View Full Version : Muhammed the Pedophile
Warrior-Mentor
12-23-2009, 19:20
3 minutes to learn about the example of the "perfect man",
which ALL Muslim men are required to strive to emulate...
VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OZ3s0BcSxs
version13
12-23-2009, 23:30
I've noticed that this tends to be the first thing that Western Christian culture jumps to to critique Islam and try to discredit its prophet.
In Islam's defense, the cultural ages of marriage and consensual sex are very similar to other prophets found in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament.
Jewish and many other cultures today still use arranged or promised marriages from early ages, yet are not criticized as heavily as this instance as a much more common cultural norm 1400 years ago.
Even stretching to today and literature that is commonplace in schools, Juliet of Shakespeare's work was only 13.
While I too find this to be disturbing I have to agree with version13 that this is just my cultural background speaking. Not so far back (about 100 years) in my own family tree were 20-30 something year old men marrying women that were barely 15 and that's what was the norm for America.
In all honesty I think the gentleman's statement at 0:48 has a lot of merit. He's basically stating that society (the father) should have the common sense to know when his children are mature versus the state setting an arbitrary date of 16, 18, 21, etc. This again is my personal feelings. I believe that more should be expected of people and less from their government. Let the ethics professors and clergy argue morality, and have the legislature enact real laws only. Let a father decide if his son can be mature enough to drink alcohol at 18 or whatever age and maintain his wits. The less I have a government telling me how to live my life the better. The old phrase, "my right to swing my arm stops at the beginning of another man's nose," is very telling of what I think about this. If what I do doesn't harm my neighbor then my neighbor (and my government) should leave me alone.
I've noticed that this tends to be the first thing that Western Christian culture jumps to to critique Islam and try to discredit its prophet.
In Islam's defense, the cultural ages of marriage and consensual sex are very similar to other prophets found in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament.
Not really, although Jewish culture allowed young girls to be married at an early age; ancient Israelite marriage customs required the wife to be taken usually at the "outset of puberty" or around the age of 13.
"she won her case in court before she matured [at the age of twelve years and six months], lo, they belong to the father." Mishnah Ketubot, 4:1
Islam allows female children to be married and engaged in sex prior to their first menses - prior to adulthood...
Puberty derives from the Latin word "pubertas", which means "adult"
FirstClass
12-24-2009, 04:41
I've noticed that this tends to be the first thing that Western Christian culture jumps to to critique Islam and try to discredit its prophet.
In Islam's defense, the cultural ages of marriage and consensual sex are very similar to other prophets found in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament.
Jewish and many other cultures today still use arranged or promised marriages from early ages, yet are not criticized as heavily as this instance as a much more common cultural norm 1400 years ago.
Even stretching to today and literature that is commonplace in schools, Juliet of Shakespeare's work was only 13.
R...Really? In Islam's defense? You don't see anything wrong with a fully grown man having sex with a 9 year old girl? Pre-pubescent even? I do not recall (Though I am not a scholar) any instances as such in the bible. perhaps another more learned man will place more sorces than I.
Warrior-Mentor
12-24-2009, 05:11
I've noticed that this tends to be the first thing that Western Christian culture jumps to to critique Islam and try to discredit its prophet.
In Islam's defense, the cultural ages of marriage and consensual sex are very similar to other prophets found in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament.
Jewish and many other cultures today still use arranged or promised marriages from early ages, yet are not criticized as heavily as this instance as a much more common cultural norm 1400 years ago.
Even stretching to today and literature that is commonplace in schools, Juliet of Shakespeare's work was only 13.
Are you actually defending pedophilia?
Other religions have changed with time. By law (sharia), Islam hasn't and can't.
Do the words "Dina D’Malchuta Dina" mean anything to you?
Literally translated this means the law of the land is the law.
http://koltorah.org/halachah/dina-d%E2%80%99malchuta-dina
It's one of the reasons Jews are able to integrate into other societies so successfully.
And how old was Romeo? And when did they have sex? Or did I miss that part?
Even stretching to today and literature that is commonplace in schools, Juliet of Shakespeare's work was only 13.
Romeo and Juliet is a work of fiction, (Tragedy), but still a story of two who explored and found, whatever. But in their defense, they were the same age, not the polorization of age with innocence.
I find the image un-godly and un-worthy of good report.
Wow - we seem to be forgetting the issue of buggery and little boys so rampant with Muslims. Want to try to explain that away?
...In Islam's defense, the cultural ages of marriage and consensual sex are very similar to other prophets found in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament...........
So version version13 - you see nothing wrong with the story in this thread
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26778
Because it's a curtural thing?
I guess to you Ft Hood was OK because it's just a cultural thing.
Wow - we seem to be forgetting the issue of buggery and little boys so rampant with Muslims. Want to try to explain that away?
I’ll give it a shot…LOL :D
Sharia Law teaches that homosexuality is punishable by death, nevertheless, this doesn’t apply to little boys :eek: Apparently implied references to homosexual behavior in paradise has always been a part of Islamic culture, as alluded to in the Qur‘an - as long as the “boy,” like "natural eunuchs," lack the "defining skill of males" :eek:
The distinction between pederasty (sex with boys) and sodomy (penetration of "males") was commonly, albeit not universally maintained throughout the ancient world, and indeed survived throughout most of the history of Islam until at least the nineteenth century (in spite of the futile objections of some medieval scholars). Apparently, boy-love was considered okay by many people because, like "natural eunuchs," underage boys also lacked the "defining skill of males" (sexual potency with women). The Qur'an itself gives support to pederasts in its glimpses of paradise:
52:17-29 And they shall have boys [ghilmaan] circulating among them as if they were hidden pearls.
56:22-23 and dark-eyed ones [hoorun 'eenun], the like of hidden pearls
76:19 And immortal boys [wildaanun mukhalladoona] will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls.
2:25 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in [the gardens] …
4:57 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in them …
...
These historical facts conform to the highly erotic Koranic description of the paradisaic boys, who are ever-young, pretty like pearls, dressed in silk and brocades, and wear bracelets. Above all, like Ganymede they serve wine in cups of crystal.
http://www.well.com/~aquarius/Qurannotes.htm
The above could explain this ruling from Ahmadinejad’s Imam, Ayatollah Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi:
"Can an interrogator rape the prisoner in order to obtain a confession?" was the follow-up question posed to the Islamic cleric.
Mesbah-Yazdi answered: "The necessary precaution is for the interrogator to perform a ritual washing first and say prayers while raping the prisoner. If the prisoner is female, it is permissible to rape through the vagina or anus. It is better not to have a witness present. If it is a male prisoner, then it's*acceptable for someone else to watch while the rape is committed."
:"Is the rape of men and young boys considered sodomy?"
Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi: "No, because it is not consensual. Of course, if the prisoner is aroused and enjoys the rape, then caution must be taken not to repeat the rape."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133214
version13
12-24-2009, 10:31
Are you actually defending pedophilia?
Other religions have changed with time. By law (sharia), Islam hasn't and can't.
Do the words "Dina D’Malchuta Dina" mean anything to you?
Literally translated this means the law of the land is the law.
http://koltorah.org/halachah/dina-d%E2%80%99malchuta-dina
It's one of the reasons Jews are able to integrate into other societies so successfully.
Dina D'Malchuta Dina is being used in this case. The law of the land in the US regarding marriages is in the US followed for religious Muslims living in the US. Those living in Yemen or other underdeveloped countries have different laws and are therefore living under the law of their land.
Furthermore, these cases we are bringing up are newsworthy for a reason. While they still occur, they are not the norm and often occur in "backwater" regions of countries already underdeveloped countries.
version13
12-24-2009, 10:42
Because it's a curtural thing?
I guess to you Ft Hood was OK because it's just a cultural thing.
I don't believe the actions of a crazy man justify one's actions based in culture or elsewhere.
In a similar vein, is what Timothy McVeigh did excusable on the same grounds?
Murder, terrorism, bombings, et. al. are not excusable and to compare them is ridiculous.
Surgicalcric
12-24-2009, 11:33
I don't believe the actions of a crazy man justify one's actions based in culture or elsewhere.
He wasnt crazy, he was an Islamic terrorist...
...
In a similar vein, is what Timothy McVeigh did excusable on the same grounds?
Murder, terrorism, bombings, et. al. are not excusable and to compare them is ridiculous.
The difference is that we, as Christians and a Nation, condemned the acts of McVeigh. It is not our culture to kill the innocent.
Can the same be said of the Muslim Street and Ft Hood?
Version13--
Stud, you're lacking serious SA on these boards. Did you ever consider that most of the SF guys on here who have more than one deployment have seen what a disgusting immoral religion Islam is in first person. You need to quit being an apologist. These are not isolated, backwoods incidents and I know that I can attest, as can most of my fellow brothers on here that these occurrences are more common that what your books say.
Warrior-Mentor
12-24-2009, 12:22
I don't believe the actions of a crazy man justify one's actions based in culture or elsewhere.
In a similar vein, is what Timothy McVeigh did excusable on the same grounds?
Murder, terrorism, bombings, et. al. are not excusable and to compare them is ridiculous.
He wasn't crazy - just a "devout Muslim."
Have you taken the time to read the slides he briefed?
They align perfectly with islamic law.
No one endorsed what McVeigh did. In fact, it was condemned. Show me a "religious" justification. Show me a religion that endorsed him.
You need to do some serious home work.
Start by reading the "Al Qaeda Reader."
Once you figure out why Bin Laden and Zawahiri have different talking points for the USA and the west -vs- the Muslim World, then let's talk....
Claemore
12-24-2009, 13:06
Show me one religion, other than islam, in which the "prophet" marries a 7 yr old girl. And yes, you can compare terrorism to rape- especially when considering the young age of the victims. Rape is part and parcel to terrorism. Rape is a form of terrorism, and is used as such in many cultures, especially islamic.
version13
12-24-2009, 20:04
Version13--
You need to quit being an apologist.
This tends to be my biggest problem. I get the worst of it from my Jewish friends (being Jewish kind of puts me in a pickle, too).
The Islam and Arab culture that I have experienced was in a much different situation than the soldier. Mine was academic and civilian and has given me certain bias on the subject. I would like to see how a change in perspective will change or alter my views on the subject.
Surgicalcric
12-24-2009, 22:23
...(being Jewish kind of puts me in a pickle, too)...
Really, how so? Dont blame your heritage for this issue; that isnt it. I am Jewish as well -and there are a few more here- and I have absolutely no problem at all seeing situations such as the above are to blame on Islam and the culture associated with it. This isnt an isolated incident...
...The Islam and Arab culture that I have experienced was in a much different situation than the soldier. Mine was academic and civilian and has given me certain bias on the subject...
Soldier or not, evil is evil.
...I would like to see how a change in perspective will change or alter my views on the subject...
You need to do some reading here about Islam and take to heart the opinions of those who have seen what Islam is up close -and have done/are doing the job you seem to want to do...
Crip
Warrior-Mentor
12-25-2009, 10:21
This tends to be my biggest problem. I get the worst of it from my Jewish friends (being Jewish kind of puts me in a pickle, too).
The Islam and Arab culture that I have experienced was in a much different situation than the soldier. Mine was academic and civilian and has given me certain bias on the subject. I would like to see how a change in perspective will change or alter my views on the subject.
In that classroom, did you ever stop to read Islamic Law?
Most colleges use this as a text book:
http://www.amazon.com/Approaching-Quran-Michael-Anthony-Sells/dp/1883991269
Why?
Because all the peaceful stuff happens early in in chronological order of the Koran - when Muhammed had the smallest following and had to be less aggressive.
Did you know that almost all of the peaceful verses have been abrogated by the later revelations?
Of course not. Why share the ugly side when the academics are attempting to train you like a dog to bark "islam is a religion of peace."
Let there be no doubt, by shariah law, they are required to advance the cause of islam - which is world domination.
This includes converting or killing all Jews and Christians. [Dhimitude and the jizya are abrogated in the islamic end of days].
Given that both friends [us here and others] and foes [just read Bin Laden, Zawahiri, etal] alike are saying the same thing:
Do you think this might be something at least worth a cursory investigation?
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
Get it. Read it.
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Traveller-Classic-Islamic-Al-Salik/dp/0915957728
Washington didn't take a break on Christmas and neither will I.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Warrior-Mentor
12-25-2009, 10:31
December 24, 2009
Yemen still wedded to child marriages
Heather Murdock
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
SAN'A, Yemen | Thirteen-year-old Sally al-Sabahi stood outside the courthouse earlier this month fiddling with her smudged, half-polished nails. She was hoping to get a divorce, but her husband did not show up.
When Sally was 11, her father married her to 23-year-old Nabil al-Mushahi, a cousin. Since the wedding, she has run away from her husband's home three times.
"I was afraid of him since the first day," she said in her parents' tiny, windowless, stone home after the failed court date. "I don't want to get married again until after I am dead."
Sally said she wants a divorce because her husband beat, berated and regularly attempted to rape her. When asked whether he succeeded in the sexual assaults, her long eyelashes lowered toward the floor against her black veil, and she picked at the faded orange and green sheet she was sitting on. She did not answer.
Arranged marriages for girls as young as 9 are common in many parts of Yemen. About half the women in the country are married before they are 18, according to Ahmed al-Quareshi, the head of the Seyaj Organization for the Protection of Children.
The Yemeni parliament has been debating for almost a year a law that would make 17 the minimum age for marriage, but the measure is fiercely contested and has been blocked by hard-line religious leaders.
"It's a part of their social structure," Mr. al-Quareshi said. "It's a tradition to allow marriage at an early age."
Early marriages are especially common in the countryside, where more than 70 percent of Yemen's 22 million people live, said Shada Nasser, a lawyer and children's rights advocate. Rural mothers, often illiterate and former child brides themselves, don't consider bucking the system, she said.
The young brides, robbed of childhood and education, grow up afraid of their husbands and resenting their children.
"They had dreams," Ms. Nasser said, "But early marriage broke those dreams."
As Yemen - the poorest country in the Arab world - seems to grow poorer every year, the child-bride population is growing fast, according to Ms. Nasser. Parents look for husbands for their little girls so they will have fewer mouths to feed.
Money paid by husbands to their brides' families is also an important source of income. Almost half of Yemenis live on less than $2 a day, according to the United Nations.
Before marriage, many future husbands promise the girls' families that they will not have sex with their brides until the girls are mature, which is generally considered to be about 15 years old. About 10 percent to 20 percent of the new husbands break that promise, according to Ms. Nasser.
It is not just poor families that marry their daughters before puberty, according to Naseem ur-Rehman, a spokesman for the U.N. children's agency, UNICEF. "It cuts across social and economic variations," he said.
Sometimes, he said, children are married to strengthen tribal relationships.
The early marriages often have dire consequences.
Women who give birth before they are 18 are almost eight times as likely to die in labor than those who give birth in their 20s, Mr. ur-Rehman said. In some parts of Yemen, women are about 60 times more likely to die in childbirth than in the United States.
Fawziya Youssef was 12 when she died in early September, according to Mr. al-Quareshi. Fawziya and her husband, 26, had been married for only a year.
Fawziya died of severe bleeding while delivering a stillborn baby after three days of painful labor. Her parents, however, do not think she died because she was married too young, said Mr. al-Quareshi. In their village in the Hoedeida governorate, it is the custom to marry girls before they are 13.
Fawziya's parents are heartbroken, but have no recourse.
"There are no laws saying that this is a crime," Mr. al-Quareshi said.
In February, a bill that would set a minimum marriage age was put to a vote in parliament. It passed 17 to 13, according to Fouad Dahabahi, a legislator. But before the president could sign it, it was blocked. A prominent sheik and several other Muslim religious leaders had objected, saying it contradicted Islamic law, which allows girls to be married at age 9.
Although most members of parliament disagreed with the sheik privately, according to Mr. Dahabahi they were worried about appearing un-Islamic. They sent the bill to be re-examined by committees on health, the constitution, Islamic law and human rights.
Mr. Dahabahi said he supported the bill because when he was 19, he was married to a 13-year-old girl named Intisar.
Soon after they were married, she became pregnant. She got very sick, and her frail health and misery haunted the family for years. "She was a child when she was a mother," he said.
The bill, he said, is also delayed because parliament members prefer not to argue publicly about such a controversial issue. And, as in many bodies in the Yemeni government, parliament has trouble getting things done because it is in session only five months a year.
Other lawmakers said they oppose the law because setting a specific age for marriage is an unnecessary bow to Western culture.
"Why do we have follow [Western] traditions?" asked parliament member Mohammad al-Hamzi. "God created the girl, and knows when she is ready."
Mr. al-Hamzi said that girls who marry before puberty should not, and normally do not, have sex with their husbands. But, he added, "If something bad happens to her, she has the right to go to the judge and ask for a divorce, like Nujood."
Last year, 10-year-old Nujood Ali went to court alone to seek freedom from an abusive husband. She sued for divorce against her father's will. She won because a sympathetic judge believed that her husband had raped her.
Nujood's case made news around the world and inspired parliament to consider a minimum legal age for marriage. But when she tried to register for school, Nujood was initially refused because she had been exposed to sex. The teacher said she could taint the other children, according to Ms. Nasser, who also represented Nujood.
When Nujood heard about Sally's bid for freedom, she pledged to give her $500 out of royalties from a biography being published about her. That is half the money Sally will need to repay her husband if she is granted a divorce.
Even though the judge believed that Nujood had been raped, she still had to give her ex-husband $200.
To get a divorce, Sally must produce written proof and a witness to the abuse.
A few weeks ago, during an Islamic holiday, Mr. al-Mushahi came to Sally's family home. The roof of the house is a blue plastic tarp, and household water is lugged inside in dirty yellow jerrycans. Sally said she wanted to stay with her family. Her parents begged her to go back to her husband.
For three days, Sally refused to eat, and threatened to kill herself. Her parents relented, and told Mr. al-Mushahi it was over.
"As I told you before, I tried to convince her, but she doesn't want you anymore," Sally's father, Mubkhoot Ahmed, barked into his cell phone at his son-in-law after he failed to appear in court.
Mr. Ahmed blamed himself for marrying off his daughter too young and for believing that Mr. al-Mushahi would not touch her before she was ready.
Sally said that when she was 11, she knew nothing about marriage, but agreed to the match because she would be lavished with gifts for the first time in her life. Her father supports his wife and five children by selling ground chili powder in the market. Sometimes he makes $2.50 a day. Sometimes he makes nothing.
"I was thinking only about jewelry and clothes," said Sally, slapping her hands together.
Her father said he was afraid that Mr. al-Mushahi would be embarrassed that Sally abandoned him, and try to take his daughter by force.
In a country with little government control outside the capital, he said he is prepared to protect his family the old-fashioned way.
"I have only weapons to protect myself," he said.
SOURCE:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/dec/24/yemen-still-wedded-to-child-marriages/
testedone
12-25-2009, 11:45
Get it. Read it.
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Traveller-Classic-Islamic-Al-Salik/dp/0915957728
Washington didn't take a break on Christmas and neither will I.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Thanks just bought it!
version13
12-25-2009, 13:50
In that classroom, did you ever stop to read Islamic Law?
Most colleges use this as a text book:
http://www.amazon.com/Approaching-Quran-Michael-Anthony-Sells/dp/1883991269
Why?
Because all the peaceful stuff happens early in in chronological order of the Koran - when Muhammed had the smallest following and had to be less aggressive.
Did you know that almost all of the peaceful verses have been abrogated by the later revelations?
Have not had a chance to read this book, I'll take a look at it.
On the order of the Koran and using the chronological order, not the order it is written in, the earlier parts were the revelations to Moses, Jesus and the like. There already existed oral tradition of these stories talking about the battles, wars, etc. so there wasn't a need to discuss this as much in the Koran as much as the "newer" revelations.
With that said, it still is a very interesting point brought up. I'd like to look more into it.
Of course not. Why share the ugly side when the academics are attempting to train you like a dog to bark "islam is a religion of peace."
Granted some of my education on Islam was in a classroom, but the majority of it came from living with and studying from Muslims in country.
With that, I never did say that Islam was the religion of peace, just that generalizations can't be made for the religion as a whole. Not all Buddhists are all about peace and non-violence, the Samurai would beg to differ.
Let there be no doubt, by shariah law, they are required to advance the cause of islam - which is world domination.
Not arguing this point. The word Islam means submission and comes from the root letters s l m, which at it's most basic meaning is peace. In something as basic as the language, peace would come from submission.
This includes converting or killing all Jews and Christians. [Dhimitude and the jizya are abrogated in the islamic end of days].
Jews and Christians are protected largely under Ahl al-Kitab or People of the Book. When I was living overseas, I was generally afforded this. Even when staying with Jewish people in rural areas in very poor countries, there was no qualms with their immediate neighbors, in fact they were friends. We sat and smoked shisha together, etc.
I use Jews here as the control because historically it has always been better for Jews living under Muslim rule than it was under any other. This, of course, has changed in the last 60 years.
The raids, bombings, etc. that have gone on in countries like Yemen against Jews from the Houthi rebels have been more about political influence from Iran because of their financial support.
Given that both friends [us here and others] and foes [just read Bin Laden, Zawahiri, etal] alike are saying the same thing:
I wouldn't consider Bin Laden a Muslim any more than I would consider Heaven's Gate a branch of Christianity. Centers of Islamic study like al-Ahzar University in Cairo have the same feelings.
Do you think this might be something at least worth a cursory investigation?
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
Get it. Read it.
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Traveller-Classic-Islamic-Al-Salik/dp/0915957728
Washington didn't take a break on Christmas and neither will I.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Looks like I have more to do this season.
Thanks and Merry Christmas.
Warrior-Mentor
12-25-2009, 15:02
Have not had a chance to read this book, I'll take a look at it.
It's a long read. Easy reference. There are plenty of references to various paragraphs from it cited in the various thread here.
On the order of the Koran and using the chronological order, not the order it is written in, the earlier parts were the revelations to Moses, Jesus and the like. There already existed oral tradition of these stories talking about the battles, wars, etc. so there wasn't a need to discuss this as much in the Koran as much as the "newer" revelations.
Have you read the Koran in Chronological order?
Granted some of my education on Islam was in a classroom, but the majority of it came from living with and studying from Muslims in country.
Did you know, by sharia law, there are things MUSLIMS are REQUIRED to know?
Did you know that there are things that NON-MUSLIMS are ALLOWED to know?
Anything you learned about islam from a Muslim is strictly what you are allowed to know.
Does the word taqqiya mean anything to you?
With that, I never did say that Islam was the religion of peace, just that generalizations can't be made for the religion as a whole. Not all Buddhists are all about peace and non-violence, the Samurai would beg to differ.
This is wrong. Analyzing religious doctrine, and specifically the religious LAW, you can make quantifiable assessments about a religion, it's goals and intentions. Not only is it possible, it's a MUST for us to do this in order to understand the threat, and make no mistake, islam, as a totalitarian, supremacist, racist ideology is a threat.
Not arguing this point. The word Islam means submission and comes from the root letters s l m, which at it's most basic meaning is peace. In something as basic as the language, peace would come from submission.
