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Warrior-Mentor
12-08-2009, 08:55
Little more Monday morning quaterbacking, which is interesting.

Well, I agree with Sen Kerry's staffer who wrote this on at least one point...

Los Angeles Times
December 8, 2009
Pg. 35

Bin Laden's Escape
By Sen. John Kerry

Eight years ago this month, Osama bin Laden walked out of the Tora Bora mountains in Afghanistan and disappeared into Pakistan. U.S. intelligence agencies have no real idea where he is today, but it is clear that the world's most wanted man and the terrorist organization he leads have reemerged as a powerful force behind the increasingly deadly insurgencies in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Three senior Obama administration officials warned last week that Al Qaeda is more dangerous than at any time in the last 18 months. They gave the Senate Foreign Relations Committee a frightening bill of particulars: Al Qaeda is providing training and resources for militants attacking U.S. troops in Afghanistan, assisting suicide bombers in Pakistan and helping extremists plot new attacks on India. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton described Bin Laden's Al Qaeda as a "syndicate of terrorism." Underscoring the danger, she said the terrorists are seeking nuclear weapons.

If we had captured or killed Bin Laden, the world would look very different today. His death or imprisonment would not have eliminated the worldwide extremist threat, but our failure to finish the job represents a lost opportunity that altered the course of the conflict in Afghanistan and the future of international terrorism. It left the American people more vulnerable, and it inflamed the strife that now threatens to engulf Pakistan and Afghanistan.

History is filled with examples demonstrating that terrorist organizations are invariably much stronger with their charismatic leaders than without them. The capture of Abdullah Ocalan in 1999 weakened the Kurdistan Workers Party in Turkey, and the imprisonment of Abimael Guzman in 1992 had a similar effect on Peru's Shining Path.

The failure to get Bin Laden was not inevitable. By early December 2001, he and his deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, were cornered in a complex of caves and tunnels carved into the rugged terrain of eastern Afghanistan, just a few miles from the border with Pakistan. They endured days of relentless bombing by U.S. aircraft, and Bin Laden clearly expected to be overrun any day by American troops and their Afghan allies. According to Steve Coll's excellent book on the Bin Laden family, the Al Qaeda leader wrote his will on Dec. 14.

As a recent report by the majority staff of the Foreign Relations Committee made clear, there is no longer any dispute over whether Bin Laden was at Tora Bora. CIA and Delta Force commanders on the scene told the staff that he was there and described intercepting his voice on radio communications. Most authoritatively, Bin Laden's presence was confirmed by the official history of the U.S. Special Operations Command, which oversees Delta Force, the Green Berets, Navy SEALs and similar special forces. "All source reporting corroborated his presence on several days from 9-14 December," said the unclassified version of the history, which was published with little notice in 2007.

The final assault that Bin Laden feared never came. Fewer than 100 U.S. special operations commandos were at Tora Bora, not enough to defeat the entrenched Al Qaeda fighters. Calls for reinforcements were rejected. So were requests for U.S. troops to block the exit routes to sanctuary in Pakistan a few miles away. The vast array of U.S. military power was kept on the sidelines by senior commanders who entrusted one of the primary objectives of the war to airstrikes and unreliable Afghan and Pakistani allies.

Military analysts estimate it would have taken only 2,000 or so American troops to accomplish the mission. Most would have been deployed on the southern side of Tora Bora to block escape routes to Pakistan. About 500 would have carried out the final assault from the north. We had enough troops in or near Afghanistan at the time, and they were trained for this type of unconventional fight in rugged terrain.

More than 1,000 members of two Marine expeditionary units were not far away in Kandahar, but their commander's request to move to Tora Bora to encircle Bin Laden was rejected. Roughly the same number of troops from the Army's 10th Mountain Division was split between southern Uzbekistan and Bagram air base, a short helicopter ride from Tora Bora. Instead, Gen. Tommy Franks left the job to a motley collection of Afghan militiamen and Pakistani Frontier Corps paramilitary fighters who never showed up.

