View Full Version : Official: Obama 'disgusted' with Israel
Warrior-Mentor
10-16-2009, 18:15
Official: Obama 'disgusted' with Israel
Says president poised to press for withdrawal from strategic territory
October 16, 2009
Aaron Klein
WorldNetDaily
JERUSALEM – U.S. officials in recent days expressed to the Palestinian Authority (PA) that President Obama's administration
is "disgusted" with Israel, a top aide to PA President Mahmoud Abbas told WND in an interview.
Nimr Hamad said the White House was disgusted that Israel is refusing to halt all settlement activity as a precondition for re-starting talks with the PA over the creation of a Palestinian state. "Settlement activity" refers to Jewish construction in the West Bank and eastern sections of Jerusalem.
Hamad repeated that the term "disgusted" was used more than once in recent meetings with U.S. envoys to describe the administration's attitude toward Israel. Hamad did not name the U.S. envoys using the terminology.
George Mitchell, Obama's envoy for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, just this week wrapped up a series of meetings with Israeli and Palestinian leaders over re-starting talks.
Senior PA sources told WND yesterday the Obama administration urged them to begin publicly pressuring Israel, starting in March, to immediately withdraw from key areas in the West Bank and peripheral eastern Jerusalem sections in which the Palestinians currently maintain administrative control.
The sources specified that as a confidence-building measure toward the PA, Israel will be asked by the Obama administration to hand over security control to territories designated in the 1993 Oslo Accords as Area B – referring to cities administered by the PA but largely controlled by Israeli security. The specific section of the Oslo Accords regarding control of Area B was finalized in 1995.
Separately, a top PA source, speaking on condition his name be withheld, told WND two weeks ago the Obama administration largely has adopted the positions of the PA to create a Palestinian state within two years based on the 1967 borders, meaning Israel would retreat from most of the West Bank and eastern sections of Jerusalem.
The official said Obama also accepted the PA position that Israeli-Palestinian negotiations begin where they left off under Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who went further than previous Israeli leaders in his concessions to the Palestinians.
Olmert reportedly offered the PA not only 95 percent of the West Bank and peripheral eastern Jerusalem neighborhoods but also other territories never before offered by any Israeli leader, including parts of the Israeli Negev desert bordering Gaza as well as sections of the Jordan Valley.
The official claimed the Obama administration will still support the announcement of a Palestinian state within two years.
READ IT HERE:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=112998
HowardCohodas
10-16-2009, 18:20
I wonder how my fellow Jews feel about their vote for Obama now. Last I brought the subject up, they were still in denial.
Remington Raidr
10-16-2009, 18:27
THIS will end badly.:eek:
Official: Obama 'disgusted' with Israel
Says president poised to press for withdrawal from strategic territory
The official claimed the Obama administration will still support the announcement of a Palestinian state within two years.
And so it begins.
Holly:munchin
Goggles Pizano
10-17-2009, 06:45
Just a thought; I wonder how long it will take before the dam cracks, and the people who feel duped begin screaming impeachment? :munchin
...a top aide to PA President Mahmoud Abbas...
Consider the source - Wishful thinking by the PA? - Maybe true...maybe not. :confused:
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Honest ....who isn't...... there not a thing that Israel produces that we import or use, or need for that matter; except the manipulation of the press, our election process, our entire foreign policy posture is related to their view point. We need to be their pawns, as it is better in their eyes that we sacrifice our youth for their cause then they sacrifice theirs.
What has Israel given us, what is the population in the US that can support such arrogance? Explain that to me, I’ll be fully attentive. How is it that a country with less 1% of the ethnicity can control 99% of the populace?
If Obama has the balls to say to Israel no more developments, He’ll be the first President since Eisenhower to free us from a foreign oppression without firing a shot.
I don't believe there is anything that Israel can do or not do which will satisfy the Palestinians or the rest of the Islamic World. Some believe there is an ideal agreement or formulae which can result in peace, I don't believe the Islam World wants that. Their goal is power, and Israel is just the lever they use to generate support allowing them to wage their war with somewhat popular support. They have to have a devil otherwise, their folks might wake up one day and say why are we living in this shit hole when the rest of the World is modern etc.
Honest ....who isn't...... there not a thing that Israel produces that we import or use, or need for that matter; except the manipulation of the press, our election process, our entire foreign policy posture is related to their view point. We need to be their pawns, as it is better in their eyes that we sacrifice our youth for their cause then they sacrifice theirs.
What has Israel given us, what is the population in the US that can support such arrogance? Explain that to me, I’ll be fully attentive. How is it that a country with less 1% of the ethnicity can control 99% of the populace?
If Obama has the balls to say to Israel no more developments, He’ll be the first President since Eisenhower to free us from a foreign oppression without firing a shot.
