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wet dog
01-05-2010, 17:47
All interested parties,

Bill Harsey and I are pleased to announce a new thread specifically designed to teach, advise and coach the ODA blacksmith.

While many sites on the net are designed to educate the modern Blacksmith in fabrication, this thread is for the ODA.

Included is a rough Draft of the course outline POI.

Because we do not have our own area, we should make every attempt to keep this area clean and organized.

By a show of hands, please send PM to Bill or myself if you are interested.


The Blacksmith

Source # 1

The Shop, a.k.a. “Smithy”
1. Site Selection
2. Organizing the work space
a. Safety Equipment
b. Exploding conditions, environment
c. Protection and Clothing

Source # 2

Tools and Equipment
1. Anvil, anvil stand
2. Hammer(s)
3. Tongs
4. Anvil tools, Hardy(ies)
5. Coal forge tools
6. Coal forges
7. Additional tools and equipment
8. Marking and measuring tools
9. Modern Technology, the LP gas forge

Source # 3

Iron
1. What is Iron?
a. Wrought Iron
b. Cast Iron
c. What is steel?
1. Commercial forms of steel

Source # 4

Preliminary Skills
1. Coal
2. Fire Tending
3. Working with Tongs
4. How to heat your Iron Stock
5. Temperature Color Indication
6. Selecting a Forging Hammer, (see source # 2.2)
7. How to Shut Down Your Coal Forge

Source # 5 (Time for work)

1. How to use Anvil Tools
2. Tapering
3. Spreading
4. Upsetting
5. Bending
6. Scrolling
7. Twisting
8. Handheld Tooling

Source # 6

Forge Welding and Assembly
1. Forge Welding
a. Forge welding fire instructions
b. Different types of Forge welds
c. Forge welding Temp. Appearance(s)
2. Scarfing
3. Rivets, Nails, etc.
4. Mortise and Tenon
5. Shrinking, Collars, Wraps

Source # 7

Making your own Tools, this is SF Field craft NUMBER ONE
1. Resources Needed to Make you own Tools
2. Drift
3. Handheld punches
4. Slit Chisel
5. Twisting Bar
6. Hold Fast, Hold Down
7. Hot Cut Hardy
8. Cold Cut Hardy
9. Nail Header
10. Hardy Bending Forks
11. Roll Bar
12. Monkey Tool
13. Adjustable Twisting Wrench
15. Pritchel Plate
14. Handheld Bending Fork
16. Working with high carbon Tool Steel


PROJECTS, (TBD) Committee Selection

JJ_BPK
01-05-2010, 19:09
This is a great idea.

It may not twist everyone's pickle, but I'm sure that at one time or the other,, most of us have had busted gear on vehicles or needed a on-site built structure.

I can see scenarios where the locals start drooling over some on-site fabrication job to fix the local well pump or erected a local TV tower for the school,, or a 300 ft suspension bridge over the....yadi-yadi-yadi...

Count on this FOG ghosting the classes...

wet dog
01-05-2010, 19:14
Appreciate your support.

This is the type of discussion Bill and I were looking for.

I think we can keep the ex-wives yarn collection out of this one.

WD

adal
01-05-2010, 19:27
I am interested in the classes. It has been quite a few years since I played with blacksmith stuff. Been tryin to talk the wife into for years. This may help. :) Thanks for putting this together. adal

JJ_BPK
01-05-2010, 19:28
Appreciate your support.

This is the type of discussion Bill and I were looking for.

I think we can keep the ex-wives yarn collection out of this one.

WD

Old School Crafts such as animal husbandry, Aqua-farming, sanitation and water engineering projects & smithing are the basic tools we need and use for the Harts-n-Minds side of our missions.

It may not be an primary MOS,, may not be a secondary school like MFF or SCUBA, but it is needed..

I'm pretty sure it was while I was at Brag in 69' that I heard about teaching aqua-farming of Talapia to the indigs in SA, in an effort to make them less dependent on the coca farming.

With more and more embedded missions in rual areas such as SWA and Africa on the agenda,, someone needs to get crack'n on these alternative skill sets..

The Reaper
01-05-2010, 19:32
I think it is a great idea which would benefit current SF soldiers tremendously.

Can you imagine having a vehicle break on an extended mounted patrol and trying to locally fabricate a replacement part or repair, before BGs vectored in on your position? Sure beats calling for a rescue bird and blowing the vehicle in place.

You could also use the knowledge to help your local populace and win their support. Great concept, I look forward to the learning.

If this drops, I will sticky it for you. No charge.:D

TR

Kit Carson
01-05-2010, 19:47
If I can be any help, please let me know. I'll check on it daily.

Great idea, btw.

Bill Harsey
01-05-2010, 20:58
If I can be any help, please let me know. I'll check on it daily.

Great idea, btw.

Thanks Kit and all others who think this is worth undertaking.

Understanding something about forming steel is the important part. One does not need an anvil or fire "proper" to be able to form steel when the concepts are understood. Tools can be improvised.

I have made large chunks of both iron and steel into an anvil by just giving them a flat place to sit while hammering.

If one should ever read the book about an old boy named John M. Browning and the development of his firearms, the text and pictures would shock most because of all the tools he did not have in his early stark shops where the snow drifted in through the walls during the cold Utah winters.
Browning freehand forged many of his parts because he did not own a milling machine. His work was "forge, file and fit" by hand. He had a simple blacksmiths drill press to make actions with. After holes were carefully placed the rest was cold chiseled out by hand and filed to fit.

My point is his knowledge of the craft was his greatest tool.

Peregrino
01-05-2010, 21:42
Count me in. The curriculum is stuff I've been struggling through for years; it'll be nice to learn some of it "the easy way". I like the thread name.

wet dog
01-05-2010, 22:33
this should be fun. Now return to post #1 and print copy the POI. We'll refer back to it soon enough.

Also, if someone wants to start and culltivate a library of docs, websites and intel, please do so.

Remember, this thread is about the ODA.

TOMAHAWK9521
01-06-2010, 00:01
Since I'm broke-dick and don't feel like wasting my years chasing contracts I'm going back for another Bachelor's in Industrial Design. In the past, I built some concept products in soft goods for myself and the guys in my unit. However, as I have all kinds of ideas for designs in other media, blacksmithing is right up there at the top of skill sets I would love to pick up.

Go Devil
01-06-2010, 06:28
The links to video below should dispel the idea that one needs traditional gear or an electrified hut to heat metal.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQMkWHrt-i0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLXLjy8gu0g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blBzKTly4Yc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhwhVRj9L2U&feature=related

http://vimeo.com/6002687

Razor
01-06-2010, 15:47
Great idea! Not much to add, but I foresee learning a great deal.

wet dog
01-06-2010, 22:53
When time allows, produce, find, steal, (acquire) an anvil.

First rule, you can spend no money, well o.k. $20.

Advise you find something as heavy as you can lift, manage and store.

We are going to start by making a set of tongs, your first. Those who already have tongs, please post a few photos under 'Hephaetus Information", which will be our Library until other means present themselves. for those who have odd, unique anvils, please post photos also.

Your first tongs will be general purpose "Duck Bill". Start with 1/4" square stock iron, 3ft. long, (you'll need two pieces), $5.

If no access to heat, no worries, Tongs can be cold forged, you'll need a 16-24oz. Hammer, nothing fancy. We will be forging our own 'new' Hammers later, from Tool Steel. Best lesson yet.

Go Devil
02-04-2010, 20:55
Just thought I would stir the pot.


Anvil:

The image below is a 20 lb sledge with the head set in a stump; I would advise boring a hole in a better specimen such as elm or hack berry, but this should give you some idea. Just make sure that the force from your hammer travels through to the ground.

14404


Forge:

Pictured below is the first forge that I constructed.

2" pipe from the local hardware; nipples/2 Each, Flange/1 Each, T/1 Each, Cap, 1 Each, Brake Rotor or Drum/1 Each, and 3' of Pipe.

Weld or bolt flange to Brake Rotor and screw assembly together.
You must use the T with the nipple and cap instead of a 90; the T will prevent obstructions in the air stream and the cap allows for cleaning.

This forge can be connected to a vehicle exhaust with a length of flexible pipe sold at your local auto parts store or some sort of blower such as a hair dryer would suffice.

14406
14407


Basic Tools:

Left to Right, 16oz Ball Peen, Cutting Hammer, 6lb Sledge with short handle.

14408

Detail of Cutting Hammer.

14410

Left to Right, Files, Mill Smooth, Square, Flat Bastard, Round Bastard.

14409



The above items are cheap, readily available, serve multiple purposes, and are easy to store and transport.

Hope this helps.

I will post photos of some tongs tomorrow.

wet dog
02-04-2010, 21:03
Thanks for stirring the pot,...

I've been meaning to do so myself, just busy with other projects.

WD

p.s., excellent photos.

cold1
07-17-2010, 20:53
Great thread.
I am no Blacksmith by any means but i have made a few things with fire and steel. As far as primative forging I started with a hole in the ground, literally.

My first forge, age 10, was a hole in the ground. Nice NC red clay about 16 inches in diameter. Approx 16 inches deep. The grate was nothing more than a piece of heavy sheet metal cold chisel cut into a rough circle, then a 16d nail was used to punch holes in it. A 1 1/2 inch pipe 3 feet long was set at approx 30 degrees into the hole. The bottom of the pipe was resting in the bottom of the hole. The sheet metal grate was then set over that creating a hollow spce at the bottom of the hole. The grate was sealed around the edges with clay. For a blower I had scrounged a small squirrel cage fan of something. The fan was only 3 inches in diameter. It was duct taped to the remaining end of the pipe. A fire was built and one a bed of coals was established the blower was turned on. This baked all the clay around the edge of the grate for a tight seal.

The anvil was an 8lbs sledge laid on its side, the forging hammer was a 16oz Plumb.

There was many days and evenings turning big flat pieces to small pieces of many shapes and sizes. Not being able to afford the big nice knives that i wanted, I soon started making them. I still have a few from that time.

Stingray
07-18-2010, 01:34
I am a little late to the dance but I am in. Not with an ODA, hope that is okay I tag along? I have been researching this topic and am nearly ready to set up a home shop. The POI is printed and I am ready to learn. Great thread so far.

Sincerely,

Irishsquid
07-18-2010, 04:16
Gentlemen, I am in. Never done any blacksmithing, but I've wanted to for a long time...I have a friend who is supposed to start teaching me the basics...until then, I am going to be watching this thread like a hawk.

cold1
07-18-2010, 08:34
Some internet resources

The Artist Blacksmith Association of North America
http://www.abana.org/index.shtml

ABANAs Forums
http://www.abana.org/resources/forums/index.shtml

Anvilfire is another great resourse for the beginer and expert

http://www.anvilfire.com/

wet dog
08-18-2010, 23:19
I've located a website that illustrates a rather good home-shop sized gas forge.

http://www.zoellerforge.com/simplegasforge.html

My current forge is a old air tank, 3' long x 24" wide, 3/8" thick that held air pressure for our livestock water pump. I intend to build a new forge soon, considering this design, for ease in movement. Forges are one of those things that should be "copied" rather than "exploration and discovery". This design should be ok for most ODA needs.

WD

p.s. Sorry for the long absence of this thread, been kinda busy this summer. Take care all.


All interested parties,

Bill Harsey and I are pleased to announce a new thread specifically designed to teach, advise and coach the ODA blacksmith.

While many sites on the net are designed to educate the modern Blacksmith in fabrication, this thread is for the ODA.

Included is a rough Draft of the course outline POI.

Because we do not have our own area, we should make every attempt to keep this area clean and organized.

By a show of hands, please send PM to Bill or myself if you are interested.


The Blacksmith

Source # 1

The Shop, a.k.a. “Smithy”
1. Site Selection
2. Organizing the work space
a. Safety Equipment
b. Exploding conditions, environment
c. Protection and Clothing

Source # 2

Tools and Equipment
1. Anvil, anvil stand
2. Hammer(s)
3. Tongs
4. Anvil tools, Hardy(ies)
5. Coal forge tools
6. Coal forges
7. Additional tools and equipment
8. Marking and measuring tools
9. Modern Technology, the LP gas forge

Source # 3

Iron
1. What is Iron?
a. Wrought Iron
b. Cast Iron
c. What is steel?
1. Commercial forms of steel

Source # 4

Preliminary Skills
1. Coal
2. Fire Tending
3. Working with Tongs
4. How to heat your Iron Stock
5. Temperature Color Indication
6. Selecting a Forging Hammer, (see source # 2.2)
7. How to Shut Down Your Coal Forge

Source # 5 (Time for work)

1. How to use Anvil Tools
2. Tapering
3. Spreading
4. Upsetting
5. Bending
6. Scrolling
7. Twisting
8. Handheld Tooling

Source # 6

Forge Welding and Assembly
1. Forge Welding
a. Forge welding fire instructions
b. Different types of Forge welds
c. Forge welding Temp. Appearance(s)
2. Scarfing
3. Rivets, Nails, etc.
4. Mortise and Tenon
5. Shrinking, Collars, Wraps

Source # 7

Making your own Tools, this is SF Field craft NUMBER ONE
1. Resources Needed to Make you own Tools
2. Drift
3. Handheld punches
4. Slit Chisel
5. Twisting Bar
6. Hold Fast, Hold Down
7. Hot Cut Hardy
8. Cold Cut Hardy
9. Nail Header
10. Hardy Bending Forks
11. Roll Bar
12. Monkey Tool
13. Adjustable Twisting Wrench
15. Pritchel Plate
14. Handheld Bending Fork
16. Working with high carbon Tool Steel


PROJECTS, (TBD) Committee Selection

Crue
08-19-2010, 15:56
Pretty interesting thread going on at AR15 about blacksmithing in the backyard:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=635778&page=1

Bill Harsey
08-19-2010, 21:39
Thanks all for the interest shown in this, especially Wet Dog for getting this started.

Don't be afraid of anything when it comes to hot forming steel. The main thing is to get the steel warm enough to form under the hammer or shape it however needed.

The first thing I'd probably do (and how I did it) was to start collecting hammers of various weights and shapes from places like garage sales and second hand shops. Then find a chunk of steel to hit stuff on. This doesn't need to be an anvil proper, just a heavy flat chunk of steel that doesn't wobble when the work is placed and struck on it.
Go Devil gets it.
The next thing one needs is a fire to get stuff warm in. My very first forge was pretty simple and I used store bought charcoal grilling briquets in it. Don't laugh, it worked.

Edited to add: my background in working steel started by welding and fabricating for a logging side (at age 15) then blacksmithing and forging wood working tools that turned into knifemaking. I'd run just over two ton of welding rod for the logging side by the time I was done and that gave me some important clues about working with various alloys of steels. In other words some nearly catastrophic screw-ups made me start asking some important questions.

Crue
08-20-2010, 22:33
Mr Harsey,

Do you have any tips on determining if a metal is galvanized or not?

I want to start experimenting with scrap metal ( old pipes, plates, etc) but I hear that putting galvanized metal into heat/welding is a no-go.

Bill Harsey
08-21-2010, 16:27
Mr Harsey,

Do you have any tips on determining if a metal is galvanized or not?

I want to start experimenting with scrap metal ( old pipes, plates, etc) but I hear that putting galvanized metal into heat/welding is a no-go.

Crue,
Good question. Galvanization coating of Iron or steel usually means coated with zinc whether it is done with galvanic (electric) coating, dip coating or hot spray.

Electro plating zinc to steel gives a nice shiny surface, hot dipping is a more silver-gray finish like some steel pipes might have.
Usually an uncoated chunk of iron is very bright or black from fresh manufacturing depending on the final finish from the mill, or dark-rusty from oxidizing. If it rusts easy or is dark, it wasn't zinc plated or the zinc is gone and don't worry about it, much. That last layer of zinc going away on old steel it will look a little rusty. Be advised and careful.

I've gotten a little sick from welding galvanized pipe so heating that stuff up has real hazards (even outdoors) . It's best to not do if possible.
If you have to work on something galvanized, you can grind or "burn" off the zinc in the area that needs work... just be sure to do it outdoors in a nice breeze and stay up wind. When welding or brazing, you have to get fairly close and have your face in the work. That is the bad part if zinc is involved.

Go Devil
08-22-2010, 07:46
Mr Harsey,

Do you have any tips on determining if a metal is galvanized or not?

I want to start experimenting with scrap metal ( old pipes, plates, etc) but I hear that putting galvanized metal into heat/welding is a no-go.

Don't mess with heat and zink caotings!

Fully read the following link about DEATH by metal fumes.

http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/safety3/index.htm

If you are not familiar with the qualities of ferrous and non ferrous metals you need to do further reading beafore heating.

wet dog
11-15-2010, 19:30
Got a call today regarding tongs.

Does rebar make for good tongs? Yes, but alot of energy in put forth to create flat, square surfaces in order to place rivots or bolts. Suggested usuing 1/2" or 5/8" square stock.

Current prices have metal cheaper than fuel.

Don't waiste energy, (time), or fuel to heat up #5, or #6 rebar.

wet dog
06-16-2011, 23:25
Been absent from the thread, but have been busy with projects. Once a new digital camera is acquired or the old one fixed, I'll post a few images.

What has everyone been working on?

Short list for ODA blacksmiths:

Hammer
Anvil
Tongs
Forge, portable, (fire brick / gas).

Who's got what, where?

wet dog
06-21-2011, 00:41
A little hand cart:

1.25" tube steel, box measures 3'(L) x 2'(W) x 1'(H), wheels stand about 4' high.

Center point allows for heavy loads. I filled the box with rocks and steel guessing at about 400 lbs. Tall narrow wheels making for easy sharp turns on rough terrain, (uneven ground, sage brush, etc), is mitigated.

Outside blacksmith shop. The old barn is getting a new roof soon so I made the hand cart to move materials and dunage, figured it could also stand in when fixing fence, carrying hand tools, spools of barbed-wire, come-a-long, etc.

Go Devil
06-23-2011, 09:14
WD,

That is a great tool you produced!
How did you sort out the spokes and rim, or were these on hand?

wet dog
06-23-2011, 12:19
WD,

That is a great tool you produced!
How did you sort out the spokes and rim, or were these on hand?

The hub is 2.5" in width, 5" long, the tire, 1.5". Spokes on the tire side are centered. Spokes on the hub side are offset.

Horse drawn wagons large or small had what is called "Proper Dish". Dish creates a truss-like situation in the wheel when the wagon is turning.

Take a look at the bottom image of the link, the two carpenter squares, the arch of the axel, etc.

http://hansenwheel.com/products/wheels/wheel_dish.html

My little hard cart is verticle, not expected to carry more than I can push or pull. In this case, it's only as good as the driver, but I'm sure I could carry a keg of beer well enough.

As for the spokes on the wheels, I just guessed. Thought I could make a lighter wheel, then just heavy wood ones.


Edited: I've often thought, in my ODA time down range, how a cart could be used in a small village, what ecomony of motion/trade, good will could be had, if I had made a few carts for children, families, the village women or farmer.

I fixed a few carts in Thailand, made also a floating tool box for a farmer. I lashed a wood pallet to an inflated tractor tube to float across his rice paddy. Out in the middle of his field, was his house. Carrying tools, supplies from the road was a chore.

The new device, saved him a lot of time and effort, giving us more time to talk and discuss the region.

wet dog
06-29-2011, 21:49
The hub is 2.5" in width, 5" long, the tire, 1.5". Spokes on the tire side are centered. Spokes on the hub side are offset.

Thought I'd add a few close ups of the wheel and spokes.

As you can see, it's not fancy, I could have done better with the welds but used an old arc welder, not a smooth wire feed.

I used Wet Dog math to get the spacing. Hope this helps.

Go Devil
06-30-2011, 05:27
I think thats great! I've been using a wood sled pulled behind the Willys for those heavy tasks; a pain in the ass with the long turning radius.

MVP
07-05-2011, 14:24
Many years ago I needed a large surface anvil to use on my bench. Height was an issue I solved by using a 1" thick 12 x 12 inch steel plate. On one side I milled a step 1 inch wide and 12 an inch deep. On the opposite side of the step I drilled two lines of various size holes to use for pin removal. I cut (milled) a 90 degree groove through one set of holes to use ehne removing pins from round objects. This is very similiar in concept to the gunsmiths "bench block".

The block stayed at my parents house when I let for Germany the first time and has been there since it was too heavy and awkward to move. My alternate "portable anvil" built at the same time is a 7 inch long piece of small railroad iron that I milled flat. That one has been on many a deployment and is unbelievably handy.

Last year I bought a 50lb anvil from harbor freight but the small chunk of railroad iron still gets most of the jobs in my shop.

Go Devil
07-06-2011, 08:05
Wrapped up this little project on the 4th.

Piece of leaf spring, scrap leather, and copper wire.

19441
19442
19443
19444
19445
19446
19447

Go Devil
07-08-2011, 13:57
Yes, I dead-lifted this ol' girl up on that elm stump. Won't be doing that again anytime soon!
I don't know what the anvil weighs, but that is my six pounder on the top.
19468

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 05:09
I chased the spiders out of the forge over the weekend and made some fire pit tools.

I used mild steel, .5"x.5"

I've adjusted the griddle to set level, and it swings out of the fire and is easily adjustable.

29306

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 05:11
29307

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 05:12
29308

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 05:14
29309

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 05:16
29310

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 05:18
29311

JJ_BPK
11-26-2014, 05:30
Looks great.
Like the fire pit also.
Is the grill attached to the swing arm??

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 06:03
Looks great.
Like the fire pit also.
Is the grill attached to the swing arm??

Thank you.
Yes, it is attached.

PrimalAndrew
11-26-2014, 12:55
I've located a website that illustrates a rather good home-shop sized gas forge.

http://www.zoellerforge.com/simplegasforge.html




About how heavy would we speculate the finished simple gas forge to be in lb's?

Go Devil
11-26-2014, 15:56
About how heavy would we speculate the finished simple gas forge to be in lb's?

Depends upon the size of work that you would be interested in completing.

PrimalAndrew
11-26-2014, 23:07
Knives varying in length but typically around the 8.5 range.
Not too large of a forge obviously but still interested in weight speculation.

Looking to "learn by doing" in order to provide an additional skill set for my joes.

Irishsquid
04-02-2015, 11:55
Finally picked up a decent anvil and forge, so I'm back to forging. Slow but steady process of forging a karambit from a piece of a broken jackhammer bit. I'll post up when it's finished.

Go Devil
03-05-2016, 17:23
My daughter asked for a Hope Chest.

I chose to replicate a Viking Age chest that was found in Sweden.

The body is 5/4 oak from the farm of a friend and was hand finished.
I applied a red ocher milk paint and hand rubbed linseed oil into the surface.
I had a great time with the forge work, especially recreating the lock and key
I added a copper Norse World Tree to the back.

32030

32031

32032

32033

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Go Devil
03-05-2016, 17:30
32035

32036

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Go Devil
03-05-2016, 17:38
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Go Devil
03-05-2016, 17:45
32049

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Go Devil
03-05-2016, 17:49
32055

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miclo18d
03-05-2016, 18:20
32055

32056

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32060
Astonishing!

Final pics coming soon?

SF_BHT
03-05-2016, 19:53
Can not wait for the final images....

Peregrino
03-06-2016, 09:17
Phenomenal work. That exceeds the quality of SCA Laurel "masterpieces" I've seen. How many hours involved?

Razor
03-07-2016, 08:41
Strong work!

TOMAHAWK9521
03-07-2016, 11:58
Excellent craftsmanship!! :lifter

Go Devil
03-08-2016, 18:10
Thank you for the kind comments.

32064

Go Devil
03-08-2016, 18:14
32065

Go Devil
03-08-2016, 18:15
32066

miclo18d
03-09-2016, 18:42
Holy sheister, you are a bad ass!

VIKING AF!!!!

:D