View Full Version : Should Airports Use "Smart Screening"?
Warrior-Mentor
12-29-2009, 20:25
VIDEO:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/1604/should-airports-use-smart-screening
Hell yes we should be using these scanners. The scanner can detect drugs, bombs and bundles of money. The scanners require little raining and can be set to record which operator was on duty when passenger xyz went through. No ethnic profiling, just scan every single passenger and stop all the other stupid (useless) crap that TSA makes us do. Start with international flights then transition to domestic fights. The more of these things that are used the cheaper they will become. If the price drops enough they can be used in prisons, jails and courthouses.
armymom1228
12-29-2009, 22:12
Hell yes we should be using these scanners. The scanner can detect drugs, bombs and bundles of money. The scanners require little raining and can be set to record which operator was on duty when passenger xyz went through. No ethnic profiling, just scan every single passenger and stop all the other stupid (useless) crap that TSA makes us do. Start with international flights then transition to domestic fights. The more of these things that are used the cheaper they will become. If the price drops enough they can be used in prisons, jails and courthouses.
I don't know about you, but I have a Constutionally garunteed right to privacy. I don't intend on giving it up. This smacks of pervasive fear. As long as we live in fear, they have won. If you think that TSA will be not saving stuff, you are naive.
I might as well just strip on the sidewalk and then enter the terminal.
Tell me just whom is going to pay for all this ultra expensive equipment?
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.
Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
AM
frostfire
12-29-2009, 22:25
What they should be using is dogs.
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.
Let's see. The latest t-wannabe hid the goodies in his underwear. Where exactly, I really don't want to know, but I can see it now: "Alright Sir/Ma'am, spread it and let the dog sniff the "area" :D
GratefulCitizen
12-29-2009, 22:45
What they should be using is dogs.
That would be hilarious.
Dogs are unclean to muslims.
...maybe we should start to train bomb-sniffing pigs! :D
As someone that use to work for the TSA I believe comedian Lewis Black summed up airport security best with this stand up act.
http://www.last.fm/music/Lewis+Black/_/Airport+Security?autostart
Profiling! First, last, and always! The Sky Caps, the ticket agents, TSA, other passengers, the gate agent, the FAs, and my favorite, have the cockpit crew walk through the cabin and look everyone in the eye.
If they know that EVERYONE is watching, the less committed will get hinky.
Then again, what the hell do I know? I thought that they'd drop this bone.
"Nappie, you're doing a heck of a job!" :rolleyes:
We have enemy inside the wire!
I'd like to say "Rant, over!" but I can't.
PSM
p.s.: GWB got reamed for reading "The Pet Goat" (not "My Pet Goat") for 7 minutes to kids. What was B-HO doing with HIS pet goat for three days?
armymom1228
12-29-2009, 23:36
Let's see. The latest t-wannabe hid the goodies in his underwear. Where exactly, I really don't want to know, but I can see it now: "Alright Sir/Ma'am, spread it and let the dog sniff the "area" :D
CNN was showing the offending garment all day yesterday.
Since I am going to soon be handing over my undies to the nice TSA guy, I guess I need to go visit Vicky's Secret and get something less granny panty eh?:p
AM
FirstClass
12-29-2009, 23:36
Pretty soon terrorists will not need to conceal their bombs because it would be profiling, there for unconstitutional to inspect someone who is holding what "appears" to be a bomb.
Frankly, we have a long road ahead of us, seeing that two people with opposite views cannot sit across from each other and discuss their differences and listen to each others points, even with a moderator between them. You see that alot in politics, our country is run by children, children with bombs and endless bounds of money.
They are comfortable with how things are, when people get comfortable, especially the people in charge, it takes ALLOT to get them to do anything.
I think profiling will happen. But not for another two years or so when attacks become more frequent by the same type of people, or perhaps a change in presidency.
We all like the idea of bomb sniffing dogs, but the logistics of having that many trained dogs as well as dog handlers would prove problematical. As far as a constitutional right to privacy at airports, I cant find it in the constitution, nor has it been specifically recognized by the courts.
The TSA or US Customs (ICE) can arbitrarily pull people out of line and do a detailed search of their persons, laptops, cell phones and carry on items without a warrant if they fit an incredibility vague profile. The scanning machine is much less intrusive them this.
I understand all the sensitivities with a scanner, as someone who has both shrapnel and retained metal hardware in my body I certainly understand these scanners will bring me extra scrutiny, but they can search a lot of people quickly and effectively with very little training.