With the exception of importing goods, I think the above is overstating the situation. I'm sure both Israel and Jewish Americans affect our foreign policy to some degree. Jewish Americans have a right to, and Israel is an ally and hopefully our goals and there's are in many areas are similar. I do not believe we are pawns or that they manipulate our press. If that was true, why is Obama president?
It wasn't Israel that blew up the USS Cole or took down the World Trade Center. If there was no Israel, I still believe we would be having problems with the Islamic World. I mean there has only been a Jewish state since 1948.
Probably the one reason America is so supportive of Israel relates to our Judeo Christian heritage. Without that heritage, there is not the America we have today. To ignore this or discount it is folly.
Roguish Lawyer
10-18-2009, 05:37
Wow Penn. You left out control of the banks. :rolleyes:
Wow Penn. You left out control of the banks. :rolleyes: And diamonds...:D
Stay safe.
Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer
Wow Penn. You left out control of the banks. :rolleyes:
And Hollywood... :p
Richard
I didn't know Mel Gibson was a member here:D
Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.
Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.
The cell phone was developed in Israel by Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.
Most of the Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel.
The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.
Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.
Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.
The AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.
All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth. This from a country just 55 years young having started off life on a very frontiers-like basis, whose population had mostly just emerged from the devastating World War II years.
I've been meaning to vacation there for awhile also....:lifter
Stay safe.
HowardCohodas
10-18-2009, 08:57
Honest ....who isn't......
Your post strikes me as not very moderate for a moderator. Perhaps being Jewish has something to do with it.
Utah Bob
10-18-2009, 09:17
Honest ....who isn't.......
Me.
Don’t mistake my comment about Israel to be anti-Semitic: it is not!
It is anti Israel; IIRC there are several people serving life sentences for being involved in espionage on behalf of her; and against her best ally no less.
Please don’t mistake religion for Politics.
I have witnessed what happens when you mix them.
dirtyshirt
10-18-2009, 10:57
Don’t mistake my comment about Israel to be anti-Semitic: it is not!
It is anti Israel; IIRC there are several people serving life sentences for being involved in espionage on behalf of her; and against her best ally no less.
Please don’t mistake religion for Politics.
I have witnessed what happens when you mix them.
What about the USS Liberty? No one in Israel has ever answered for that,and no one in the U.S. has attempted to push the issue. Several U.S. Servicemen died and it is all swept under the rug,because Israel is "our ally".
Never thought much of Israel,and I do not think they are much of an "ally".
Probably the one reason America is so supportive of Israel relates to our Judeo Christian heritage. Without that heritage, there is not the America we have today. To ignore this or discount it is folly.
I never really understood this until a friend laid it out for me.
The "Rapture" can not happen unless the Jewish people occupy the "Holy Land".
A large portion of those in power are Christians, many others with power and influence are Jewish.
Makes sense that we would have a policy of supporting Israel.
My .02
Surf n Turf
10-18-2009, 16:14
Israel is an ally and hopefully our goals and there's are in many areas are similar.
Dennisw,
Therein lies the problem, for both America & Isreal. Israel’s interests are it’s own (or should be). Ditto for America. Unfortunately, we have comingled interests, and sometimes that works out bad for both participants. Israel now feels constrained from taking action against Iran because of American “interest”. Israel has had the appropriate weaponry for over a year, but Netanyahu has not forcefully pursued a policy of changing the Mullah’s mind or deeds. What is “good” for America is not necessarily good for Israel, and vice versa.
“It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it” - George Washington farewell address, September 17, 1796
Makes sense that we would have a policy of supporting Israel.
AxeMan,
It would appear that the American Jewish community does not agree with you. 80% of the Jewish vote went to Øbama, who, with any cursory review was aligned with the PA on many issues, and by association (think Rev Wright / Calypso Louie) anti-Israel. While McCain was extremely pro-Israel.
It would appear the American Jewish community voted on Israel, and Israel lost. Groucho’s uncle won.
The Obama formula, based not on an American or Israeli plan but rather on the “Saudi Peace Initiative,”
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11179
THIS will end badly.:eek:
Remington Raidr,
Yes it will. Israel will eventually have to strike for “self preservation”, and will probably stand alone in a fight against the Muslim world (and it finances). America will “reevaluate” its “foreign entanglements” and “not pick” a “favorite”.
And it goes round and round
SnT
Your post strikes me as not very moderate for a moderator.Moderators should NOT have and/or post their opinions?
Perhaps being Jewish has something to do with it.No one knows you're Jewish unless you inform them thus, this being a QP board you should understand that; one's religious belief comes behind an ODAs "mission(s)" as a whole.:cool:
Stay safe.
Dennisw,
Therein lies the problem, for both America & Isreal. Israel’s interests are it’s own (or should be). Ditto for America. Unfortunately, we have comingled interests, and sometimes that works out bad for both participants. Israel now feels constrained from taking action against Iran because of American “interest”. Israel has had the appropriate weaponry for over a year, but Netanyahu has not forcefully pursued a policy of changing the Mullah’s mind or deeds. What is “good” for America is not necessarily good for Israel, and vice versa.
“It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it” - George Washington farewell address, September 17, 1796
Surf
Far be it for me to disagree with Washington, but I believe in our history those horses have already left the barn. We have formed many alliances throughout our history where mutual goals have overridden the sage words of first president. From the allied efforts in WWI and WWII to the current NATO alliance. One could argue that these alliances are not permanent, but they have already lasted close to 100 hundred years. If Washington was alive now he might look at the current World and modify his original philosophy. Maybe not. As you say, our relationship with Israel may hurt us both.
AxeMan,
It would appear that the American Jewish community does not agree with you. 80% of the Jewish vote went to Øbama, who, with any cursory review was aligned with the PA on many issues, and by association (think Rev Wright / Calypso Louie) anti-Israel. While McCain was extremely pro-Israel.
It would appear the American Jewish community voted on Israel, and Israel lost. Groucho’s uncle won.
The Obama formula, based not on an American or Israeli plan but rather on the “Saudi Peace Initiative,”
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11179
I believe the above is the argument I alluded too. If Israel and the American Jews are martinets and we are mere puppets, why is Obama our Presdient? In fact, it appears Israel and the American Jews for the most part are at odds when it comes to many important issues. Essentially, Penn asked why do we support Israel. I believe his real question is why do we support Israel when it does not seem always to be in our best interest to do so. I agreed with him regarding imports, but Guy pointed out that this is not really true. We do not import physical goods per se, but we do import intellectual propery. Who is to argue which is more valuable.
I believe we support Israel foremost because many Americans are Christians and believe it is our duty to support/protect the Jews. Secondly, as Americans we tend to pull for the little guy. We don't like the idea of folks picking on the little guy even if he happens to be obnoxious at times. Lastly, I'm sure there is a certain amount of truth in what Penn says about there being a lobbying effort which has an impact on how we as Americans view Israel. However, I do not believe the latter reason is the primary cause of our support. Whether or not our support of Israel is a good thing for America, that's for history to confirm or deny. Personally, I'm not Jewish, but I am a Christian. Ultimately I believe Jesus Christ controls history and that Nations rise and fall according their volition and actions subject to his grace and discretion. My admiration for him and his sacrifical life is only rivaled by my admiration of the men and women who put themselves in harms way on our behalf.
As Miquel Cervantes said, "Freedom and honor are two of the most precious gifts the earth holds in its bosom, and a man ought to die for either one." I find honor in supporting Israel. If that makes me a pawn, so be it.
The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.
GUY, so what you telling me is Israel no longer has a need for HUMINT. She has hardwired our defense infrastructure; great!!
Now, I have good reason to withdraw from this discussion(?), without referencing Darwin, myth systems, or my blatant ignorance of the rapture, not to mention my innate ability to step on my prodigious Johnston.
Bill Harsey
10-19-2009, 07:01
Your post strikes me as not very moderate for a moderator.
Sir,
To the best of my knowledge moderators here are under no restrictions to be moderate and are simply held to the same standards of behavior that any other member here is.
Roguish Lawyer
10-19-2009, 16:13
Although I do believe that Penn's position is xenophobic and typically taken by anti-semitic people, I want to make clear that he is not an anti-semitic person. I have spent time with him personally and am quite confident of that.
And while it is true that Hollywood is largely controlled by Jews, gays are totally taking over. :D
All this being said, I think it is important to understand why Penn is wrong on this issue.
Honest ....who isn't...... there not a thing that Israel produces that we import or use, or need for that matter;
This isn't true -- Guy gave some examples. But even if it were, what's the point? The Arabs have oil so we should side with them? I guess we also should side with Chavez and screw our friends in Colombia, for example? I submit that the Israelis should be our friends because they are like us. It's a western-style democracy with a western culture. Very diffferent from its neighbors. Put aside resources and religion and everything else for a second, and look at the region, and I submit it would be easy to pick out who we like and who we don't.
except the manipulation of the press, our election process, our entire foreign policy posture is related to their view point. We need to be their pawns, as it is better in their eyes that we sacrifice our youth for their cause then they sacrifice theirs.
What has Israel given us, what is the population in the US that can support such arrogance? Explain that to me, I’ll be fully attentive. How is it that a country with less 1% of the ethnicity can control 99% of the populace?
If Obama has the balls to say to Israel no more developments, He’ll be the first President since Eisenhower to free us from a foreign oppression without firing a shot.
You really think our foreign policy revolves around Israel? I seem to recall something that happened on 9/11/01 that got us involved in the current war. It's actually pretty insulting to America to suggest that we just do what Israel or American Jews want. Are you now going to say the same thing about Taiwan or other allies with ethnic relatives in the US?
If the point here is that our support of Israel caused 9/11 or other terrorist activities, I think you need to read about the Barbary pirates. The struggle against radical Islam (or Islam period, some believe) was required by the nature and goals of the enemy, not by Israel's existence. That is a fiction being used by the enemy to undermine our resolve.
As for Israel not being willing to sacrifice its own troops, I think that is belied by history. Note that Israel has never asked for American troops to defend Israel. Money and weapons, sure, but not troops.
I started typing this in the morning and just had the chance to finish now, so I'll be interested to see if others have replied in the meantime.
HowardCohodas
10-19-2009, 18:20
This past week Dr. Julie Galambush was the visiting scholar to our community sponsored by the Walsh University Institute for Jewish Catholic Studies Fall Symposium. One of the talks I attended was titled "What Every Jew Should Know About Christianity and What Every Christian Should Know About Judaism.” One of the points she made was that non-Jews frequently fail to realize that being Jewish may reflect an ethnicity or a religious affiliation or both.
She has a lot of credibility in this matter both as a scholar and as a Christian who converted to Judaism.
There were several comments in this thread that seemed to exemplify this ethnicity/religion confusion.
My minor for my MA was NELC (Near Eastern Language and Cultures - Hebraic Studies) and one thing I quickly realized is that Judaism and Israel - in their nearly infinite variety - are as complex a set of issues for Jews and Israelis as they are for the rest of the world.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Honest ....who isn't...... there not a thing that Israel produces that we import or use, or need for that matter...
I'm a loyal Marriott customer. I stay atleast at 10-15 different ones throughout the year, and noticed that all of there bathroom linens (wash clothes and towels) are "Made in Israel".
I found this interesting when i first noticed and wondered "why Israel?". Why not a cheaper provider?
RL and likeminded others thank you for attempting to clear the air; Yes, I am extremely pissed off about our national symbiotic relationship with Israel. (notice the capitalization)
It has been a growing concern, (over years really) of the Arabs and the Israelis inability to reach a settlement, that in my limited scope, is the root cause for the endless strife. (which is also an economic engine).
In that regard, the following seems to be true: open any discussion about the Israelis and you are considered anti Jewish/Semitic …I find that strangely coincidental that the exact same condition exist for the phuckin Muslims. Spare me your tolerance and God is on our side speech…it’s about territory and resources...power. (WTF now this 85’ 1st cru Corton Renardes is running low)
I am personal sick of the religiosity attached to the political.
I Made A Mistake
I reached up into the top of the closet
and took out a pair of blue panties
and showed them to her and
asked "are these yours?"
and she looked and said,
"no, those belong to a dog."
she left after that and I haven't seen
her since. she's not at her place.
I keep going there, leaving notes stuck
into the door. I go back and the notes
are still there. I take the Maltese cross
cut it down from my car mirror, tie it
to her doorknob with a shoelace, leave
a book of poems.
when I go back the next night everything
is still there.
I keep searching the streets for that
blood-wine battleship she drives
with a weak battery, and the doors
hanging from broken hinges.
I drive around the streets
an inch away from weeping,
ashamed of my sentimentality and
possible love.
a confused old man driving in the rain
wondering where the good luck
went.
by Charles Bukowski
Roguish Lawyer
10-19-2009, 19:12
In that regard, the following seems to be true: open any discussion about the Israelis and you are considered anti Jewish/Semitic …I find that strangely coincidental that the exact same condition exist for the phuckin Muslims.
Some people are like that. I'm not, and I welcome rational discussion about any aspect of our foreign policy. There is no question that Jewish political influence in this country has a lot to do with our support of Israel over the past 30 years or so. But there also are good reasons for that policy IMHO. Bring it on if you want, Penn. Stand up for your beliefs! :munchin
My belief system has no relevancy here, as I haven’t had a conversation with the divine, though I did drink myself into a visionary contortion with Keith Richards and Steven Spielberg at Capirians…Keith bought!!! Also I do not possess the personal inclination, to control your choice processes with mist, smoke or mirrors, but I would like to cut the heart out of a wild free range Pheasant and slow roast it over apple wood coal like an Inca King holding it aloft in some sacrificial communion manner uttering to no one in particular: Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, as the moon fell and the sun rose….
Time to go watch one of my favorite movies - Inherit The Wind.
Richard
Chris Cram
10-19-2009, 20:07
What about the USS Liberty? No one in Israel has ever answered for that,and no one in the U.S. has attempted to push the issue. Several U.S. Servicemen died and it is all swept under the rug,because Israel is "our ally".
Never thought much of Israel,and I do not think they are much of an "ally".
There are those who say that the USS Liberty was being used to monitor Israeli traffic, and then sharing that intel...
But then why would we do something like that. :munchin
Richard, my favorite part...
Suppose God whispered into a Bertram Cate's ear that an un-Brady thought could still be holy? Must men go to jail because they find themselves at odds with a self-appointed prophet?
We must not abandon faith! Faith is the most important thing!
Then why did God plague us with the capacity to think? Mr. Brady, why do you deny the one thing that sets above the other animals? What other merit have we? The elephant is larger, the horse stronger and swifter, the butterfly more beautiful, the mosquito more prolific, even the sponge is more durable. Or does a sponge think?
I don't know. I'm a man, not a sponge!
Do you think a sponge thinks?
If the Lord wishes a sponge to think, it thinks!
Does a man have the same privilege as a sponge?
Of course!
[Gesturing towards the defendant, Bertram Cates] Then this man wishes to have the same privilege of a sponge, he wishes to think!
A bit off topic, but the first and oldest Jewish congregation in North America, Shearith Israel, was founded in 1654 (http://www.shearithisrael.org/folder/learning_history_new.html) in New York. Three members (http://www.shearithisrael.org/folder/general_info_1654.html) of the congregation were also original members and founders of the New York Stock Exchange(NYSE). The 'Buttonwood Agreement', signed by the 24 original members (http://www.nyse.com/pdfs/originalnysemembers.pdf) on May 17, 1792, established the NYSE.
I always enjoyed thinking about this one from the wise-ass reporter:
We're growing a strange crop of agnostics this year.
- E. K. Hornbeck
Utah Bob
10-20-2009, 08:34
My belief system has no relevancy here, as I haven’t had a conversation with the divine, though I did drink myself into a visionary contortion with Keith Richards and Steven Spielberg at Capirians…Keith bought!!! Also I do not possess the personal inclination, to control your choice processes with mist, smoke or mirrors, but I would like to cut the heart out of a wild free range Pheasant and slow roast it over apple wood coal like an Inca King holding it aloft in some sacrificial communion manner uttering to no one in particular: Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, as the moon fell and the sun rose….
Shameles namedropper!:D
I saw The Divine Miss M once. From a distance though.
Free range pheasants have teeny hearts. Difficult to roast.
I would suggest a free range peasant.
;)
I always enjoyed thinking about this one from the wise-ass reporter:
We're growing a strange crop of agnostics this year.
- E. K. HornbeckHe must've been around some of our conversations and viewed some of these rituals before a patrol.:D
Stay safe.
Roguish Lawyer
10-20-2009, 13:49
There are those who say that the USS Liberty was being used to monitor Israeli traffic, and then sharing that intel...
But then why would we do something like that. :munchin
At the time of the USS Liberty incident, we were closer to Jordan than Israel . . .
As an American, I do believe in our exceptionalism and that we are the most benevolent hegemon in history, no apologies. With our resources and sole possession of nuclear technology there was nothing to stop us from taking over the world in 1945. Perhaps I’m simplistic but when I hear folks whine about America taking oil from the Middle East, have they forgotten we made the decision to pay them for it instead of just taking it, how different would the world have been if Stalin had first developed the bomb in 1945?
There was a movie a few years back about the Battle for Jerusalem during the Crusades, in which Belian is negotiating surrender to the Saracens. He threatens to destroy the entire city, every brick, every faith’s religious sites. Saladin replies, “Perhaps it would be best for all of us if you did just that.” I don’t have any edge in arguing the merits of any one faith over another; to me they are all vulnerable to manipulation by evil men once they cross over into the political realm.
People have been fighting for resources in this part of the world with religion as an excuse for ages. Israel is a US ally, with similar culture to our own in the form of modern western liberal democracy. I don’t think they are such things as “friends” at the national level. I don’t blindly agree with everything Israel does or stands for, nor do I think all Palestinian claims on the region are wholly sans merit . Israel acts in her self interest, just as we do, and it’s in America’s best interests to align herself with this state relative to her neighbors, in this region, at this time. If half a century from now the Middle East is composed of numerous secular liberal democracies, Israeli relevance to our national interest will wane.
I don’t think we currently favor Israel anymore than Japan or Germany, in fact from a military perspective we are committed to fight for Japan or our NATO allies if attacked, are we similarly obligated to Israel? We haven’t intervened in any of her wars to date. But, unlike Germany, the fact is Israel’s neighbors are not modern liberal democracies, and cultural similarities aside she is regionally powerful, stable, and currently the only natural ally in this area.
As long as it’s in America’s national interest we should support Israel. My disgust is with any leader who places his own hubris, ineptitude, and narcissism ahead of our nation’s best interests.
After one look at this planet any visitor from outer space would say, "I want to see the manager."
-William S. Burroughs
greenberetTFS
10-20-2009, 16:49
My belief system has no relevancy here, as I haven’t had a conversation with the divine, though I did drink myself into a visionary contortion with Keith Richards and Steven Spielberg at Capirians…Keith bought!!! Also I do not possess the personal inclination, to control your choice processes with mist, smoke or mirrors, but I would like to cut the heart out of a wild free range Pheasant and slow roast it over apple wood coal like an Inca King holding it aloft in some sacrificial communion manner uttering to no one in particular: Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, as the moon fell and the sun rose….
Jeeze Penn,that was deep..............:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
Roguish Lawyer
10-20-2009, 17:49
Penn, you're not going to start spitting in my food now, are you? :eek: LOL
Dozer523
10-20-2009, 18:33
Shameles namedropper!:D
I saw The Divine Miss M once. From a distance though.
Free range pheasants have teeny hearts. Difficult to roast.
I would suggest a free range peasant.
;) No Bob. I don't think the free range peasant is very tasty this time of year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0
"Oh very nice, And how'd you get that? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperial dogma which perpetrates the economic and social differences in our society.":D
"Now we see the violence inherent in the system. Come see the violence inherent in the system. Help, I'm being repressed! What a giveaway, did you hear that? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me?'
Peasant hunting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R91aI2CM8M&feature=related
Richard
Utah Bob
10-21-2009, 05:01
No Bob. I don't think the free range peasant is very tasty this time of year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0
"Oh very nice, And how'd you get that? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperial dogma which perpetrates the economic and social differences in our society.":D
"Now we see the violence inherent in the system. Come see the violence inherent in the system. Help, I'm being repressed! What a giveaway, did you hear that? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me?'
One of my favorites.:D:D
Roguish Lawyer
10-21-2009, 11:49
Peasant hunting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R91aI2CM8M&feature=related
Richard
One of my favorites
frostfire
10-21-2009, 12:36
As Miquel Cervantes said, "Freedom and honor are two of the most precious gifts the earth holds in its bosom, and a man ought to die for either one." I find honor in supporting Israel. If that makes me a pawn, so be it.
dennisw, I empathize with your stance with neither condemning, nor condoning it. The way of our belief (theology) determines the way of our thinking (philosophy), which determines the way of our living (morality). With enough 'us,' then morality becomes law. Since the heart is deceitful, we may believe in one, yet act another aka. being a fool. In the end, we still have to choose.
LongWire
10-21-2009, 20:17
None of this changes that fact that Israel still receives $10Mil from us Daily.
Nor does it change the fact that a lot of Palestinians Sold their valuable land to the Israelis and then want to claim that it was stolen from them.
There is always more than meets the eye......on both sides.
HowardCohodas
10-21-2009, 21:36
None of this changes that fact that Israel still receives $10Mil from us Daily.
Nor does it change the fact that a lot of Palestinians Sold their valuable land to the Israelis and then want to claim that it was stolen from them.
There is always more than meets the eye......on both sides.
Recall that the agreement to provide foreign aid to Israel has another component. An equivalent support for Egypt.
LongWire
10-21-2009, 21:46
Recall that the agreement to provide foreign aid to Israel has another component. An equivalent support for Egypt.
See, Good to know..........Even brokered peace has a price tag, I'm glad that We can Foot the Bill..............
Guess that's why you don't see Egypt hammering us in the press.
Even brokered peace has a price tag, I'm glad that We can Foot the Bill..............
I'm not at all sure we can foot the bill. We're borrowing from China, Saudi Arabia and others, paying them interest, debasing our currency, all so we can give the money to others so they won't fight each other.
An analogy seems to be for a person (Sam?) to go out, get a cash advance on his credit card, and then dole the money out to Joe and Bill so they won't fight. How long can Sam keep doing this?
More pointedly, why should Sam, in the case of the analogy, or the U.S. in real life, actually do this? This is not a rhetorical question.
Let's suppose that Israel is destroyed by massed Arab and Egyptian armies. Should I care? Why should I care? Again, I ask these questions seriously.
Conversely, let's suppose Israel vaporizes Cairo and Damascus. Given that they would probably be airbursts and that the prevailing winds won't dump much fallout on San Antonio, why should I care?
The only thing I can see is that OPEC might use the oil weapon again, as they did in 1973. But oil is fungible, so if they sell to anyone, we will ultimately get some. And their own spending requirements suggest they cannot long withhold the flow.
So...in the spirit of exploring national policy, and with no disrespect to anyone...why are we jumping through hoops to attain peace in the Middle East? Why not tell them to fight to their heart's content and be done with it?
Slantwire
10-22-2009, 07:51
More pointedly, why should Sam, in the case of the analogy, or the U.S. in real life, actually do this? This is not a rhetorical question.
Let's suppose that Israel is destroyed by massed Arab and Egyptian armies. Should I care? Why should I care?
I've always thought that our support for Israel was due to (at least in large part) a sense of post-Holocaust duty. We felt bad for what they went through, so we pledge to protect them going forward. Or maybe that's my 80s / 90s public schooling talking.
Conversely, let's suppose Israel vaporizes Cairo and Damascus. Given that they would probably be airbursts and that the prevailing winds won't dump much fallout on San Antonio, why should I care?
We as a people do tend to care about human rights, and avoidable death. Things like the Rape of Nanking, the Holocaust, Prague 1968, Tiananmen Square, Rwanda and Darfur bother us. Whatever the government policy, there are a lot of people in Egypt and Syria who just want to go to work and raise their children.
Note: I do think that we were right in bombing Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. And if Israel were attacked and annihilated their aggressor in response, I'd be hard pressed to fault them. But we do prefer to find a solution that doesn't involve massive civilian casualties.
The only thing I can see is that OPEC might use the oil weapon again, as they did in 1973. But oil is fungible, so if they sell to anyone, we will ultimately get some. And their own spending requirements suggest they cannot long withhold the flow.
But it would hurt in the interim. And we all know how much fortitude modern American has when it comes to inconvenience. Especially in re-election years.
6.8SPC_DUMP
10-22-2009, 08:58
I don't have the information needed to agree with the extent of Mr. Penn and his prodigious johnson's claims. But, I agree that desire to forsake America's best interest for any other nation's, is a bad Ju-Ju.
I hope all America has done for Israel commands a level of loyalty and gratitude - if not in their eyes - then certainly in ours.
We've invested a great deal and continue to do so. Didn't we include Israel in the missile defense plan instead of Europe? Aren't we rush ordering bunker busters? I think our separate goals are still in line to necessitate a strategic co-dependence.
Some of my best friends as a kid and now are Jewish. Some of the smartest people I've worked and studied with are Jewish. Ect., ect., ADL disclaimer...
But American Jews should be dissuaded from spying on the US for Israel. Fox News did a report on this in 2001 and the NSA lays it out:Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo)
"According to a U.S. intelligence agency, the government of Israel conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the U.S. of any U.S. ally." -General Accounting Office Report
Recall that the agreement to provide foreign aid to Israel has another component. An equivalent support for Egypt.
Disseminating notions of our total aid to Egypt being equal to Israel is ridiculous.
Let's look at some numbers. LINK to PDF (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s1257.pdf)
Egypt, for 2007, was $1,761 million.
Israel, for 2007, was $2,373 million.
So, let's add those together. We get $4,134 million. Or $12.52 per American citizen, assuming 330,000,000 Americans.
OK, so what am I (or you, good reader) getting that makes my $12.52 worthwhile?
While I suppose that the recipients appreciate - and perhaps even need - the money, we have folks in the U.S. that do too. We could instantly create about 91,000 jobs at $45,000 each with the aid to Egypt and Israel. We could hire a lot of police officers or teachers for that. We could train a lot of new doctors if we created full-coverage scholarships. Or, we could get really radical and cut our new debt....
And, if we believe that the U.S. is in fact a force for good in the world, do we not have a moral and ethical duty to maintain the U.S. as a strong nation? How does spending more borrowed money contribute to this goal?
HowardCohodas
10-22-2009, 15:31
Disseminating notions of our total aid to Egypt being equal to Israel is ridiculous.
I did not say equal, I said equivalent. The ratio agreed upon in the treaty that established this arrangement is 3:2.
If you add the money we give to the Palestinians, you may be better informed and have a better perspective.
Had I chosen my words more carefully, perhaps I could have avoided your rebuke. I'll leave it to you, or others to do the arithmetic required for the previous paragraph.
HowardCohodas
10-22-2009, 15:35
OK, so what am I (or you, good reader) getting that makes my $12.52 worthwhile?
While I suppose that the recipients appreciate - and perhaps even need - the money, we have folks in the U.S. that do too. We could instantly create about 91,000 jobs at $45,000 each with the aid to Egypt and Israel. We could hire a lot of police officers or teachers for that. We could train a lot of new doctors if we created full-coverage scholarships. Or, we could get really radical and cut our new debt....
And, if we believe that the U.S. is in fact a force for good in the world, do we not have a moral and ethical duty to maintain the U.S. as a strong nation? How does spending more borrowed money contribute to this goal?
I'm always amused at "false choice" arguments.
And, just what do you think it "costs" a company to employ an individual for $45,000 per year?
I don't have the information needed to agree with the extent of Mr. Penn and his prodigious johnson's claims.
Weelllllll...must not be as prodigious as claimed if the references made to it are posted in the diminutive case. :rolleyes:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I'm always amused at "false choice" arguments.
And, just what do you think it "costs" a company to employ an individual for $45,000 per year?
False choice? I would have termed it an illustration.
The cost is usually about 25% over and above salary. In this instance, the income would represent taxable W-2 income, so there would be some recapture through FICA and Social Security withholding.
However - that's all beside the point. However the money is spent, it would be spent on Americans and their direct needs instead of on foreign governments and citizens. Furthermore, there is the possibility of not spending it at all, thus reducing the deficit.
Any thoughts on why I should be pleased to spend my $12.52 on them instead of on tacos and coffee for me and some friends?
6.8SPC_DUMP
10-22-2009, 17:46
I did not say equal, I said equivalent. The ratio agreed upon in the treaty that established this arrangement is 3:2.
If you add the money we give to the Palestinians, you may be better informed and have a better perspective.
Had I chosen my words more carefully, perhaps I could have avoided your rebuke. I'll leave it to you, or others to do the arithmetic required for the previous paragraph.
If you told me what an "off the books" nuclear arsenal goes for I'd be better informed and have a better perspective. But even then hard pressed to put the sum in perspective. High hopes for a lasting and mutually beneficial partnership is about all I'm good for; after just a whiff of how crucial "success or failure" could be for both parties.
As for "false choice" arguments - I'm happy to hear any discussion on the hard choices we face today.
GratefulCitizen
10-22-2009, 21:12
Maybe Israel's neighbors just need "breathing room".
If we let them have Poland...err... I mean Israel, maybe they'll leave us alone.
My view of Israel and certain other countries (Taiwan is a good example) is that America uses "proxies" to project power around the world and indirectly look out for our interests. These proxies need to meet certain requirements; a fairly transparent society with popular assent and representation, basic human freedoms, etc. Strong as we are, we cannot handle everything. Using nations whose interests fall along similar lines is the next best thing.
Let's say we back out on supporting Israel- REALLY back out. Not just on funding, also on selling them arms and equipment, support in the UN, moralistic support. Then let's say that due to this Israel is (somehow; I also believe in supporting Israel because her children are STRONG) destroyed by the Arabic countries surrounding it.
Is this in our best interest? Do you really believe it will stop there? It is in the nature of a society of conquest to continue in this conquest until stopped. Maybe in the short term we would see fewer direct problems (imagine an Ottoman-Empire type consolidation war following Israel's destruction-following the same lines of thought, who cares?) but leaving a foe to become stronger while focusing only on the pleasures bough by ignoring that danger is hedonism, pure and simple. Something that America already has enough of.
We intervene, because we must. We support likeminded countries because doing so is in our best interest. I believe that our system of government is the best one ever created, and countries who attempt to follow our example need to be supported because it is the RIGHT thing to do, not necessarily the easy or expedient thing.
No, we may not always see eye-to-eye, and the benefits may not be more dollars in our pockets or anything that tangible. But freedom and peace always have a price, whether in material goods or blood. Myself, I'd rather pay 5 cents a day and see a free, democratic society continue than any of the possible alternatives.
LongWire
10-25-2009, 02:16
On it's face, I care more about supporting a partner who would stand with us such as Israel, than supporting Egypt, who given a choice on who to stand with would probably not end up in our favor.
We don't have to agree on everything, but you still help when you can. People tend to remember their true friends in good light, and maybe in the future they can return a favor. Thats just MHO...........
pheepster
10-25-2009, 03:49
OK, so what am I (or you, good reader) getting that makes my $12.52 worthwhile?
...since there aren't any jobs around here, looks like you can double your share.:eek:
Go Devil
10-25-2009, 09:30
My view of Israel and certain other countries (Taiwan is a good example) is that America uses "proxies" to project power around the world and indirectly look out for our interests. These proxies need to meet certain requirements; a fairly transparent society with popular assent and representation, basic human freedoms, etc. Strong as we are, we cannot handle everything. Using nations whose interests fall along similar lines is the next best thing.
Let's say we back out on supporting Israel- REALLY back out. Not just on funding, also on selling them arms and equipment, support in the UN, moralistic support. Then let's say that due to this Israel is (somehow; I also believe in supporting Israel because her children are STRONG) destroyed by the Arabic countries surrounding it.
Is this in our best interest? Do you really believe it will stop there? It is in the nature of a society of conquest to continue in this conquest until stopped. Maybe in the short term we would see fewer direct problems (imagine an Ottoman-Empire type consolidation war following Israel's destruction-following the same lines of thought, who cares?) but leaving a foe to become stronger while focusing only on the pleasures bough by ignoring that danger is hedonism, pure and simple. Something that America already has enough of.
We intervene, because we must. We support likeminded countries because doing so is in our best interest. I believe that our system of government is the best one ever created, and countries who attempt to follow our example need to be supported because it is the RIGHT thing to do, not necessarily the easy or expedient thing.
No, we may not always see eye-to-eye, and the benefits may not be more dollars in our pockets or anything that tangible. But freedom and peace always have a price, whether in material goods or blood. Myself, I'd rather pay 5 cents a day and see a free, democratic society continue than any of the possible alternatives.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.