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Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 13:06
I'm in the middle of a 48-hour, no-sleep project. I do this a lot.

Any tricks you gents want to share for staying alert with no sleep?

Here are mine:


Chew
Coffee
Fruit juice
Cold water face splashes
Skittles


:lifter

magician
07-22-2004, 13:12
Copenhagen, brother.

:)

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 13:15
Originally posted by magician
Copenhagen, brother.

:)

Hey, my list got messed up! Fixed now.

Team Sergeant
07-22-2004, 13:15
Thats the civilian method...

The military technique is to hand a person a live frag pull the pin and return in 48 hours to replace the pin.

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 13:19
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Thats the civilian method...

The military technique is to hand a person a live frag pull the pin and return in 48 hours to replace the pin.

LOL

Stay awake and WORK, TS!

magician
07-22-2004, 13:25
In extremis, I have resorted to placing small pebbles on the ground and then kneeling on them.

:)

Sacamuelas
07-22-2004, 13:46
- periodic brief exercise
- diet coke ( A LOT OF IT)
- FWIW, things like skittles really ought to be avoided as they will cause a large fluctuation in blood glucose levels and subsequent lethargy. They do work for a very short term initial period but not for a 48 hour type job.

Solid
07-22-2004, 14:14
Uncomfortable positions. Try to make use of joint weaknesses (knees, for example- sit on your knees, kneel, whatever) the pain keeps you awake and makes you work faster.
In my experience, all foodstuffs (including coffee) eventually puts you to sleep.
The only substance that I've made use of which has worked is water. Not only does hydration (but not overhydration!!) prevent headaches, but if you drink 1.5 litres, it's unlikely that you will be able to sleep as you have to keep going to the bathroom. This does interrupt your work to a slight degree, but the disadvantages are outweighed by the amount of work possible.

HTH,

Solid

TF Kilo
07-22-2004, 15:18
Another not recommended technique that I used to frequent was ripped fuel. I would usually consume one or two once the primary mission was over and we were doing stuff in static positions prior to going home.

By the time it wore off I was bagged out snaplinked into the roll cage of my ride with my neckgator snaplinked to my body armor acting as a sling so my head would be comfortable.

Don't overdo the caffene though. I went to shoot with some friends of mine once, and had downed a thermos of my extra thick expresso. I did shoot some, but I stopped simply because I didn't feel that I was safe.. everyone's a safety. Only thing I shot then was pictures and video.

End result: the "good friends" video on the video link (http://www.skynet-mk2.com)

NousDefionsDoc
07-22-2004, 16:54
Plan better and don't procrastinate until the last minute and have to do 48 hour shifts with no sleep.:munchin

There is really not much that will keep you awake and writing if that's what your doing. When I was on ambush, I would get a little Copenhagen on my fingers and wipe them in the corners of my eyes. It'll keep you awake, but you can't do much but shoot and run.

Copenhagen and iced tea without the ice.

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 17:00
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Plan better and don't procrastinate until the last minute and have to do 48 hour shifts with no sleep.

Yes, SIR!

Sacamuelas
07-22-2004, 17:32
Words of wisdom by NDD. :D

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 17:43
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Words of wisdom by NDD. :D

NousDefionsDoc
07-22-2004, 17:55
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer


I don't care who your clients are, you need sleep to function.

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 17:58
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I don't care who your clients are, you need sleep to function.

Awwwwww, I take it all back, Doc. ;)

Ambush Master
07-22-2004, 18:22
We were issued "Green Hornets" time released amphetamine !!!
You could go for days !!!

Sacamuelas
07-22-2004, 18:26
Well Damn RL... If I would have known you were going to be like that, I would have left up my original photoshop image I had pasted here. ITs on the work computer so I don't have access to it anymore. :mad: LOL

I may just have to make another one. HAHA:D

Huey14
07-22-2004, 19:16
I used to have to do night shifts. One of the best things I found was:

A: The odd, say every eight hours, Red Bull (or similer).

B: Walk around.

C: Just sleep anyway. Comms could wake me up when I missed my check in call. ;)

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 19:17
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I don't care who your clients are, you need sleep to function.

Seriously, would you blow off a mission because you're tired?

Yeah, didn't think so. :cool:

NousDefionsDoc
07-22-2004, 19:39
Well, no. But if you'd quit trying to provoke me on the internet and do your damn job, you'd be finished by now and could go to sleep.:cool:

24601
07-22-2004, 19:42
I learned never to fall asleep on a shift for fear of becoming an IV pincushion.

Just have someone poke you every now and then. PT helps me stay awake too. I've used the water method with success too.

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 19:43
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Well, no. But if you'd quit trying to provoke me on the internet and do your damn job, you'd be finished by now and could go to sleep.:cool:

I'm the one doing the provoking? LMAO

The Reaper
07-22-2004, 19:46
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Seriously, would you blow off a mission because you're tired?

Yeah, didn't think so. :cool:

I might if I was so tired that my thinking and judgement were affected, as they are if you do not get enough sleep to recover.

Eventually, you collapse.

I have heard it said that if you keep someone up for 7-10 days continuously, they can die because some bodily fuctions only occur during sleep.

Terry, ask the Doctor for us.

TR

Sacamuelas
07-22-2004, 20:02
I can see you now RL....

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 20:05
Saca, that pic is offensive. Diet soda is for women.

LOL Well done!

NousDefionsDoc
07-22-2004, 20:05
LOL

The Reaper
07-22-2004, 20:30
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Saca, that pic is offensive. Diet soda is for women.

LOL Well done!

I drink Diet Soda, Counsel.

What are you implying?

TR

Bill Harsey
07-22-2004, 20:34
Originally posted by The Reaper
I drink Diet Soda, Counsel.

What are you implying?

TR Aint no way out RL, may as well just go back to work and fill in for the dozen or coworkers who can't "git 'er done!"

Solid
07-22-2004, 20:36
TR- Peter Tripp stayed awake for longer than that an may have suffered severe psychological repricussions as a result. Certainly, he began to experience delusions which prevented him from operating on a day-to-day basis. Experiments of sleep deprivation performed on cats suggests that sleep deprivation will eventually kill you.

HTH,

Solid

Roguish Lawyer
07-22-2004, 21:50
Originally posted by The Reaper
I drink Diet Soda, Counsel.

What are you implying?

TR

What do you infer from that?

I am now drinking beer. I prefer it to diet soda.

The Reaper
07-22-2004, 22:10
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Diet soda is for women.

What do you infer from that?

I am now drinking beer. I prefer it to diet soda.

I am inferring that you are calling me a girlie-man because I drink diet soda.

Maybe you should ask one of the gents here with the green felt hats who know me if I strike them as effeminate?

Or just step up to the plate, and come see for yourself.

As a military servicemember, I am not permitted to drink beer during duty hours because I prefer it to diet soda. In fact, on most deployments, we are not permitted to drink at all.

Legal offices have different policies, I am sure.

TR

NousDefionsDoc
07-23-2004, 08:45
Maybe you should ask one of the gents here with the green felt hats who know me if I strike them as effeminate?

Uh, no.

magician
07-23-2004, 09:56
Originally posted by Solid
TR- Peter Tripp stayed awake for longer than that an may have suffered severe psychological repricussions as a result. Certainly, he began to experience delusions which prevented him from operating on a day-to-day basis. Experiments of sleep deprivation performed on cats suggests that sleep deprivation will eventually kill you.

Wow. Maybe that is why I am so fucked up.

:)

Who is Peter Tripp?

Sweetbriar
07-23-2004, 10:39
Google:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/coping_with_shiftwork/96742

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p980301b.html

Several articles on Tripp blame his divorces and many jobs on the sleep-dep stunt, but the payola scandal broke at the same time so it may be the case that the poor character came first. I dunno.

Solid
07-23-2004, 14:05
Yep! It's important to note the immediate effects of delusion and dementia, though... Those were definetly caused by the sleep deprivation.

Interestingly, although not necessarily applicable to PS boardmembers, one way of staying awake is to remove the presence of 'zeitgebers' from your working environment. Zeitgebers are 'time givers', or both ontogenous and exogenous factors which trigger cycles within your body (like the sleep cycle). While we try to alter our internal sleep cycle with caffeine and other drugs, we can also alter those external factors. Try eating dinner later, or continuing to eat food while working. Also, work under artificial light with no sight of the outside world. Controlled temperature can also help, as can a maintained level of background noise. Controlling these factors gives you a degree of control over your bodily cycles, like the sleep cycle.

Solid

Smokin Joe
07-23-2004, 15:33
I read a book once. (Imagine that) The book was a tribute to some Rangers and some "Special" Soldiers about a now famous event. In this book they briefly dropped the word the "Drone Zone". It was described that the Drone Zone occured after you have been awake for more than 24hrs and how these "Special" Soldiers were trained to work right through the Drone Zone with little effect on there work.

Also in Billy Waughs book he says that he usually only got a few hours of sleep a night like 3-4 hours a night day in and day out without it effecting his quality of work.

My questions is not if this is true or not but, can you do it? Can you train yourself to be able to stay awake for 36-48hrs without it seriously effecting your skills? Whatever they maybe such as being a Lawyer in RL's case, Cop, a Soldier, a Mechanic or a Doctor.

Pandora
07-23-2004, 15:49
No trouble staying awake here... insomonia.

Other than sleeping pills (not something I want to try), any suggestions for countering it?

NousDefionsDoc
07-23-2004, 16:02
PT
Take a HOT shower or bath about an hour before you need to be asleep
Don't eat heavy at night
Limit TV, computer and video time late
Read
PT
Avoid tea, coke and caffeine after lunch
check stress levels
deep breathing


I have it too. PT helps me more than anything else.

Solid
07-23-2004, 17:05
I suffered from sleeplessness about a month ago. Much depends on if it arises from physical or psychological causes. Are you particularly stressed about anything?

Melatonin pills are natural and may have a positive effect, so you might want to give them a shot.

Solid

Huey14
07-23-2004, 20:55
I still get insomnia even though I haven't worked shifts for 6 weeks now.

It sucks big time. But on the up side, I think better at night now.

Pandora
07-23-2004, 21:19
Thanks for the input.

Haven't tried melatonin - had tried kava-kava, but read it is unhealthy after all so dropped it. Hardly ever have caffeine after 19:00. Don't eat much in evening. Not an aerobics bunny - mostly walking and pilates. (Note: Female push-ups at 40 are guaranteed the winning $10,000 on 'Funniest Home Videos, aren't they?) "Not allowed," to read in bed. LOL - total black-out rules apply for my hard working guy. Fair enough.

Pattern: Can not let go the need to be in a constant state of awareness/alert. I can be dead tired, nodding and almost out, then snap fully awake and head out on the prowl for glitches in the matrix or new incoming information. This pattern repeats over and over nightly. Years of on call or being the "go to... " ??

Long/short: I am certain the key in my case is in learning skills to turn the switch to "off" when it is not mission critical. Brain vs. body. Body tires, brain doesn't as it should.

I can't think of a better place to learn skills related to this type of behavior than here. It feels quite lame to post whines in this arena when it comes to job stress or responsibility, but if I can't learn from the knowledge and experience here, I can't learn skills anywhere. Shoot at will - Kevlar donned.

Sock it to me...

Solid
07-24-2004, 04:45
I think I am familiar with the state you describe. I found that intense, almost destructive, PT drained my body so effectively that my brain, while still alert, could NOT prevent my body from going to sleep. My PT schedule involved half marathons and ridiculous systems of pressups, situps, and explosive sports like basketball. Within two days, I was sleeping again.

On the other hand, however, I found that my sleep was not necessarily good sleep- I would wake up continuously during the night (maybe a result of the brain?) but over time this faded and now I sleep fine.

You might also want to see a work-stress psychologist for possible behavioural treatments?

Melatonin is a naturally occuring substance within the brain which is involved in the sleep-shutdown cycle. Supplementing it in the short term will not have any negative effects, although your body might become dependent in the long term.

HTH,

Solid

TF Kilo
07-24-2004, 06:18
Originally posted by The Reaper
I am inferring that you are calling me a girlie-man because I drink diet soda.

Maybe you should ask one of the gents here with the green felt hats who know me if I strike them as effeminate?

Or just step up to the plate, and come see for yourself.

As a military servicemember, I am not permitted to drink beer during duty hours because I prefer it to diet soda. In fact, on most deployments, we are not permitted to drink at all.

Legal offices have different policies, I am sure.

TR

My felt hat's not green... However,

Having met The Reaper, I wouldn't refer to him as "effeminate". I wouldn't recommend it either.


Originally posted by Ambush Master
We were issued "Green Hornets" time released amphetamine !!!
You could go for days !!!

I used something along those lines during OIF during a mission. I don't know if the ones Doc had were extra strength or what, but I didn't like the side effects.

Pandora
07-24-2004, 07:07
Thanks, Solid.

brownapple
07-24-2004, 08:02
Originally posted by Smokin Joe

Also in Billy Waughs book he says that he usually only got a few hours of sleep a night like 3-4 hours a night day in and day out without it effecting his quality of work.

I've been doing the same for most of my life. Sleeping more than 6 hours a night actually results in me being tired the next day.
I assume that it is due to natural sleep cycles and need (individuals vary). I do remember being told once that the body needs 2 hours of sleep per 24 for those bodily functions mentioned, the balance of the time needed was for psychological reasons.

Solid
07-24-2004, 09:20
It is highly dependent on the person and the age. Teenagers and babies need more sleep than average. Theories suggest that there are two kinds of sleep- physical recovery and mental recovery. They differ in their 'base levels' or the 'lowest' wave sets they reach during sleep. Physically restorative sleep often requires less time than psychologically restorative sleep. It is possible that you require little psychologically restorative sleep, and that, as you say, your sleep cycles are devoted primarily to physical restoration.

It's all theoretical, of course.

Solid

Roguish Lawyer
07-24-2004, 10:14
Originally posted by The Reaper
I am inferring that you are calling me a girlie-man because I drink diet soda.

Maybe you should ask one of the gents here with the green felt hats who know me if I strike them as effeminate?

Or just step up to the plate, and come see for yourself.

No, you're no girlie-man. But I assume you drink the stuff because you are watching your figure. I can't stand the taste, personally. If I could, I'd drink it too. :)

I'll come out for my whoopin as soon as I am able.

Guy
07-24-2004, 10:35
Power-naps!;)

It's not the quantity of sleep. It's the QUALITY!

Solid
07-24-2004, 11:00
Guy- that's exactly right. Marathon runners often sleep only 6 hours after running the marathon, which is little given the physical exertion. However, their brain waves reflect the fact that almost instantly they drop down into physically repairing sleep waves, making the little sleep they get count for more.

Solid

DanUCSB
07-24-2004, 15:08
Interesting thread. Here's something I've always been curious about. I've heard a lot of people mentioning the desire to get 'good' sleep (read: sleeping solidly through the whole night/sleep period). But for as long as I can remember, I've always gotten more restful sleep if I could wake up a couple times during the night, even to the point of actually preferring having a guard shift rather than not.

The only reason I can think of for this is having the sense of 'really' getting sleep, rather than being cheated out of it by sleeping straight through. Sounds kind of odd, I know. Anyone else experience this?

Desert Fox
07-25-2004, 11:58
Under the Roman Empire a sleeping sentry was sentenced to death.

Solid
07-25-2004, 16:25
Dan:
This is just a guess, but there are two possible explanations for your approach to 'good sleep'. The first is that you have conditioned yourself to appreciate interrupted sleep, perhaps during your time in the military where you were expected (and rewarded through lack of punishment) for interrupting your natural sleep cycles. However, this would likely be true of your fellow soldiers as well if this were the explanation.

Sleep moves in cycles as your mind shifts between wave lengths. Each shift has different effects on the body and the mind, although there are no solid hypotheses on why exactly these shifts occur. Normally, the shifts occur from 'light sleep' down to 'deep sleep', or REM sleep. The brain waves will shift up and down several times a night. It is possible that your brain prefers to shift up and down several times a night. By interrupting the cycle, with guard duty, it stops the 'ascending' period and, when you return to sleep, resumes descent and therefore elongates REM/ NREM paralysis/deep sleep.

Just a guess, I'm only a student. I read about a similar case, however. My bet is that it's behavioral and biological.

Solid

2VP
07-25-2004, 17:52
The CF is trialing caffine gum. I don't have any numbers but if I remember correctly it looked like the gum definately helped.

Solid
07-25-2004, 18:25
Caffeine is only useful for a burst, like any drug. They should simply train all soldiers to cope at night through long night time ops and long periods without sleep. The Drone Zone, which is actually a psych term by now, can be broken or minimized.

Solid

The Reaper
07-25-2004, 18:38
Originally posted by Solid
Caffeine is only useful for a burst, like any drug. They should simply train all soldiers to cope at night through long night time ops and long periods without sleep. The Drone Zone, which is actually a psych term by now, can be broken or minimized.

Solid

Based on your vast operational experience?

TR

Solid
07-25-2004, 18:57
I knew I should've added the study, but I wanted to get the names right. Tests were performed by both the Swiss Army and an independent psychologist on a) soldiers and b) shift workers to determine the effects of night shift work and how to elongate attention spans etc. The result was to alter the current shift routine (which was daynight alternating every week) to night for several weeks and then day and so forth. The Swiss study concluded that to expand attention during typical 'down' periods (ie: night), the best measure to take was to train the soldiers at night over long periods, thereby forcing them to cope mentally when tired. This technique has only been implemented, I believe, on officers.

I of course have no experience whatsoever with true field work.

Sorry,

Solid

EDIT- one of the control groups was maintained on artificial stimulants like caffiene, and eventually suffered from loss of fine motor skills, slowed response times, and decreases in immune efficiency akin to the exhaustion period of the general stress response.

magician
07-27-2004, 03:11
the only "natural" solution for sleep management that I have found is hard, long, aerobic PT.

nothing is better than hitting the exercise bike, the treadmill, or the elliptical machine for a solid hour. Back when I was in PT Monster mode, I was able to freestyle swim for a solid hour. I accomplished this by using a mask and snorkle, hand paddles, and fins. I would get in the pool, warm up for ten laps, then hit my timer, and go for a solid hour. Then I would warm down with a final ten laps.

after doing this, I had to eat something, like a can of tuna, immediately. Then I was able to go home, kick back, and sure enough, that night, I would sleep long, deep and hard, and wake the next day feeling like a million bucks.

it took me about six months of hard PT'ing to get to that point. It took about two months of relative inactivity to lose it.

now, I am searching for a pool long enough here in Thailand to do it again. If anyone knows where one is, I will move there and live there.

my feeling was, "take care of the body, the mind will follow."

living a very clean lifestyle, avoiding alcohol, tobacco (doh!), caffeine, and red meat all really, really helped. Getting outside for at least an hour a day was a big help, as well. I used to go hiking with my doggie. Those days when we went for monster hikes....like all the way around Lum's Pond (14 miles), were the best. She loved it. We always stopped at the doggie store where she got to go in and select a bone. She carried it to the register, I paid for it, then she carried it out to the car. When we got home, she would head straight for her rug, munch the shit out of that thing, drink a ton of water, take a long piss, then walk upstairs to the bedroom. She would pause at the bottom of the stairs and just look at me, saying telepathically, "aren't you coming?" Of course I was.

best days of my life.

swatsurgeon
07-27-2004, 08:03
just do a surgical residency, a trauma fellowship and you'll wonder how and why anyone sleeps....it's down time that is too precious to waste....
like anything else it's the training to do it. Not one of you went out first day of a 5 mile run and did 20...you work up to it. The body and minds efficiency is increased to work at near max if you train it...it is not rocket science, but physiology. Because most of us now only do it sporatically rather than as the rule, we get tired after 40-48 hours of being awake, alert, on top of our game, we fell the need to 'shut down'.
To answer the original question, train up to it and it becomes the normal functioning level....you guys knew that , you just wanted all of the medical people to chime in and burn energy.

danjam
07-28-2004, 08:12
A strong "mud" coffee always helped me.

The hardest times when doing all nighters was/is the cold, I tend to want to wrap up and that induces z's. However! When on duty, paranoia, keeps my eyes open. I get teased because I never let my guard down, you know, keep weapon in ready position, or easy reach, never shut my eyes even when the rest of the patrol has gone into lala land, and if there are others up, talk to them, or make the coffee. When you need to be quiet, it's just up to will power and training I reckon, oh, and paranoia.

In my reckless days when "friends" were taking speed and extacy for partying all night I took something called "guruana" (a herb) This worked wonders and no side effects except from staying wide awake.

swatsurgeon
07-28-2004, 14:02
be careful of caffeine related/containing products....the 'rebound' effect is exaggerated the longer you attempt to function at a higher level after the caffeine wears off. i.e., you get more tired. Basic 1/2 life of caffeine is 3-5 hours....it's still effective but proportionally less as time goes on and the next time it is used to achieve the same effect it takes more (based on the bodies metabolism and being geared up to metabolize it) of the substance to achieve the same effect.
Also the tremor effect is worse the higher level activity you are performing....gross motor skills are well preserved, fine motor skills are shaky..
The physiology is that once the stimulation occurs between nerve and muscle there is a release of the neurotransmitter and instead if it being broken down (as it usually is) that effect is blocked so the stimulation continues......sounds like a viagra story but it is basically the same

Razor
07-30-2004, 22:07
Originally posted by Desert Fox
Under the Roman Empire a sleeping sentry was sentenced to death.

Also could be on the frontier in the early 1800s within the US Army (just read about it in 'Undaunted Courage').

monkeydan
08-17-2004, 12:08
I've been doing the same for most of my life. Sleeping more than 6 hours a night actually results in me being tired the next day.

So that's why I be needin 10 hours a day:D . Seriously though, we work 3 months of nights and then 3 months of days. The first week of nights SUCKS, but it get's easier after that. Then the only thing that screws with mental alertness is having to come off night shift on Monday morning, report to the range on Tuesday for a good day of shooting and then going back on night shift Wednesday evening. Bah (is that bitching?). I also agree with paranoia. Plenty of the people I work with have no problem sleeping on duty. They especially like the one up/one down trick. But my initial counseling included a promise of an article 15 if I was caught sleeping on duty. So I can't sleep on shift even if I trust my buddy and could REALLY use a cat nap.

Dan

BulletcatchR
09-10-2004, 11:27
Hello all,lurker become member today.
This being my first post and all I'll introduce myself.
Hi,I'm Stan,
aka BulletcatchR on the WWW.


http://www.bwgen.com/theory.htm

I've had good results using this program not only for increasing alertness but also to help me relax,and help induce REM sleep.
My experience with BWGEN started while working a security terminal days on end and it was a computergeek who turned me on to it.
I have since adapted an MP3 player to store various presets to allow some portability.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=brainwave+beat+generator&btnG=Google+Search

for more opinions,it's free and worth trying.There seems to be quite abit of discussion about this proggy.


Second,If you've read my profile I'm married to an Acupuncturist.We met thru a mutual interest in Chinese Yoga,tai Chi and ChiKung.Personally I took EMT training thru work in the late 70's and tho I have an interest in emergency medicine and like to keep informed it's not my cup of tea so I never persued it professionally.
I've always had an interest in Traditional Chinese Medicine,at the same time I was studying "Emergency Transportation of the Sick and Injured" I was also studying "A Barefot Doctor's Manual,the Official Translation of the Chinese Paramedical Manual".

It was my wife who had the gumtion to 'change course' professionally and go to school to get her Masters and Doctor of Oriental Medicine.The student loan payments were way less than what I was spending on treatments at the time...I'm a layman(my wife adds a "Z" and calls me lazyman) and I admit it.I learn what works for myself and practice it,I don't 'like' treating other people.

If you're hooked up with a 'dojo' maybe there is a practitioner or someone knowledgable with Chinese medicine to consult ,,,I don't expect or even want anyone to just take my words,I will offer a suggestion that has worked for me.

Acupoint 'Stomach 36' can be stimulated to increase energy.I think the translation of the point's name in Chinese is 'Leg Three Mile'.I don't know how they come up with some of the names,but they've been around for thousands of years.This practice has helped me in numerous instance to keep driving on.

I also use 'percussion' massage technique on the top area of my skull,where numerous meridians meet.Again another tool to explore(along with Qi-Gong to increase energy levels).



I don't feel 100% comfortable 'prescribing' anything,again these are just some suggestions I'm offering.My HH6 helps me live drug free(I've been on both the Brett Favre and the Rush Limbough 'diet')dealing with chronic pain.
I still keep a bottle of Vicadin and Oxy in the freezer,but haven't touched them in years.What Chinese Medicine has taught ME is that drugs(whether prescribed,herbal,or OTC(caffiene,nicotine,suger..)will suppress the pain,or give my 'foot a push',but in the long run I will pay the tax with my body.
Exercising the CHI,training(Chinese yoga) every day,works for me,I feel better today at 47 than I did at 27(which isn't saying much,hehehe),and I wish I knew then what I know now.Martial Arts isn't just for fighting,training the body to STAY healthy is an art in itself.


When HH6 was in school we discussed a project to 're-write' the Barefoot Doctor's Manual into an updated more concise book dealing with 'emergency' and field medicine topics.Her professional interests havedeveloped and focused on OBGYN and breast health/cancer survival,and the 'manual' is the back burner till we win the lotto or retire.Typically the last thing I'd do is bring up Chinese Medicine in a room full of 'Western' practitioners,,,I got too many scars already,but these are hard times we are in and if one person can benefit I think it's worth it.

TNX for your patience.


BulletcatchR

NousDefionsDoc
09-10-2004, 20:13
Welcome aboard bulletcatcher.

pulque
09-20-2004, 19:21
This could be interesting maybe. The Allen Brain Atlas main mission is to map all active genes in the brain (by location)

Allen's brain research institute gets Army grant -Military wants help with its sleep-deprivation studies (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/187300_armybrain21.html?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=3)

aSk^Ghost
12-05-2004, 00:38
ALL OF YOU TAKE A BREAK AND CUT THAT DIET COKE OUT!

>>>ASPARTAME<<< http://www.lightparty.com/Health/DietCokeAspartame.html

gits
12-06-2004, 00:58
Dont waste your time on diet coke drink Bawls! I've kept myself awake overnight drinkin just 1 or 2 bottles of that stuff. Check it out at www.bawls.com kinda tastes like sprite but loaded with tons of caffeine i beleive 80mg in 12 ounces. Only bad thing is if you drink too much then your hands start to shake.

aSk^Ghost
12-06-2004, 11:37
anyone ever thought about posting something that could be used far from civilation ? any place where you can`t buy Bawls or Coke

SP5IC
12-06-2004, 18:03
Tobacco bits under your eyelids?

SFRADIOMAN
12-06-2004, 20:05
Back in the old days of speed keys (AKA vibroplex bugs) when we were working 12 on and 12 off and had to cover for guys getting wounded, R&R and the like we had to go a couple days at a time without sleep. AND sometimes just for fun we would 'dittybop' on the net.

Usually would start with just a single dit, followed by a dit dit and eventually you woud think duelling banjos was a slow dance. It would last maybe 10 to 15 minutes and go quiet for a couple more hours. Helped break the monotony.

One day I got called into the SGM's office and there were 2 dorky looking guys sitting with a couple 3" books in front of them. Seems like they had been monitoring the net and had picked up all of these violations to military security and wanted me to identify who the operators were. I asked for call signs and since there were none I told them it must have been VC jamming our frequencies. SMAJ said to them, "well there you have it, goodbye." They sat there not knowing what to do and he told them to go away which they finally did. My first contact with ASA but not the last but alas that didn't come from staying awake.

So when you new guys need to stay awake get out the old leg key and ditty for awhile.

SFRadioman

Spartan359
12-30-2004, 08:19
[/QUOTE]SP5IC Tobacco bits under your eyelids? [QUOTE]

How does that help? :eek:

QRQ 30
12-30-2004, 08:52
I really think some of it is psychological. While in college I stayed up three days studying for a particularly difficult exam. I loaded up on No-Doz and coffee but in the end, when I finished the exam I immediately passed out and someone woke me when it was time to leave. I am convinced that I stayed awake due to necessity rather than any drug supplements.

Desert Fox
12-30-2004, 13:17
I really think some of it is psychological.

When I really enjoy something, I can stay awake for a very long time, even after a long sleep depravation.
And no, I dont mean what you think... :D

scubasam
12-30-2004, 13:41
Being the smart man that I am I used my mathmatical skills to deduce this process to keep myself awake...

X=dip (keeps you awake pretty well)
Y=coffee (keeps you awake pretty well)

so what happens when you mix the two?

X + Y = Dipping coffee grounds...

Damn.. thought my heart was gonna beat out've my chest... Didn't go to sleep thats for damn sure. But couldn't work either, couldn't focus worth shit.. Oh well..

Razor
12-30-2004, 13:55
Works great in Suck School, though, and Mother Green is kind enough to provide you a new 'dip' in every MRE.

12B4S
01-01-2005, 03:12
I really think some of it is psychological. While in college I stayed up three days studying for a particularly difficult exam. I loaded up on No-Doz and coffee but in the end, when I finished the exam I immediately passed out and someone woke me when it was time to leave. I am convinced that I stayed awake due to necessity rather than any drug supplements.

Staying awake....... Tactical or everyday life? At this point looks like everyday type.
1. Use your thumb nail to light kitchen matches (if you're drowsy slow... YOU will wake right up)
2. An SFC on my team had a great trick.... used in the NCO club, Rod and Gun club etc... but hey, could work sober too.
:D
He'd rest his elbow on the bar chin in palm and little finger between his teeth... hell you guys can guess what follwed if he nodded off for a sec.

3. Consume a whole bunch of Exlax :)
4. keep moving..... #3 will help with that.........
5. Seriously, what it comes down to is what QRQ posted........ or mind over matter. damn cliche's......

Spartan359
01-06-2005, 11:58
I know this sounds childish but I've found that by pinching my legs or just causing small general pain to myself helps. Or sitting awkward. I'd hate myself the next day because I would be covered it bruises but it worked.

Martin
01-06-2005, 14:20
I know this sounds childish but I've found that by pinching my legs or just causing small general pain to myself helps. Or sitting awkward. I'd hate myself the next day because I would be covered it bruises but it worked.

When in a tent on fire guard duty, we'd place a piece of wood vertically and one on top of it horizontally. Then you'd sit on it. Balancing asleep would not work, and if you did... :eek:

(I never fell asleep)

QRQ 30
01-06-2005, 15:13
Also in Billy Waughs book he says that he usually only got a few hours of sleep a night like 3-4 hours a night day in and day out without it effecting his quality of work.

I would say that is quite accurate. Psychologists studying the effects of sleep have shown that it isn't the amount but the quality. The most restful sleep (REM) only accurs for a brief period. Brief cat naps are more effective than a long sleep. I would guess that 3 or 4 hours was a good average while on an operation.

I used the cat nap system quite effectively while studying German at Monterey. I had a short 34-40 minute nap at lunch, a few hours after class before going to town to study the local night life, and a few hours upon return. It worked very well. In fact on regular marches/training exercises I learned to sleep 9 minutes out of a 10 minute break.

I don't recall any formal training.

oscar
01-09-2005, 17:08
been lurking for a while, i think this is my first post, anyway...

I remember reading somewhere that the effects of caffeine last for 6 hours. If you want to stay awake for 48 hours, you could do it by taking a dose of caffeine every 6 hours. However, i'd say after that 48 hour period, you'd better get some sleep. Also, there are some kind of stay alert/awake pills used by the AF, maybe somebody knows more about those...

:munchin

Ambush Master
01-09-2005, 17:14
been lurking for a while, i think this is my first post, anyway...

I remember reading somewhere that the effects of caffeine last for 6 hours. If you want to stay awake for 48 hours, you could do it by taking a dose of caffeine every 6 hours. However, i'd say after that 48 hour period, you'd better get some sleep. Also, there are some kind of stay alert/awake pills used by the AF, maybe somebody knows more about those...

:munchin

You've been wise just lurking !!

Now, go fill out your PROFILE like the Intro Stickies say !!!

Till then, stick to your lurking, BTW I can see you when in "Stealt Mode" !!! :munchin

Do take care.
Martin

oscar
01-18-2005, 16:23
kinda new to this high tech stuff, learning as i go along, will do on that sticky stuff

:lifter

Wannakuba
05-15-2005, 10:13
A quick fix that has pulled me through on a few ocassions was putting the coffee grounds from an MRE in my bottom lip or under my tongue. Or just use this (http://www.jokaroo.com/funnyvideos/wakeordie.html)

groundup
03-17-2006, 20:49
Ammonium Sulfate.

As has been said before in this thread, if you like what you are doing you can stay up for a long time. In early HS I spent some time playing a computer game called UO. I have stayed awake for 72 hours playing that game. I just didn't give my mind the chance to think about sleeping.

Last Summer a buddy told me the day before he was moving that I was going with him. I hadn't been getting good sleep and I had a messed up sleep schedule to begin with - waking up at 15/16/2000 hrs. I went and got a couple of caffeine drinks and Stackers on an empty stomach. What a mistake. I was driving an overloaded Uhaul - the biggest one they had - from NJ to GA shaking, getting very angry, and having crazy spells.

I like caffeine for short things, like getting started in the morning after a late night of partying. For long days, nothing works like liking what you are doing and keeping busy.

Warrior-Mentor
03-18-2006, 14:38
COuple tricks from Ranger school and the SFQC...

Pebble in the mouth...something about biologically, you're body doesn't want to choke, so it helps keep you awake.

Cope or other tobacco product. If dipping/chewing doesn't work, rub some cope in your eye...that will burn to wake you up.

"Dip" coffee. As suggested earlier, put MRE instand coffee in your mouth like it was dip.

Small stick under the chin (if pulling security prone).

Take a knee.

Stand up.

Stand up with Ruck on.

Plenty others, but those are the most common/first that came to mind.
JM

Chris
03-18-2006, 18:02
I'll try the 'pebble in the mouth' method next time I'm up late writing. New to me, makes sense enough.

booker
03-18-2006, 20:43
There was a major in our unit who told us he once used a method to stay awake that is fail-safe. He said to pinch your scrotum as hard as you could. Needless to say, I have never been that tired....

xfjon
04-24-2006, 22:45
I also have problems sleeping, I downloaded Ambient Music Therapy off of iTunes that puts me right to sleep. It helps to clear my mind so i can go to sleep.

Spartan359
04-24-2006, 23:45
I also have problems sleeping, I downloaded Ambient Music Therapy off of iTunes that puts me right to sleep. It helps to clear my mind so i can go to sleep.


Uh....we are talking about staying awake. But that stuff puts me to sleep as well. :D

Ben 'round
03-19-2007, 02:29
When the going gets rough and you have no copenhagen to spare you can always depend on your MRE (if you have one). The tabasco to the eyeballs does the trick. The coffee package also does well if emptied on the tongue. *Note: should have water if you use coffee.* If in a place where you can't move much try pinching the top eyelids a little bit. Good luck on your next 40 hour experiment. :eek:

mugwump
03-19-2007, 08:18
Necropost, but what the hey...

In the better living through chemistry category, Provigil (modafinil) is the heat. You are just...alert. Freaky. Not that scalp-tingling, scratchy-eyeball, fuzz-brained thing that usually happens when you try to work for 24 hours straight. (We sometimes wait and wait and wait for a piece of a project to come to us and then all of a sudden we're on the critical path and umpteen teams are waiting on our output. It's pretty rare that things get that critical, but it does happen.)

There are Air Force protocols on the 'net for it's use...hours 36-48 usually add carefully timed doses of caffeine as well and it's really important not to overdo the caffeine. Eli Lilly has a drug in the works that reputedly lets you go 72 hours while being alert.

Sionnach
03-19-2007, 09:56
Sunflower seeds used to do it for me on long overnight trips. You need a lot of water for that, as well, which adds to the effect.

I believe it works similarly to the pebble technique. You're brain doesn't want you to go to sleep with foreign objects in your mouth.

letinsh
03-21-2007, 11:14
+1 on the sunflower seeds. When I was still in school, I'd finish a week of finals, then hop in the car and drive from MI to CO straight. I found energy drinks would keep me awake physically, but not mentally.

The exercise of trying to orient the seed in my mouth so I could actually crack the shell kept my mind alert and focused.

Distorted
05-17-2007, 17:57
'Fatal Familial Insomnia', as referenced in the Peter Tripp link http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/coping_with_shiftwork/96742/2 , doesn't suggest that not sleeping can be fatal. The FFI wiki, among other sources suggests that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Familial_Insomnia the insomnia is an effect of plaque buildup in the brains of people with the rare genetic disorder, which eventually kills. But the insomnia itself isn't the cause of death. This guy here apparently didn't sleep for 30 years: http://www.thanhniennews.com/features/?catid=10&newsid=12673

As far as long periods without sleep go, the 'Rank 14' run in the online game 'World of Warcraft' required six weeks of sitting in front of a computer with ~4-6 hours of sleep per week (tuesday mornings). Most people managed to sneak in a few hours every now and then. I could write a good bit about the emotional effects on the people who completed it, and the distress of having done all that for 'pixels on a screen'. However, most of the negative effects seem to be more from 'what I was staying up that long to do' than 'I stayed up for that long'--with the exception of the immediate physical problems associated with not being able to leave the PC for more than 15-20 minutes at a stretch (diet/lack of exercise). My calorie intake was low, inconsistent, and not exactly 'health food', so I think I ended up losing ~7-10kg and a lot of muscle.

I heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep recently, but simply haven't had the time to test it. Everyone I know who has tried to do it has failed during the adjustment period, and the 'nap times' are apparently very rigid, so there aren't too many jobs out there which are conducive to that type of sleep schedule.

One summer in highschool, I had a 9-5 job with six hours of commuting, I ended up getting about 5 hours of sleep a night and two fifteen minute naps during the day--child labor laws in MD mandate 'breaks', and I had nothing else to do. This seemed to work perfectly for me--I woke up feeling better after those naps than I often do after 6-8 hours of sleep.

I have more trouble staying awake when there's nothing to do, and the suggestions in this thread will hopefully keep me from getting dropped from SFAS for falling asleep at an inappropriate time. I read in Mr. Couch's book about a few candidates who were booted for falling asleep at the end of nav exercises while waiting to be picked up. This might be a problem for me, as I tend to just fall asleep when I run out of stuff to do, so I'm listening intently!

Edit: Oops, sorry for necroposting

The Reaper
05-17-2007, 18:02
We generally do not rely upon Wikipedia as a reference here, unless we personally know that material to be correct.

Long shot for you getting to SFAS, I would not get too far ahead of myself.

TR

Distorted
05-17-2007, 20:18
The first wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Familial_Insomnia is just about as well-documented as wikis get. The 'external link' to http://www.afiff.org/index.php?newlang=english appears to be legitimate, it is an Italian foundation devoted to prion diseases. The 'References' section contains a 'Case Study' with references to journal articles, as well as a link to a peer-reviewed journal article and a cited, but not linked journal article. This article does not appear to be sufferring from the problems that are often associated with wikipedia.

In my opinion, the second wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep is a good introduction to a subject which is at best "fringe", and at worst, some combination of painful, dangerous, and stupid. It mostly links to blogs by people who claim to follow the schedule, and is low on real, well-researched, peer-reviewed science. It does suffer from the problems with accurracy common to wikipedia, but does not appear to suffer from vandalism, or deliberate distortion on the part of the writers.

To its' credit, because there is very little in the way of peer-reviewed research into the subject, it does contain the header "This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.", as well as links to both sides of the (amatuerish) debate. I also stated that I have no experience with it and offerred the article as a jumping off point for discussion. I guessed that if anyone would be interested in ways of reducing sleep requirements in the long term to roughly 3 hours a day, it would be the people here.

As stated, the rigidity of the schedule, the difficulty in acclimation, and issues with adequate tissue repair time probably keep this from being seen as anything more than a curiousity. I expect that drugs such as caffeine, modafinil, and various amphetamenes will remain the 'stay awake and alert' methods of choice for a long time to come.

I assert that these two wikipedia articles serve the intended purpose of all encyclopedia-type articles--sourced, informative, unbiased introductions for people with little to no familiarity with the subject matter.

Back to reading.

Edit: grammar

Team Sergeant
05-17-2007, 20:25
The first wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Familial_Insomnia is just about as well-documented as wikis get. The 'external link' to http://www.afiff.org/index.php?newlang=english appears to be legitimate, it is an Italian foundation devoted to prion diseases. The 'References' section contains a 'Case Study' with references to journal articles, as well as a link to a peer-reviewed journal article and a cited, but not linked journal article. This article does not appear to be sufferring from the problems that are often associated with wikipedia.

In my opinion, the second wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep is a good introduction to a subject which is at best "fringe", and at worst, some combination of painful, dangerous, and stupid. It mostly links to blogs by people who claim to follow the schedule, and is low on real, well-researched, peer-reviewed science. It does suffer from the problems with accurracy common to wikipedia, but does not appear to suffer from vandalism, or deliberate distortion on the part of the writers.

To its' credit, there is very little in the way of peer-reviewed research into the subject, and it does contain the header "This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.", as well as links to both sides of the (amatuerish) debate. I also stated that I have no experience with it and offerred the article as a jumping off point for discussion. I guessed that if anyone would be interested in ways of reducing sleep requirements in the long term to roughly 3 hours a day, it would be the people here.

As stated, the rigidity of the schedule, the difficulty in acclimation, and issues with adequate tissue repair time probably keep this from being seen as anything more than a curiousity. I expect that drugs such as caffeine, modafinil, and various amphetamenes will remain the 'stay awake and alert' methods of choice for a long time to come.

I assert that these two wikipedia articles serve the intended purpose of all encyclopedia-type articles--sourced, informative, unbiased introductions for people with little to no familiarity with the subject matter.

Back to reading.

So you're a doctor of medicine now?

The funny thing about wikipedia is that it now quotes itself.

I attempted to help wikipedia with the Special Forces page and they (civilians) NEVER answered.

wikipedia is not a credible source of information, period.

TS

The Reaper
05-17-2007, 22:44
It must be tough to be stuck in college, and already know everything.:rolleyes:

TR

Dub
05-18-2007, 07:34
As far as long periods without sleep go, the 'Rank 14' run in the online game 'World of Warcraft' required six weeks of sitting in front of a computer with ~4-6 hours of sleep per week (tuesday mornings). Most people managed to sneak in a few hours every now and then. I could write a good bit about the emotional effects on the people who completed it, and the distress of having done all that for 'pixels on a screen'. However, most of the negative effects seem to be more from 'what I was staying up that long to do' than 'I stayed up for that long'--with the exception of the immediate physical problems associated with not being able to leave the PC for more than 15-20 minutes at a stretch (diet/lack of exercise). My calorie intake was low, inconsistent, and not exactly 'health food', so I think I ended up losing ~7-10kg and a lot of muscle.





O God your one of the W.O.W. kids. :rolleyes:

x SF med
05-18-2007, 12:16
...As far as long periods without sleep go, the 'Rank 14' run in the online game 'World of Warcraft' required six weeks of sitting in front of a computer with ~4-6 hours of sleep per week (tuesday mornings). Most people managed to sneak in a few hours every now and then. I could write a good bit about the emotional effects on the people who completed it, and the distress of having done all that for 'pixels on a screen'. However, most of the negative effects seem to be more from 'what I was staying up that long to do' than 'I stayed up for that long'--with the exception of the immediate physical problems associated with not being able to leave the PC for more than 15-20 minutes at a stretch (diet/lack of exercise). My calorie intake was low, inconsistent, and not exactly 'health food', so I think I ended up losing ~7-10kg and a lot of muscle. ...

Just stick to your video games, ok? The men who have posted about sleep deprivation have done it in real world life or death situations, you did it for a video game. Got it?

swatsurgeon
05-21-2007, 20:15
distorted: training....training....training.....training....t raining
You train to a level of increased ability. This is what we do to remain sharp and be able to operate on the human body after being up and active for 40-50+ hours. My guess is that the QP's train the same when it comes to endurance and remaining sharp during the performance of their duties...just an educated guess.
No one just goes out and runs a marathon.......you train up to it. My longest stretch was 4 days 3 nights of non-stop operating, patient care and more operating. No medal for that , just good patient outcomes without complications. Smart, maybe or maybe not; necessary, yes. Sound familiar QP's??

distorted: Most of the 'crap' available about sleep deprivation is done by people never trained to perform at peak levels for prolonged periods of time, they just analyze data of those not in peak performance and who can and do kill people when they are tired.

ss (someone who has been there and done that)

BoyScout
05-21-2007, 21:25
Forgive me, slight hi-jack: Distorted try to play less WoW. It's overly addictive as far as gaming is concerned. I play it, heck in my alliance "Guild" it's called "World or Warcrack." I use it to talk to my step-sister and I play no more than 3 hours a day and that's when I don't have to work. 1-2 hours unless I use it to work woth my daughter.

Back to topic: +1 for sunflower seeds, atomic fireballs, sweet-hots, other hot candy and when I can get it, Ruoffza (spelling?) an Indian drink that gives a lot of energy for a breif period but the effects can last longer.

Gerbermk2
05-22-2007, 15:58
I stayed all night at the edge of a marijuana garden once, the fear of being discovered by the 2 mexican nationals tending it was enough to keep my eyes wide open all night... If I would have had to stay one more night I would have went down and asked them to brew me some coffee.

7624U
05-23-2007, 07:30
This might be a problem for me, as I tend to just fall asleep when I run out of stuff to do, so I'm listening intently!

Edit: Oops, sorry for necroposting


Do some pushup's and sign this red card :D

SOCOM8721
05-23-2007, 07:37
February, Fort Ord Combat Leaders Course (pre-ranger) torrential rain, 42 degrees in a tight perimeter. The R.I. got pissed as hell when we all started laughing cause someone starting snoring - roof raising snoring.

Some people can sleep in any conditions...

bluebb
05-25-2007, 13:12
Here is a link for a man that stayed awake for 11 days but still didn't brake the record


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=457403&in_page_id=1770

Blue

Elia
04-20-2008, 17:08
Hello all.
Back in 90ties when i was at IDF infantry officers course, we used to do some pushups for staying awake, but when it comes to graduation exam ( 48 hours of intense fysical exams, that maked me groggy filling, and at the very end two hours of class sitting exams...ROE, Procedures etc....nothing helped to stay awake and from time to time there was a boom - one of the graduates felt down just to meet the table with his face. I finished with my nose bleeding :D
Sorry for grammar, english is not my mother tongue.

The Reaper
04-20-2008, 17:48
Elia:

You need to follow instructions in your registration message to introduce yourself in the proper place before posting again.

TR

Elia
04-20-2008, 18:28
Elia:

You need to follow instructions in your registration message to introduce yourself in the proper place before posting again.

TR
Done.
My mystake sir.

Blitzzz (RIP)
04-25-2008, 11:54
For me on long drives etc. I has found that ruby red Grapefruit juice does the best.. I'm an old A.D.D guy and coffee only puts me to sleep.

I saw a movie once in which the lead cowboy was taking a really bad guy in and it took days so to stay awake one night he tied a ring of thorns around his neck, so that when his head bobbed he got stuck. Ah yes it was Bert Lancaster, but don't remember the movie. Blitz

Red Flag 1
04-25-2008, 13:38
Blitzzz,

Red grapefruit and tangerine worked for me.