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Interesting turn of events in NY Distrcit 23!!!
Official: "Owens Will Have to Be Removed"
Northern NY News
Written by Nathan Barker
Thursday, 12 November 2009 11:29
GOUVERNEUR, NY - Despite the fact that Bill Owens has already been sworn-in and has voted on crucial legislation in the House of Representatives, he may not have actually won the NY-23 Congressional Special Election.
Several errors were made during the initial vote counts. Over 2,000 votes for contender Doug Hoffman were not counted in the preliminary results, narrowing the current vote gap to less than 3,000 votes between Democrat Bill Owens and Conservative Doug Hoffman.
The errors were discovered during the standard vote recanvas that has been underway since November 4th. The largest error occurred in Oswego County where the vote recanvas found a discrepancy of more than 1,200 votes in Doug Hoffman's favor. Another error, in Jefferson County contributed an additional 700 votes in Hoffman's favor during the recount.
The election was close enough even on election night that the New York State Board of Elections was unable to present a "clear decision" in the race according to John Conklin, Communications Director for the department. He said that the Board sent a letter to the Clerk of the House of Representatives in Washington indicating that they could not yet determine a winner and could therefore not certify the election until after the recanvas and absentee ballot count. Those final numbers will not be available until at least mid-December.
Nancy Pelosi was only able to legally swear-in Bill Owens because Doug Hoffman had conceded the election, indicating that he did not contest the initial, and now shown erroneous, results, something he may not have done if he had been aware of how close the election was.
Mr. Hoffman told the Gouverneur Times that he felt at the time that he "was being a good sport" in doing so. With 93% of the polls in and counted and a margin of over 5,000 votes in favor of Owens, he felt he had lost the election. He now says that "while hindsight is 20/20, if I had known it was that close, I probably would have waited."
Bill Owens was sworn in 2 days later and proceeded to vote in favor of Pelosi's health care bill the following day. While Mr. Hoffman feels that deliberately contesting the results of the election to prevent Owens' deciding vote in the Health Care bill would "not have been very sportsmanlike," and that he, personally, would not like to see a politician manipulate events in that manner, he also indicated that the good of the American people and the citizens of the 23rd district would have weighed in on that decision as well.
As it stands now, Bill Owens may be in Washington and voting the Pelosi Party line but when the vote is certified he may be ousted. The state Board of Elections indicated that "...all ballots will be counted, and if the result changes, Owens will have to be removed." Concession speech or not, if the voters in the 23rd District elected Doug Hoffman and not Bill Owens, then Hoffman will be the Representative.
There are currently over 10,000 uncounted absentee ballots, many of which were in the military where a strongly conservative bias exists. Given the narrow margin of Owens' lead at this time, it's entirely possible that this race could still swing for Hoffman.
Sources indicate that the Democrats would not have had the votes to pass the Health bill if Owens had not been sworn-in and pledged his support for it. Several other Representatives have indicated that they would not have cast their votes in favor of the bill if they were not certain that it had the votes to win.
Well, well! Great news, Afchic. Thank you!
longrange1947
11-12-2009, 20:40
The Dims will not allow it. :munchin
The Dims will not allow it. :munchin
May not have a choice. If it is found that 10K ballots from overseas troops weren't counted, in a heavily conservative area, they wouldn't be able to stand the heat.
kimberly
11-13-2009, 09:39
So that should render the vote on the health bill moot and it will have to be done over.
Obama will start stuttering again and Pelosi will have to sit down and be quiet.
It will also wipe the smirk off the dems faces.
This is an excellent lesson in why you DON'T EVER QUIT! What is up with pols conceeding elections lately? Its not like hanging in there until the last vote is counted takes any more effort than quitting at the first sign of trouble.
kimberly
11-13-2009, 16:45
This is an excellent lesson in why you DON'T EVER QUIT! What is up with pols conceeding elections lately? Its not like hanging in there until the last vote is counted takes any more effort than quitting at the first sign of trouble.
Interesting turn of events in NY Distrcit 23!!!
Mr. Hoffman told the Gouverneur Times that he felt at the time that he "was being a good sport" in doing so. With 93% of the polls in and counted and a margin of over 5,000 votes in favor of Owens, he felt he had lost the election. He now says that "while hindsight is 20/20, if I had known it was that close, I probably would have waited."
Bill Owens was sworn in 2 days later and proceeded to vote in favor of Pelosi's health care bill the following day. While Mr. Hoffman feels that deliberately contesting the results of the election to prevent Owens' deciding vote in the Health Care bill would "not have been very sportsmanlike," and that he, personally, would not like to see a politician manipulate events in that manner, he also indicated that the good of the American people and the citizens of the 23rd district would have weighed in on that decision as well.
I agree.
Hoffman seems concerned about sportsmanship, but even when the little league team is down by 20 runs, kids are taught to play out the game in the name of sportsmanship.
...but even when the little league team is down by 20 runs, kids are taught to play out the game in the name of sportsmanship.
Actually, in the leagues I coached or helped out with, there was a ten run "slaughter" rule...seems to be where folks get the notion that surrendering early is sporting...personally, I don't think candidates should concede until all the votes are counted...there is no sportsmanship involved...they should ignore the pundits and all the folks seeking instant gratification who want a result before they head off to bed...the news outlets that call elections before all the votes are counted are doing nothing but boosting their ratings...
So that should render the vote on the health bill moot and it will have to be done over.Why? Based on what precedent or interpretation of Rule XX do you base this argument?What is up with pols conceding elections lately? Its not like hanging in there until the last vote is counted takes any more effort than quitting at the first sign of trouble.
Personally, I don't think candidates should concede until all the votes are counted...there is no sportsmanship involved...they should ignore the pundits and all the folks seeking instant gratification who want a result before they head off to bed...the news outlets that call elections before all the votes are counted are doing nothing but boosting their ratings...My take is that conceding an election while the counting of votes is in process is a tribute to the "Revolution of 1800." By conceding on the night of the election, a losing candidate starts at the earliest moment the process of reunifying the political landscape.
(And I think Mr. Hoffman was taking a dig at Mr. Franken and Mr. Gore for their behavior in recent electoral disputes.)
My $0.02.
kimberly
11-13-2009, 17:41
Why? Based on what precedent or interpretation of Rule XX do you base this argument?
My $0.02.
If Owens is not the legitimate office holder, his vote should not count leaving a hole that needs to be filled by the rightful victor.
If Owens is not the legitimate office holder, his vote should not count leaving a hole that needs to be filled by the rightful victor.The question remains unanswered.
Do you have in mind specific rules of the House of Representatives or precedents to support your argument not only that a sitting representative's vote should be discounted but also that his replacement--who, as pointed out in the article, conceded--should be allowed to vote?
Fiercely Loyal
11-13-2009, 18:39
Nancy Pelosi was only able to legally swear-in Bill Owens because Doug Hoffman had conceded the election, indicating that he did not contest the initial, and now shown erroneous, results, something he may not have done if he had been aware of how close the election was.
concede:to accept as true, valid, or accurate
It seems to me that if you are to concede that would be the same as dropping out of the race. So even if you are later to be found the person with the most votes you still dropped out making the person who you conceded to the primary office holder.
I want Pelosi care gone but I would have to get a better explanation to understand how pulling Owens out is legal if Hoffman conceded.
longrange1947
11-13-2009, 20:55
concede:to accept as true, valid, or accurate
It seems to me that if you are to concede that would be the same as dropping out of the race. So even if you are later to be found the person with the most votes you still dropped out making the person who you conceded to the primary office holder.
I want Pelosi care gone but I would have to get a better explanation to understand how pulling Owens out is legal if Hoffman conceded.
So Gore conceding should have meant that the recount upon recount should not have happen? :munchin
So Gore conceding should have meant that the recount upon recount should not have happen? :munchinIIRC, Mr. Gore called "mulligan" and unconceded his concession. When you do stuff like invent the internet and find a cure for global warming in which you can still heat your mansion, fly in private jets, and talk about yourself endlessly, you all sorts of rights and privileges and can thumb your nose at your nation's political history. :rolleyes:
Is there a formal process of conceding in state and federal elections?
If the outcome of the state election and the House vote were reversed would we be as open to the possibility of changing the outcome of either contest?
concede:to accept as true, valid, or accurate
It seems to me that if you are to concede that would be the same as dropping out of the race. So even if you are later to be found the person with the most votes you still dropped out making the person who you conceded to the primary office holder.
I want Pelosi care gone but I would have to get a better explanation to understand how pulling Owens out is legal if Hoffman conceded.
The media has focused so much on the rise and fall of political parties that we tend to look at the wrong target quite often. Who did the people elect?
I see no reason that the person receiving the most votes isn't the elected official. What one politician says to another is of less interest.
Fiercely Loyal
11-14-2009, 00:35
The media has focused so much on the rise and fall of political parties that we tend to look at the wrong target quite often. Who did the people elect?
I see no reason that the person receiving the most votes isn't the elected official. What one politician says to another is of less interest.
I do not see your point clearly. If you quit, drop out, or publicly accept defeat no matter how prematurely, how can you change your mind and try to get that position back? I do not believe that is his intentions. Just asking if it is even legit.
The media has focused so much on the rise and fall of political parties that we tend to look at the wrong target quite often. Who did the people elect?Do voters support the candidate or the candidate's party?:confused:
Do voters support the candidate or the candidate's party?:confused:
A good question - but it is the American voting public - has anyone checked their Ouija board lately for an answer to that one? :rolleyes:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I do not see your point clearly. If you quit, drop out, or publicly accept defeat no matter how prematurely, how can you change your mind and try to get that position back? I do not believe that is his intentions. Just asking if it is even legit.
At my age, clarity is the state of mind that occurs after the third cup of coffee and lasts for about an hour. :D
The above words (not the part about coffee) demonstrates what I am saying about our (the generic public) becoming so involved in the contest between parties and candidates, that we forget the parties are irrelevant, and the candidates are irrelevant.
Only WE can put a candidate in a seat to represent us.
We own the position. No candidate can give it to another person by any word or action if it is OURS.
It's like two individuals arguing over who is going to work for me in any job.
I decide.
At my age, clarity is the state of mind that occurs after the third cup of coffee and lasts for about an hour. :D
The above words (not the part about coffee) demonstrates what I am saying about our (the generic public) becoming so involved in the contest between parties and candidates, that we forget the parties are irrelevant, and the candidates are irrelevant.
Only WE can put a candidate in a seat to represent us.
We own the position. No candidate can give it to another person by any word or action if it is OURS.
It's like two individuals arguing over who is going to work for me in any job.
I decide.
But. You can not vote in a guy who does not want it. If he quit before the vote is in (in a two way race) then the other guy wins.
longrange1947
11-15-2009, 20:58
But. You can not vote in a guy who does not want it. If he quit before the vote is in (in a two way race) then the other guy wins.
My problem with this statement and some of the others saying the same is that the info he used in his decision was wrong and possibly tainted. He graciously conceded what he thought was a lost race due to incorrect info. This then nulls and voids his concession in my eyes.
To keep this line of thought, then the MSM could then use bogus numbers to taint outcomes by making it seem that one is winning to get the other to concede. Thus installing whom they wish to win. Similar to the lack of serious reporting on Obama until recently and then only sporadically.
Again, he conceded based on bogus info, thus a bogus concession. :munchin
But. You can not vote in a guy who does not want it. If he quit before the vote is in (in a two way race) then the other guy wins.
I think there's a mile of difference between concession ---- "Looks like you've won, congratulations".
and "I decided I don't want the office".
Remember, we could write "Attila the Hun" on the ballot, and if he were alive, the seat would be his.
Considering the last elections, it wouldn't have been a bad idea. :rolleyes:
My problem with this statement and some of the others saying the same is that the info he used in his decision was wrong and possibly tainted. He graciously conceded what he thought was a lost race due to incorrect info. This then nulls and voids his concession in my eyes.
To keep this line of thought, then the MSM could then use bogus numbers to taint outcomes by making it seem that one is winning to get the other to concede. Thus installing whom they wish to win. Similar to the lack of serious reporting on Obama until recently and then only sporadically.
Again, he conceded based on bogus info, thus a bogus concession. :munchin
Why would any right leaning human listen to the MSM?
Why would any right leaning human listen to the MSM?
As the old saying goes:
Keep your friends close.
Keep your enemies closer..
As the old saying goes:
While I agree 100% with that statement. I was referring to the assertion that the candidate let the MSM reporting dictate his actions. If I was running for office I would have hired at least one professional political operative with election night experience to help my decision making. Doug Hoffman had major political and celebrity weight backing him he did not lack help nor advise.
This bundle of "absentee ballots" that turns up uncounted at the very end of the night in some election is odd (I really want to call shenanigans on them but lack proof or desire to get flambed here for stating it more them parenthetically) to me. My sister in law is is a council member in a small suburb of LA. On election day last week as soon as the polls closed the absentee numbers were posted, The election board has the absentee ballots for weeks prior to election day, so to my simple and often wrong way of thinking it would not be that much trouble to have them staged to be counted first, then as the ballots from around the districts/precincts/wards/burrows come in they get counted and added to the tally.
longrange1947
11-16-2009, 13:26
Why would any right leaning human listen to the MSM?
Don't ask me, but it happens all the time, along with the accompaning pressure. :munchin
Who decides whether or not a Senator or a Representative shall be seated? the Senate and the House do:
Article I, Section 5, Constitution of the United States:
"Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, ..."
So now having seated Mr. Owens, with the express or implied agreement of Mr. Hofman, the House itself can refuse to seat any other representative from the sending state.