As far as the TSA retaining the scanned images, I want them to retain these images for 72 hours so we can go back after a bombing and fire whatever incompetent TSA dork missed the next shoe/underwear bomber. Also how is this information any more prone to abuse then DMV photos, passport information, credit card information or medical files?
Don't get me wrong I'm all for profiling, dogs and armed pilots, but we lack the political will to do these things, and we will lack the popular will to do these sort of things until we have a series of mass murders in the skys.
Dozer523
12-30-2009, 08:45
During the Second World War you couldn't get on a passenger plane without a priority designation. Since there were few passenger planes only those vetted and with a reason to fly, flew.
Same thing with the trains. You wanted to travel? You went to the government office and got a priority to use.
You wanted to drive? You were screened when you got your gas ration.
Anyone want to get in line for that kind of government involvement?
Scanners won't work. Neither will dogs.
LINK (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/28/eveningnews/main5347847.shtml)
Al Qaeda Bombers Learn from Drug Smugglers
New Technique of Storing Bomb Materials Inside Body Cavity Nearly Kills a Saudi Prince
(CBS) Al Qaeda has developed a new tactic that allows suicide bombers to breach even the tightest security, as CBS News correspondent Sheila MacVicar reports.
Inside a Saudi palace, the scene was the bloody aftermath of an al Qaeda attack in August aimed at killing Prince Mohammed Bin Nayef, head of Saudi Arabia's counter terrorism operations.
To get his bomb into this room, Abdullah Asieri, one of Saudi Arabia's most wanted men, avoided detection by two sets of airport security including metal detectors and palace security. He spent 30 hours in the close company of the prince's own secret service agents - all without anyone suspecting a thing.
How did he do it?
Taking a trick from the narcotics trade - which has long smuggled drugs in body cavities - Asieri had a pound of high explosives, plus a detonator inserted in his rectum.
This was a meticulously planned operation with al Qaeda once again producing something new: this time, the Trojan bomber.
The blast left the prince lightly wounded - a failure as an assassination, but as an exercise in defeating security, it was perfect.
The bomber persuaded the prince he wanted to leave al Qaeda, setting a trap.
Al Qaeda has an animated movie showing the meeting between the bomber and the prince. Asieri says more senior al Qaeda figures want to surrender and convinces the prince to talk to them on a cell phone.
In the conversation recorded by al Qaeda, you hear a beep in the middle of two identical phrases that are repeated by the bomber and his handler.
Explosives experts tell CBS News that beep was likely a text message activating the bomb concealed inside Asieri.
The Trojan bomber hands the phone to Prince Mohammed. He's standing next to him, and 14 seconds later, he detonates.
"This is the nightmare scenario," said Chris Yates, an aviation security consultant.
On a plane at altitude, the effects of such a bomb could be catastrophic. And there is no current security system that could stop it.
"Absolutely nothing other than to require people to strip naked at the airport," said Yates.
And al Qaeda says it will share its new technique via the Internet very soon. There is nothing that can stop that either.
For a well executed security system, you need look no farther than El-Al Israeli Airlines for international flights. You are individually taken, alone, into an interview room, where the interviewer (who has complete knowledge of your name, address, your ticket, your seatmates, how and where the ticket was purchased, luggage checked or otherwise, your passport, etc.) asks you a series of questions.
While looking you square in the eye.
That's smart screening.
I remember being questioned once by a beautiful agent who, if she had wanted to do a full body search of me would have met with no objection whatsoever (but certainly a request for equal time) and during the questioning she asked me:
"Has anyone given you anything to carry on the airplane? A package? A parcel, perhaps?"
And I said "Of course not."
And she smiled warmly and said: "You mean 'of course not' that you wouldn't take such a parcel, not 'of course not' for my asking."
Went through several body searches returning to München from the Med in the mid-70s - you'd go into an enclosed cubicle where one BGS guy would go through your stuff and watch as you stripped to your underwear and another BGS guy armed with an MP5 stood to the side watching you. Terrorists/airline hijackers came in all nationality types - European, Asian, Middle Eastern, and African.
You'd go to the München Flughafen back then and there were also several manned BGS armored vehicles on duty around the perimeter.
Inconvenient - sure - but that was the way it was back then.
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
That would be hilarious.
Dogs are unclean to muslims.
...maybe we should start to train bomb-sniffing pigs! :D
Israel's 'bomb squad pigs'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3159010.stm (Looks like an Israeli dog trainer is trying this?)
