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Warrior-Mentor
11-20-2009, 05:28
Consider this a "dueling op-ed" to counter Krauthammer's Travesty in New York.

Robinson's ignorance and hypocrisy warrants commentary...

November 20, 2009
Battlefield in the War of Ideas
By Eugene Robinson

WASHINGTON -- Critics of Attorney General Eric Holder's decision to bring the self-proclaimed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks and four other accused terrorists to New York for trial can't seriously believe the city will have trouble handling the expected "Trial of the Century" hoopla. The critics can't really think a judge is going to give Khalid Sheik Mohammed an open microphone to spew his jihadist views, or fear that a jury -- sitting just blocks from Ground Zero -- will look for reasons to let an accused mass murderer off on some technicality.

Everyone knows that the bloodthirsty blowhard -- whom officials often refer to by his initials, KSM -- is never going to see the light of day.

[COMMENT: So where's the justice in a trial where the outcome is pre-determined? This reinforces the argument that this is a show trial.]

The uproar is really about the word "war." Outrage is being voiced by those who worry that Holder and President Obama are abandoning the Bush-era doctrine of a "war on terrorism" that must at all times be conducted by military means.

[COMMENT: It is a war. Even if you foolishly refuse to acknowledge it.]

Those critics are wrong. The problem is that we can vanquish al-Qaeda and its affiliated groups without defeating the larger enemy: a militant, fundamentalist perversion of Islam.

[COMMENT: It's not a perversion of islam. It is islam. Read the koran, the hadith and the sira. Read the islamic jurisprudence. Read the words of the islamic leadership.]

We can and should go after Osama bin Laden and his collaborators with relentless determination and, yes, that fight should be led by our armed forces. But to achieve a meaningful victory, we also have to win the war of ideas -- and in that philosophical and theological struggle, the concept of justice is a key battlefield.

It's amazing that so many people who insist on the "war on terrorism" framework apparently have such little interest in understanding the enemy, which seems to me the only way to find the enemy's vulnerabilities. The jihadist narrative is largely about justice, or rather what radical imams and their followers perceive as injustice.

In the enemy's version of history, the West -- meaning the United States, Israel, Britain and what used to be called Christendom -- has a long history of exploiting the Muslim world. We occupy Muslim lands to steal their resources. We install corrupt lackeys as their rulers. For all our high and mighty talk about fairness and justice, we reserve these luxuries for ourselves. In this warped worldview, we deserve any atrocities that jihadist "warriors" might commit against us.

Protesting that all this is absurd and obscene does not make it go away. And our troops' military success actually helps to further the jihadist narrative about a "crusade" against Islam.

[COMMENT: It is absurd. Our troops successes reinforce that we are right. You see, in their warped view, allah doesn't lose wars. If they are losing, it's because they are not doing the will of allah. We need to kick their ass from here to hell to show them that they aren't doing allah's work. That they are cannon fodder for an empty ideology invented by a pedophile.

It's ironic that many of the officials and commentators who are so upset about the decision to give KSM a civilian trial were also quick to call the Fort Hood killings an act of terrorism.

[COMMENT: There's no irony there. These are the people who understand the threat.]

If the suspect, Maj. Nidal Hasan, is indeed a terrorist -- and not just a deranged man who snapped -- then his awful rampage helps demonstrate the point I'm making. Hasan reportedly considered the U.S. military deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan a war against Islam, at one point arguing that Muslim soldiers should be excused from combat as conscientious objectors. In other words, he apparently bought at least part of the jihadist line. If killing a terrorist in Kandahar creates one in Killeen, we'll never make progress.

[COMMENT: You couldn't be more wrong. You seem to subscribe to the warped French military philosophy that the best way to defeat an enemy is to surrender to them.]


In this context, putting KSM and the others on trial in a civilian proceeding on U.S. soil is not just a duty but an opportunity. It's a way to show that we do not have one system of justice for ourselves and another for Muslims, that we give defendants their day in court, that we insist they be vigorously defended by competent counsel -- that we really do practice what we preach.

[COMMENT: We don't have another system of justice for Muslims. We have another system of justice for war criminals - for terrorists. And as Holder showed this week, we still have two systems of justice. But he's perverted the two into a bizzaro world - where war criminals get the rights of our citizens for killing civilians. What warped sense of justice is that?]

Even if a military tribunal would be just as fair -- and a military court might be even more offended by the fact that KSM was subjected to waterboarding -- a trial by men and women in uniform would be seen as an extension of the "war on Islam."

