View Full Version : How do you do it?
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 11:33
What's your technique and why?
Roguish Lawyer
07-19-2004, 12:05
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
What's your technique and why?
I do what my instructor tells me to do. If I am not doing it, it is because I am dumb. LOL
Sacamuelas
07-19-2004, 12:07
My preference: Over the top, weak handed.
As I was taught by an old Army vet. Allows me to maintain stronghanded "normal" grip on weapon while racking, can catch ejected round if clearing weapon, and it feels more natural as I train to reload the weapon with off hand while maintaining same position with pistol in my grip.
Roguish Lawyer
07-19-2004, 12:09
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Or is this thread only for people with 500,000+ rounds fired? ;) HAHA
Feeling pretty froggy today, eh, doctor? LMAO
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 12:10
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Feeling pretty froggy today, eh, doctor? LMAO
Ain't he though...:munchin
Roguish Lawyer
07-19-2004, 12:30
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Ain't he though...:munchin
Sacamuelas
07-19-2004, 12:35
.
Depends on if it's a tactical-vs-combat reload to include some types of malfunction.
TAP-RACK- BANG(squeeze).
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 12:43
Originally posted by Guy
Depends on if it's a tactical-vs-combat reload to include some types of malfunction.
TAP-RACK- BANG(squeeze).
Good point Guy. If you go over the top, its pretty much the same movements as for IA on a stoppage, which running out of ammo basically is, a type of stoppage. The other thing is, going over the top is gross motor, where as the release is more fine. And Mr. Harsey already explained what happens to fine motor skills under stress.
Smokin Joe
07-19-2004, 12:47
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
...As I was taught by an old Army vet. Allows me to maintain stronghanded "normal" grip on weapon while racking, can catch ejected round if clearing weapon,...
Be very careful with this if the round moves in the chamber while you are moving the slide to the rear, the ejector can hit the primer and send that round into your weak hand.
Its best if you rack the slide and let the bullet fall to the ground.
Unless you don't need all of your digits. :)
Generally use the over the top method, occasionally, depending on the weapon, I like the slide release.
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 12:52
I just saw that "catch the round thing".
Saca, you ever do that on a range I'm running, your chest will be bigger than the Governator of Kalifornia's from all the 8 count pushups you'll be doing.
I hate that shit.
Sacamuelas
07-19-2004, 12:57
Roger Sarn't.
(Btw- good catch Joe. My fingers, family, and career counselor thank you)
Over the top weak hand.
This technique in my opinion has proven to be more effective simply because if you do have a stoppage that is protruding from the barrel, the over the top weak hand technique, allows you to clear the stoppage in one sweep and keep the weapon pointed on target. Plus this technique minimizes any part of your hand being caught in the slide action. Just my 2euros worth.
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 14:46
Well, I think the slide release is faster.:munchin
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Well, I think the slide release is faster.:munchin
Then Why didn't you vote for it?:munchin
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 15:34
I haven't voted yet.
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I haven't voted yet.
Fair enough
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Well, I think the slide release is faster.:munchin
Are we voting on how we rack the slide on a fresh mag, not locked back, or are we voting on how we release the locked slide on a fresh mag?
I pull from the back, generally unless I have my weak hand occupied then I go for the slide release....
METT-T? ;)
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 16:30
release from locked back after a mag change.
You use METT-T to release your slide?
Sure, I have METT-T written on my glove in black marker.
:)
The Reaper
07-19-2004, 16:36
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
release from locked back after a mag change.
You use METT-T to release your slide?
Slide release, strong hand.
TR
Team Sergeant
07-19-2004, 17:19
Originally posted by The Reaper
Slide release, strong hand.
TR
Agreed, its the best method.
magician
07-19-2004, 17:31
Sorry to nitpick, but the poll is poorly worded.
To "rack it," in my opinion, would be asking how you lock your slide to the rear, or how you cycle the slide to clear a stoppage.
I use weak hand, over the top, just like I was taught on the M1911 long ago at SOT.
To release the slide after dropping an empty mag and replacing it with a full mag, I hit the slide release with my strong hand, again, just as I was taught.
Funny.....thinking back on it, John Bone was running the joint back then. The next time that I saw him, he was the sergeant major at USAJFKSWC, or was it SOCOM? I forget. The poor guy was HATED.
NousDefionsDoc
07-19-2004, 17:35
Originally posted by magician
Sorry to nitpick, but the poll is poorly worded.
To "rack it," in my opinion, would be asking how you lock your slide to the rear, or how you cycle the slide to clear a stoppage.
I use weak hand, over the top, just like I was taught on the M1911 long ago at SOT.
To release the slide after dropping an empty mag and replacing it with a full mag, I hit the slide release with my strong hand, again, just as I was taught.
Funny.....thinking back on it, John Bone was running the joint back then. The next time that I saw him, he was the sergeant major at USAJFKSWC, or was it SOCOM? I forget. The poor guy was HATED.
Well, exxxxcccuuuusssseee me! LOL:boohoo
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Well, I think the slide release is faster.:munchin
Didnt read the ENTIRE forum. Push-ups done TS.
Normally I try not to lock out. I usually count my shots leaving one in the pipe then do a magazine change. If I do lock out then of course I would utilize the slide release. I was refering to a drill in the case of a malfunction. Sorry TS now can I have some of your popcorn:)
L5
swatsurgeon
07-20-2004, 08:06
not to jump on anyone's reply......but a) isn't it a support hand, there should be no weak hands in shooting and b) anyway that keeps you in the fight that works for you everytime and then for the exception have that scenerio worked out so it becomes the 'everytime'
Just my 2 cents........
T-2
just tell me to keep my ideas to myself and go back and play doctor.........
Smokin Joe
07-20-2004, 08:09
Originally posted by The Reaper
Slide release, strong hand.
TR
I know you guys aren't Glock shooters; but don't do this with a Glock it will break the slide stop leaver.
I would love to be able to use the slide release but being a lefty so I'm stuck with the weak hand rack.
NousDefionsDoc
07-20-2004, 08:19
Originally posted by larfive
Didnt read the ENTIRE forum. Push-ups done TS.
Normally I try not to lock out. I usually count my shots leaving one in the pipe then do a magazine change. If I do lock out then of course I would utilize the slide release. I was refering to a drill in the case of a malfunction. Sorry TS now can I have some of your popcorn:)
L5
I'm not the Team Sergeant, "just" the Senior Medic.
SWAT Surgeon - I agree, if it works, it works.
Joe - I haven't had any problems with that, or even heard of it. Not doubting your experience though.
Team Sergeant
07-20-2004, 08:25
A few notes here,
swatSurgeon, many techniques will work, some are just more efficient than others. While it might be nice to have both hands equal, there’s always going to be a “weak” hand.
Smoking Joe, I’d never slam a slide on an empty chamber, this can cause damage to a handgun, on the other hand, I always slam the slide shut with the slide release to load the handgun. This ensures proper bullet seating every time. If the gun cannot handle it, then its time for a new gun.
On proper gun handling never “ride” the slide forward when loading a round, this can cause the round not to seat properly. This also takes up waaaay too much time, time I’m not wasting in a gunfight.
Sorry to hear the lefty problems you’re encountering woth the Glock, I use HK USP’s for all serious work, and even if I were lefty everything on a HK can be switched to the other side.:D
TS
The Reaper
07-20-2004, 09:03
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
I know you guys aren't Glock shooters; but don't do this with a Glock it will break the slide stop leaver.
I would love to be able to use the slide release but being a lefty so I'm stuck with the weak hand rack.
I have never heard of a breakage by using the slide stop to drop the slide with a loaded mag in the weapon. If it did, Glock would have some explaining to do.
Dropping the slide on an empty chamber/no mag is a bad idea on any pistol, and will ruin a 1911 trigger job. My gunsmith used to tell me to ride it down by hand, or release the slide with the trigger pulled. I could not bring myself to put my finger on the trigger when not engaging a target, so I just accustomed myself to releasing the slide by hand and riding it down on an empty chamber. On a reload, I use the slide release.
TR
Smokin Joe
07-20-2004, 09:12
Gentlemen,
I got it from the source when I went to the Glock Armorer's School in May.
I have yet to see one break myself but Glock say's "Rack the slide, do not use the slide stop lever. B/C it will break"
There words not mine I'm just trying to pass the info along.
TS,
I'm a huge HK fan myself but I can't carry one at work. So I only have a P7M8. If things work out maybe I will be able to carry one soon. :)
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Gentlemen,
I got it from the source when I went to the Glock Armorer's School in May.
I have yet to see one break myself but Glock say's "Rack the slide, do not use the slide stop lever. B/C it will break"
There words not mine I'm just trying to pass the info along.
I shot the rails off of my G17! Never had a problem with the slide release/lock nor have the students I have taught.:munchin
TS/ Reaper,
What causes the damage if the slide closes on an empty chamber? Or maybe a better way to phrase the question is what is it about the cartridge that prevents damage to the pistol when the round is chambered? Just trying to visualize what's going on inside the firearm.
Smokin Joe
Thanks for the advice. Just picked up a somewhat used G17 from a buddy last week so I'll need to keep it in mind.
The Reaper
07-23-2004, 19:43
Originally posted by gryphon
TS/ Reaper,
What causes the damage if the slide closes on an empty chamber? Or maybe a better way to phrase the question is what is it about the cartridge that prevents damage to the pistol when the round is chambered? Just trying to visualize what's going on inside the firearm.
It takes energy from the forward momentum of the slide to strip a round from the mag, and feed it into the chamber.
That slows it down and reduces the impact of internal parts considerably.
TR
It takes energy from the forward momentum of the slide to strip a round from the mag, and feed it into the chamber.
Reaper,
I see what you're saying. I'm thinking this also explains the injunction against loading a round into the chamber and dropping the slide on it. When I first read the TS's comments my first thought was the friction of the round in the chamber was slowing the slide down, but that didn't make much sense. The friction of the round being held in place by the mag spring makes much more sense. Thanks for your reply.
The Reaper
07-23-2004, 20:18
Originally posted by gryphon
Reaper,
I'm thinking this also explains the injunction against loading a round into the chamber and dropping the slide on it.
No, I think that has more to do with 1) inertial firing pins and 2) forcing the extractor over the rim of the round, rather than it catching the round from underneath as it slides in from the mag.
TR
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Well, I think the slide release is faster.:munchin
The professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive right handed shooters all use left hand thumb manipulation of the slide release during slide lock two handed reloads as the fastest technique to maximize economy of movement and resulting split times to resume engagement of targets.
Reloading from slide lock with only one functional appendage is another matter, and constitutes a dedicated CF at best under stress or not.
Originally posted by APLP
The professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive right handed shooters all use left hand thumb manipulation of the slide release during slide lock two handed reloads as the fastest technique to maximize economy of movement and resulting split times to resume engagement of targets.
Reloading from slide lock with only one functional appendage is another matter, and constitutes a dedicated CF at best under stress or not.
Are you saying "It is quicker to manipulate the slide release with your non-firing hand while doing a reload"?
Originally posted by Guy
Are you saying "It is quicker to manipulate the slide release with your non-firing hand while doing a reload"?
