were widely reported, and he became a national hero. Secretary Rumsfeld pinned medals on the corporal and his comrades in a special ceremony, thanking them on behalf of the U.S. Armed Forces and all Americans.
When I first heard about the corporal’s heroism, like most of us who have fought and grappled, who have been both targets and shooters, I saw the battle through his eyes. This was an all-American, apple-pie, war hero story. Yet in this case, Sam was not a stereotypical high school football star who went home to Kansas with a shiny medal and a duffle bag of dirty clothes. Corporal Toloza was from the Cuscatlan Battalion, part of the Salvadoran mission to Iraq, an important part of the international coalition often overlooked by the press. His friend who died by gunshot was Private Natividad Mendez, also from El Salvador.
Toloza’s story demonstrates that individual acts of honor and integrity can have strategic effects. With Salvadoran spirit and years of American training and support, a corporal’s bravery became a symbol of national pride and metaphor for a strategic alliance between nations.
This is a far cry from the obsolete perception of the embattled Cold War El Salvador of two decades ago. Corporal Toloza’s tale shows how professionalism and pride, loyalty and integrity, are desirable personal as well as national character traits. America’s allies, after years of joint training, exercises, and military education, make sacrifices and are heroes, virtually indistinguishable from their U.S. counterparts.
Colonel Merrick E. Krause, USAF
Director, National Defense University Press
Editor, Joint Force Quarterly
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_new_basic_training
By SUSANNE M. SCHAFER, Associated Press Writer Susanne M. Schafer, Associated Press Writer – 32 mins ago
FORT JACKSON, S.C. – New soldiers are grunting through the kind of stretches and twists found in "ab blaster" classes at suburban gyms as the Army revamps its basic training regimen for the first time in three decades.
Heeding the advice of Iraq and Afghanistan combat veterans, commanders are dropping five-mile runs and bayonet drills in favor of zigzag sprints and exercises that hone core muscles. Battlefield sergeants say that's the kind of fitness needed to dodge across alleys, walk patrol with heavy packs and body armor or haul a buddy out of a burning vehicle.
Trainers also want to toughen recruits who are often more familiar with Facebook than fistfights.
"Soldiers need to be able to move quickly under load, to be mobile under load, with your body armor, your weapons and your helmet, in a stressful situation," said Frank Palkoska, head of the Army's Fitness School at Fort Jackson, which has worked several years on overhauling the regime.
"We geared all of our calisthenics, all of our running movements, all of our warrior skills, so soldiers can become stronger, more powerful and more speed driven," Palkoska said. The exercises are part of the first major overhaul in Army basic fitness training since men and women began training together in 1980, he said.
The new plan is being expanded this month at the Army's four other basic training installations — Fort Leonard Wood, Mo., Fort Sill, Okla., Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Knox, Ky.
Drill sergeants with experience in the current wars are credited with urging the Army to change training, in particular to build up core muscle strength. One of them is 1st Sgt. Michael Todd, a veteran of seven deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.
On a recent training day Todd was spinning recruits around to give them the feel of rolling out of a tumbled Humvee. Then he tossed on the ground pugil sticks made of plastic pipe and foam, forcing trainees to crawl for their weapons before they pounded away on each other.
"They have to understand hand-to-hand combat, to use something other than their weapon, a piece of wood, a knife, anything they can pick up," Todd said.
The new training also uses "more calisthenics to build core body power, strength and agility," Palkoska said in an office bedecked with 60-year-old black and white photos of World War II-era mass exercise drills. Over the 10 weeks of basic, a strict schedule of exercises is done on a varied sequence of days so muscles rest, recover and strengthen.
Another aim is to toughen recruits from a more obese and sedentary generation, trainers said.
Many recruits didn't have physical education in elementary, middle or high school and therefore tend to lack bone and muscle strength. When they ditch diets replete with soda and fast food for healthier meals and physical training, they drop excess weight and build stronger muscles and denser bones, Palkoska said.
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling of the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, the three-star general in charge of revamping all aspects of initial training, said his overall goal is to drop outmoded drills and focus on what soldiers need today and in the future.
Bayonet drills had continued for decades, even though soldiers no longer carry the blades on their automatic rifles. Hertling ordered the drills dropped.
"We have to make the training relevant to the conditions on the modern battlefield," Hertling said during a visit to Fort Jackson in January.
The general said the current generation has computer skills and a knowledge base vital to a modern fighting force. He foresees soldiers using specially equipped cell phones to retrieve information on the battlefield to help repair a truck or carry out an emergency lifesaving medical technique.
But they need to learn how to fight.
"Most of these soldiers have never been in a fistfight or any kind of a physical confrontation. They are stunned when they get smacked in the face," said Capt. Scott Sewell, overseeing almost 190 trainees in their third week of training. "We are trying to get them to act, to think like warriors."
For hours, Sewell and his drill sergeants urge on helmeted trainees as they whale away at each other with pugil sticks, landing head and body blows until one falls flat on the ground. As a victor slams away at his flattened foe, a drill sergeant whistles the fight to a halt.
"This is the funnest day I've had since I've been here!" said 21-year-old Pvt. Brendon Rhyne, of Rutherford County, N.C., after being beaten to the ground. "It makes you physically tough. Builds you up on the insides mentally, too."
The Marine Corps is also applying war lessons to its physical training, adopting a new combat fitness test that replicates the rigor of combat. The test, which is required once a year, has Marines running sprints, lifting 30-pound ammunition cans over their heads for a couple of minutes and completing a 300-yard obstacle course that includes carrying a mock wounded Marine and throwing a mock grenade.
Capt. Kenny Fleming, a 10-year-Army veteran looking after a group of Fort Jackson trainees, said men and women learn exercises that prepare them to do something on the battlefield such as throw a grenade, or lunge and pick a buddy off the ground. Experience in Iraq has shown that women need the same skills because they come under fire, too, even if they are formally barred from combat roles.
"All their exercises are related to something they will do out in the field," Fleming said, pointing out "back bridge" exercises designed to hone abdominal muscles where soldiers lift hips and one leg off the ground and hold it steady.
"This will help their core muscles, which they could use when they stabilize their body for shooting their weapon, or any kind of lifting, pulling, or something like grabbing a buddy out of a tank hatch," Fleming said.
Fleming said those who had some sort of sports in high school can easily pick up on the training, while those who didn't have to be brought along. One hefty soldier in a recent company he trained dropped 45 pounds and learned to blast out 100 push-ups and 70 sit-ups, he said.
"We just have to take the soldier who's used to sitting on the couch playing video games and get them out there to do it," Fleming said.
Utah Bob
03-16-2010, 16:57
Bayonet drills had continued for decades, even though soldiers no longer carry the blades on their automatic rifles. Hertling ordered the drills dropped
Is the surplus market now flooded with bayonets? Did they grind the lug off the M-4s?
So they're teaching them to use sticks (an old Monty Python Army training sketch comes to mind) "They have to understand hand-to-hand combat, to use something other than their weapon, a piece of wood, a knife, anything they can pick up," Todd said.
but not a bayonet.
The logic escapes me.
Now they'll develop sprinters with no endurance but a lot of muscle?
Again the logic escapes me.
What is the spirit of the Thigh Master? "To build core muscle, Drill Sergeant!"
Can I get a Hooah?
Don't mind me. I guess I'm just old.:rolleyes:
Sierra Bravo
03-16-2010, 17:30
So the next time your position is over run by the enemy
you can just lift up your shirt and say
"check out these abs" :lifter
WTF?
I could understand including Core training in PT but maybe adding an advanced bladed / weapon skill set to balance things out might be a good idea?
Next thing ya' know they'll dust off the old tape of Suzanne Somers tapes and go for "buns of steel" ........................Oh, this ain't gonna end well.......
Wonder if the Army will call for a "thigh master" contract?
That's WHY this type of training should have stayed....
Data: Only 19 percent of medical evacuations in Mideast battle-related
Stars & Stripes Article (http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=68719)
Stay safe.
Masochist
03-17-2010, 09:42
That's WHY this type of training should have stayed....
Data: Only 19 percent of medical evacuations in Mideast battle-related
Stars & Stripes Article (http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=68719)
Stay safe.
Semi-hijacking this thread, but still relevant.
248 due to pregnancy or childbirth? And it's been said that pregnancy stats haven't been well kept, so there are possibly more?
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=317591&postcount=72 (thanks Pete)
I know that pregnancies (according to the above chart) equate to less than one percent of total medevacs, but does that speak to a larger issue with soldier readiness? If Soldier A and Soldier B can't be disciplined enough to keep from hooking up, are they disciplined enough to do the things they need to do (physically, mentally, etc.) to be prepared and stay prepared in battle? Is this an indicator of why other injuries are more prevalent than they should be?
BMT (RIP)
03-17-2010, 10:31
British officer wins two gallantry awards for fending off Taliban attack with bayonet
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6178044/British-officer-wins-two-gallantry-awards-for-fending-off-Taliban-attack-with-bayonet.html
:lifter
:D
BMT
greenberetTFS
03-17-2010, 10:49
Excellent post,completely say's it all !!!!...............:D:D:D
Big Teddy :munchin
alright4u
03-17-2010, 12:44
Well I remember about 20 years ago, when Drill Sgt Hughs said "sound off with what you want to be in the future?" we replied "Expert Infantry" then he said spirit of the bayonet and we said "to kill, to kill with cold blue steel" he replied "whirl......whirl....."
WTF....what is up with the future of our forces? Has everyone gone mad? Jihadis, (like Charlie) are out there training, and we are trying to get out of it. Playing Call of Duty 2 is not going to make the American soldier harder, the occasional trip off the couch doesn't prepare you to hump a ruck in any environment.
my .00002 cents
I agree. The Army had sound reasons for what seemed liked repetition madness. From Basic, AIT, ABN, and special training to you name it, things became like second nature/automatic. I had two SF senior NCO's who constantly trained the yards in immediate action drills. It made no difference if we had kicked some ass in combat. They kept it up as we always had new bodies to fill in for others. Those yards were damn good. The S4 got us 250 plus extra LAW's to train with. Those LAW's were taken out south of our BMTE HQ, fired at 55 gallon drums, and; all of us taught the yards how to fire them.
The one thing I vididly recall is how much those Rhade loved to train. Same same with M16's in August 68. We suspected after an ambush they/ some yards were afraid of the claymore, so; we got in an open field with steel pots on and each yard blew one after each of us SF blew one out in the open. They were all airborne qualified, too. They learned that like we did. These men became lethal from already very proficient Infantrymen. These are the things I hope our Infantry knows. Yes, we had grenade throwing contests, too. Add squad, platoon, and company tactics. Add map reading and much more.
Training is the best insurance policy in war.
British officer wins two gallantry awards for fending off Taliban attack with bayonet
REMINDER - SEARCH function - would have taken you here (see post #8 of the thread dtd 9-13-2009).
Bayonets in Basra - A Case Study on the Effects of Irregular Warfare
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22170
Richard