Sure. It's a religion of peace - after everyone has been killed or converted. The mere islamic binary world view of dar al islam and dar al harb - illustrates this point.
Jews and Christians are protected largely under Ahl al-Kitab or People of the Book. When I was living overseas, I was generally afforded this. Even when staying with Jewish people in rural areas in very poor countries, there was no qualms with their immediate neighbors, in fact they were friends. We sat and smoked shisha together, etc.
Does the "Sword Verse" mean anything to you? Surah 9:5. Look at what it says and examine where it fits into the CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER of the Koran.
It abrogates/superscedes/replaces just about every other Sura - certainly ALL the "more peaceful verses" that precede it.
By Jalaludin - Surah 9 is the 113th chronological surah out of 114 surahs.
By Rev. J.M. Rodwell - Surah 9 is the 113th chronological surah out of 114 surahs.
By Sir W. Muir - Surah 9 is the THE LAST surah.
I use Jews here as the control because historically it has always been better for Jews living under Muslim rule than it was under any other. This, of course, has changed in the last 60 years.
And it's not going to get any better with time.
The raids, bombings, etc. that have gone on in countries like Yemen against Jews from the Houthi rebels have been more about political influence from Iran because of their financial support.
Believe that if you like.
I wouldn't consider Bin Laden a Muslim any more than I would consider Heaven's Gate a branch of Christianity. Centers of Islamic study like al-Ahzar University in Cairo have the same feelings.
It doesn't matter what YOU consider Bin Laden. What you think is irrelevant.
It matters what the Muslim world considers him - specifically those who would follow him in word and deed.
And you're fooling yourself if you think he's out of line with al-Azhar.
Where was Zawahiri trained? Where was his great uncle chief imam?
Looks like I have more to do this season.
Thanks and Merry Christmas.
I'm hitting you with a fire hose. Your job is to drink.
Basenshukai
12-25-2009, 15:22
I don't believe the actions of a crazy man justify one's actions based in culture or elsewhere.
In a similar vein, is what Timothy McVeigh did excusable on the same grounds?
Murder, terrorism, bombings, et. al. are not excusable and to compare them is ridiculous.
How do you know he was crazy? Where did you get your information? This was a terrorist act with premeditation. If crazy is just killing masses of people for reasons we don't condone, then we have been fighting a war against crazy people and not terrorists. Plainly, you are absolutely wrong about Major Hassan. Unfortunately, we will get a Congressional investigation on how the President's party was crashed before we get one about how numbers of US Soldiers were killed in their own base by an infiltrator.
testedone
12-25-2009, 23:37
Unfortunately, we will get a Congressional investigation on how the President's party was crashed before we get one about how numbers of US Soldiers were killed in their own base by an infiltrator.
Ain't that the truth!
Warrior-Mentor
12-26-2009, 09:20
This tends to be my biggest problem. I get the worst of it from my Jewish friends (being Jewish kind of puts me in a pickle, too).
The Islam and Arab culture that I have experienced was in a much different situation than the soldier. Mine was academic and civilian and has given me certain bias on the subject. I would like to see how a change in perspective will change or alter my views on the subject.
I don't understand the pickle.
Islam, a supremacist, totalitarian, racist ideology demands that you convert to islam or be killed.
What's the pickle?
Robert Spencer is Jewish. Pamela Geller is Jewish. Norm Podhoretz is Jewish. This list goes on.
They get it.
Don't use Judaism as an excuse not to understand that they want you to get on the train.
I'm using this repugnant metaphor as a wake up call. Hopefully you'll hear the alarm and not hit snooze.
If you're comfortable in the academic environment, pick up your reading here:
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=304579&posted=1#post304579
Warrior-mentor is spot on!! Don't forget some of the products of Steve Coughlin and Bidgette Gabriel's Books. These savages are truly winning the IO war - We need to WTFU.
I don't understand the pickle.
Perhaps the pickle is cognitive dissonance - or holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time.
We have some facts - Warrior-Mentor has presented them in a clear and easily understood series of posts. (Posts that have taught me a lot. Thank you!).
We also have a family of thoughts broadcast by our economic, social, and political elites. We can see them on television, read them in news and literature, and so forth. My perception is that the message from that quarter is that Islam is the religion of peace, that there are no deep differences in viewpoint, and that we must not be judgmental.
Let us consider the recent attempt to blow up an airplane ( LINK (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581191,00.html) ).
The alleged father of a Nigerian man charged with trying to blow up a Northwest Airlines plane on Christmas Day reportedly warned the U.S. about his son's fanatical religious views and activities, the New York Post reported.
Alhaji Umaru Mutallab, believed to be the suspected terrorist's father, told a Nigerian news outlet that six months ago he alerted the U.S. Embassy to his son's fanatical religious views, the Post reported.
He allegedly told Nigerian newspaper This Day that he had informed both the U.S. Embassy and the Nigerian security services of his 23-year-old son Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab's activities, the Post reported.
(SNIP)
The younger Abdulmutallab is accused of setting off a device aboard a Northwest flight upon landing in Detroit, which resulted in a fire and what appears to have been an explosion.
The "alleged" father? The "suspected terrorist"? The father "allegedly told"? The terrorist "accused"?
While posing questions about the dubious ancestry of the terrorist has amusing aspects, I find it difficult to understand why the media cannot make statements of fact.
Likewise, they state that the terrorist is accused of setting off a device. How many witnesses does it take to say "He set off the device"?
Also - notice the "fanatical religious views" statement. This is, perhaps, the kernel of the problem. Substitute "Islamic", and note the change:
The alleged father of a Nigerian man charged with trying to blow up a Northwest Airlines plane on Christmas Day reportedly warned the U.S. about his son's Islamic views and activities, the New York Post reported.
The "fanatical" term keeps people blind to the problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OZ3s0BcSxs
The Middle East Media Research Institute, or MEMRI for short, is a Middle Eastern press monitoring organization founded by former Israeli intelligence officers. Its headquarters is located in Washington, DC. Critics have accused MEMRI of selectivity stating that it consistently picks for translation and dissemination the most extreme views from Arabic and Persian media, which portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, while ignoring moderate views that are often found in the same media outlets.
Selective Memri: Brian Whitaker investigates whether the 'independent' media institute that translates the Arabic newspapers is quite what it seems.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker
Richard
.... Critics have accused MEMRI of selectivity stating that it consistently picks for translation and dissemination the most extreme views from Arabic and Persian media, which portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, while ignoring moderate views that are often found in the same media outlets.............
And your point Richard?
Are you saying that the radicals didn't really say that because the source only translates the bad stuff?
Who are the critics? CAIR, maybe?
And your point Richard?
My points remain:
Sources are important when considering context
Scholars and theologians disagree on many of the so-called 'facts' being cited by all sides in this issue
The isssue is not as 'simple' as many either choose or would like us to believe
We are not as in touch with the dynamically diverse nature and 'pulse' of Islamic culture as some believe or we'd like to believe
History has shown itself to be much more complex and much less predictable concerning such matters
Nothing is certain as far as our global futures are concerned
However - YMMV - and so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Richard's $.02 :munchin
FirstClass
12-27-2009, 23:04
"The younger Abdulmutallab is accused of setting off a device aboard a Northwest flight upon landing in Detroit, which resulted in a fire and what appears to have been an explosion.
He was reportedly subdued and restrained by the passengers and flight crew. The airplane landed shortly thereafter, and he was taken into custody by Customs and Border Patrol officers."
Im just happy to see that ordinary civilians are taking action to protect themselves and others. I was kind of surprised to read this, but so very relieved, and very very proud. Look out islam, America is starting to lift weights again!:lifter
My points remain:
Sources are important when considering context
So then try and read what they write to each other about us, instead of what they tell you.
Just to place it all in context.
So then try and read what they write to each other about us, instead of what they tell you. Just to place it all in context.
Exactly my point - who, what, when, where, how, and why.
Q: In today's world - how do we feel if a 12-14 yo girl marries a 90 yo man?
Richard
Q: In today's world - how do we feel if a 12-14 yo girl marries a 90 yo man?
In Saudi, it seems to be accepted practice:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,543060,00.html
As well as in Gaza:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a4b_1249043706
When children are allowed to be used for sex then that is sexual exploitation.
Regarding sex with prepubescent children, Abu-Ala’ Maududi states:
"Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible." (Maududi, volume 5, p. 620, note 13)
When children are allowed to be used for sex then that is sexual exploitation.
Concur - this is sexual exploitation.
A conservative estimate of the average age of recruitment into prostitution in the USA is 13-14 years ...
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/fempsy1.html
However, and although distasteful from my personal point-of-view, there is a difference between such sexually exploitative behavior and the many societal practices found around the world allowing the sanctioning of marriages of youth to adults for a number of reasons - reasons which are not necessarily related to 'sexual exploitation'.
So, would the marriage of a 90 yo man to a 12-14 yo girl - as sanctioned by the mores of the society in which they live - make the man a pedophile? :confused:
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
So, would the marriage of a 90 yo man to a 12-14 yo girl - as sanctioned by the mores of the society in which they live - make the man a pedophile?
Would the cold-blooded slaughter of another human being, sanctioned by the doctrine of his religion and society in which it is practiced, make the child a murderer?
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26765
Stop the atrocities – stop selling young Indian girls to old oil rich Arabs
Sudhir Chadda
Sep. 3, 2005
Still in Hyderabad, old Arabs flock to buy young Indian girls. The price is cheap for these old oil rich Arabs buying tens of young Indian girls for their sexual pleasures.
According to media sources, "Arab Shiekh marries poor Indian girl", "Arab marries, and then ditches teenage Hyderabadi girl", "Arab Sheikhs marry young Indian girls and flee", "Parents marry off daughter to Arab for money" - The headlines aren''t from decades old newspapers. But, before you start putting stress on your grey cells to find out in which era such inhuman acts happened, let's make clear that this is a ''harsh present day reality''.
Yes, in today's era also Arab Shiekhs marry poor Indian girls paying a paltry sum, live with them for a short while, and then, go back to their countries, abandoning the girls. And, in Hyderabad, also known as the City of Nawabs, the practice has become very common, with marriage becoming a trade and woman a commodity.
The auspicious ceremony now has a customer, a broker and a seller. The Arab Sheikhs come to India and fix up with a broker, who in turn finds a girl, fixes her price with her father, and finally after tying the knot lives with her for a few days and goes back to his country. The tragedy is that few parents have learnt the lesson.
In a recent case that came to light, an impoverished Muslim family married off their daughter to an Arab Sheikh for a meagre amount of Rs. 5000, offered through a broker.
"He gave Rs. 5000, but it was all taken by the broker. My mother didn''t get anything. I married him wilfully, even though he was 50 years old," said a girl. Her dreams are all shattered as she has been abandoned by him.
Earlier, Arabs used to take their brides back with them, but that stopped when the Gulf nations restricted their citizens from bringing home a foreign bride unless they took prior permission from the authorities. As a result, instances of Arabs flocking to Hyderabad for a young bride continue.
Social activists, however, say that the socio-economic conditions of the Muslim community of Hyderabad, are forcing poor parents to marry off their daughters to unknown Sheikhs.
While bachelors of the city demand dowry from the girl's parents, adding to their plight, Arabs offer them money in return. This leaves parents with little option.
"In our country young men don''t marry poor girls, as their parents can''t offer them dowry. So a girl's father finds it really difficult to find a suitable match for his daughter - a match who won''t demand dowry," said Nadir Almasdoosi, a social activist.
The Qazis, who perform the marriages, said that they are not responsible for such marriages, because both parties give their consent on the ''Nikahnama'' before the ''Nikah''.
"When both the parties are ready, they inform the Qazi, and the Qazi is not responsible for anything after the Nikah." said Chief Qazi, Shariyath Panah.
In that case the Qazi could say, "Jab Miyan biwi razi, to kya karega Qazi".
But the main problem arises, when the Arabs, some of whom already have one or more wives, flee and the girls are left helpless, and their parents burdened further.
But despite all this, poor families continue to get their daughters married to rich Arabs.
Source (http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:nZOxt96Qu-oJ:www.indiadaily.com/editorial/4489.asp+Girls+sold+to+arab+sheikhs+in+hyderabad&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in)
Would the marriage of a 90 yo man to a 12-14 yo girl - as sanctioned by the mores of the society in which they live - make the man a pedophile?
Any answer to the question posited?
Richard
Warrior-Mentor
12-28-2009, 10:32
"A fish cannot see the water in which it swims."
greenberetTFS
12-28-2009, 10:57
Would the marriage of a 90 yo man to a 12-14 yo girl - as sanctioned by the mores of the society in which they live - make the man a pedophile?
Any answer to the question posited?
Richard
YES,he's a pedophile...............:(:(:(
Big Teddy :munchin
I think I begin to see the problem the West faces in dealing with Islam. The present discussion is suggestive of greater issues.
It seems reasonably clear that the Moslems involved believe that they are doing the right or appropriate thing. From the perspective of their religion and their community, their premise is valid. The predominant view in other areas is not in agreement, but they simply do not care. Since they deeply believe they are correct, it does not matter what anyone else says.
Contrast this with the views often espoused in the West. We may deplore the sexual exploitation of 9 year olds, but instead of fully embracing our views as true, right, and correct we tend to make allowances for the cultural environment of the other population. This is a critical difference - and, perhaps, one that is deadly in its implications.
In essence, one group (the Islamics) deeply believes that their actions are correct in an absolute sense. Those in opposition are unwilling to see their own way as absolutely correct. In the war of ideas, those with strong belief in a particular set of values seem to have an advantage.
We might wish to reflect on the implications for diverse, pluralistic societies. If part of the population believes strongly in a set of ideas, and the rest of the population is unwilling to fight for some other set of ideas, is not the outcome a foregone conclusion?
More pointedly, if those in the Western nations are not fully committed to their purported ideas, beliefs, and values, why should anyone else embrace them?
frostfire
12-28-2009, 11:46
Would the marriage of a 90 yo man to a 12-14 yo girl - as sanctioned by the mores of the society in which they live - make the man a pedophile?
Any answer to the question posited?
Richard
ah yes, cultural relativity, moral relativity, usw...
A QP posted once that just because it's culture doesn't make it right. Furthermore, when one does not stand up for something, one will fall for anything.
So, I sincerely believe and hope that for us (or anyone who clings to moral clarity), YES, the man is a pedophile. As for them, who knows, maybe the word pedophile is not in their dictionary? Still, when you heard cases of the betrothed little girl or her mother complaining and pleading for their "rights," perhaps deep inside they do realize there's something terribly wrong there.
YES, the man is a pedophile. As for them, who knows, maybe the word pedophile is not in their dictionary?
A: Mary of Nazareth (13)* who was wed to Joseph (90).
Cultural relativism? Moral relativism? :confused:
"A fish cannot see the water in which it swims."
Personally, I think fish are nice, but then I think the rain is wet, so who am I to judge?
IMO - it's a pretty BIG sea ( see?) we're all swimming in out there.
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
* Historical references vary between 12-14.
dr. mabuse
12-28-2009, 12:16
Whoa. Would appreciate seeing source specifics on the age of Mary and Joseph as well as your source for the definition of "almah" if you please sir.:munchin
Surgicalcric
12-28-2009, 14:43
I would like to see that data too.
It is commonly believed that he was in his 30-40's where I have studied/learned but there isnt alot of data to determine his age. Infact the Bible never mentions his age. Also it is believed by many in the church that Joseph and Mary never had sex...
As for Mary's age, it is believed that a woman was of age if they were menstruation. Presuming this was culturally accepted practice Mohammad still married A'isha when she was 6 and then consummated the marriage when she was 9, a far cry from the 13-15 yoa Mary was presumed to be.
Thats a difference of 4 years on the low end (15 vs 19-21 in our culture...)
PedOncoDoc
12-28-2009, 14:54
As for Mary's age, it is believed that a woman was of age if they were menstruation.
Due to the life expectancy of the times this was pretty much universal. When you boil it down to sheer biology and necessity, it takes 1 man to repopulate a society, but it takes many women, as each can only have 1 (or in uncommon circumastances 2 or 3) baby every 9+ months - delivery of the child was an event which had a high death rate for both mother and baby, and the death rate in the first year of life was very high. These are the reasons why women were married and had children at such a young age back then. Culture was dictated by biological necessity.
IMHO anything that can not/will not change with the times is already dying or dead. Unfortunately we cannot always epedite this process for things that are evil, but we can help to promote change to breathe life back into things worth keeping.
I think it was when painting got going good around the 13th to 15th centurys that they started painting Joseph as an old man to reinforce the idea that there had been no sex prior to their wedding.
Scant Bible stories of Joseph but there are ref's of Jesus working with his father and of Joseph with Jesus when he was 12. So he was working past 100? Must have been a stringy old bird.
From what I've read, the references citing Joseph's age of 90+ when becoming betrothed to Mary come from apocryphal texts, not canonical sources. Lots of information available in apocryphal sources, much of it conflicting even one another, let alone the accepted canon.
Surgicalcric
12-28-2009, 15:23
...Must have been a stringy old bird.
Not too unlike many of you guys... :D
Crip
Although little is actually said of Joseph's age and it is generally accepted that Joseph was in his 40s - the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings - used extensively in the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church and depicted in the art works of the day used to tell the Biblical story to the largely illiterate masses - state that when forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.
Personally, I believe he was probably in his 40s merely because it makes more sense to me and used the higher number to exaggerate the point I was making - but there are many who still believe the latter.
My point remains unchanged - such matters remain far more complex than many would admit and add to the overall complexity of any issues related to such strongly held cultural beliefs.
The difficulty with this conversation is that it's very different from most of the ones I've had of late which, quite enjoyably, have been with trees.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
As for Mary's age, it is believed that a woman was of age if they were menstruation. Presuming this was culturally accepted practice Mohammad still married A'isha when she was 6 and then consummated the marriage when she was 9, a far cry from the 13-15 yoa Mary was presumed to be.
In Joseph’s time, as well as Mohammed’s time, having “eyes for infant girls”, and sex with 9 year olds, was NOT customary. Mohammad was NOT a victim of the times.
The key difference between the two hinges on the word Prepubescent.
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child (pubescent), and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive (pubescent), and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
Although it was culturally common at the time for much older men to wed younger women, Muhammad had eyes for (Prepubescent) infant girls which enabled “mufa”
or “Mufaakhathah”, known as “Thighing” - in which Mohammed placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RMUyAy9zU0
Edited to add:
Although my daughter is almost grown, had I walked into her daycare to find some 40 year old perv changing her diaper - with his junk between between her legs - spanking his monkey, I wouldn’t have hesitated emptying 230 grains of hollow-point into his skull…
Seems as if theological matters are as unsettled in the scholarly Muslim world as in the others.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_that_Prophet_Muhammad_married_Aisha_whe n_she_was_only_six_years_old
Richard
olhamada
12-28-2009, 17:09
Also it is believed by many in the church that Joseph and Mary never had sex...
In the Catholic church - not the Protestant.
Then the question becomes, how would you explain Jesus' half-brothers and sisters if Joseph and Mary never had sex?
Seems as if theological matters are as unsettled in the scholarly Muslim world as in the others.
What are these "other" religions that allow for "Mufaakhathah", foreplay with infants or thighing, aka spanking the monkey with infants? :confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRaDul5av0g&feature=related
There are numeorous fatwa on th issue and it seems that rubbing ones crank between the legs of an infant is OK with "Big Mo"
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=23672&Option=FatwaId&x=40&y=13
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=92051&Option=FatwaId
Edited to add:
John Quincy Adams pretty much nailed it:
"...Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex...."
THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST:..."
FirstClass
12-28-2009, 20:17
Seems as if theological matters are as unsettled in the scholarly Muslim world as in the others.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_that_Prophet_Muhammad_married_Aisha_whe n_she_was_only_six_years_old
Richard
While people are "discussing" this theology, muslims aren't. It's there in the law and its not going to change.
Strangely, however, another Muslim theologian at the other end of the Muslim world reached the same exact conclusion? "Moroccan theologian: Muslim girls can wed at nine," Middle East Online, September 15:
" Sheikh Maghraoui reiterates his claims are based on Prophet Mohammad’s sayings.
RABAT - A Moroccan theologian repeated his claims Sunday that Muslim girls could marry as early as nine years old, arguing it was sanctioned by the Prophet Mohammed.
"The marriage of nine-year-old girls is not forbidden because according to the Hadith (the Prophet Mohammed's sayings), Mohammed married Aisha when she was only seven-years-old and he consummated his union when she was nine," wrote Sheikh Mohamed Ben Abderrahman Al-Maghraoui on his website (Maghrawi.net).
"I am a confirmed theologian and I have not made this up. It is the prophet who said it before me," said the Marrakesh-based founder of a religious association."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/09/moroccan-theologian-marrying-9-year-old-girls-permissible-mainstream-muslims-accuse-him-of-distortin.html
I. Also it is believed by many in the church that Joseph and Mary never had sex...
Correct, in the Catholic church it is taught that Mary was a virgin and the Immaculate Conception was how she became pregnant with Jesus. FYI the rest of us were conceived in sin.
So, in about the 5th grade I decided that was all a bunch of hooey and thus began my journey of becoming a "Recovering Catholic"...
dr. mabuse
12-28-2009, 21:47
I sense that even though theological arguments can go on ad naseum, the undercurrent of all off this is the FACT that there are motivated, well funded people that would do ANYTHING to bring/force this behavior and other unacceptable practices to our country. Isn't that the real issue?
An example, for example. Who gives a damn WHY a stranger broke into my house and is waving a weapon around. I don't have time to talk to him and hold hands and sing kumbaya and find out why he feels it's necessary and why I can't fathom in detail his complex cultural differences driving his actions. WTFO? Sometimes a little honest DA is the answer.
IIRC, they are in our back yard Richard.
Remember the honor killing (murder) of two young beautiful girls in Irving?
Remember that little Jordanian shite that almost blew down the skyscraper ( that 2 of my friends work in) in downtown Dallas. People in Dallas don't realize how close he came to getting away with it.
Remember how certain schools in DFW have chosen to bend over and grab ankles to accomodate our Muslim students even if it is disruptive to other students. Has that come to your area schools yet? Are you going to bow low to the school board if/when it comes to that?
I'm not an ugly American. I was raised abroad and lived and traveled abroad and fit in quite nicely over there. I've just seen one too many multilated women that offended their Musilm husbands to worry about the relative complexities of "culturally driven actions". The pedophile issue is just the tip of the iceburg.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to a SF, yet I wonder what's going on here? You said, "My point remains unchanged - such matters remain far more complex than many would admit and add to the overall complexity of any issues related to such strongly held cultural beliefs."
Yes, that's a true statement. They're complex. So what. That's MY point. So what? And chasing that squirrel down the hole specifically helps us solve the problem how?
Isn't the immediacy of the problem more important than grasping the complexities of how they got there? For our sake, I hope so.
Going out on a limb here, yet maybe not worrying so much about the complexities of the "why" and focusing ourselves about preventing the "where" and "when" would be useful.
Good Lord Almighty, I wonder what Col. Howard would say about this thread. I would bet some ears would be sizzling if we could hear him and for good reason.:mad:
And so it goes, INDEED.:rolleyes: :D
Remember the honor killing (murder) of two young beautiful girls in Irving?
I had to explain to my daughter why I was on myspace not long after this happened, it was linked to Pamela Gellers site when she was one of the few covering it as an Honor Killing. Needless to say, my daughter is now fully aware of Islamic Shariah.
http://www.myspace.com/semirockerchic
Her page stands in her memory - Amina's quote leaves me shaking my head in disgust :mad:
"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive"
dr. mabuse
12-29-2009, 00:42
A bitter tragedy. I'm old enough to remember when people wouldn't stand for this kind of thing.
Now, as a country, too many oxygen thieves would rather have a compassion circle-jerk than risk offending someone that needed an "adjustment". Yessiree.
Like the nutjob murderer at Fort Hood. We just need to ANAL-yze ad naseum and respect his cultural and complex differences and appreciate the nuances of what motivated him. Just make sure you don't offend him or others who display a proclivity like him.
I guess I better brush up on Arabic so I can read the traffic signs around here someday.
Watch and learn.
And so it goes, indeed...because we let it happen.:rolleyes:
Stingray
12-29-2009, 01:59
There are very few things right about prison politics. But, I do like the way pedophiles get theirs'.
I was taught that if somebody thinks they're an owl, presumably you just give them a mirror and a few pictures of owls and tell them to sort it out for themselves...I am beginning to think that's a far more difficult task than presumed.
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Peregrino
12-29-2009, 10:15
I was taught that if somebody thinks they're an owl, presumably you just give them a mirror and a few pictures of owls and tell them to sort it out for themselves...I am beginning to think that's a far more difficult task than presumed.
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Lets try a different analogy. Our bodies are filled with cancerous and pre-cancerous cells. A healthy immune system and a little luck means we live out our lives disease free. Compromise the immune system and/or run out of luck and - if you want to live - you get to fight for your life. Our cultural "immune system" has been compromised by PC. And given the tone of our national discussion I'm not so sure some of us "want to live".
People who suffer delusions of "Owlhood" may be abnormal but they are usually relatively benign. Islamofascists and their supporters (anyone who does not actively oppose them) are not. They are both cancers (metaphorically speaking). Benign tumors don't get the same treatment that malignancies do.
FWIW - I do not believe in moral relativism.
dr. mabuse
12-29-2009, 10:53
What do you do when the owls are scheming to kill you?
IIRC, paralysis of analysis has never saved anyone from anything, cancer (I know) or otherwise.
"Our cultural "immune system" has been compromised by PC. And given the tone of our national discussion I'm not so sure some of us "want to live"."
Too true. I even sense this tone in the CHL classes. Scary.
Neville Chamberlain's/ Barak Obama's disease...
Hoot Hoot!;)
I was taught that if somebody thinks they're an owl, presumably you just give them a mirror and a few pictures of owls and tell them to sort it out for themselves...I am beginning to think that's a far more difficult task than presumed.
I think you're right - it is very difficult.
From time to time, I speak of biases - for example, one of my biases is an orientation for doom and gloom. Another term, perhaps better, is lens - in this case, the lens (consisting of our experiences, attitudes, and beliefs) changes what we see when we look at ourselves, at others, and at the world.
If one holds up the mirror you refer to, the person will still pass everything seen through the lens of their mind and emotions. The problem with PC is that it demands blindness - in essence, our lens must filter out certain things. But this is no different than the lens others look through, which likewise filters out things they don't want to see. Thus, I will always see a suicide bomber as a vicious terrorist. It is not unreasonable to suppose that my mirror image (pun intended) in the Islamic world will always see them as fighters for the right and the good. Until those world-views - the lens we each look through - have some consistency, it seems unlikely that we can ever resolve the differences. They will be invisible to each side.
Going back to my lens, through which I perceive coming scarcity, I see a large and growing population which is already hostile and will seek to survive by taking what they need (or want) from me and others like me. Quite possibly, if my scenario is correct, they will perceive me (and others like me) as withholding essentials and causing the death of millions. It is my opinion that such views will add emotional loading to the views, which in turn will make the resolution of differences well-nigh impossible.
Whether we use the cancer analogy, or the possibility of conflict due to shortages, I think we might want to consider the possibility that conflict between the two groups is inevitable. That has implications which I won't belabor.
frostfire
12-29-2009, 22:21
A: Mary of Nazareth (13)* who was wed to Joseph (90).
Cultural relativism? Moral relativism? :confused:
Personally, I think fish are nice, but then I think the rain is wet, so who am I to judge?
IMO - it's a pretty BIG sea ( see?) we're all swimming in out there.
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
* Historical references vary between 12-14.
Richard Sir,
we have both mentioned the importance of context in our posts at one time and another. So if you're attacking/picking on the Book, at least keep it apples to apples. Not everything in the Book is to be followed down to the letter. There are ample immoral examples in the Book. The key criteria is whether they are condoned by the ultimate role model or not. Hence, the case of the moslem prophet being a pedophile should be compared to J.C. No moral or cultural relativism here. Additionally, one can continue to compare sources and puzzle over someones' ages who lived hundreds of years ago, but the same person can do research or go to these places and find child-adult marriage practices taking place on this very second. As previously posted, the arguments can go ad naseum and we miss the big picture.
Having said that, as I also told sigaba once, I sincerely believe that your perspective/stance is crucial in preventing those who fight monster from turning to monster themselves. As the old adage goes, "there's a time and place for everything."
GratefulCitizen
12-29-2009, 22:42
Speaking of mirrors...
The Decalogue is the ultimate mirror:
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.
Why is it that so many feel offended by such a simple list (of absolute morality)?
Perhaps they don't like looking in the mirror.
MOO:
You can rationalize anything which speaks to your intellect.
People don't like the Decalogue because it speaks to their conscience.
for example, one of my biases is an orientation for doom and gloom.
Doom and Gloom? No. I tend to look at you as cautious/skeptical/reserved all of which is backed up by histories, futures and trends.
I don't see the point of all this arguing. There's a pretty clear path of logic to follow in regards to Islam, and how completely backwards it is both in its violence and philosophy.
1. Deconstructionism (and by extension moral relativism, because both are extensions of the idea that truth is subjective and has only what meaning the individual puts to it) is wrong. Completely. Any scientific inquiry would be demonstrably pointless if this were true. As I am sitting at a construct of silicone using electrons to transmit information over a network that is not visible to my "subjective" eyes, I reject this school of thought based on my own "subjective" experiences (which are in fact objective).
2. Islam as it is interpreted by those who practice it, has complete moral relativism. The only true moral imperative of Islam is the advancement of Islam. All else is secondary. Arguments about pedophilia in the Bible and Koran are pointless, because for most Christians the Bible is not the only source of our laws. Every other religion follows values pointing towards a "natural law". Maybe Joseph was 40 and Mary was 13; no one knows. But I don't recall any stories about Jesus sodomizing 9 year olds. And if we are taking this from the Islamic viewpoint, shouldn't we be comparing Prophet to Prophet?
Jesus expounded laws such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" and followed them absolutely. Mohammed did not. Islam has no absolute truth besides the advancement of Islam, and the material gain therein for its followers.
Christians will say "God is the ultimate in goodness". Muslims say "God is Great, Wise" for a reason. They refuse to acknowledge restraints on Allah. This essentially means that Allah is not restrained to only being good.
etc, etc.
3. Finally, just to reverse this and make it circular; Islam as both a religion and as a society has remained largely stagnant for the past thousand years. No great scientific discoveries, no great leaps. Their schools study only Islam; They only see inwards. Sounds like moral relativism.
And to me, deconstructionism is a kind of insanity. It's a denial of the truth of your senses.
my 2 cents...hope it made sense to someone ;)
It seems to me as if the impossible often has a kind of integrity to it which the merely improbable lacks.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Warrior-Mentor
01-05-2010, 18:58
Richard Sir,
we have both mentioned the importance of context in our posts at one time and another. So if you're attacking/picking on the Book, at least keep it apples to apples. Not everything in the Book is to be followed down to the letter. There are ample immoral examples in the Book. The key criteria is whether they are condoned by the ultimate role model or not. Hence, the case of the moslem prophet being a pedophile should be compared to J.C. No moral or cultural relativism here. Additionally, one can continue to compare sources and puzzle over someones' ages who lived hundreds of years ago, but the same person can do research or go to these places and find child-adult marriage practices taking place on this very second. As previously posted, the arguments can go ad naseum and we miss the big picture.
Having said that, as I also told sigaba once, I sincerely believe that your perspective/stance is crucial in preventing those who fight monster from turning to monster themselves. As the old adage goes, "there's a time and place for everything."
A picture is worth a thousand words:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/01/islamic-cleric-among-10-held-in-forced-child-marriage-case.html
FirstClass
01-05-2010, 23:30
A picture is worth a thousand words:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/01/islamic-cleric-among-10-held-in-forced-child-marriage-case.html
"This custom is illegal in Pakistan but still practiced in some areas. Recently the courts in Pakistan have begun taking serious note and action against the continuation of the practice."
They don't even know what they believe. I'm pretty sure that you can twist the koran into saying whatever you want it to.
Warrior-Mentor
01-06-2010, 06:54
"This custom is illegal in Pakistan but still practiced in some areas. Recently the courts in Pakistan have begun taking serious note and action against the continuation of the practice."
They don't even know what they believe. I'm pretty sure that you can twist the koran into saying whatever you want it to.
Not true.
On what basis do you make this statement?
Once you understand the concept of abrogation and the chronological order of the koran, it becomes clear.
They know what they believe. They know what advances the cause of islam.
What they tell you [as a non-muslim Westerner] can be, an often is, completely contradictory in order to advance the cause of islam.
Why?
It's the law. Sharia law that is. It's already been covered here in a a number of other threads. Bottom line is by sharia, there's information Muslims are required to know and information that you, as a non-Muslim, are ALLOWED to know. Anything else, and the Muslim is REQUIRED to lie to protect islam. Period.
A good place to start is by reading actual islamic law.
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Start with paragraph r1.0, page 729, "The Importance of Holding One's Tongue."
Get a copy and read it for yourself.
You can insert Sigaba's ontological pessimism argument here:
["How can we ever know what is the "truth" about anything?"]
But it just doesn't pass muster for me.
Do the research and see what you find for yourself.
testedone
01-06-2010, 08:21
Not true.
On what basis do you make this statement?
Once you understand the concept of abrogation and the chronological order of the koran, it becomes clear.
They know what they believe. They know what advances the cause of islam.
What they tell you [as a non-muslim Westerner] can be, an often is, completely contradictory in order to advance the cause of islam.
Why?
It's the law. Sharia law that is. It's already been covered here in a a number of other threads. Bottom line is by sharia, there's information Muslims are required to know and information that you, as a non-Muslim, are ALLOWED to know. Anything else, and the Muslim is REQUIRED to lie to protect islam. Period.
A good place to start is by reading actual islamic law.
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Start with paragraph r1.0, page 729, "The Importance of Holding One's Tongue."
Get a copy and read it for yourself.
You can insert Sigaba's ontological pessimism argument here:
["How can we ever know what is the "truth" about anything?"]
But it just doesn't pass muster for me.
Do the research and see what you find for yourself.
I am glad I picked that book up sir...there it is in black and white...
"when one wishes to speak, one must first reflect, and if there is a clear interest to be served by speaking, one speaks, while if one doubts it, one remains silent until the advantage becomes apparent"
Don't say anything unless it benefits you...
Warrior-Mentor
01-06-2010, 10:16
I am glad I picked that book up sir...there it is in black and white...
"when one wishes to speak, one must first reflect, and if there is a clear interest to be served by speaking, one speaks, while if one doubts it, one remains silent until the advantage becomes apparent"
Don't say anything unless it benefits you...
Not only that, but paragraph r2.0 on "Slander" covers it in more depth.
Definition at para r2.2 "Slander means to mention anything concerning a person that he would dislike, whether about his body, religion, everyday life, self, ...or anything else connected to him."
Combine that with "the Muslim is the Brother of the Muslim." and you can see why Muslims are forbidden from saying anything bad about islam.
See also Para r2.6
(2) "Do you know what slander is?"..."It is to mention of your brother that which he would dislike."....
(3) "The Muslim is the brother of the Muslim. He does not betray him, lie to him, or hang back from his aid. ALL of the Muslim is inviolable to his fellow Muslim; his reputation, his property, his blood. ...It is sufficiently wicked for someone to belittle his fellow Muslim."
For further reading, check out "freedom of Expression in Islam" by Mohammad Hashim Kamali.
http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Expression-Fundamental-Rights-Liberties/dp/0946621608/ref=pd_sim_b_3
greenberetTFS
01-06-2010, 12:23
A bitter tragedy. I'm old enough to remember when people wouldn't stand for this kind of thing.
Now, as a country, too many oxygen thieves would rather have a compassion circle-jerk than risk offending someone that needed an "adjustment". Yessiree.
Like the nutjob murderer at Fort Hood. We just need to ANAL-yze ad naseum and respect his cultural and complex differences and appreciate the nuances of what motivated him. Just make sure you don't offend him or others who display a proclivity like him.
I guess I better brush up on Arabic so I can read the traffic signs around here someday.
Watch and learn.
And so it goes, indeed...because we let it happen.
dr.mabuse,
Your right on target,I too am old enough to remember when shit like this would never have been tolerated.........:rolleyes::eek::(
Big Teddy :munchin
dr. mabuse
01-06-2010, 18:59
Glad I'm not alone on this one GreenberetTFS.
I ran into a former 5th Special Forces down at DPS in Austin that I knew that commented on me and a friend that he knew saying that we were a dying breed.
It was a high complement coming from someone like him.
You post reminded me of that for some reason.:D
RECOLLECT, v. To recall with additions something not previously known.*
And so it goes...
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Ambrose Bierce*
It doesn't matter what we think. If that old fella with the beard wants to bang a 12 year old he is going to do it and use any excuse to make it okay. Does making it ok? No, but right now they're effing the dog and we are holding the leash. I say we sit back and let soceity switch the collars while he's not looking, lol.
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
(Sura 33:21 YUSUFALI)
Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
(Sura 33:21 PICKTHAL)
Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.
(Sura 33:21 SHAKIR)
Muhammad's exemplary example :D > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrliUDC-IzY
I am sitting here on VBC reading this....As a PSYOPER I was told to read and study and try to persuade and influence. Well after reading and studying I have come to learn (thanks to everything I have read and am reading here right now) I can not change an individual with extremist views. Thanks for all of teachings guys really good stuff here. (I also just spent like 100$ on books from amazon thanks :D)
[I]Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.
Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.
Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
Afghan Warlord Allah Dad: "Some Men Enjoy Playing with Dogs, Some with Women; I Enjoy Playing with Boys"...
:eek:
> http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/209136.php
dr.mabuse,
Your right on target,I too am old enough to remember when shit like this would never have been tolerated.........:rolleyes::eek::(
Big Teddy :munchin
Brother, I was thinking the other day of the epitaph that would one day be written across my headstone, "Here beneath the clay, Wet Dog, son, brother, father, lover".
Now I'm afraid it might read, "Wet Dog, Whereabouts Unknown, last seen marching East in defense of his country, his faith and his grand-children's freedom, assumed KIA. Beware - The Dog may return".