Yes, at least in the competative shooting sports, the fastest reload techninique is to manipulates the slide release with the non-firing hand when reloading from slide lock.
Team Sergeant
07-26-2004, 09:22
Originally posted by APLP
Yes, at least in the competative shooting sports, the fastest reload techninique is to manipulates the slide release with the non-firing hand when reloading from slide lock.
I can "see" that technique working. I bet it works great in a “game” setting.
Something else to remember Guy and APLP, most of the professional shooters never started in the military. Their mindset is also different, in the military we do not have the luxury of taking our eyes off our intended targets, the professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive shooters don’t have anyone shooting back at them and can afford not to employ any tactics while competing in their games.
Just keep in mind the professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive shooters compete in a “game competition” where the outcome is always the same, no one gets hurt. While speed and accuracy are wonderful, shitty tactics will get one very dead in our world.
TS
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I can "see" that technique working. I bet it works great in a “game” setting.
Something else to remember Guy and APLP, most of the professional shooters never started in the military. Their mindset is also different, in the military we do not have the luxury of taking our eyes off our intended targets, the professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive shooters don’t have anyone shooting back at them and can afford not to employ any tactics while competing in their games.
Just keep in mind the professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive shooters compete in a “game competition” where the outcome is always the same, no one gets hurt. While speed and accuracy are wonderful, shitty tactics will get one very dead in our world.
TS
In my humble opinion, your comments are spot on.
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I can "see" that technique working. I bet it works great in a “game” setting.
Something else to remember Guy and APLP, most of the professional shooters never started in the military. Their mindset is also different, in the military we do not have the luxury of taking our eyes off our intended targets, the professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive shooters don’t have anyone shooting back at them and can afford not to employ any tactics while competing in their games.
Just keep in mind the professional IPSC and industry IDPA competitive shooters compete in a “game competition” where the outcome is always the same, no one gets hurt. While speed and accuracy are wonderful, shitty tactics will get one very dead in our world.
TS
Can I get an AMEN!!:D
I rotate the pistol 90 degrees to my left, Thumb and Index on slide serrations. I used to go over the top, but like the slingshot better.
P
bberkley
08-06-2004, 16:40
If its one of my Glocks, I usually am inserting a fresh mag with sufficient force to drop the slide. I rarely ever shoot to slide lock when competing in USPSA matches in Production Division. I shoot based on the way the COF is laid out, and plan my reloads.
With my STI, I pinch the rear of the slide as I was taught that way many years ago. I do the Glocks the same way when I initially load them prior to beginning a course of fire. I've not had an opportunity yet to attend a Defensive or Combat Handgun course, as I expect the weak-hand over the top is what is taught.
Many of the folks I shoot with use the weak-hand over the top, but I've seen lots of shooters come close to sweeping their weak hand in front of the muzzle when attempting to do that. Most of the LEO guys and some of the guys who have attended formal training use the weak-hand over the top method for stoppage clearance/reloading.
I usually make it a point to keep my parts away from the dangerous end.
I know several guys (RH) that use their weak-hand thumb to drop the slide via the slide release after a reload so they don't break their strong-hand grip.
On a side note, here is a link to a video of Travis Tomasie (he shoots with the AMU now) practicing reloading an Open racegun.
http://www.doublealpha.biz/images/travis_reload.mpg
Endorphin Rush
08-08-2004, 18:14
Rack/release slide over the top with support/weak hand always...... why?????
1. gross motor skill
2. universal method for all occasions/occurrences...less confusion
3. much stronger method of racking slide/releasing slide
4. economy of motion ... = speed
5. less manipulation of weapon with strong hand while reaching for slide release lever (OK, I've got short fingers)
6. sometimes, even when you're counting your rounds, the slide does not lock back on an empty mag. You've got to rack it now, somehow, to insert a round into chamber. I am in the habit of racking it even after slide lock for those times in the dark when I can not see that It truly did not lock back as it should. Nothing worse that hitting that slilde release lever only to hear "click" instead of "kaboom". Or atleast seeing only darkness instead of muzzle flash.
***I, too, have shot Glocks and, although I've never had a slide lock lever break, I have fumbled with them while trying to release a locked-back slide (atleast until I got the tactical slide lock lever installed)
NousDefionsDoc
08-08-2004, 18:47
Who here counts rounds?
Endorphin Rush
08-09-2004, 02:16
I thought someone had previously stated that they count their rounds and always reload with one in the chamber???????????????
NousDefionsDoc
08-09-2004, 08:59
No, I'm asking. "Who here counts rounds?"
brownapple
08-09-2004, 09:03
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Who here counts rounds?
Thought that is what tracers were for... ;)
Team Sergeant
08-09-2004, 09:06
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
No, I'm asking. "Who here counts rounds?"
Coming in or going out?
NousDefionsDoc
08-09-2004, 09:28
Going out.
Team Sergeant
08-09-2004, 09:33
I don't count rounds when I have more than one weapon and if you find me in combat you will find me with more than one weapon.
TS
NousDefionsDoc
08-09-2004, 09:39
This is just my opinion, but I think there is enough to worry about without trying to remember how many rounds one has fired. Much more important to constantly re-assess the tactical situation.
And what difference does it make? One is going to shoot until the engagement is over or they run out anyway.
I find it hard to believe that people can accurately do this in combat. I guess there are those that can.
Now I will count remaining magazines every now and then from behind cover.:D
The Reaper
08-09-2004, 09:43
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
This is just my opinion, but I think there is enough to worry about without trying to remember how many rounds one has fired. Much more important to constantly re-assess the tactical situation.
And what difference does it make? One is going to shoot until the engagement is over or they run out anyway.
I find it hard to believe that people can accurately do this in combat. I guess there are those that can.
Now I will count remaining magazines every now and then from behind cover.:D
Exactly.
I cannot reliably count down a 15 or 30 round mag under stress with everything else that is going on. Some may be able to.
IMHO, I prefer to practice reloading quickly, check ammo status when the tactical situation permits, and try not to move out from cover without having topped off.
Others may be more talented in this area.
TR
Originally posted by Endorphin Rush
I thought someone had previously stated that they count their rounds and always reload with one in the chamber???????????????
You must be writing about.
Trying to concentrate on the "front sight" is difficult, much less counting rounds.
Originally posted by bberkley
http://www.doublealpha.biz/images/travis_reload.mpg
Don't get me wrong, he is good, however...he needs to do this wearing the gear we wear.:D
Peregrino
08-09-2004, 21:14
Good thread. For slide lock "hot" reloads I use the slide stop. For everything else I use weak hand sweep. That includes cold loads and IA drills (usually some type of stoppage). Other contributers have already expounded adequately on the reasons why (TR, TS, etc.). It all comes back to training and building "muscle memory". When I first attended SOT, guys like Poole, Adams, Young, and the rest of the miscreants at Mott Lake took seriously the mission of passing along their experiences, something I've had reason to be grateful for several times since. On the matter of technique, I'm a southpaw and I've never had a problem using my index (trigger) finger to manipulate the slide stop or the magazine release. I usually have to shift my grip but I've learned to live with it. The only ambi accessory I use is the safety. I tried changing over the mag release on the Berretta but found it difficult to overcome years of muscle memory so I switched back. Besides, there's not much sense in learning a new technique for each weapon. Kind of defeats the purpose for all that muscle memory stuff.
We always give lip service to the saying "Train the way you fight because you'll fight the way you train." Recent combat experiences are reinforcing the truth of that statement. Here's my soapbox on a couple of things that have surfaced on this thread. When it comes to counting bullets - not on your life. It works great on the range and I still find myself doing it there ocassionally but it's a bad habit and I try to train with drills that don't allow me to anticipate running dry. Having to ID the threat, find the front sight, put it where it's supposed to be, squeeze the trigger, and then find the next threat is difficult enough. When it quits going BANG, find cover and fix the problem if you can (doesn't matter if it's out of ammo or a stoppage - it's the same thing - a problem). If you can't find cover then keep moving and transition, 2nd choice reload/conduct IA drill (while moving). In any event get back in the fight. The same thing goes for the "catch the round" stunt, or - just as bad - the catch the empty magazine stunt. Both of them waste time/motion, encourage fumbling, and are potentially fatal in a tactical environment. That's stuff you do on an admin target range that'll get you killed in real life. (Check the FBI stats for stories about police officers found dead with expended brass in their pocket - something they learned to do during annual quals on the range. Got to love the stats, they provide wonderful object lessons for just about every fatal stupidity you can imagine - and most of them are the result of somebody doing in a gunfight what they trained to do under admin conditions!) As for retaining/catching mags - if you're reloading behind cover, you have the luxury of saving mags, after all if you're just topping off, they'll probably still have a few rounds left you might need later. Otherwise, drop them! If it's a running battle, the winner will police the battlefield - if that's not you, it won't matter if you're short a couple mags when you report to the Pearly Gates!
For those of you with access to it, check out the new SFAUC manual. It is the latest doctrine and it covers all of these basic skills in detail, complete with a training plan. It was designed for trainers and teams. The primary philosophy is KISS and drill the basics. The guy who had the overall responsibility for rewriting it did a conscientious job and all of us who helped are proud of the results. Nuff said. FWIW that's my .02 cents, sorry about the bandwidth but it's an important soapbox with all the guys we have in harm's way nowdays. YIS - Peregrino
The Reaper
04-26-2005, 21:30
On a side note, here is a link to a video of Travis Tomasie (he shoots with the AMU now) practicing reloading an Open racegun.
http://www.doublealpha.biz/images/travis_reload.mpg
I met him yesterday.
Very nice young man.
TR
bberkley
04-26-2005, 23:02
I met him yesterday.
Very nice young man.
TR
Did you get to see him shoot, Sir?
The Reaper
04-27-2005, 07:49
Did you get to see him shoot, Sir?
Nope, 'fraid not, we were in the Headquarters.
Maybe next time.
I told him that we enjoyed the video and that he was pretty good.
TR
On the extractor issue, when you are preparing to carry a 1911 in Condition 1, is the proper technique to:
1. Insert a full mag
2. Thumb the slide release
3. Drop the mag and top it off
4. Reinsert the mag?
I was taught not to drop a round directly into the chamber before releasing the slide, as it may cause the extractor to break at a bad time. However, I was also told by someone recently not to top off my mags and reinsert with a round in the chamber. Any truth to that? :munchin
Peregrino
04-27-2005, 08:48
On the extractor issue, when you are preparing to carry a 1911 in Condition 1, is the proper technique to:
1. Insert a full mag
2. Thumb the slide release
3. Drop the mag and top it off
4. Reinsert the mag?
I was taught not to drop a round directly into the chamber before releasing the slide, as it may cause the extractor to break at a bad time. However, I was also told by someone recently not to top off my mags and reinsert with a round in the chamber. Any truth to that? :munchin
I agree with not dropping a round into the chamber - It's a safety issue above and beyond potential extractor problems. The round is supposed to slide up the face of the slide and under the extractor lip from the bottom. The extractor was not intended to "snap" over the rim of a cartridge. I can't think of any reason not to top off a quality magazine. It's no different than reloading a full magazine with a round still in the chamber. Just make sure it's properly seated when youre done. Some cheaper mags will have too much pressure against the bottom of the slide to seat properly when full. My .02 - Peregrino
The Reaper
04-27-2005, 09:03
I agree with not dropping a round into the chamber - It's a safety issue above and beyond potential extractor problems. The round is supposed to slide up the face of the slide and under the extractor lip from the bottom. The extractor was not intended to "snap" over the rim of a cartridge. I can't think of any reason not to top off a quality magazine. It's no different than reloading a full magazine with a round still in the chamber. Just make sure it's properly seated when youre done. Some cheaper mags will have too much pressure against the bottom of the slide to seat properly when full. My .02 - Peregrino
Concur.
Sound advice. The admonition not to top off the mag is to reduce the drag on the bottom of the slide when the weapon cycles. After all, it was never designed to cycle with the slide forward on a full mag, but that doesn't mean it won't. If it works in practice, EVERYTIME with your ammo, mags, and weapon, then it should be okay for carry that way.
TR
1. Insert magazine
2. Release slide or run the slide (weak hand over the top of the slide)
3. Press check / chamber check (feel chamber in the dark)
4. Tactical reload (eyes on the threat area)
5. Place partial mag back in the pouch (last position) or top it off
I never use the slide release. No way you'll catch me doing it. Fine motor skills are the first to go when SHTF. Big Dumb movements such as weak hand over or weak handed pinching will prevail.
I have been taught to tap, rap and weak hand pinch grip the slide. I makes sense to still maintain muzzle awareness and be able to pump rounds into an aggressor that is closing the gap. I know that with me it also lowers my center of gravity, and makes it easier/ quicker to get into a wide stance. I do this so it's easier to put the non-firing arm up to block a person with a knife or other head smashing equipment. It gives me enough room in front of the muzzle to still fire without depressing the slide rearward and causing a malfunction.
On the chambering issue. I will only chamber a round from the magazine, safe my weapon and then top off the mag. Most companies advertise the pistol as a mag capacity (whatever the mag capacity is)+1. I do it and it works with my ammo and my pistols.
I'm no expert, just do what I'm told and practice, practice and practice. :lifter
Good thread...... YIS - Peregrino
To expand on the catching the magazine stuff. I know that we all pay good money for magazines (H&K mags are damn expensive) but again I've been taught to not rely on gravity to remove the mag from the magwell. Nothing worse than being in the heat of the moment and not being able to slam the fresh mag home because the old one never made it out. Seconds, even half seconds could cost you dearly. Muscle memory is key, we know it and that's why it's critical to practice those difficult skills repeatedly (not excessively, creates bad habits) and understanding your limits.
I make it a habit on mag changes to hit the mag release, grasp the mag (non-firing hand) and in a fluid movement make a slashing/ stabbing movement past the non-firing side leg and release the mag at the full extent of the movement. Reversing the movement should put you back in a ready position to retrieve a fresh mag. An empty magazine is of no use in a bad situation. If you let gravity do it's job and you drop a fresh magazine in the dark right next to the one that is expended, chances are you'll be so spun up that you won't be able to tell the difference in weight between the two before it's too late.
Practice moving while doing IA drills and reloads. Remember to breathe, in that time that an action occours that you identify as a threat your body will tense and rob your brain of O2. To think clearly you need it. And don't forget that the end of your pistol is a hell of a weapon if things get too tight. :D
I never use the slide release. No way you'll catch me doing it. Fine motor skills are the first to go when SHTF. Big Dumb movements such as weak hand over or weak handed pinching will prevail.
I can think of a few situations where you might not have the option of releasing the slide to chamber a round with a support hand, best to at least be familiar with a single handed slide release technique in IMHO.
I can think of a few situations where you might not have the option of releasing the slide to chamber a round with a support hand, best to at least be familiar with a single handed slide release technique in IMHO.
Understood, but depending on your pistol you can use any protrusion to drop the slide using the rear sight. This is a problem with tritium/novak/meprolight sights. They all lack an edge in which you can catch the rear sight on. Use the pocket/ pocket flap on your rear to do this. If kneeling use the heel of your boot or shoe. The possibilities are not as hard to come by as you'd think. Like I said, know your limits and practice, practice, practice.
My recommendation is to give it a try, use inert training rounds (snap caps) and maintain muzzle awareness when doing so. I can do it with my H&K's, my Sig 229, and my Colt 1991A1. The Kimber is a bit of a challenge but still doable.
Understood, but depending on your pistol you can use any protrusion to drop the slide using the rear sight. This is a problem with tritium/novak/meprolight sights. They all lack an edge in which you can catch the rear sight on. Use the pocket/ pocket flap on your rear to do this. If kneeling use the heel of your boot or shoe. The possibilities are not as hard to come by as you'd think. Like I said, know your limits and practice, practice, practice.
My recommendation is to give it a try, use inert training rounds (snap caps) and maintain muzzle awareness when doing so. I can do it with my H&K's, my Sig 229, and my Colt 1991A1. The Kimber is a bit of a challenge but still doable.
I only meant to respond to your "you'll never catch me", doing a slide stop release manipulation. I am all for gross motor skills and muscle memory, but in the particular scenerio we are discussing it would be stupid in my opinion to overlook just releasing the damn slide release with the firing hand as the weapon is indexed and presented towards the threat. If an individual does not know how to manupulate the slide release with either the firing or non firing hand they surely have one less club in the bag.
Peregrino
04-27-2005, 14:16
OK Guys, I wrote this a couple days ago as part of a lesson plan I'm preparing for work. I am tossing it out here for comment. This is a tried and proven technique. It is ONE OF the techniques I use personally. IT IS NOT A 100% SOLUTION TO ANYTHING!! Nothing is. It is a technique that will serve well in most circumstances. Some of the earlier posts here make very valid points about gravity drops, etc (just one of the reasons I think Glocks are grossly overrated). Input is welcome, just remember - I can't include every "what if" and still have something that can be taught on a range in less than five minutes. If you're feeling bashful, send a PM. My .02 - Peregrino
Shooters must be continuously aware of the amount of ammunition remaining in their weapons. Armed encounters may not be resolved with just the ammunition in the operator’s weapon. Additional immediate threats or follow-on engagements may require the shooter to reload before he can continue his mission. The shooter’s objective is to always have the maximum amount of ammunition available for dealing with any “unexpected” circumstances.
There are two types of reload: under pressure, and not under pressure. Any time you the shooter are at risk of being shot, you are reloading under pressure. The only time a reload counts is when it’s for real. To that end reloads of primary and backup weapons must be “second nature.” In order to reinforce the teaching point, all reloads that you/the students do during this Range Training Session will be performed as if you were “under pressure.” Practice should concentrate on smooth, continuous motion and programming the sequence into muscle memory. Shooters should concentrate on efficiency, striving to achieve the maximum economy of motion.
Use the following procedures when executing a magazine change on the pistol. As soon as the shooter decides to reload (while keeping the weapon oriented towards any perceived threat):
1. With the non-firing hand, reach down to the magazine pouch and grasp one magazine in the pouch. Extract the fresh magazine.
NOTE: If a problem exists in finding the magazine pouch, move the non-firing hand down to the belt and follow it to the pouch.
2. As the fresh magazine clears the pouch, position the index finger of the non-firing hand along the forward edge of the magazine, just below the tip of the bullet. Bring the fresh magazine to the butt of the weapon.
3. As the fresh magazine approaches the weapon use the thumb of the firing hand to depress the magazine release button, at the same time positioning the weapon so that gravity helps the expended magazine drop free.
4. As soon as the empty magazine clears the weapon, while keeping the weapon at eye level, insert the fresh magazine. Use the index finger to guide the magazine into the pistol. If required to facilitate the reload, twist the weapon toward the midsection of the body, keeping the weapon rotated with the magazine well toward the inside.
5. With the palm of the non-firing hand, seat the magazine in the weapon in one motion. Then, if required, disengage the slide stop, keeping the eyes toward the target.
NOTE: Left-handed shooters may use one of two methods to disengage the slide. When using the first method, slip the non-firing hand over the weapon, press the slide stop, and resume normal grip. The problem with this method is that the shooter is not looking at the slide stop and may miss it. When using the second method, grasp the slide with the non-firing hand and pull it to the rear. This action disengages the slide. Then, resume normal grip.
6. Extend the arms to the firing position, confirm a sight picture, and fire.
This technique is intended to be performed BEFORE the slide locks back on an empty magazine. The advantage to reloading with a round in the chamber is obvious – the weapon is never empty. To stay in the fight and be prepared for any contingencies, shooters should start thinking about reloading whenever they have expended approximately 2/3 of the ammunition in their primary weapon. The goal should be for the shooter to anticipate the reload and execute it before it becomes a “life or death” necessity. If the shooter has been monitoring his ammunition expenditure, there should be no more than a few rounds left in the discarded magazine. Let it fall and leave it – concentrate on the fight at hand. If you win the fight, or there is an appreciable lull in the action, you can recover the magazine later. If you lose – it’s no longer your problem! Rule of thumb: As soon as you finish one fight, “top off” before you start another one!
Peregrino
04-27-2005, 22:05
Here's one for the masses! A sanitized (to protect the guilty) PM requesting clarification of an obscure point I made earlier in this thread. (See, we don't laugh - MUCH! :D ) FWIW - Peregrino
---------------------------------------------
Re: Brass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ORIGINAL QUOTE THAT STARTED OUR GUY THINKING: Originally Posted by Peregrino
The same thing goes for the "catch the round" stunt, or - just as bad - the catch the empty magazine stunt. Both of them waste time/motion, encourage fumbling, and are potentially fatal in a tactical environment. That's stuff you do on an admin target range that'll get you killed in real life. (Check the FBI stats for stories about police officers found dead with expended brass in their pocket - something they learned to do during annual quals on the range. ]]]
-------------------------------------------------------
HIS QUESTION: How do they catch expended brass? I'm sorry if this shows my ignorance but I really have no idea. I assume that the fired brass ends up there because the officers put it there? Expended brass ends up in my shirt pocket while I'm at the range all the time. I use a Weaver style stance and I am right handed so when my left hand comes across to the right, it cocks my shirt pocket open and then the extractor sends the brass into the booth wall and it bounces into my shirt pocket. This averages about once in fifty rounds in a dress shirt.
Are these guys picking up brass during a firefight, or actually trying to catch brass as it is extracted? I apologize if this is a dumb question but I have never heard of this kind of stunt
******
------------------------------------------------------------------
MY REPLY: I've never heard of it either. (And you quoted me!) I wish you had included the link to the thread. Your quote is out of context and I don't remember exactly what it was about. I think we were discussing stupid things people do on ranges that carry over into the real world. IIRC it had nothing to do with brass. Back when (most) police officers still used revolvers, they were in the habit of catching the expended rounds when they dumped the cylinder and dropping them in their pants pocket. The "catching the round" that I referred to is not the same thing. When clearing your weapon (a pistol) with a round in the chamber, (I think the context was immediate action drills with a failure to fire or a stovepipe) some (a lot of) people cup their hand over the ejection port to catch the round in the chamber just so they don't have to pick it up off the ground. Makes it easier to check for primer indent, you can stick it back in the magazine, you don't have to find it/pick it up, etc., etc. My point was - people tend to concentrate on meaningless minutia (especially when training on flat ranges) that becomes stupid, sloppy habits that will get them killed on the street. I hope this explains things to your satisfaction. If not - holler, I'll try again. P
P.S. If this answers the question consider putting the whole thing on the original thread in the open forum. I don't mind looking dumb if it'll help clarify the point to somebody else who might be as confused as you were. ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
HIS RESPONSE: It was the "How do you do it thread" http://www.professionalsoldiers.com...read.php?t=2567
Cops with old S&W's makes sense, you know, dumping expended brass into their hands, out of the cylinder and pocketing it. Reading your example of guys catching live rounds as they unchambered a semi, next to cops with empty brass in their pockets just confused my simple mind.
The point about sloppy habits and concentrating on minutia was apparent from context, but I absolutely had to ask because the image of some dipshit yanking the trigger in anticipation of trying to catch the brass, as it is extracted, just brings me to tears.
Additionally, there was the lingering fear that I was doing something horrible, dangerous and just plain wrong because brass ends up in one of my pockets occassionally while I shoot.
This must not be a good day for "understanding" what I read.
I will however laugh at my mental image of a "Kung fu" style range warrior test where the "Firearms Ninja/Priest" says: "When you can snatch the expended brass from the air you will be ready!"
If you want to post it for humor / ignorance feel free, it is sort of funny, but it is mostly me not paying correct attention to detail, and for that I apologize Sir.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This guy deserves a :lifter !! He was holding the weight of the world! Got to love that Rotweiller "wrinkled forehead" look they get when they just can't quite figure something out. And the subsequent look of relief when it becomes clear to them. As for ********** - A little fun at your expense may help somebody else so don't worry about it. There is such a thing as a dumb question - this doesn't quite qualify. Peregrino
P, I don't think you mentioned in your step-by-step whether you intended the shooter to keep the weapon extended during reload, or if he is to pull his weapon hand back toward their torso, while keeping the weapon oriented toward the threat. You did say that after reload the shooter extends his arms to the firing position, so I'm inclined to think you prefer the 'pull the weapon close in' method, but it may be a good idea to spell that out in the instructions.
Peregrino
04-28-2005, 10:08
P, I don't think you mentioned in your step-by-step whether you intended the shooter to keep the weapon extended during reload, or if he is to pull his weapon hand back toward their torso, while keeping the weapon oriented toward the threat. You did say that after reload the shooter extends his arms to the firing position, so I'm inclined to think you prefer the 'pull the weapon close in' method, but it may be a good idea to spell that out in the instructions.
Finally - somebody who wants to play! Razor, thanks I was starting to think I had "killed" the thread. The answer is no, I don't like or use what some people refer to as a "close guard" position while reloading. We have an (experienced) instructor who swears by it and demo's shooting from that position at every opportunity - he's good at what he does, but he's also practiced it to the point of being a circus stunt. I don't believe in what amounts to barely aimed fire. I do retract the pistol somewhat, but this is an issue of ergonomics. (I'm left-handed, I usually have to contort the gun [mess up my grip] a little to manipulate some of the controls - part of the reason I don't own a Sigg, even as much as I like the way they shoot.) To be honest it didn't occur to me that somebody might want to take their attention off the threat which is what usually happens when somebody retracts the weapon all the way during a reload. Observe novice competetive action shooters and you will invariably see them shift focus from threat (extended) to reload (close) and back to threat (extended). I prefer to teach keeping everything in the same "plane", perhaps dropping the pistol slightly to increase field of view, but keeping it where it can be brought back into action as smoothly as possible. When I say "the shooter extends his arms to the firing position" I'm actually saying "get/return to a solid firing platform and engage the threat." Basically - dress your shooting position and pull the trigger.
As an aside/extension of this discussion there are a lot more knowlegeable people writing about combat training. The significant trend (from my perspective) is the shift away from marksmanship and towards mindset. The important thing about this observation is how mindset applies to more than just lethal force encounters. Initial discussions focussed on COL Boyd's OODA Loop (discussions by/from a lot of people who didn't really understand the concept - buzz word of the day - or know how to explain it). Those discussions are now expanding to the point where they are actually useful to students of "personal conflict resolution". An example is the May issue of S.W.A.T. Magazine - the article "Clean Lines" by Scott Reitz. (I love my current job - except for the fact that I can't keep up with the professional reading and still do all the other work I'm supposed to do.) This is just food for thought, hopefully I've chummed the waters and incited a feeding frenzy. (Since I'm busy writing a Force on Force training/lesson plan that will concentrate on taking advantage of the mental game while applying some basic principles of low-light encounters.) Comments anyone? :munchin Peregrino
NousDefionsDoc
04-28-2005, 10:36
I basically agree with Sean. I bring mine back until it meets the mag. Since both hands are moving at the same time, I don't really think about where it is, I just want them to slide together, mate, join in union, intertwine...
Peregrino
04-28-2005, 10:50
I just want them to slide together, mate, join in union, intertwine...
Is that with or without the friction activated, vanilla flavored, massage oil? :D
NousDefionsDoc
04-28-2005, 10:58
Is that with or without the friction activated, vanilla flavored, massage oil? :D
What ever gets the round to the ramp. :cool:
militarymoron
04-28-2005, 11:40
forgot to mention 'why' i when i first voted - i rack it over the top with the weak hand (i'm a lefty) because that works for most of my pistols, regardless of different slide release lever position (like on the 1911 vs P226).
The Reaper
04-28-2005, 12:03
forgot to mention 'why' i when i first voted - i rack it over the top with the weak hand (i'm a lefty) because that works for most of my pistols, regardless of different slide release lever position (like on the 1911 vs P226).
Sound logic.
TR
Smokin Joe
04-28-2005, 14:01
Peregino,
I'm a lefty too....I used to reload with my hands as extended as possible. However, it never felt comfortable to me, so I have since gone to a more fluid reload (its more fluid for me anyways). I feel smoother and more controled in my reloads having the weapon close to my body. But, If this is a Tactical Error SOMEONE PLEASE let me know.
pic 1 is my firing position
pic 2 is my reload position
(Normally I would have blacked out the eyes but I wanted to demonstrate where they were during my reloads)
(Normally I would have blacked out the eyes but I wanted to demonstrate where they were during my reloads)
Watching "Gilmore Girls" on the TV? :D
Peregrino
04-28-2005, 15:19
SJ - This is one of the things I hate about "pontificating to the masses" no insult intended. THERE IS NO 100% SOLUTION!!!! You have obviously made an effective accomodation that meets your requirements. Everybody does, mine just doesn't happen to be as extreme as yours. If it works, refine it until it is glass smooth and completely unconscious in execution. There are only a few principles - they matter, everything else is technique. The principles I push are Threat Orientation, Situational Awareness, Economy of Motion, Mindset, and PRACTICE. Threat orientation - always prepared to engage the percieved threat (that usually means gun up). Situational awareness - never forgetting he may have buddies (don't get tunnel vision). Economy of motion - minimum required movements, maximum use of gross motor skills, slow is smooth & smooth is fast, and muscle memory (some of these concepts are poorly understood and over cited by the average trainer e.g. muscle memory). Mindset - Focus & stay ahead of the other guy (remember Christian charity - it's allways better to give than to recieve!). Practice for perfection - every time. Bottom line - if what you're doing works, dissect it and figure out how to do it better (that usually means smoother), then practice. My .02 - Peregrino
Smokin Joe
04-28-2005, 20:38
Watching "Gilmore Girls" on the TV? :D
Nope I was watching my wifes eye candy get voted off American Idol. :D
Outstanding thread. Lot of good info here.
Personally, I go weak hand (or support hand, whichever you want to call it), over the top. I do it the same for clearing stopages, reloading, or riding the slide down on an empty chamber. Muscle memory, using a gross motor skill.
Counting rounds is something Ive never mastered. I tac reload whenever a lull occurs (a good left over from carrying a single stack). A buddy of mine gets into a shooting (off duty-no spare mag), swears to God he fired three rounds. Homicide takes his weapon, he has one round left (Glock 17) in the mag and one in the pipe. Since that time, he carries a spare, makes a point to practice his scanning (in addition to the obvious, to break his tunnel vision), and his situational awareness seems to be improving. Lesson learned.
One question. I recently changed my duty gun from a M1911 to an HK USP .45. My firing hand is not big enough the hit the mag release with my thumb without changing my firing grip. Ive changed now to using my index finger to manipulate it. Took about 3 weeks of constantly doing reloading drills before it started becoming natural, and Im still doing them during dry fire. Ive been concerned enough about it to even switch my back up/off duty to a USP compact, just to keep continuity between them. Anyone found a better way?
Smokin Joe
04-29-2005, 08:27
One question. I recently changed my duty gun from a M1911 to an HK USP .45. My firing hand is not big enough the hit the mag release with my thumb without changing my firing grip. Ive changed now to using my index finger to manipulate it. Took about 3 weeks of constantly doing reloading drills before it started becoming natural, and Im still doing them during dry fire. Ive been concerned enough about it to even switch my back up/off duty to a USP compact, just to keep continuity between them. Anyone found a better way?
Mac,
Being a lefty I have always used my middle finger to release the mag on my 1911's.
Team Sergeant
04-30-2005, 09:01
Peregino,
I'm a lefty too....I used to reload with my hands as extended as possible. However, it never felt comfortable to me, so I have since gone to a more fluid reload (its more fluid for me anyways). I feel smoother and more controled in my reloads having the weapon close to my body. But, If this is a Tactical Error SOMEONE PLEASE let me know.
pic 1 is my firing position
pic 2 is my reload position
(Normally I would have blacked out the eyes but I wanted to demonstrate where they were during my reloads)
I see we have much to work on grasshopper. :cool:
Detonics
05-01-2005, 17:08
Over the top slide release is by far the best. Weapon should facing target with the forearm of the gun hand locked in just below the rib cage. A high reload position gives an adversary a distinct advantage if they can charge in and get leverage under the gun hand. Most folks carry extra mags at belt level so bringing the gun down and the mag up a shorter distance is a faster more stable proposition than having the gun high and mag coming up to meet it.
Another drill of worth is practicing releasing the slide by hooking on the front pocket or hip. (muzzle away from body of course) or the wrist bone / forearm of a theoretically "non-functional" supporting hand. You'll obviously loose some skin from wrist / forearm drill, but in real life if your supporting hand is "non-functional" and you're still concerned with reloading a handgun, it's a great tradeoff.
Consistency is king, it's good to try shooting and reloading from a variety of positions with a variety of physical limitations rather than developing a technique in the midst of a shitstorm.
stanley_white
05-01-2005, 18:19
Pinch grip the slide with weak hand.
My reasoning is because if I am using an M9 or any pistol with a slide mounted safety I find that if I do the "Reach over the slide" technique I am more apt to engage the safety / decocker especially if I have gloves on.
The Pinch grip the slide with weak hand technique works better IMHO for all handguns. If you're someone like me who is utilizing different pistols all the time you may want to check it out.
Smokin Joe
05-01-2005, 21:40
I see we have much to work on grasshopper. :cool:
Rooot-Roooh-Raggie...seems I've been missing the mark in my dry fire drills.
Roguish Lawyer
05-02-2005, 14:02
Nope I was watching my wifes eye candy get voted off American Idol. :D
We're going to be in the audience on Wednesday. :o
I realized this last Friday that doing either weak hand over or pinch gripping the slide hurts a little with pistols that have target sights. I'll venture a guess that the only way to overcome this puss-itis is practice reloading with snap caps and more range time.
I love finding more reasons to work with my pistols and get more shooting time. :D
The pistol I found this little problem with is my USP 45 Tactical. Another lump of money well spent. :)
Smokin Joe
05-03-2005, 05:35
We're going to be in the audience on Wednesday. :o
Oh god and I thought having my wife force me to watch it sucked bad......Glad I'm not you. :cool:
We're going to be in the audience on Wednesday. :o
What sign will you be holding up so I can look for you in the audience shots. ;) :D
Spartan359
05-04-2005, 09:33
While I'm no QP when it comes to shooting, I find it easier to just use the slide release. I'm right handed. Left eye dominant. I shoot a pistol with my right hand and aim with my left eye. With a rifle I shoot left handed and use my left eye. Odd but I can shoot fairly decent in my opinion. Feel free to bash this freak of nature. :cool:
Team Sergeant
05-04-2005, 12:02
While I'm no QP when it comes to shooting, I find it easier to just use the slide release. I'm right handed. Left eye dominant. I shoot a pistol with my right hand and aim with my left eye. With a rifle I shoot left handed and use my left eye. Odd but I can shoot fairly decent in my opinion. Feel free to bash this freak of nature. :cool:
I am also right handed, left eye dominant, but shoot with my right eye. I also shoot "OK". :cool:
TS
I use the slide release as I was blessed with large hands and long fingers/thumbs. I almost never have to adjust/change my grip to hit the slide release.
Sidenote: anyone else love the HK USP magazine release? I use my trigger finger (right handed) to dump it. :)
I am also right handed, left eye dominant, but shoot with my right eye. I also shoot "OK". :cool:
TS
Do you shift eye dominance through will when the handgun is raised, or how do you do it, Sir?
I'm also right handed and left eye dominant. Sir Tracy Warrington advised me to try both sides to see which side is most comfortable and natural, because that lends to better accuracy, and eye dominance can be trained. That was in regards to longs, however.
I don't shoot ok, lacking training and knowledge.
Team Sergeant
05-04-2005, 16:00
Do you shift eye dominance through will when the handgun is raised, or how do you do it, Sir?
I'm also right handed and left eye dominant. Sir Tracy Warrington advised me to try both sides to see which side is most comfortable and natural, because that lends to better accuracy, and eye dominance can be trained. That was in regards to longs, however.
I don't shoot ok, lacking training and knowledge.
Shoot with your strong hand, always, unless you cannot due to being wounded.
Do not ever give up the strong hand for eye dominance, leave that for the amateurs and the gun writers that think they know something about shooting.
Tell me something Martin, hows your eyesight at say 30 inches? With your left and right eye????? Let me know then do some research and figure out why I asked you that.
(I'm also a Special Forces trained Sniper, and also shoot with my right eye/hand.)
Team Sergeant
(call me "Sir" again and I'll IP ban you. ;) )
Slightly sharper with right eye than left.
I have a slight color offset between left and right eye. (even through glasses, I will go back and correct this - test was both with and without glasses)
I have somewhat better control of right eye movement. It feels more natural and less flaky (though it is a very minor feeling) than with left eye. Not that it's hard to use the left eye or it's unfocusable, just that the right one feels more 'determined'.
It feels easier and more natural to focus and retain peripheral vision with the right eye.
There's still a noticeable shift between perspectives at 30 inches.
It feels wrong to hit with the left hand with your right eye closed, and vice versa.
I'd guess that the eye muscle control works through some sort of replication and deviation between eyes that is also linked to prefered hand.
Perhaps there's a line at about 30 inches, where the eyes can still focus well while having good peripheral vision. This is also noticeable when using two eyes, but becomes obvious when looking with one eye at 30 inches and comparing with shorter distances.
About 30 inches also happens to be the length at which H2H becomes more immediate. Overview in that sort of situation is paramount.
Rifle and pistol frontsights come up at this distance. A good target picture benefits, I'd guess.
I will research the subject.
Thanks. :)
Having an object at 30 inches and then holding a hand out in front while swinging back and forth, looking with one eye, you get a marked experience of close and distant objects. Especially if you look at the hand while doing it.
Ok, I'm overdoing this.
Peregrino
05-04-2005, 18:29
Ok, I'm overdoing this.
Good Call! It's not worth getting worked up over. I'm with TS on this one. I'm cross-eye (right eye, left hand) dominant as well. With training it is not a big deal. I shoot pistol left hand, left eye because I'm an uncoordinated klutz and I need all the help I can get. I shoot all long guns right hand, right eye. That works well because most long guns are designed for the right handed world - the ergonomics are better when you use them as they were designed and my dominant eye comes in handy (works better) at longer ranges when a little more precision is required. World class shotgun shooters are always making money harping on "eye dominance" and not shooting cross-dominant. They have a lot of evidence to support their contentions but I personally don't make a living shooting clay disks. I've never had a clay bird point a gun at me so I don't practice the shooting skills required to "kill" them. My .02 - Peregrino
All depends on the type of handgun in relation to the size of your hands. If my thumb can reach the slide release ill use it. Most important is get it done and do it fast. Doc don't you remember being taught how to count rounds..............
I prefer to rack the slide every time I reload. I am a lefty and I cannot always manipulate the slide release on all handguns (I know a lot of others have mentioned the same thing).
Also some european handguns do not feature slide releases thus requireing you to rack the slide regardless. I find that it is just easier to learn one technique that can be applied to all handguns.
Another reason I rack the slide is that I am not infallible and in the off chance that my gun went "click" because of a stoppage and not being out of ammo (I may not notice in a high stress situation), I will be closer to clearing that stoppage if I rack the slide as opposed to manipulating the slide release.
Gene Econ
09-11-2005, 21:03
Man:
All these techniques to work a tool whose function hasn't changed much in close to 100 years. I am surprised that no one has figured it out by now. Must be a design flaw by Browning. :o
Some poor chap stated how competitive pisotleros reload and function their slide. He took a unjustified smoking in my opinion. I noted the film of that AMU shooter changing magazines and no one seemed to criticize his technique. It is precisely what was identified by the smokee.
I can't seem to understand the assumption that because a guy is competitive and extremely good at it -- that somehow what he is doing can't be related to combat conditions. Does anyone here think that a IPSC shooter (for example) isn't looking at both his target array and his pistol when he reloads? He most certainly is as he is taking in conditions, making a decision on how to approach his target array with his fresh magazine, and reloading at the same time. I dare say everyone here does the exact same thing and strives to be just as fast and precise. The best pistolero we had in the 1st SFG while TS was on board was and still is a competitive 3 Gun Shooter. A very competitive one at that. I saw nothing different when he trained fellows than when he trained himself for competition. The reason why there was no difference is because there didn't need to be any difference. The end state was identical and the techniques of pistolcraft that this guy used to win in competition were identical to the techniques used in combat. The exception was that he directly and with specific intent trained his mind to win. The Army stilll refuses to train the mind to win in any direct manner and that is the difference between a National Level competitor and the Army in terms of shooting skills.
Take a look at that AMU fellow again. Note he is inserting the magazine and releasing the slide with his non firing hand as he takes his grip. That is extremely fast, efficient, and uses 'gross' motor skills. I know because I am a 'gross motor skill' person and this technique of loading a magazine is extremely fast, smooth, and efficient. I am not sure what type of fine motor skills are required to bang a magazine into a pistol then hit the slide release with your thumb or even half your hand as you gain your grip.
If you want to do something to confuse and divert a shooters attention from what he really needs to do to perform, demand he does a magazine change or anything else for that matter using a specific technique. He will consciously try to do everything you tell him and he will fuck it up until the cows come home. Instead, how about telling him to change the damn magazine fast, then put him into situations where his magazine changes are absolutely critical to good performance -- in this case it would be a time factor that adds to or detracts from an overall 'grade'. Don't worry, when he sees himself losing seconds of time due to poor technique, he will figure out a very fast way of doing a magazine change. He will even ask your advice as he is ready to receive it.
Oh well, I am stuck using the magazine change technique of that AMU shooter in that film. Don't blame IPSC that I don't pursue either. I learned that identical method of changing magazines at SOT in 1981.
Gene :lifter
Team Sergeant
09-12-2005, 08:30
Not only would I not take a class from a "competitive" shooter I would never refer anyone serious about personal defense to a "competitive" shooter.
In my opinion a competitive shooter is a game player and nothing more. IMO Too many have taken classes from competitive shooters only to pay dearly for such classes-skills. Might I point out that 99.99% of all police officers are killed (in gun fights) by amateurs, sad but very true.
And who are teaching many of the skills these officers are utilizing, most are competitive shooters that have never faced any threat more serious than a paper target. But because of their "speed" they demand hundreds of dollars per hour in order to "teach" their skill to our countries LEO's.
I'll chime in and critique his style if you like.
That fellow in the AMU video has but one thing on his mind, speed. He's a perfect example of a "competitive shooter". Why? No one I know, except a "competitive shooter" wears their mags or "mag" in front such as he demostrates. No one I know uses a "race gun" in a gunfight. No one I know has the time or inclination to practice hours a day on just mag changes. No police officer I've ever met wears a belt and just “one” mag. Most competitive shooters wear nothing but a mag or two on their belt. Tell you what, place a real police work belt on your AMU shooter and I’ll bet it seriously degrades his “speed”. Or hand him a factory Glock the same Glock that ten's of thousands police officers carry each and every day and then have him do a video.
Most "competitive shooters" I've read about have had zero in the way of combat training, or "counter terrorism" training which I mention only because of many "competitive shooters" now sport "Counter Terrorism" or "Special Operations" somewhere in their bio's in order to sell themselves to law enforcement.
I think most people are being fed a whole lot of crap concerning shooting techniques and the worst part is good men and women are dying because of training given by "competitive shooters".
Gene, thank you for the post. I enjoyed reading it. I think, as I read TS post, I came to a different conclusion to his post than you. There are cross trained shooters and they are, I believe, not being discussed here. The course in competitive shooting is known and some times very repetitive. LEO shoot outs and Combat shoots require adaptation to a constant changing environment. I guess the only repetitive aspect is the constant change.
TS mentions Game player. Running the course, in itself, is a skill. Running a repetitive course over and over to improve ones skill, is what game playing is about. A IPSC shooter could be a good combat shooter, but by just being a IPSC shooter alone means the person is a IPSC Shooter and nothing more. Not to demean IPSC, but it is a "game". I like cowboy shooting, I like the changing scenarios, but the scenario is known before the shoot. The scenario in combat/LEO vs. Criminal shoot out is not known till after the actual life and death shoot out.
In a prior post, TS gave some great advice, if you want to learn IPSC, learn from a IPSC shooter, LEO shooting from a LEO, Hunting from a hunter, and so on. All the different competitive shooting have something in common, regardless of how bad or good you shot, you go home after the end of the day. That in itself establishes the major difference in competitive shooters and combat shooters.
Team Sergeant
09-12-2005, 09:58
The best pistolero we had in the 1st SFG while TS was on board was and still is a competitive 3 Gun Shooter. A very competitive one at that.
I was there when you were there and I don't know who you're talking about???
The "best" pistol shot I knew in 1st Gp was a former member of a certain CT unit and was on the ground during Operation Eagle Claw. While most knew him very few knew of his skill with a pistol.
TS
NousDefionsDoc
09-12-2005, 12:19
I finally found the video. He's very fast with his set up. It's obvious he's put in the time. But I think it is comparing apples to anvils. I wonder how fast he is 10 seconds after the hammer man missed and smashed his hand on the Haligan tool? Or after humping the ram through the jungle for 2 days?
Yep, he's fast. No doubt about it. With his set up. In his environment. Under controlled circumstances.
Now, let's twist The Loop in knots, play on their ground, and make the range two way. ;)
Gene Econ
09-12-2005, 21:03
Not only would I not take a class from a "competitive" shooter I would never refer anyone serious about personal defense to a "competitive" shooter.... Might I point out that 99.99% of all police officers are killed (in gun fights) by amateurs, sad but very true....That fellow in the AMU video has but one thing on his mind, speed.....Most "competitive shooters" I've read about have had zero in the way of combat training, or "counter terrorism" training which I mention only because of many "competitive shooters" now sport "Counter Terrorism" or "Special Operations" somewhere in their bio's in order to sell themselves to law enforcement.....I think most people are being fed a whole lot of crap concerning shooting techniques and the worst part is good men and women are dying because of training given by "competitive shooters".
TS:
Hopefully I didn't chew up your comments too badly.
I would take a class from a National Level competitive shooter -- but not as you are mentioning in terms of LEOs or for personal defense. LEOs hire guys based on national titles and the guys train them accordingly -- for a huge sum of money. Thats capitalism mixed in with stupidity. I would hire a National Level shooter to coach me -- but he would have to be totally dedicated to coaching me to attain the goals I have set and I would not do such a thing unless I have defined my goals very clearly. He would dance to my tune and I know and can state my tune very clearly.
I too have problems with guys who never served a day in their lives bragging on their ability to train guys to be warriors in the military. They have no clue of course and SO units flock to them like flies on shit. They do incessant drills at a huge cost and they get guys who are temporarily good. A month later, the same guys are no longer good and think it is because they didn't shoot enough ammo. The problem is that these competitive champions don't spend the majority of time training the guys how to think like a champion. The one big difference between a national champion in anything and the average shooter is the champion has trained his mind to be a champion. The shooting skills can be perfected very quickly as these physical skills are about ten percent of the equation. The other 90 percent concerns how to think.
I don't have problems learning how to succeed from any sports champion -- no matter his discipline. A soldier can be a thousand times better as a soldier if he believed and emulated the thinking process of someone like Lance Armstrong for example. His shooting skills would improve dramatically as well as any other skill. That is what you will get from a National or International Champion -- a means of thinking that allows you to be much, much, better than anyone else.
As for police officers being killed by amateurs in gunfights, I have not yet seen any facts that can directly relate the unfortunate deaths of these police officers to being trained (stupid for the agency IMHO) by a competitive shooter. Show me the facts that directly relate their death to something they were trained to do by any instructor at all. Their deaths were unfortunate but are probably due more to their inability to be mentally prepared for the situation than a lack of weapons training. The problem is that their weapons training probably followed the flawed techniques used by any bureaucracy to train a statistical average of people. Insted of training them to be situationally aware while shooting -- they insisted on the stupidity of incessant drills in the flawed belief in that thing termed 'muscle memory' would save their lives in conditions they had never trained in.
If anyone thinks that AMU shooter is concentrating on making his magazine changes faster -- you are incorrect in your assumption. First off, how does anyone know what is going on in his mind? I have a clue though, and here are my views on this specific issue. He is removing the magazine change from conscious thought so he can focus his attention on what he needs to do to win. In this case, he is focusing his attention on his calls from his previous magazine and from his calls he is making a specific decision on how to approach his next target array. It is a bit faster than that though. His eyes took in his calls and results from his previous magazine or two, and he has visualized how to approach his next target array and the rest of his course of fire in a manner that shows him perfection. He will do what he has envisioned and this is termed taking decisive action. He may win or lose but that isn't entering his mind more than likely. He is allowing himself to be totally situationally aware and to do what he has decided to do -- to perfection. This doesn't mean the guy doesn't practice. He does but now he has a plan of action that is both mental and physical and he sees nothing but success so his body gives him success.
Is this way of training somehow incompatable with preparing men for combat or police officers to face conditons that no one could dream of?
As for his high speed gear. The Army is only about fifteen years behind the civilian world in terms of equipment that works far better than what is issued. I see a day when SO will used compensated pistols and dot sights. When the web gear allows for faster access to weapons or ammunition. When a carbine is made that fits the shooter perfectly while he is wearing all his body armor -- and for the same reaons a competitive shooter chooses such a design -- to be faster and more precise. I may not like a bunch of the crap that competitors use to be better but if such gear makes a soldier better and can take the beating -- why not go for it?
Enough for now.
Gene
Team Sergeant
09-13-2005, 11:14
TS:
Hopefully I didn't chew up your comments too badly.
Gene
Chew away, we can settle it on the range shoulder to shoulder using off the shelf guns, off the shelf ammo and holsters, case of beer to the victor…… :D
This is where we differ. I would not refer anyone that I know to a competitive shooter for training unless they desired that training for IPSC or to become some sort of competitive shooter themselves.
Competitive shooter’s have zilch to offer in the way of tactics and in fact procedures they execute in the course of shooting their scenarios will get one killed in a world where the range is “two way” and there is no timing buzzer to start or stop the action.
Another good reason not to take classes from a competitive shooter is teaching simple muscle reflex exercises (such as the AMU shooter in the video) that has little purpose in the world of police officers and military. My point being the military (and just about every police officer I trained) do not wear competitive mag holders/carriers on their gear due to the fact they work in rough terrain and wear gear that will retain those magazines in a real combat situation. Teaching them a magazine change they are not used to or not utilizing their “work” gear is ludicrous, if you doubt me as some police officers how many have tried to “load” a flashlight into their empty weapon……
I would like to see police officers and conventional military with an improved approach to marksmanship and less on the “speed” training. Speed is nice, sometimes, but accuracy is a must. You can be the fastest in the world but if you cannot hit the water for falling off the boat then you can forget about winning any fight.
I don't have problems learning how to succeed from any sports champion -- no matter his discipline. A soldier can be a thousand times better as a soldier if he believed and emulated the thinking process of someone like Lance Armstrong for example. His shooting skills would improve dramatically as well as any other skill. That is what you will get from a National or International Champion -- a means of thinking that allows you to be much, much, better than anyone else.
I’ll stick with taking shooting classes and the mindset that goes along with it from combat veterans as I've yet to hear about a national sports champ capable of standing toe to toe with the al-qaeda idiots and succeeding. ;)
TS
mumbleypeg
09-13-2005, 13:59
Chew away, we can settle it on the range shoulder to shoulder using off the shelf guns, off the shelf ammo and holsters, case of beer to the victor…… :D
TS
Admin edit - Do you really think you should get involved in this part of the discussion? Stay out of it and don't try to be clever. - NDD
Ask that guy in that video...
"How he did, shooting a stock gun/ammo against a person who shoots for real?" :eek: ;)
Take care.
Gene Econ
09-14-2005, 08:45
Chew away, we can settle it on the range shoulder to shoulder using off the shelf guns, off the shelf ammo and holsters, case of beer to the victor…… :D ...Another good reason not to take classes from a competitive shooter is teaching simple muscle reflex exercises (such as the AMU shooter in the video) that has little purpose in the world of police officers and military. ...Teaching them a magazine change they are not used to or not utilizing their “work” gear is ludicrous, if you doubt me as some police officers how many have tried to “load” a flashlight into their empty weapon……I would like to see police officers and conventional military with an improved approach to marksmanship and less on the “speed” training. Speed is nice, sometimes, but accuracy is a must. You can be the fastest in the world but if you cannot hit the water for falling off the boat then you can forget about winning any fight. I’ll stick with taking shooting classes and the mindset that goes along with it from combat veterans as I've yet to hear about a national sports champ capable of standing toe to toe with the al-qaeda idiots and succeeding. ;) TS
TS:
Again I 'chopped' up your paragraph. When I say this I mean I tried to reduce the original message to major points. Hopefully I did not change your intent or take these out of context. I don't have much more than out of the box pistols so you wouldn't need to supply me with one but I won't turn down your offer for ammunition. Must be nice to get your hands on a case or two of factory loads once in a while. Win or lose -- you can have the beer. Makes me piss too much and I can't take the alcohol well anymore. Don't understand why either! :D
This discussion has been quite useful to me as I have always wanted to understand the logic of soldiers who reject competitive shooting in terms of any tie in with military training. I will admit that you have come the closest to stating things that I can understand -- although I will disagree with your points almost completely.
The guy tried to load his flashlight into the pistol because the training focused more on 'muscle memory' than the reality called situational awareness. One thing a champion shooter can do is train guys to be very aware of conditions and to be extremely decisive in action. Unfortunately, systems buy into repetitive drills as opposed to reality of situations so a outfit who hires a champion shooter only demands he teach a shooter to be a better shooter without the burden of reality. Not my problem, the problem is one of the outfit who hired the guy and who could not articulate their requirements in the contract. Too bad that police officer didn't realize he was pulling out a flashlight instead of a magazine. Bet that trained him to be more aware though. He, he, he.
There are from six to eight combat veterans who work with me in training soldiers from two Stryker Brigades here on the skills involved in combat marksmanship. We use techniques of sports psychology in almost all of our training and we have seen a quantum improvement in situational awarenes and marksmanship skills as a result. It is interesting that none of them have rejected any competitive marksmanship techniques that I have used either. They know that these techniques of positive coaching and mental attitude are related to competitive shooting and they don't seem to care. I haven't heard one of these guys say a word to anyone about their combat experiences although they will try to set conditions in training that are related to their experiences from time to time. They just don't seem too concerned about having a CIB.
Most of our efforts as of late have been in training leaders who have multiple combat tours. This isn't because anyone is forcing these leaders to take our training and learn our techniques of training. They want to see what we are doing as they have a desire to make their own training and skills better. Honestly, none of them have cared about combat experience. Not sure why but I have found that to be the rule rather than an exception. They don't say much about their combat experiences either but they normally say that the training is more focused on reality. They will also use the philosophies and concepts in their own trainig and for a change they are able to see a cause and effect -- positive or negative -- and they become very fast at changing conditions in order to keep their men focused on a clear end state.
The 'speed' issue seems to be a common thread in thinking. I don't view speed as a stand alone issue and if guys start going to fast for performance, we slow them down using the identical coaching techniques used in High Power rifle competition in fact. My observations from talking with these combat veterans is that universally they believe they aren't fast enough. Very few believed they weren't precise enough. The reason why they thought they were precise enough is that they normally shot the guy who shot at them. Or they shot enough to make the other guy stop trying to kill them. The usual facts are that they simply didn't see the threat until it threatened. Human nature demands a solution, even if the circumstances are beyond the ability of a human to control. So, these combat veterans settled on speed being the issue instead of accepting a very specific circumstance that they had no control over. So far we have found that using sports psychology techniques allows for a logical method of putting things into perspective in terms of perceptions that most guys will accept -- thus allowing them to work on things that they can control and that they need to perfect. Such as precision over speed which normally is more true than not. That is one of many examples but basically we use sports psychology along with the training and we have seen positive results.
I thought of this and wanted to put it out to see how folks think.
Lets say I meet an NCO or Officer who has a CIB and is also Presidents Hundred and Distinguished. Oh yes, these folks do exist and more so than one would believe. How do I know he is using competitive techniques or combat experience when he offers suggestions or coaching? How can I tell if his mindset is one of a competitive shooter or a combat veteran?
I have a fire to put out so must go. I welcome comments on this entire issue as it is broadening my own knowledge.
Gene
Team Sergeant
09-14-2005, 11:11
This discussion has been quite useful to me as I have always wanted to understand the logic of soldiers who reject competitive shooting in terms of any tie in with military training. I will admit that you have come the closest to stating things that I can understand -- although I will disagree with your points almost completely.
You speak of military personnel that have earned the Presidents Hundred and Distinguished awards but not of those that have graduated from combat related schools such as SOTIC, SFAUC, etc, etc. I think you know if given a choice of personnel, which would be selected to go on a combat related mission. We also know who is being tenaciously recruited by the civilian contractors for PSD work in extremely hostile environments and who is being offered six figure bonuses to remain in the US military and why.
As a former SF Master Sergeant I can tell you the Presidents Hundred and Distinguished awards don’t mean a hill of beans to me when I look at a soldier, and truth be told I’d probably have the same view of the Presidents Hundred soldier as I would the soldiers on the Divisions Golf Team. What I’m alluding to is I would not regard their coaching of combat troops in a positive light. While they might be just fine working with basic trainees teaching BRM and coaching the Army Marksmanship Team they just don’t cut the mustard when it comes to teaching combat soldiers. Think about it, if they were so skilled then why don’t they teach at the schools that actually instruct the men that go toe to toe with the real bad men in this world? I’ll tell you what I think, is that shooting competently is but a small slice of what it takes to stand toe to toe with the most ruthless individuals on this planet and prevail. And this for no other reason is why I would not want a civilian with no military-LEO experience teaching someone to go into harms way.
I disagree with your use of “sports psychology” in order to enhance a soldier’s combat effectiveness or shooting skills, I do agree with the Roman woman’s quote: “Come home with your shield or upon it.” This is a mindset that cannot be handed down by those that have never faced anything more than a paper target. Shooting straight is but a small aspect of combat. It’s not a sport and in my opinion should not be approached as such. If one has never loaded a magazine with the intent of killing a man, then, in my opinion, they have no reason to be teaching others this skill.
I will tell you that in my twenty years one 30 minute talk by Maj Howard taught me more about combat than all the combat schools I've ever attended. It is with COL Howard in mind that when I teach someone the weapons skills they need to engage and win on today’s battlefield with their marksmanship training goes a heavy dose of the combat mindset.
The guy tried to load his flashlight into the pistol because the training focused more on 'muscle memory' than the reality called situational awareness.
In my opinion this scenario is caused by tunnel vision brought on by a lack of proper training in stress related environments. As you suggest this person lacks SA, SA can be taught but only if we continue to place individuals in high stress situations. Few military units have the ability to constantly place soldiers in high stress situations instead the military (after Pres Reagan) decided to embark on a “safety first” mindset which removed most chance conventional combat soldiers would develop a keen sense of SA. Only since 9/11 has conventional combat troops faced high stress situations that taught them a higher level of SA, and yet another reason I would not want civilians teaching combat soldiers their skills.
A bit of preemption on my part, I also do not consider the stresses the competitive shooters undergo during a competition the same stresses a soldiers faces while performing his duty in harms way. As has been mentioned before, the pucker factor is much different when the range is “two way” or a person is actually in harms way.
TS
Gene Econ
09-14-2005, 19:54
As you suggest this person lacks SA, SA can be taught but only if we continue to place individuals in high stress situations. Few military units have the ability to constantly place soldiers in high stress situations ....A bit of preemption on my part, I also do not consider the stresses the competitive shooters undergo during a competition the same stresses a soldiers faces while performing his duty in harms way. As has been mentioned before, the pucker factor is much different when the range is “two way” or a person is actually in harms way.TS
TS:
Your views on competitive shooters and sports psychology are clear. No need to continue that one. Be happy you are retired and are doing something you enjoy and in your own manner.
Stress is an interesting issue and I am curious as to your techniques in training guys to handle stress while involved in combat weapons training. I am curious if you have determined any consistency in stress between individuals and if you have been able to categorize these in any sort of specific terms. I think what I am asking is this. Can you manipulate conditions to cause specific types of stress and if so, how do you train the guys to reduce or eliminate these factors?
Gene
The Reaper
09-14-2005, 23:00
Sims force on force training is a good start, IMHO.
TR
Ok after using all these new High Speed Pistols out on the market. I finally bought a Kimber Desert Warrior 1911. I posted this question on another board, but want to see what you guys have to say. They kind of high jacked the thread. For a Speed reload (Gun go's dry and you have to insert a new mag) Is it better to reach over the top with the weak hand and rack the slide to chamber a new round (Like most Glock users) or use your weak hand to hit the slide release as you bring your hand up to re-grip the pistol after inserting a fresh Mag. My muscle memory has me reaching over the top with the weak hand and pulling back on the slide to release it and chamber a new round. I want to stay with what I know already, but it feels weird reaching over the top on a 1911. What is the preferred method of the two, or is it user preference???
I'm not quoting a textbook here, but I say go with the move that relies on gross motor skills and rack the slide! Besides working every time, it will also transfer over to almost any other semi-auto handgun. If you're re-loading under fire, you might not even remember whether you're shooting a Glock or a 1911.
How is the Kimber? I've been admiring them for a while now?
The Reaper
11-13-2006, 14:31
Ok after using all these new High Speed Pistols out on the market. I finally bought a Kimber Desert Warrior 1911. I posted this question on another board, but want to see what you guys have to say. They kind of high jacked the thread. For a Speed reload (Gun go's dry and you have to insert a new mag) Is it better to reach over the top with the weak hand and rack the slide to chamber a new round (Like most Glock users) or use your weak hand to hit the slide release as you bring your hand up to re-grip the pistol after inserting a fresh Mag. My muscle memory has me reaching over the top with the weak hand and pulling back on the slide to release it and chamber a new round. I want to stay with what I know already, but it feels weird reaching over the top on a 1911. What is the preferred method of the two, or is it user preference???
K:
I was a drop the slide release kind of guy till recently.
I am currently trying to change to the pull the slide fully to the rear and let it go to streamline the muscle memory for stoppages and reloading. I elieve it is slightly slower, but more reliable and simpler.
Change is hard.
TR
x SF med
11-13-2006, 14:36
Change is hard.
Especially when launched from a slingshot or a wrist-rocket, those quarters can do some damage. (sorry TR, couldn't resist, and well, they are weapons....):eek:
incommin
11-13-2006, 15:06
Too old to change. Insert new mag, hit slide release, and go back on target. I've got a factory worked Colt Commander I've been shooting for longer than I can remember.
Jim
Put about 1000 rounds thru it and only had miss feeds with the same Mag. But it was a different type of mag. The cheap one that came with the gun. Since I stopped using that mag I haven't had any problems. Don't have it with me, I will let you know what Mags I purchased that have been working fine. Best out of the box gun I ever fired. Think my other Guns will be collecting dust for awhile. It was also mentioned before to go with racking the slide because it is what you will do for a malfunction, good point TR. I am teaching the Coast Guard for a few weeks and will be using the Beretta M9, What a fall back this is going to be.
Team Sergeant
11-13-2006, 18:04
Ok after using all these new High Speed Pistols out on the market. I finally bought a Kimber Desert Warrior 1911. I posted this question on another board, but want to see what you guys have to say. They kind of high jacked the thread. For a Speed reload (Gun go's dry and you have to insert a new mag) Is it better to reach over the top with the weak hand and rack the slide to chamber a new round (Like most Glock users) or use your weak hand to hit the slide release as you bring your hand up to re-grip the pistol after inserting a fresh Mag. My muscle memory has me reaching over the top with the weak hand and pulling back on the slide to release it and chamber a new round. I want to stay with what I know already, but it feels weird reaching over the top on a 1911. What is the preferred method of the two, or is it user preference???
I presume you are talking about a slide that is locked to the rear?
Roguish Lawyer
11-13-2006, 18:06
Your partner in crime started a thread on this topic a long time ago, and I seem to recall it went on forever. I am on Blackberry, but I'll merge this into it if I can find it.
NousDefionsDoc
11-13-2006, 18:22
I presume you are talking about a slide that is locked to the rear?
Yes, he is. He's out for a day two. He'll be along eventually.
Team Sergeant
11-13-2006, 19:51
I'm missing something........
You go dry, you reach for the full mag with the weak hand, insert the mag with the weak hand and then hit the slide lock with the strong hand, regripping with the weak hand as the weapon returns to a level position.
NousDefionsDoc
11-13-2006, 19:57
He can't reach it without changing his grip. Anyway, I'll let him answer, it's his question.
Team Sergeant
11-13-2006, 21:06
He can't reach it without changing his grip. Anyway, I'll let him answer, it's his question.
We all change our grip for a few nano seconds.
TS
Slide release strong hand, way ive learned with M-9 so i do it with every pistol
weak hand rack only used for clearing jams.
Team Sergeant
11-14-2006, 06:14
Slide release strong hand, way ive learned with M-9 so i do it with every pistol
weak hand rack only used for clearing jams.
I agree with this.
I voted over the top weak hand but I practice both over the top weak hand and strong hand slide release. For me the strong hand slide release requires less movement but more fine motor skills while the over the top weak hand requires significantly more movemnet of the gross motor type. Since most of my shooting is "stress" shooting gross motor skills are easier. Under stress that dang slide release can get very small.
No way do I count rounds. :eek:
Yes, slide locked to the rear. But the question was only for the 1911 where it is difficult to hit the slide release with the strong hand like on the M9 and Glock. I am going with reaching over the top (sling shot) since this is how I speed reload with most pistols when I have slide lock back because the Mag has run dry. Just the 1911 no other models. The question basically is it tactically ok to sling shot the slide on a 1911 by reaching over the top with your weak hand after inserting a fresh Mag.
Surgicalcric
11-14-2006, 18:23
Slide release strong hand, way ive learned with M-9 so i do it with every pistol
weak hand rack only used for clearing jams.
What if youre a lefty, or as in my case forced to shoot lefty?
Crip
NousDefionsDoc
11-14-2006, 18:30
What if youre a lefty, or as in my case forced to shoot lefty?
Crip
Why are you forced?
Team Sergeant
11-14-2006, 18:32
Yes, slide locked to the rear. But the question was only for the 1911 where it is difficult to hit the slide release with the strong hand like on the M9 and Glock. I am going with reaching over the top (sling shot) since this is how I speed reload with most pistols when I have slide lock back because the Mag has run dry. Just the 1911 no other models. The question basically is it tactically ok to sling shot the slide on a 1911 by reaching over the top with your weak hand after inserting a fresh Mag.
On one hand I see that as wasted motion, but some don't have a large hand and must consider other means I guess. I never had a problem with the slide catch manipulation via strong hand. I don't see a problem with using it in a tactical situation. I can "see" how fast one could become using that method.
When I wore a M9 I carried loaded, safe off. :rolleyes:
TS
What if youre a lefty, or as in my case forced to shoot lefty?
Crip
trigger finger if you learn it that way
Over the top.
As previously stated, I think it "flows" better during IA drills, and feels natural, albeit, if you do anything enough, it will feel that way.
I think, based on the thread discussions here, that you can subdivide the topic into two categories. Releasing the slide, and using the slide release itself.
Both can be utilized in appropriate circumstances, which I think have to be defined. I tend to opt for the gross motor skill (bang and thump method) styles.
I tend to favor running the gun dry, rather than cycling mag changes as a rule. However, that doesn't preclude me from a reload if circumstances allow
Over the top, unless you have spent a ton of time learning and practicing something else. It uses more gross motor skills. If you're doing IA drills or anything where you're training and building muscle memory for combat skills, gross motor skills are always better because they're easier and you can still do them after you're hopped up so high on adrenaline that you couldn't take a whiz without getting your boots wet! When you get that chemical cocktail that your body dumps into your system, you lose your fine motor skills, and things like switches and levers can become major obstacles!
Team Sergeant
11-16-2006, 11:48
Over the top, unless you have spent a ton of time learning and practicing something else. It uses more gross motor skills. If you're doing IA drills or anything where you're training and building muscle memory for combat skills, gross motor skills are always better because they're easier and you can still do them after you're hopped up so high on adrenaline that you couldn't take a whiz without getting your boots wet! When you get that chemical cocktail that your body dumps into your system, you lose your fine motor skills, and things like switches and levers can become major obstacles!
I don't agree.
Proper training refines these skills and mindset allows us to make those high value shots into the left eye of a bad guy while he's shooting at us.
I only agree with your statement as it concerns sheeple.
When you get that chemical cocktail that your body dumps into your system, you lose your fine motor skills, and things like switches and levers can become major obstacles!!
If this is true one might be better served to find himself a job flipping burgers instead of going toe to toe with the bad men.
Team Sergeant
That's what I meant when I wrote, "unless you have spent a ton of time learning and practicing something else". I don't know if I would call everybody who doesn't have 24/7 access to a shoot house "sheeple". I just think of them as underpriveleged.
CDRODA396
12-17-2006, 21:26
I use the weak hand/support hand over the top for several reasons, most already stated here...
-works regardless of gun, hand size, right/left handed.
-can clear very difficult jams by pushing forward with the strong hand, opposite the rearward pull of the weak/support hand.
-gross motor skill, easy to do under stress.
-once your weak hand releases the slide, your strong hand is moving towards presentation if needed to continue engagement.
-when releasing from the slide release, you lose with some guns up to a quarter of an inch of rearward travel fo the slide, therefore you are not maximizing the spring weight that the gun was designed to reliably chamber rounds under.
Before I say this, yes, you can do this for years and not have a problem, but it doesnt change the fact that releasing the slide with the slide stop places huge shear forces on the slide stop which wears on it, and can break it...no, doesnt happen alot, but it does happen.
I started shooting USPSA (the IPSC sanctioned governing body in the US) about a year ago after I retired and Uncle Sam wasnt funding my shooting anymore. It does NOT replace tactical training/shooting, but it can be a useful tool. The stress comes from the clock and competition, but YOU DO NOT have to leave your tactics at the gate and play solely by their techniques. In fact out on Range 14, you will see many duty guns, thigh holsters and blackhawk nylon three mag, mag pouches, the very ones you'll see at Bagram or Bagdad.
IDPA was founded to eliminate some of the gamesmanship, and enforces the use of cover, save reloads, etc. Stages are by rulebook mandate designed to replicate "real life" scenarios as much as possible...no "Hoser Stages." It also rewards accuracy over speed, vice USPSA which is inverse. However, you still have to hit the "vital zone" of either target to get any points.
Both are still competitive shooting. And both can be used to augment your training. Both are not far from the Stress Test of the old SOT, and not having gone to SFARTEC, I dont know, but would bet that stress test is similar.
The one thing serious competitive shooters have over most SOF types that I knew on AD or now (I still work at Group as a Civilian), is they establish a practice ethic that I simply didnt see in anyone not shooting weekend matches. I dont know anyone that dry fires daily, does 250 draws a day, etc. Some Team Sergeants would draw pistols one a week, or as "hip pocket training, " but not on the scale the average competitive shooter does. My company had the M9 pellet pistols, and occassionally you would here the tink, tink of pellets hitting the bullet trap. Dave Savigny (or however you spell it...) the Glock Factory USPSA Shooter, does 1000 draws and dry fires a day before he ever fires a shot, and his ammo is free. You simply dont see (or I dont) that kind of dedication to the craft in the Team Rooms.
Finally, most serious USPSA shooters will disable their slide lock to prevent the slide from locking back on an empty magazine. If you are shooting a wide body 1911 (ie. SVI/STI), the mag well is of course monsterous and the magazine is not quite twice as wide as a single stack mag, but close...at the bottom. But at the mouth end, it is the same size as a single stack mag. If you jam a mag into a SVI/STI with the slide locked back during a speed reload, you can easily over-insert the mag, lodging it to far in to allow the slide to go forward and too far to easily remove the mag, and you can break or damage the extractor...and with a lttle practice, you can get very fast without thinking about it, at racking the slide with the weak hand (no, not as fast as with the slide release, but fast). This IS based strickly on gamesmanship, but addresses some comments earlier in the thread.
My nickle and a half, all blasters fire away!
frostfire
06-01-2008, 01:27
don't want to start new threads on these tutorial by the AMU, so here goes:
Did you get to see him shoot, Sir?
Nope, 'fraid not, we were in the Headquarters.
Maybe next time.
I told him that we enjoyed the video and that he was pretty good.
TR
all copy and paste
CPL Travis Tomasie on speed reloads
youtube.com/watch?v=StXMHw32kjA
CPL Travis Tomasie on shot calling (good drill at the end)
youtube.com/watch?v=yqCqeyvRxXw
SSG Max Michael on shooting on the move
youtube.com/watch?v=DAHDgmWOkCE
SSG Johnson and PFC Horner on shotgun reloading
youtube.com/watch?v=wU5dsnBsxXs
Referring to the original thread, I guess I'm the only weird one here who uses weak hand thumb to engage the slide lock. The thumb is already heading that way to reestablish the 2-hand grip. Well, it works (fast) each and every time. This "each and every time" is not in a two-way range (yet), so we'll see
I'm a natural lefty so I go over the top...
wanabe1026
06-02-2008, 11:12
Over the top, unless you have spent a ton of time learning and practicing something else. It uses more gross motor skills. If you're doing IA drills or anything where you're training and building muscle memory for combat skills, gross motor skills are always better because they're easier and you can still do them after you're hopped up so high on adrenaline that you couldn't take a whiz without getting your boots wet! When you get that chemical cocktail that your body dumps into your system, you lose your fine motor skills, and things like switches and levers can become major obstacles!
I recently had an instructor comment on the loss of fine motor skills under stress. His attitude was that proper trigger manipulation is a fine motor skill. With proper training people still have good trigger manipulation under stress. If you train yourself to use the slide release then its not a big deal. He used the slide release when shooting in competitions because it was faster for him. When training for combat he used the weak hand over the top. The problem I can see with that is if you stress out and your body takes a second to choose which one to use.
I personally use the weak hand over the top simply because its only one skill my body needs to remember. Anytime I need to manipulate the slide its done the same way. Thats the way my Dad trained me and later how the pistol classes I've taken trained me. I just took a carbine class and found myself instinctively running the charging handle on speed loads when it ran dry instead of using the bold release. The class taught to hit the bolt release and if that didn't work go to the charging handle. The instructor saw me not use it a few times and asked me if I even realized it. I didn't. It was just so ingrained in my head to get the magazine seated and then rack it. So I guess in theory when I'm under stress thats what I'll do without thinking about it and it will work.
I guess to sum it all up: I use over the top with weak hand.
Well, I think the slide release is faster.:munchin
x2 plus it's the way I was taught.
triQshot
06-02-2008, 15:26
I use B as well.
Gross motor skills are better when it hits the fan. Fine motor skills go out the window when your heart rate jumps up.
(What our instructors at the PA taught us)
Pull back on the slide with your weak hand, and push foward with your strong hand.
Blitzzz (RIP)
07-22-2008, 20:56
I like what Guy said. room clearing tactical is over the top with weak hand securing the weapon mid-chest and pushing the lower forward. pinch with weak hand and rotate pistol upside down for malfunctions. and combat pinch with weak hand slide pull because one may be behind cover on the ground. Blitzzz
82ndtrooper
07-22-2008, 21:22
I was instructed by Larry Vickers on the both the over hand method and slide lock method during reloading drills.
Larry's thumgs are long enough to reach the slide lock release, but others like Todd Jarret use their weak hand thumb to depress the slide lock once the mag is seated properly in the weapon.
Both methods work, but I have trouble with an USP slide lock with the weak hand thumb. It's just kinda sticky and much harder than 1911's to accomplish this type of mag reload with the slide is locked back.
I've opted to just using the over hand method (sling shot) for all reloads when the mag has been completley spent.
Just my little .02
Heres Todd Jarret usng four different methods of reloading. Notice his slide lock method of reloading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmNjcubxfQA
Sorry if I'm "Lazarus'ing" this thread.
I prefer to use the slingshot method, as it's been called here, when loading up a magazine fresh or reloading. When I'm locking back to the rear, usually for clearing purposes or to place a cold weapon on the shooting range bench, etc., I will use the weak hand over top method.
The reasoning behind this is that most auto pistols are universally racked this way. I can pick up a S&W, 1911, H&K, Sig, or Beretta (or any other modern auto for that matter) and rack it just the same. After all, I don't train to play gun games -- as fun as they can be -- I train for life or death.
The slide release will not be in the same place on 100% of pistols, but the slide will be ;)
IMO, if you train the gross motor skills to combat speed at the one way range/shoot house you should be good to go on the real two way range. Just my .02. Just remember "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is deadly"...Oh yeah and be accurate!
Back to lurking
JoeEcho45
08-17-2008, 18:48
Whichever way gets the dang thing reloaded. Situation dictates. Sometimes it's easier to just drop the empty one and grab another one that's already loaded, though. :)