Franks and his boss, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, were determined to succeed in Afghanistan with a light footprint. They justified limiting the number of U.S. troops by saying they wanted to avoid stirring up anti-American sentiment and creating a protracted insurgency. Unfortunately, in failing to get Bin Laden, we wound up with exactly what we had hoped to avoid in Afghanistan -- and a virulent insurgency across the border in Pakistan, a nuclear-armed ally.

Getting Bin Laden at Tora Bora would have been dangerous, and success was not guaranteed. Failing to try meant that we had no chance for success. Our men and women in uniform have been paying the price for eight years and, as 30,000 more of them are preparing to finish the job, we must all remember that we can't ensure our national security by turning our backs on enemies who have sworn to destroy us.
John Kerry (D-Mass.) chairs the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

SOURCE:
http://ebird.osd.mil/ebfiles/e20091208721183.html

LarryW
12-08-2009, 09:12
U.S. intelligence agencies have no real idea where he is today...

Not sure if I believe this. IMHO, methinks the turd and his butt-buddy are in Iran. Neither the Taliban nor the other Pakistani magots have the infrastructure or resolve to hide OBL for this long. Barking at a cave in Wasuristan or NW Pakistan is a good way for the godless bastards to keep us busy in someone elses yard. I think our intelligence community is smarter than to fall wholesale for OBL living in a cave in the mountains. We have to pick our timing to expose him and take him out. Politics...gads!

Richard
12-08-2009, 09:28
U.S. intelligence agencies have no real idea where he is today...

OBL or JFK? Maybe they're both cruising the backwaters of JFKs old self-proclaimed stomping ground - Cambodia. :rolleyes: No wonder we can't find them - they have no idea where they are, either.

Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin

LarryW
12-08-2009, 09:39
True...they're lost, but their speed over the ground is impressive!

Team Sergeant
12-08-2009, 10:32
Funny how no one can confirm if "osama bin coward" was actually there or not.

His sighting or known location at Tora Bora was based on "hearsay" and no hard intel. Intel that probably came from the same individuals that quit on Cpt. Thomas Greer, aka delta force "Commander" ;).

Now the left wing thinks it's the right's fault osama is not six feet under, funny, I blame bill "slick willie" clinton that osama is still breathing..... SGM Billy Waugh could have/ would have killed osama if given the order to do so. Slick willie didn't have the balls to order his killing. slick willie did order a $100,000,000 Tomahawk strike into the middle of no-where and ensured he called ahead to warn "overflown countries" that the strike would take place. Funny how no-one was killed in that strike.

Let's get the story straight, this is the left wing's "fault" osama is breathing. Cpt. Thomas Greer and his team "thinks" osama was there at Tora Bora.

Our "intel community" needs new leadership and a whole lot less money.

While the left wing spins up this osama story, the real story is the fact no one is currently looking for osama, because he's dead, dead since 2002. Ask SGM Billy Waugh, (who BTW just had his 80th Birthday!)

TS

Paslode
12-08-2009, 13:03
Slick willie didn't have the balls to order his killing. slick willie did order a $100,000,000 Tomahawk strike into the middle of no-where and ensured he called ahead to warn "overflown countries" that the strike would take place. Funny how no-one was killed in that strike.


From recollection, The Silver Zipper had his balls focused on another target around that time.....a certain intern named Monica Lewinski, a cigar and a Blue Dress with semen stains. And rumor has it the Tomahawk strike was a diversion from his sordid affair.

You look at the terrorist time line of events prior 9/11 and much of it falls right into Billy Boys lap.

SkiBumCFO
12-08-2009, 20:39
Ask SGM Billy Waugh, (who BTW just had his 80th Birthday!)


Congrats SGM BW!! I was at MG Cleveland's CofC in Tampa last year and saw what i believed to be the SGM across the other side of the room and there is no way anyone would ever think he looked almost 80. Amazing.

TS dont be too hard on the Intel Pukes especially the former SF ones :)

Streck-Fu
12-09-2009, 19:57
..... the real story is the fact no one is currently looking for osama, because he's dead, dead since 2002. Ask SGM Billy Waugh, (who BTW just had his 80th Birthday!)

TS

Any chance I could ask for a non-compromising elaboration? I do not question, only hope it to be true.

Warrior-Mentor
12-09-2009, 20:13
Any chance I could ask for a non-compromising elaboration? I do not question, only hope it to be true.

I'll second your request. CIA has validated too many voice prints since then for me to track...

Team Sergeant
12-10-2009, 11:08
I'll second your request. CIA has validated too many voice prints since then for me to track...

We've discussed this many times..... the CIA confirming "voice prints" is like Bernie Madoff telling you how to make a few bucks.

In this day and age a flash drive can carry hours of audio/video and it's just as easy to move audio as it is "audio & video". After 2002 we only saw #2 on video. #2 and #1 were supposed to be sharing the same cave, if #2 can get out audio & video than why can't number one? (unless he's currently taking a dirt nap)

When we entered Iraq #1 was no where to be "seen". This Iraq war would have been the islamic jihad version of the "Super Bowl" for al quada and this would have been the time for #1 to make a video and fire up his followers, didn't happen. #2 made a video and again it was stated #2 & #1 were together, again no #1 video, just "audio".

Since 2002 we've not seen #1 on video that could be dated, not once. We did receive audio, and it was mentioned that it might be #1's son making the audio. #2 continues to made audio/video's.

You show me an audio/video of #1 making fun of our "Community Organizer" and I'll believe he's still alive.

He's been dead since 2002, that's when #1's video's ended.

TS

Streck-Fu
12-10-2009, 11:34
What would be the motivation to suppress the death of Bin Laden? The ultimate criticism of the war in Afghanistan seems to be that after 8 years, we have not killed/captured UBL. If he was killed, especially early on, why suppress the ultimate justice?

Ret10Echo
12-10-2009, 11:37
What would be the motivation to suppress the death of Bin Laden? The ultimate criticism of the war in Afghanistan seems to be that after 8 years, we have not killed/captured UBL. If he was killed, especially early on, why suppress the ultimate justice?

Why admit your sworn enemy was effective in blotting out your leader?

Streck-Fu
12-10-2009, 12:02
Why admit your sworn enemy was effective in blotting out your leader?

Please excuse my lack of understanding. I take it you refer to GWB as my leader at the time of the alleged death. I'm not understanding how you are using the term 'blotting out' when referring to the former President or how bin Laden's death would be a bad thing to publicize.

I would think that considering the nature of all politicians, parading the death of bin Laden would be politically advantageous for all incumbents ahead of the 2004 elections. That, and it seems like too good of a thing to be successfully kept as a secret for so many years. Someone would have leaked it.

Ret10Echo
12-10-2009, 12:09
Please excuse my lack of understanding. I take it you refer to GWB as my leader at the time of the alleged death. I'm not getting how you are using the term 'blotting out'.

I would think that considering the nature of politicians, parading the death of bin Laden would be politically advantageous for all incumbents. ahead of the 2004 elections.

A.Q. will make no admissions.....

Politicos will be concerned of a "resurfacing".....

Status Quo is maintained.

PedOncoDoc
12-10-2009, 12:09
Streck-

You are assuming that it is OUR leaders with the intel - not theirs. It would be terrible for morale in AQ if it became widely known that their spokesman and leader had been killed several years ago.

Team Sergeant
12-10-2009, 12:12
What would be the motivation to suppress the death of Bin Laden? The ultimate criticism of the war in Afghanistan seems to be that after 8 years, we have not killed/captured UBL. If he was killed, especially early on, why suppress the ultimate justice?

I've thought that out also, if we admit we killed him (the USA) we martyr him. No one else has the balls to tell the world they killed him, so the status quo remains.

If #2 wants his tribe (al quada) to remain in charge of the jihad he still acts as if #1 is still giving the orders. If he tells the world that #1 was killed by the USA early on it show how weak & stupid they are as jihadists.

You want to go work for a weak & stupid tribe of jihadists? (not including democrats)

Streck-Fu
12-10-2009, 12:29
Streck-

You are assuming that it is OUR leaders with the intel - not theirs. It would be terrible for morale in AQ if it became widely known that their spokesman and leader had been killed several years ago.

And there's the light bulb. Thank you.

My questioning was premised around the idea that an American killed bin Laden which would mean the leadership would know. I can understand AQ hiding his death if it happened during an airstrike or event in which we could not verify it.

Streck-Fu
12-10-2009, 12:35
I've thought that out also, if we admit we killed him (the USA) we martyr him.

I want to think that this scenario would be preferred but I have little faith in politicians and other bureaucrats keeping such a secret at the expense of political opportunism.

PedOncoDoc
12-10-2009, 12:38
My questioning was premised around the idea that an American killed bin Laden which would mean the leadership would know. I can understand AQ hiding his death if it happened during an airstrike or event in which we could not verify it.

HTH.

There's a good chance that if bin Laden was killed, it was through USAF efforts. Having someone present to confirm the kill is an entirely different matter. ;)

Streck-Fu
12-10-2009, 12:42
HTH.

There's a good chance that if bin Laden was killed, it was through USAF efforts. Having someone present to confirm the kill is an entirely different matter. ;)

That is completely understood. :cool:

PSM
12-10-2009, 13:22
I've thought that out also, if we admit we killed him (the USA) we martyr him. No one else has the balls to tell the world they killed him, so the status quo remains.


Also, the dems would have said, "We got him! Justice is served. Bring home the troops and investigate their war crimes."

Pat

walleyed
12-10-2009, 18:52
First post. Sorry to hijack this thread. I joined to ask this question of this community...

Where would the best place for a concerned citizen to donate money towards fighting AQ and specifically killing OBL with evidence? Obviously I pay taxes and some of that goes to the military, I wish I could designate it go 100% to this effort, but I can't. I would imagine there are others like me who would be willing to donate. Thank you in advance for any assistance in this sincere request.

Ret10Echo
12-10-2009, 19:03
First post. Sorry to hijack this thread. I joined to ask this question of this community...

Where would the best place for a concerned citizen to donate money towards fighting AQ and specifically killing OBL with evidence? Obviously I pay taxes and some of that goes to the military, I wish I could designate it go 100% to this effort, but I can't. I would imagine there are others like me who would be willing to donate. Thank you in advance for any assistance in this sincere request.

First...

Read the instructions you received and comply concerning introductions and posting

Second...

There is a great deal of information on the site on how to LEGALLY support organizations that seek to expose the islamist movement in the U.S. for what it is. I would strongly suggest you utilize the SEARCH function.

The Reaper
12-10-2009, 19:05
First post. Sorry to hijack this thread. I joined to ask this question of this community...

Where would the best place for a concerned citizen to donate money towards fighting AQ and specifically killing OBL with evidence? Obviously I pay taxes and some of that goes to the military, I wish I could designate it go 100% to this effort, but I can't. I would imagine there are others like me who would be willing to donate. Thank you in advance for any assistance in this sincere request.

Please read the rules and stickies for this board and comply before posting again.

TR

Sigaba
12-12-2009, 15:45
Unfortunately, in failing to get Bin Laden, we wound up with exactly what we had hoped to avoid in Afghanistan -- and a virulent insurgency across the border in Pakistan, a nuclear-armed ally.
Someone in Senator Kerry's office could stand to find and to read David H. Fischer's Historians' Fallacies: Toward a Logic of Historical Thought.

I can understand why Senator Kerry himself may not have read that work. When it came out in paper back 1970, he was a bit busy.:rolleyes: