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rltipton
01-09-2010, 18:19
I got approval from the boss lady to purchase a new firearm when the income tax return comes in. I decided am going to add an M4 to my gun safe. I know some are better than others, so could some of you guys who are 'in the know' give some advice as to which ones are better for the money and especially which ones to stay away from. Thanks in advance.

Be safe,
Randy

Peregrino
01-09-2010, 19:38
If you are sticking with a carbine, get anything with a 9" gas system and a 16" 1/9 stainless or chrome lined barrel. (Don't get stuck on having one "just like the one I've got at work". You won't be using your personal rifle the same way, with unlimited military ammo, and sexy accessories that need 14.5 barrels w/grenade launcher cuts, finicky gas systems, etc.) You should be able to get a decent one with minimal upgrades from Delton, RR, DPMS, etc. for something less than $800.00. Any of the reputable "assemblers" (although more are getting into the game, very few people actually manufacture every component) will give you a quality rifle that'll do anything you need short of defending the Alamo from the zombies. Read all marketing claims with scepticism, they're all fighting over percentage points. MILSPEC is a real spec; however, it's not a guarantee of quality. Not all parts need to be MILSPEC, not everything marked MILSPEC is, and a lot of quality manufacturers don't bother. Quad rail handguards, fancy stocks, match triggers, wazoo iron sights, etc. are all things you can buy/scrounge later.

(The question you really asked - DelTon. Call and talk to them. They'll build anything you want at a reasonable price. Next would be RR or DPMS. If I won the lottery I'd check out LMT or one of the other top end guns. I've had bad experiences with BM and nobody else has differentiated themselves enough to catch my interest. Good luck; everybody is getting on the bandwagon, just like they've done with 1911s. Price and/or accessories (bells & whistles) are not guaranteed indicators of quality.)

rltipton
01-09-2010, 20:14
I appreciate the feedback. I will look into Delton first. I should have added that I'm not planning to shoot a lot with it, just occasionally and just in case SHTF I want something that I am intimately familiar with. I don't want bells & whistles at all. I'll put a Surefire with a thumb switch on it and that's it.

I know what you mean about the 1911s. I got so frustrated with mixed reviews I finally said screw it and bought a Colt. I may do the same with this as well eventually.

Thanks again & be safe

Costa
01-09-2010, 22:01
I like Spikes Tactical in Apopka, Fl.

I'm not a weapons expert by any means, but I've seen a few others on the board here give spikes their approval in terms of product quality.

I can however vouch for the experience in dealing with them. Great professional people that were very receptive to my questions and very hospitable. Ask for A.J. if you give them a call.

I got their standard M4 with the 14.5" 1:7.

Great tee-shirts too.:lifter

ChickenMcFuggit
01-09-2010, 22:30
Poking my nose in. Qualified with the Law Enforcement model last year and my brother sent me this. Thought you might find it funny.:D

wet dog
01-09-2010, 23:01
If you are sticking with a carbine, get anything with a 9" gas system and a 16" 1/9 stainless or chrome lined barrel. (Don't get stuck on having one "just like the one I've got at work". You won't be using your personal rifle the same way, with unlimited military ammo, and sexy accessories that need 14.5 barrels w/grenade launcher cuts, finicky gas systems, etc.) You should be able to get a decent one with minimal upgrades from Delton, RR, DPMS, etc. for something less than $800.00. Any of the reputable "assemblers" (although more are getting into the game, very few people actually manufacture every component) will give you a quality rifle that'll do anything you need short of defending the Alamo from the zombies. Read all marketing claims with scepticism, they're all fighting over percentage points. MILSPEC is a real spec; however, it's not a guarantee of quality. Not all parts need to be MILSPEC, not everything marked MILSPEC is, and a lot of quality manufacturers don't bother. Quad rail handguards, fancy stocks, match triggers, wazoo iron sights, etc. are all things you can buy/scrounge later.

(The question you really asked - DelTon. Call and talk to them. They'll build anything you want at a reasonable price. Next would be RR or DPMS. If I won the lottery I'd check out LMT or one of the other top end guns. I've had bad experiences with BM and nobody else has differentiated themselves enough to catch my interest. Good luck; everybody is getting on the bandwagon, just like they've done with 1911s. Price and/or accessories (bells & whistles) are not guaranteed indicators of quality.)


I agree 100% with Peregrino -

My take is, you'll goal is in obtaining a well built functional and dependable lower receiver, keep as long of a barrel as allowed. The rest is symantics, the study of logic: the study of ways of interpreting and analyzing theories of logic.

You're not purchasing a .223 pistol.

I know of better weapons for close quarters combat.

But that's just me.

WD

p.s., Ask your wife if you could purchase an off the shelf, standard M14, .308 instead.

mojaveman
01-09-2010, 23:46
Del Ton has a good reputation and some of the best prices for AR kits.

rltipton
01-10-2010, 07:08
I will look into Spikes also, thanks.

I saw the kits on DelTon, but I'm not an 18B. I've seen lowers apart, but even though I am mechanically inclined, even if I DID know how to assemble one it is unlikely I could place those little pieces in there with any success. I like the idea of a kit rifle to build myself, but for now I just want one I can purchase, clean, zero, clean, then hang for rainy days.

As for there being better CQB weapons, I'm sure there are, but my home is covered already just fine. I know the M4 inside & out, blindfolded, you know the deal... I wish I had the time to dedicate to learning a new weapon, but I don't, so I'm planning to stick to what I already know.

Good point with the "pistol" comment. I'm initially inclined to go with the 20" barrel, but I do not have a solid reason for that decision. It is really somewhat immaterial in my case, as I'm not planning to shoot it a whole lot or use it inside my home (hopefully). I have pistols and shotguns that will do just fine in case I need to shoot someone inside my house.

I just want a plain old standard M4 in 5.56 with iron sites, fixed carrying handle... something I do not have to put any thought into whatsoever in case the time ever comes to 'switch on.'

Thanks again for the info...can't wait to get my taxes filed!!!

C0B2A
01-10-2010, 07:18
If you are looking for real quality I would stay away from DPMS, bushmaster, darkstar and the super production companys. Noveske makes some of the best AR platforms around, and you can't really go wrong with Colt. If you wanted to take the leap into gas tap-it, LWRC, POF, or KAC are the way to go. Granted you are going to pay for the the quality, especially right now during these times. Just something to look into. I picked up a LWRC about 6 months ago, fantastic rifle.

Here is a information sheet that is an on-going calibration from the members over at m4carbine.net
Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5)

steelcobra
01-10-2010, 07:56
Plus with an AR, you only have to buy a new upper to play around with different calibers.

Like this guy: http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=338

A 5.7mm upper that feeds from standard P90 mags and ejects down through the mag well.

rltipton
01-10-2010, 08:14
If you are looking for real quality I would stay away from DPMS, bushmaster, darkstar and the super production companys. Noveske makes some of the best AR platforms around, and you can't really go wrong with Colt. If you wanted to take the leap into gas tap-it, LWRC, POF, or KAC are the way to go. Granted you are going to pay for the the quality, especially right now during these times. Just something to look into. I picked up a LWRC about 6 months ago, fantastic rifle.

Here is a information sheet that is an on-going calibration from the members over at m4carbine.com
Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5)

I'll check out LWRC too thanks. The link has a ton of info. Awesome compilation of data, but...way too much...enough to make me go buy a Colt!

Peregrino
01-10-2010, 09:50
I'll check out LWRC too thanks. The link has a ton of info. Awesome compilation of data, but...way too much...enough to make me go buy a Colt!

DO NOT GET A FIXED CARRYING HANDLE UPPER! (Yes, I shouted. Wanted to make sure I had your attention.) It'll restrict your ability to accessorize whenever you finally decide to upgrade (and you will, trust me on this; optics are worth the money, especially as your eyes age). If you feel the need to have a carrying handle, get the removable one. The price difference is a few percentage points of the total cost, not worth worrying about. I'm not a fan of Colt for various reasons mainly attitude. (I've owned three over the years and never thought they were worth the extra money for their name or the PC mods they installed. Still annoyed about their large pin lowers and the reciever block/butchered bolt carrier.) YMMV

Kailua
01-10-2010, 10:42
I have a Colt 6920 and have had zero issues. I carry it everyday on patrol and shoot at least once every few months. If you want something basic to start with its a good choice IMO. I didn't get caught up on the "politics" of it, just that its a solid brand.
On a side note our department bought a bunch of Rock Rivers and they have had no issues either.
I use my Colt as a personal choice; not that the RR isn't going to go bang when you pull the trigger.

koz
01-10-2010, 12:54
I would recommend Bravo Co Machine (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm). And according to that chart they have all the same features but the BCM is $200 cheaper.

They're good people and they make a really good product.

I've got a Colt as well and it never leaves the safe due to the different pin sizes and incompatibility with other lowers, triggers, etc... It's a good gun but there are others out there that are just as good (if not better) and cost quite a bit less.

I'll also second what Peregrino that you don't want a fixed carry handle unless you're building a retro version.

Paslode
01-10-2010, 13:47
I have a LMT MRP, it is a great rifle but for my plinking I would have been just as happy and $500 richer with something less pricey. Unless it has changed, the downside as I see it with the LMT MRP's is the limitation on barrels you have to choose from and it weighs a bit more than a standard AR.

Sabre2G
01-10-2010, 15:39
From my understanding you're looking for something pretty basic to start with. I sort of start in the same place. I chose to go with bushmaster. I have had nothing but, great reliability with this rifle even before I had changed anything about it. Prices can get a little steep but, usually those are packages that come with extra toys for the weapon (hard case, sling, magazine, etc..). For the most part they are all right around $1100 but, that is straight from bushmaster. I know you can get them for around $800 through various shops. I'd say check out gunbroker.com you can find some great deals on there.

HisDisciple
01-10-2010, 18:00
Hope, I didn't step on any toes here just want to offer some options.

You're making my head hurt. If somebody asks a question and you don't have extensive personal experience, do not post. Peregrino

kgoerz
01-10-2010, 18:02
From my understanding you're looking for something pretty basic to start with. I sort of start in the same place. I chose to go with bushmaster. I have had nothing but, great reliability with this rifle even before I had changed anything about it. Prices can get a little steep but, usually those are packages that come with extra toys for the weapon (hard case, sling, magazine, etc..). For the most part they are all right around $1100 but, that is straight from bushmaster. I know you can get them for around $800 through various shops. I'd say check out gunbroker.com you can find some great deals on there.

I concur. Check out the various other Forums that cater to for sale threads. Some require a certain amount of post or time as a member to access their for sale sections. 99% of my accessories were purchased used this way. Never had a problem.
If your not going to run thousands or rounds thru it, swim with it or jump out of Air planes with it. Then I would go with a lesser priced brand, IE BM, STAG, LMT...ETC. Spend your money on good optics, Laru Mounts, Surefire Light and good Ammo.

NoRoadtrippin
01-10-2010, 20:32
I will look into Spikes also, thanks.

I saw the kits on DelTon, but I'm not an 18B. I've seen lowers apart, but even though I am mechanically inclined, even if I DID know how to assemble one it is unlikely I could place those little pieces in there with any success. I like the idea of a kit rifle to build myself, but for now I just want one I can purchase, clean, zero, clean, then hang for rainy days.

Hey rltipton,

I've got 4 AR's currently. One complete one from Armalite (16"), a complete from Bushmaster (20"), a DPMS lower and Rock River upper (16"), and a DPMS lower with a Model 1 upper in 9mm (10.5"). I have been happy with all of them. They all fire fine and run for multiple range session without a lot of cleaning. My .02 on a lot of these companies is that they can all be a bit hit or miss. I have gotten good rifles from each.

I quoted your above post, because I would highly recommend building your own kit. I haven't done an upper, but I did do the whole lower end on my 9mm shorty. It took all of 45 minutes or an hour and it was a GREAT learning experience. AR15.com has a thread with large pictures and easy step by step instructions. I saw it as a great chance to know how to take care of my rifles if the SHTF. And since that is what you are potentially buying this rifle for, I would be of the thought that if you are having to put it to use you might also be in a position that makes a repairman hard to find. Just a bit of devil's advocate...

Ultimately for me, it was just a lot of fun to know I put that rifle together myself. And it really was pretty dang easy.

MatthewD44
01-10-2010, 21:00
I have a question along this same area...how does this upper receiver kit look as far as company rep and all. I am new to building my own but after looking at prices, I think I should be able to put one together with all of the links that have been posted

here is the link
http://www.del-ton.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RKT100&CartID=2

Herdbull
01-11-2010, 10:31
Do any of you have experience with Ruger's version the SR 556? If so what do you think?

Speedgod
01-11-2010, 11:25
Have you thought of anything aside from a M-4. Maybe check these guys out.http://www.robarm.com/

Did a bunch of research and they are pretty amazing imho.

Some other brands Yankee Hills also has some good AR product. I have a Rock River myself and have been extremely happy with it.

Good luck! :cool:


SG

FMF DOC
01-11-2010, 11:45
As mentioned on another thread, Smith & Wesson will take 40% off their wholesale price if you completed their form and send a copy if your Military I.D. I just purchased the M&P 15X for under $800...

Peregrino
01-11-2010, 19:18
Have you thought of anything aside from a M-4. Maybe check these guys out.http://www.robarm.com/

Did a bunch of research and they are pretty amazing imho.
SG

An interesting concept still trying to make it to market six(?) years after it was introduced. I'll stick with proven for a while longer. YMMV

Sabre2G
01-12-2010, 01:00
An interesting concept still trying to make it to market six(?) years after it was introduced. I'll stick with proven for a while longer. YMMV

Interesting rifle I remember seeing that in some magazine a few years back. In my mind if you want proven I'd say either go with an M4 type or with one of the Socom series M1A's from Springfield. I've had my Socom II for just under a year now and while it's a little long and nose heavy taking the lower rail set off makes it a pretty well balanced rifle. The compensator is a thing of beauty making it the softest shooting .308 I've ever fired. Yeah it's a little pricey but, the demand for it if you ever decide to sell it makes it worth while in itself. Just my .02.

AG

Rob_0811
01-12-2010, 09:10
+1 for BCM......they make quality stuff.

steelcobra
01-13-2010, 13:33
DO NOT GET A FIXED CARRYING HANDLE UPPER! (Yes, I shouted. Wanted to make sure I had your attention.) It'll restrict your ability to accessorize whenever you finally decide to upgrade (and you will, trust me on this; optics are worth the money, especially as your eyes age). If you feel the need to have a carrying handle, get the removable one. The price difference is a few percentage points of the total cost, not worth worrying about. I'm not a fan of Colt for various reasons mainly attitude. (I've owned three over the years and never thought they were worth the extra money for their name or the PC mods they installed. Still annoyed about their large pin lowers and the reciever block/butchered bolt carrier.) YMMV

THIS. Even if you aren't old, just blind (20/200 uncorrected myopia, here) they help a lot.

I went from barely shooting marksman or sharpshooter with irons to 39s/40s with both the M68 Aimpoint and the TA31 ACOG.

Juliet Delta
01-14-2010, 10:18
Do any of you have experience with Ruger's version the SR 556? If so what do you think?

I would steer clear.

The rail is not free floated, and it suffers from some pretty severe carrier tilt (where the bottom of the carrier chews up your receiver extension or "buffer tube").


Also, stay away from the Bushmaster rifles...their BCG's are seldom staked, castle nuts are almost never staked, barrel twist is always 1:9", the BCG and buffers are too light (ar carrier and carbine buffers rather than M16 carrier and H buffers), and the list goes on. Here is some photographic proof for you:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532

Some of the best built rifles are coming from BCM, Daniel Defense, Noveske, Colt, and LMT.


Building a carbine isn't all that complicated either, so long as you pay attention to the details. Most of the less expensive companies cut corners; so if you don't cut corners building, you can have a very reliable rifle.

Also, the delton kits tend to ship with .223 chambers, if I recall correctly. If you plan to shoot .mil ammo though it, or Federal XM193 or any other 5.56mm ammo...I would either make sure you had the chamber reamed, or select a different barrel/ kit.

Ryanr
01-14-2010, 10:45
I hope this is on topic enough -- but do you all think I would be doing myself a disservice in any way by purchasing one of the suggested basic M4 systems prior to my enlistment? My hope is that I would become familiar with shooting and care and such, but I wouldn't want to pick up bad habits that proper Army instructors would have to beat out of me. :)

wet dog
01-14-2010, 11:06
I hope this is on topic enough -- but do you all think I would be doing myself a disservice in any way by purchasing one of the suggested basic M4 systems prior to my enlistment? My hope is that I would become familiar with shooting and care and such, but I wouldn't want to pick up bad habits that proper Army instructors would have to beat out of me. :)

Save your money, do not purchase until you have learned that in which you like. Weapons familiarity will come quickly, think about the millions of local tribal villagers that got M16 A1, A2, M4 training.

I think you should forge, file, fit your own .30-06, BAR, with several 20 rd. magazines.

Ryanr
01-14-2010, 12:22
Save your money, do not purchase until you have learned that in which you like. Weapons familiarity will come quickly, think about the millions of local tribal villagers that got M16 A1, A2, M4 training.

That makes a lot of sense. I guess it's really just that I want enlist sooner than I'm able to, and I'd enjoy learning to shoot.

I happen to be at a juncture in my life where money is one of the few things I have plenty of -- are there any bad habits to watch out for while learning to shoot as a civilian?

Juliet Delta
01-14-2010, 13:19
That makes a lot of sense. I guess it's really just that I want enlist sooner than I'm able to, and I'd enjoy learning to shoot.

I happen to be at a juncture in my life where money is one of the few things I have plenty of -- are there any bad habits to watch out for while learning to shoot as a civilian?

Dozens. However, private sector training can often exceed what is taught in BRM.

I would recommend at least purchasing this book, then going from there...
http://www.vikingtactics.com/book.html

HisDisciple
01-14-2010, 15:45
I would recommend Bravo Co Machine (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm). And according to that chart they have all the same features but the BCM is $200 cheaper.

They're good people and they make a really good product.

I've got a Colt as well and it never leaves the safe due to the different pin sizes and incompatibility with other lowers, triggers, etc... It's a good gun but there are others out there that are just as good (if not better) and cost quite a bit less.

I'll also second what Peregrino that you don't want a fixed carry handle unless you're building a retro version.

I agree.

rltipton from your posts it seems that BCM has all your basics covered.
They are cheaper in price than Noveske, DD and LMT, but on the same hard-use shooting field.(Save for N. barrels)
properly staked carrier key without a MOACKS tool
Full auto upper
Hammer forged barrel
M4 Feed Ramps
There lowers are 7075 aluminum, not crappy 6065.

I don't want to give anyone another headache, so I will just say
can't beat the price (around 900) for simple outstanding quality BCM carbine.

Utah Bob
01-14-2010, 17:15
That makes a lot of sense. I guess it's really just that I want enlist sooner than I'm able to, and I'd enjoy learning to shoot.

I happen to be at a juncture in my life where money is one of the few things I have plenty of -- are there any bad habits to watch out for while learning to shoot as a civilian?

The Army will teach you how to shoot.
Yes, there are plenty of bad habits you can pick up that the Army will have to beat out of you.
Save your money for something you'll need. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to spend it. Trust me.

Ryanr
01-14-2010, 17:36
The Army will teach you how to shoot.
Yes, there are plenty of bad habits you can pick up that the Army will have to beat out of you.
Save your money for something you'll need. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to spend it. Trust me.

That makes a lot of sense to me, thank you for the guidance. I'll go do PT. :lifter

wet dog
01-15-2010, 00:27
...,Save your money for something you'll need. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to spend it. Trust me.

My drinking improves the more I shoot, wait, I got that backwards...

ZonieDiver
01-15-2010, 00:48
The Army will teach you how to shoot.
Yes, there are plenty of bad habits you can pick up that the Army will have to beat out of you.
Save your money for something you'll need. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to spend it. Trust me.

Trust me that the United States Army WILL teach you how to shoot! If you have extra money that will potentially get you in trouble, just send it to me (address available on request) and I will make those "hard" decisions for you.
:D