COMMENT: Boo hoo. Maybe they'll stop attacking us after we win this war.]

Holder's choice is not without risk. The biggest question I have is whether an impartial jury could be impaneled in New York. And while I believe the chance of an acquittal is incredibly remote, if it [an acquittal] happened, KSM would be kept in indefinite detention anyway -- a nightmare scenario.

[COMMENT: Ding-Ding-Ding. We have a winner! The light finally seems to come on. Remind me again, why didn't we let him plead guilty?]

But there's one more huge benefit to a civilian trial: It would show the preachers of hatred and their followers that we're not afraid of them or their poisonous ideas. It would show that they haven't changed us or our ideals -- and that they never will.

I say bring it on.

[COMMENT: Brave words from someone who's not sworn an oath to "protect and defend" our Constitution.]

Write him at:
eugenerobinson@washpost.com

Dozer523
11-20-2009, 07:13
COMMENT: It's not a perversion of islam. It is islam. Read the koran, the hadith and the sira. Read the islamic jurisprudence. Read the words of the islamic leadership. Okay. Islam, All Islam is bad. I think I finally get that. Not just bad but irreconcilably, irretrievably, uncompromisingly bad.
So what do we do now since Islam is the world's second largest religion after Christianity, according to a 2009 demographic study there are 1.57 billion adherents, comprising 23% of the world population?[wiki]

Warrior-Mentor
11-20-2009, 08:14
Okay. Islam, All Islam is bad. I think I finally get that. Not just bad but irreconcilably, irretrievably, uncompromisingly bad.
So what do we do now since Islam is the world's second largest religion after Christianity, according to a 2009 demographic study there are 1.57 billion adherents, comprising 23% of the world population?[wiki]

Short term goal is to start with educating yourself fully. Do the deep dive. Know the enemy.

Then help educate friends and family. Ensure they know the extent of the problem.

Learn not just their doctrine, but their goals and strategies.

Then we need to start pushing back against mafia entities like CAIR.

Mid-term goal is to disassemble the criminal organizations that are being allowed to thrive by hiding under the false mantle of a "religion."

Long term goal is the ultimate exposure and expulsion of islam for what it is: an evil supremacist ideology.

It won't be easy. And it won't be pretty. This is a fight that's been going on (more or less) or 1,400 years...we've got a long way to go.

Interestingly, I think the internet, a technology invented by the United States to help communication survive in the event of a nuclear holocaust, will ultimately be a key platform for exposing this new and perhaps greater existential threat.

Once you know heir doctrine, goals and strategy - it's easy to see what they are doing and why. It's the reason they are funding so many people to create bullshit books that white wash islam's ugly side. Read anything by that intellectual prostitute, traitor John Esposito from Georgetown University and you'll understand what I mean.*

Some complain about Robert Spencer because he's jewish. Fine. Don't read him. Read Nonie Darwish, or Brigitte Gabriel or Ibn Warraq, or Wafa Sultan...or any other former Muslim...
____________
* How can I so easily dismiss the "distinguished professor"? Let's start with something simple.
His dictionary of islam. His definition of jihad. Compare it with Thomas Hughes dictionary of islam.
More importantly, compare it with the definition in islamic law.
It means "to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion."
So how can he justify any other definition. Ask him. He'll tell you anything the Saudis want you to know. After all, Esposito is the Founding Director of the Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding (CMCU) at Georgetown University. Saudis have donated over $20 MILLION to the CMCU.

T-Rock
11-20-2009, 10:55
So what do we do now since Islam is the world's second largest religion...

From a civilians POV…....if it's possible...

IMHO - in order to defeat Islam, it must be slowly discredited in the eyes of the world as Nazism was. This will undoubtedly take a very long time. The solution to Islam will be its discrediting, not only to non-Muslims but to Muslims as well. Once this occurs, the practitioners of Islam will desert in droves, and it’s already happening, we just need to accelerate this process:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/muslims-leaving-islam-in-droves/

Islam needs to be made unattractive to both its current practitioners, and to those who might otherwise be tempted to convert. It may not be politically correct but there are many ways of doing this if we’re willing.

Our focus should be on a campaign to disable Islam, not our current one that enables it. The reality is uncomfortable but let the truth be revealed and the chips fall where they may. If Islam isn’t discredited, we’re fighting a never-ending battle…

lindy
11-20-2009, 17:04
Okay. Islam, All Islam is bad. I think I finally get that. Not just bad but irreconcilably, irretrievably, uncompromisingly bad.


I don't get it. I'm not trying to be a SA but rather trying to understand this thread. I don't get how a religion that has been around since circa 633 AD but yet has only "recently" (i.e. Nov '79) been at war with the US.

Long term goal is the ultimate exposure and expulsion of islam for what it is: an evil supremacist ideology.

Sir, I assume you're talking about Wahabbism here. But Sufism. Evil?

I lived in a Shi'a country for 3 years with very few Westerners and, for the most part, experienced curiosity and not evil. Granted, once I was near a Wahabbi mosque and I did have one encounter with a short-pants wearing, long-beard having "fellow" who clearly would have killed me if he had the chance. It was a very sobering experience.

I am NOT a Muslim sympathizer but I do consider myself culturally aware and also someone who still has a lot to learn about my fellow man. I would argue that we are at war with people who have perverted Islam to justify and FINANCE their evil acts.

T-Rock
11-21-2009, 20:59
I don't get it. I'm not trying to be a SA but rather trying to understand this thread. I don't get how a religion that has been around since circa 633 AD but yet has only "recently" (i.e. Nov '79) been at war with the US.


John Quincy Adams and Thomas Jefferson would beg to differ...

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman, and they inquired by what right the Maghrib preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers....and this was 200 years prior to America becoming a dominant international power in the Middle East.

"The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise"
-Thomas Jefferson-



"…he [Muhammad] declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.."
-John Quincy Adams-

Warrior-Mentor
11-22-2009, 12:47
I am NOT a Muslim sympathizer but I do consider myself culturally aware and also someone who still has a lot to learn about my fellow man. I would argue that we are at war with people who have perverted Islam to justify and FINANCE their evil acts.

Welcome to Professionalsoldiers.com! Plenty of threads at length on this...

Have you read the islamic doctrine? Have you read the islamic LAW?

We'll help get you up to speed and past the taqiyya (religious doctrinal deception required to deceive non-Muslims about the very nature of islam).

Start by reading "The Al Qaeda Reader."
http://www.amazon.com/Al-Qaeda-Reader-Raymond-Ibrahim/dp/076792262X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258915568&sr=1-1

Then get a copy of "Reliance of the Traveller."
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Traveller-Classic-Islamic-Al-Salik/dp/0915957728/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258915542&sr=8-1

Finally, compare the notes and references cited by Bin Laden and Zawahiri with the actual islamic law. Zawahiri's family held prominent positions at Al-Azahr Univeristy - prhaps the most distinguished school of islamic jurispruence in the world (consider it the Harvard or Oxford of islamic law).

The Reaper
11-22-2009, 12:53
I don't get it. I'm not trying to be a SA but rather trying to understand this thread. I don't get how a religion that has been around since circa 633 AD but yet has only "recently" (i.e. Nov '79) been at war with the US.

Sir, I assume you're talking about Wahabbism here. But Sufism. Evil?

I lived in a Shi'a country for 3 years with very few Westerners and, for the most part, experienced curiosity and not evil. Granted, once I was near a Wahabbi mosque and I did have one encounter with a short-pants wearing, long-beard having "fellow" who clearly would have killed me if he had the chance. It was a very sobering experience.

I am NOT a Muslim sympathizer but I do consider myself culturally aware and also someone who still has a lot to learn about my fellow man. I would argue that we are at war with people who have perverted Islam to justify and FINANCE their evil acts.

I think you need to do some more reading about the Islamic world and their historical war with non-Muslims.

TR

nmap
11-22-2009, 19:05
Okay. Islam, All Islam is bad. I think I finally get that. Not just bad but irreconcilably, irretrievably, uncompromisingly bad.
So what do we do now since Islam is the world's second largest religion after Christianity, according to a 2009 demographic study there are 1.57 billion adherents, comprising 23% of the world population?[wiki]

While you make a good point, I cannot help wondering at the answer if we adjust the question. Let us suppose that Islam represents a set of beliefs strongly at variance with our own. So strongly that one set of beliefs must ultimately destroy the other - and with variance such that mutual acceptance and coexistence are not achievable.

Do we not come to the same conclusion?

And you mention that 1.57 billion. Please suppose, for the moment, the possibility that we really are in a state of population overshoot - one that will, at some indeterminable point in the future, revert to the mean. How will the west - largely older and with fewer children - fare against Islamic states with a young population and lots of children? Will all those young people stay in place, or will they migrate in mass?

Jared Diamond, in Collapse, examined a small-scale example in Central America about 900 years ago. As I recall, the casualty rate was 99%.

Do we not ignore such possibilities at our peril?