That's actually an excellent point, and a way to profile discreetly. Of course, unbelievers are unclean as well. But it would add another useful layer. Another way would be to place images that a Muslim who interprets the Koran literally would take offense to. Then have that area monitored and stop those who exhibit a strong reaction but do not complain...is that profiling? Not sure about the law on that.
No need to be invasive.
Warrior-Mentor
12-30-2009, 14:43
I don't know about you, but I have a Constutionally garunteed right to privacy. I don't intend on giving it up. This smacks of pervasive fear. As long as we live in fear, they have won. If you think that TSA will be not saving stuff, you are naive.
I might as well just strip on the sidewalk and then enter the terminal.
Tell me just whom is going to pay for all this ultra expensive equipment?
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.
Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
AM
Do you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly?
Don't want to play?
Trains, cars and boats. Help yourself. ;)
Israel's cracked this nut. Find success, imitate.
For a well executed security system, you need look no farther than El-Al Israeli Airlines for international flights. You are individually taken, alone, into an interview room, where the interviewer (who has complete knowledge of your name, address, your ticket, your seatmates, how and where the ticket was purchased, luggage checked or otherwise, your passport, etc.) asks you a series of questions.
While looking you square in the eye.
That's smart screening.
I remember being questioned once by a beautiful agent who, if she had wanted to do a full body search of me would have met with no objection whatsoever (but certainly a request for equal time) and during the questioning she asked me:
"Has anyone given you anything to carry on the airplane? A package? A parcel, perhaps?"
And I said "Of course not."
And she smiled warmly and said: "You mean 'of course not' that you wouldn't take such a parcel, not 'of course not' for my asking."
We are not Isreal! It's a lot easier for them. Compare the number of Airports and daily flights to the U.S. They cover the amount of flights equal to one of our major Airports. We have one or more Airports and numbers of flights to Israel in everyone of our States.
I don't know about you, but I have a Constutionally garunteed right to privacy. I don't intend on giving it up. This smacks of pervasive fear. As long as we live in fear, they have won. If you think that TSA will be not saving stuff, you are naive.
I might as well just strip on the sidewalk and then enter the terminal.
Tell me just whom is going to pay for all this ultra expensive equipment?
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.
Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
AM
Embrace the Suck...WE ARE AT WAR.
Was listening to an NPR report while running some errands - the NL say they will begin full body scans for all passengers leaving Schiopol on American flag carriers in about 3 weeks - Schiopol currently has 15 full body scan machines but they are 'voluntary' use if the passenger 'wants' it done pending EU legal approval.
What a Charlie Foxtrot of a situation that is. :eek:
And so it goes...:(
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
14029 :eek:
Inceptor
12-30-2009, 16:10
Sirs,
It seems that most concerns about these scanners spawn from a fear of being exposed to a stranger.
The following is a link to the new scanner manufacturer's website, specifically the page on the "Privacy Image" feature.
http://www.as-e.com/products_solutions/smartcheck_privacy.asp
That aside, there are still many drawbacks to the system, least of which is the cost.
It has already been pointed out that the instrument is only as good as the person running it. Unfortunately the qualifications and requirements for becoming a TSA employee -- as well as the pay rates, hours, upward mobility, and job conditions -- are not exactly drawing the Type-A bulldogs that we need in those positions.
A large scale, real-time FTIR instrument would provide better idiot-proofing by flagging a chemical match rather than requiring the operator to use visual cues.
Another possibility would be some sort of weak EMP system capable of disabling electronic detonation devices.
Then again, we could just wrap each passenger in a spectra bag, so that their outburst is contained.
Respectfully submitted,
A.W.
Embrace the Suck...WE ARE AT WAR.
I guess I would find it easier to embrace that view if I knew exactly whom we are at war with, how we will know when we have achieved victory or suffered defeat, and, for that matter, what the war entails.
So far as I can tell, the war as directed by the POTUS and Congress is not against Islam, nor Iraq, nor Afghanistan, nor even Iran. There are some ever-changing umbrella organizations such as Al Qaeda that are often mentioned, and there are the Taliban...except we want to ally with the moderate Taliban...only they don't want to be our allies? :confused:
And Pakistan is our ally. Except a lot of its people seem to hate us, and appear to at least sympathize with the Taliban and Al Qaeda, but we're sending them aid...and the government is our friend, except it tells us not to do certain things, but that's OK because they don't really mean it... :confused:
And Iraq and Afghanistan are getting ready to stand on their own, but there are reports that suggest the contrary...and then there's Yemen...except the latest terrorist came from Nigeria... :confused:
I sense a classic castle defense - we have a castle (actually, many castles), and we're trying to craft a perfect defense of each and every one of them. The other side can and will probe endlessly. This sounds like a strategy that cannot win.
Please forgive me for being rather dense. If an all-out no-holds-barred war is what's needed, along with rationing, travel documents, and so forth, then let's define the war and win it. If we don't really want to win, then I don't understand why we have to make life ever-more unpleasant for ourselves.
No doubt there are important things I don't understand. But in all my reading, here and elsewhere, the war remains ambiguous to me. My apologies for any offense given.
All joking aside it would not be the first time people used pigs to sniff out things. I remember a program where they talked about people in the UK using pigs to sniff out truffles. I cant remember all the details but that it was done. Give people the choice. The pig or the body scan.
Yeah, I wasn't joking at all. Pigs have an excellent sense of smell and are very intelligent(maybe even too intelligent for this). And pigs and dogs could be used as just another subliminal factor (subliminal to the terrorists) in deciding whether or not a full search is justified.
armymom1228
12-30-2009, 17:20
All joking aside it would not be the first time people used pigs to sniff out things. I remember a program where they talked about people in the UK using pigs to sniff out truffles. I cant remember all the details but that it was done. Give people the choice. The pig or the body scan.
Here piggy piggy! I never did have a problem with a dog sticking its nose in my crotch. It is just doing what dogs do...pigs, well...,mmmm, what DO pigs do?:D
Out of curiousity why are shepards used mostly? I remember reading somewhere that bloodhounds have better smellers. Then again, they drool. Sorta like some of my recent dates.
Seems to me that pretty much everything seems unclean to Muslims. Its a wonder they can survive in this infidel ridden world. :D
AM
How long will these images be stored?
Where will they be stored?
What's going to happen when they get posted on the internet, and you just know they will. :rolleyes:
Underage kids will go through that scan, what about the kiddie porn laws?
Lots to ponder. At what point is the line drawn between personal safety and personal liberties? And yes, I know we're at war.
greenberetTFS
12-30-2009, 18:20
14029
I'm coming out of retirement to do my duty and volunteer as a Smart Screening screener.......... :cool: We all need to do our bit.......... ;) It's not the ideal job but someone has to do it. ...........:)
Big Teddy :munchin
I'm coming out of retirement to do my duty and volunteer as a Smart Screening screener...
Teddy,
I'm not sure that (1) your wife would allow it and (2) you heart could take it. :p
Now me, on the other hand...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
craigepo
12-30-2009, 19:16
"granny panty"
Armymom, I was wanting to have a serious conversation, but now I can't get granny panties out of my mind. Big ones, like small parachutes.
"Scanners won't work. Neither will dogs."
I would have to respectfully disagree with the notion that dogs wouldn't work in this situation. We used military dogs some in Kosovo, and they worked well. Additionally, a friend of mine works bloodhounds for the missouri department of corrections---I have heard some amazing stories about these dogs. Also, I just get back from working my bird dogs, two german shorthaired pointers. Like many hunting breeds, these dogs have been bred to improve many qualities, including their sense of smell, for centuries. On a good day, these dogs can find where a quail was hours ago, track it down, point it, and not move until I get there.(a couple of weeks ago they pointed and fought a skunk, but that story will have to wait).
In Missouri, the highway patrol used to set up drug interdiction checkpoints on the interstates. They would walk drug dogs by the stopped vehicles. The dogs' noses were sensitive enough to detect drugs by walking close to the vehicles. As to whether those dogs' noses are sensitive enough to detect explosives in a terrorist's rectum, I will let somebody else determine. :D
We used military dogs some in Kosovo, and they worked well.
I have heard it said that one should always respect the views of those who have real-world experience in an area. Thank you for your insights.
dr. mabuse
12-30-2009, 19:40
Someone on this forum that has experience with flying in and out of Israel update me please.
El Al seems to have a pretty good record.
Specifically, how do they manage it and is it scalable?:munchin
Someone on this forum that has experience with flying in and out of Israel update me please.
Why? Are you taking notes for the TSA or something? :munchin
Seeing as you asked, this article sums it up pretty well:
While North America's airports groan under the weight of another sea-change in security protocols, one word keeps popping out of the mouths of experts: Israelification.
That is, how can we make our airports more like Israel's, which deal with far greater terror threat with far less inconvenience.
"It is mindboggling for us Israelis to look at what happens in North America, because we went through this 50 years ago," said Rafi Sela, the president of AR Challenges, a global transportation security consultancy. He's worked with the RCMP, the U.S. Navy Seals and airports around the world.
"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport."
That, in a nutshell is "Israelification" - a system that protects life and limb without annoying you to death.
Despite facing dozens of potential threats each day, the security set-up at Israel's largest hub, Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport, has not been breached since 2002, when a passenger mistakenly carried a handgun onto a flight. How do they manage that?
"The first thing you do is to look at who is coming into your airport," said Sela.
The first layer of actual security that greets travellers at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion International Airport is a roadside check. All drivers are stopped and asked two questions: How are you? Where are you coming from?
"Two benign questions. The questions aren't important. The way people act when they answer them is," Sela said.
Officers are looking for nervousness or other signs of "distress" — behavioural profiling. Sela rejects the argument that profiling is discriminatory.
"The word 'profiling' is a political invention by people who don't want to do security," he said. "To us, it doesn't matter if he's black, white, young or old. It's just his behaviour. So what kind of privacy am I really stepping on when I'm doing this?"
Once you've parked your car or gotten off your bus, you pass through the second and third security perimeters.
Armed guards outside the terminal are trained to observe passengers as they move toward the doors, again looking for odd behaviour. At Ben Gurion's half-dozen entrances, another layer of security are watching. At this point, some travellers will be randomly taken aside, and their person and their luggage run through a magnometer.
"This is to see that you don't have heavy metals on you or something that looks suspicious," said Sela.
You are now in the terminal. As you approach your airline check-in desk, a trained interviewer takes your passport and ticket. They ask a series of questions: Who packed your luggage? Has it left your side?
"The whole time, they are looking into your eyes — which is very embarrassing. But this is one of the ways they figure out if you are suspicious or not. It takes 20, 25 seconds," said Sela.
Lines are staggered. People are not allowed to bunch up into inviting targets for a bomber who has gotten this far.
At the check-in desk, your luggage is scanned immediately in a purpose-built area. Sela plays devil's advocate — what if you have escaped the attention of the first four layers of security, and now try to pass a bag with a bomb in it?
"I once put this question to Jacques Duchesneau (the former head of the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority): say there is a bag with play-doh in it and two pens stuck in the play-doh. That is 'Bombs 101' to a screener. I asked Ducheneau, 'What would you do?' And he said, 'Evacuate the terminal.' And I said, 'Oh. My. God.'
"Take Pearson. Do you know how many people are in the terminal at all times? Many thousands. Let's say I'm (doing an evacuation) without panic — which will never happen. But let's say this is the case. How long will it take? Nobody thought about it. I said, 'Two days.'"
A screener at Ben-Gurion has a pair of better options.
First, the screening area is surrounded by contoured, blast-proof glass that can contain the detonation of up to 100 kilos of plastic explosive. Only the few dozen people within the screening area need be removed, and only to a point a few metres away.
Second, all the screening areas contain 'bomb boxes'. If a screener spots a suspect bag, he/she is trained to pick it up and place it in the box, which is blast proof. A bomb squad arrives shortly and wheels the box away for further investigation.
"This is a very small simple example of how we can simply stop a problem that would cripple one of your airports," Sela said.
Five security layers down: you now finally arrive at the only one which Ben-Gurion Airport shares with Pearson — the body and hand-luggage check.
"But here it is done completely, absolutely 180 degrees differently than it is done in North America," Sela said.
"First, it's fast — there's almost no line. That's because they're not looking for liquids, they're not looking at your shoes. They're not looking for everything they look for in North America. They just look at you," said Sela. "Even today with the heightened security in North America, they will check your items to death. But they will never look at you, at how you behave. They will never look into your eyes ... and that's how you figure out the bad guys from the good guys."
That's the process — six layers, four hard, two soft. The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge in a maximum of 25 minutes.
This doesn't begin to cover the off-site security net that failed so spectacularly in targeting would-be Flight 253 bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab — intelligence. In Israel, Sela said, a coordinated intelligence gathering operation produces a constantly evolving series of threat analyses and vulnerability studies.
"There is absolutely no intelligence and threat analysis done in Canada or the United States," Sela said. "Absolutely none."
But even without the intelligence, Sela maintains, Abdulmutallab would not have gotten past Ben Gurion Airport's behavioural profilers.
So. Eight years after 9/11, why are we still so reactive, so un-Israelified?
Working hard to dampen his outrage, Sela first blames our leaders, and then ourselves.
"We have a saying in Hebrew that it's much easier to look for a lost key under the light, than to look for the key where you actually lost it, because it's dark over there. That's exactly how (North American airport security officials) act," Sela said. "You can easily do what we do. You don't have to replace anything. You have to add just a little bit — technology, training. But you have to completely change the way you go about doing airport security. And that is something that the bureaucrats have a problem with. They are very well enclosed in their own concept."
And rather than fear, he suggests that outrage would be a far more powerful spur to provoking that change.
"Do you know why Israelis are so calm? We have brutal terror attacks on our civilians and still, life in Israel is pretty good. The reason is that people trust their defence forces, their police, their response teams and the security agencies. They know they're doing a good job. You can't say the same thing about Americans and Canadians. They don't trust anybody," Sela said. "But they say, 'So far, so good'. Then if something happens, all hell breaks loose and you've spent eight hours in an airport. Which is ridiculous. Not justifiable
"But, what can you do? Americans and Canadians are nice people and they will do anything because they were told to do so and because they don't know any different."
Sourced from: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother
Dozer523
01-01-2010, 10:03
Here piggy piggy! I never did have a problem with a dog sticking its nose in my crotch. Who remember the little foo foo lap rats that got paraded through the barracks after payday? Nothing quite like a miniature poodle named "Killer" going ape-shit, doin' cartwheels and pissing herself in front of a wall locker!
armymom1228
01-01-2010, 10:09
Who remember the little foo foo lap rats that got paraded through the barracks after payday? Nothing quite like a miniature poodle named "Killer" going ape-shit, doin' cartwheels and pissing herself in front of a wall locker!
HEY! cheap thrills are, well....cheap! :D:D
Dozer523
01-01-2010, 11:49
HEY! cheap thrills are, well....cheap! :D:D
Not if it was your wall locker . . .
TOMAHAWK9521
01-01-2010, 12:52
My late wife and her German Shepherd worked on the Larimer County SAR dog team. I was stunned how sharp all the dogs' sense of smell were. If the animals are properly trained, there isn't much that they won't detect. As for shepherds or Belgian Malenwas/Malinuais (screw the spelling) the other Belgian breed being used as sniffers, I would think they provide a great intimidation factor. It's not like the dog will attack the person as soon as they detect something but the offender doesn't know that. No one likes having a large, aggressive dog like that behaving like it's going to bite you.
greenberetTFS
01-01-2010, 14:23
Teddy,
I'm not sure that (1) your wife would allow it and (2) you heart could take it.
Now me, on the other hand...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Just broke the news to Maggie regarding your comment and she LHAO......;)
Big Teddy :munchin
We are not Isreal! It's a lot easier for them. Compare the number of Airports and daily flights to the U.S. They cover the amount of flights equal to one of our major Airports. We have one or more Airports and numbers of flights to Israel in everyone of our States.
Kgoerz,
You're right....even though their system is far more effective, the problem would be the cost. I don't believe the US can afford to pay the higher wages (and for the training) for the vast number of security agents that would be required.
Maybe it's worth closely examining how they operate, extract the parts that are scalable, and build it into a new system?
By the way, don't just focus on Ben Gurion / Tel Aviv airport; the Israelis screen passengers getting onto their flights at every airport worldwide that their airlines fly to / from. So from a logistical point of view, they have screening people at every check-in for El Al in the US, UK, Europe, Africa and Asia. Where they cannot screen people their way, they do not fly. It's an impressive system.
G
I vote for large 350# razor back hogs walking around airports at TSA.
or better yet,...
Dogs have 20 minutes of effective "sniffing" before they need a rest.
Too much focus is spent on looking for objects and not for the terrorists. Remember, guns don't kill people, people do.
Israeli methods are indeed scalable. From a recent trip CONUS, i can tell you that flying out of Ben Gurion is far safer, far smoother and far quicker.
H
Sneaky Pete
01-05-2010, 09:40
I don't know about you, but I have a Constutionally garunteed right to privacy. I don't intend on giving it up. This smacks of pervasive fear. As long as we live in fear, they have won. If you think that TSA will be not saving stuff, you are naive.
I might as well just strip on the sidewalk and then enter the terminal.
Tell me just whom is going to pay for all this ultra expensive equipment?
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.
Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
AM
Do you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly?
Don't want to play?
Trains, cars and boats. Help yourself. ;)
Israel's cracked this nut. Find success, imitate.
The right to privacy is suggested in several amendments to our constitution but despite common belief it is not specifically enumerated.
You could say that you have the:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." (Amendment IV)
Given the circumstances, being sniffed by a dog, or being subjected to an invasive scan seems worth the convenience of lower risk air travel.
I don't believe the US can afford to pay the higher wages (and for the training) for the vast number of security agents that would be required.
Perhaps part of this is the low-priced ticket model that seems to be in place within the U.S. I cannot help but wonder how the cost of the Israeli model would compare with the current U.S. approach.
If we combined excellent (albeit expensive) security along with a few amenities to make the travel experience more pleasant, we might find that travelers were delighted to make the switch.
FWIW - the Israeli model came into existance when it became evident that the Israeli's could trust nobody to look our for their safety/self-interests and their government made the decision to protect their interests no matter the cost. To that end, El Al does the following:
Their aircraft have specific modifications
Their agents (world-wide) and crews are Israeli
Their aircraft are only serviced by Israelis
Their security personnel (world-wide) are entirely Israeli
Their citizens and equipment all have military obligations
Expensive - but - a must from their point-of-view.
שלום לכל המבקשים אותו
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
FWIW - the Israeli model came into existance when it became evident that the Israeli's could trust nobody to look our for their safety/self-interests and their government made the decision to protect their interests no matter the cost. To that end, El Al does the following:
Their aircraft have specific modifications
Their agents (world-wide) and crews are Israeli
Their aircraft are only serviced by Israelis
Their security personnel (world-wide) are entirely Israeli
Their citizens and equipment all have military obligations
Expensive - but - a must from their point-of-view.
שלום לכל המבקשים אותו
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
There will be computerized semi-auto security profiling procedures at Ben Gurion airport soon....will be interesting to see.
H
armymom1228
01-05-2010, 12:13
Given the circumstances, being sniffed by a dog, or being subjected to an invasive scan seems worth the convenience of lower risk air travel.
Is the risk lower? Or are we just deluding ourselves?
armymom1228
01-05-2010, 12:22
FWIW - the Israeli model came into existance when it became evident that the Israeli's could trust nobody to look our for their safety/self-interests and their government made the decision to protect their interests no matter the cost. To that end, El Al does the following:
Their aircraft have specific modifications
Their agents (world-wide) and crews are Israeli
Their aircraft are only serviced by Israelis
Their security personnel (world-wide) are entirely Israeli
Their citizens and equipment all have military obligations
Expensive - but - a must from their point-of-view.
שלום לכל המבקשים אותו
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
CNN had a vid short on exactly the profiling and procedues to fly out of Israel.
The several levels of security one must get through to fly. It is efficient, to the point, and works. They do profile and they like to talk directly to you, focus on you. Not your shoes, liquids or undies. I like that model and think it should be implemented here in the States. Quite obviously our model involves heavily on reaction rather than proaction. It also is not working, time to look at what does work.
I would, however, like to see a cost comparison analysis of the Israeli vs US current methods of airport security. I bet the Israeli method, over time, is cheaper.
AM
Slantwire
01-05-2010, 13:20
Perhaps part of this is the low-priced ticket model that seems to be in place within the U.S. I cannot help but wonder how the cost of the Israeli model would compare with the current U.S. approach.
If we combined excellent (albeit expensive) security along with a few amenities to make the travel experience more pleasant, we might find that travelers were delighted to make the switch.
Given the cost of the deploying the new scanning equipment du jour nationwide every time someone makes an attempt, I wonder if the Israeli approach is, in fact, more expensive.
greenberetTFS
01-05-2010, 13:51
CNN had a vid short on exactly the profiling and procedues to fly out of Israel.
The several levels of security one must get through to fly. It is efficient, to the point, and works. They do profile and they like to talk directly to you, focus on you. Not your shoes, liquids or undies. I like that model and think it should be implemented here in the States. Quite obviously our model involves heavily on reaction rather than proaction. It also is not working, time to look at what does work.
I would, however, like to see a cost comparison analysis of the Israeli vs US current methods of airport security. I bet the Israeli method, over time, is cheaper.
AM
I have to agree with AM,In the long run,I'd bet the Israeli way is better.............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Based upon my experiences with the TSA, the term 'smart screening' sounds like an update of that most famous of misnomers - 'military intelligence.' :rolleyes:
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
Sneaky Pete
01-06-2010, 11:30
Is the risk lower? Or are we just deluding ourselves?
I am not in a position to know with any certainty that millimeter-wave screening devices would improve security. I was just pointing out that we do not in fact have a specific right to privacy that would be violated by their use.
One can argue that the scans amount to an unreasonable search; but as others have mentioned we don't have a constitutional right to fly. When I fly now, I am compelled to agree to a search of my belongings that I would not submit to in a routine traffic stop with no probable cause. Constitutional rights are not in jeopardy on this issue.
Again I think we are all in favor of effectively minimizing the jihadist opportunity to perpetrate violence via air travel.
Again I think we are all in favor of effectively minimizing the jihadist opportunity to perpetrate violence via air travel.
If I may quibble a bit...
Do we want to minimize it, or do we want some (supposedly) optimal balance of cost, inconvenience, and risk, or do we want something else?
To minimize the risk is simple enough. Drug the passengers into an unconscious state. Stack the naked bodies in racks. Fly them to a destination. Unload them. Let them dress when they awaken. Clearly, that won't fly (pun intended).
We could use a proved, effective system - as done by El Al. But we don't because of cost.
Perhaps our real problem is that we haven't defined what we want very well, so we aren't generating concise answers. Instead, we're going after gardeners who have jars of honey.
We could use a proved, effective system - as done by El Al. But we don't because of cost.
I'm not sure of the validity of your reasoning here - (1) the complexity and logistics of the issue for us goes beyond mere cost and (2) the appearance of effectiveness by El Al at this point may be due entirely to the perceived level of difficulty and target value in attacking it vs the many less secure carriers.
I would imagine all that would change if the security measures were or were perceived as being equal.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I'm not sure of the validity of your reasoning here
You make some good points. Still, I have the impression that maximization of security is not really the sole objective. Perhaps it is not even the highest priority. And I cannot help wondering about the efficacy of a system that panics when a gardener attempts to bring some honey on board. Or when a person walks around the security line, thus shutting down an entire airport.
I recall what flying used to be like. One purchased a ticket, got on the airplane, and had a comfortable ride. The airline personnel were nice. The snacks and in-flight meals were, frankly, pretty good. Then came deregulation, and with it cheap tickets. On the one hand, flying became inexpensive and widely available - but there was a price to be paid. The flying experience became steadily worse. The present situation seems to be a culmination of a bad trend.
As matters stand, the passengers get to be electronically strip searched, patted down, inspected, searched, taken aside for special screening, questioned, and so on and so forth into the night. People pay for this? And it gets worse. In other conversations on this forum, it appears that people with TS clearances, people who have literally been personally responsible for the security of our country, are treated to the same indignities. The elderly wheel-chair bound wives of such people have, likewise, been the target of such ill-treatment. The existing security system seems profoundly dysfunctional. Of course, my perceptions may be flawed. It wouldn't be the first time.
I don't claim to know the answer. I'm sure many here have a deeper understanding of security than do I. But it seems to me that there is likely to be a better solution than the current approach. MOO, YMMV.
ChickenMcFuggit
01-06-2010, 14:40
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/01/05/california.airport.shutdown/index.html
:munchin
So when is viewing children considered safty and when is it considered porn?
So your 14 year old curvey daughter steps through the new body screening area and the beer belly donut eating TSA guard smiles and nods? "Ah, Miss, could you back up a minute. Now turn around slowly."
And so it goes...:rolleyes:
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
FWIW - the Israeli model came into existance when it became evident that the Israeli's could trust nobody to look our for their safety/self-interests and their government made the decision to protect their interests no matter the cost. To that end, El Al does the following:
Their aircraft have specific modifications
Their agents (world-wide) and crews are Israeli
Their aircraft are only serviced by Israelis
Their security personnel (world-wide) are entirely Israeli
Their citizens and equipment all have military obligations
Expensive - but - a must from their point-of-view.
שלום לכל המבקשים אותו
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
A few reasons why no one else is trusted:
Attack on El Al Check-In, Vienna Airport 27 December 1985 - Even though the airport was full of police and a CT team, not one round was fired by Austrian Police etc. Israeli ground security grabbed magazines from stunned Austrian Police Officers for their Browning P35's when they ran short of ammo. I recall seeing news footage of an Austrian cop recounting how he lay on his police dog "to protect it" :D
Attack on El Al Check-In, Rome Airport 27 December 1985 - Italian Airport Police open fire indiscriminately with smg's in response to the attack and cause many casualties.
Attack on El Al Check-In, LAX 4 July 2002 - Not one round fired by LAPD / LAX Police - El Al air marshall works his way through the crowd heading to the sound of shooting; neutralises attacker. :munchin
Take Care
G
Unforeseen consequences of 'smart screening'...apparently it's not only the small hat sizes which are a problem with TSA screeners. :rolleyes:
For Airport Security, Size Matters
Cops: New high-tech screener triggered fight over manhood insult
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0506101tsa1.html
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin