View Full Version : Soldier suspended from school
Plutarch
10-11-2009, 21:55
http://www.wten.com/global/story.asp?s=11283345
Soldier suspended from school
Posted: Oct 8, 2009 04:26 PM
A NEWS10 EXCLUSIVE
By MARK O'BRIEN
LANSINGBURGH -- High school senior Matthew Whalen is the kind of student any parent would want.
He's an Eagle Scout, on the honor roll, taking Advanced Placement classes, and never been in trouble with the law. He's received commendations from the City of Troy and the Boy Scouts of America for saving a woman's life, and this past summer, he completed Army basic training. All of it was accomplished before the age of 17.
"I'm just trying to do what I can while I can," Matthew says.
His goal is to attend the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, a dream since he was in grade school.
"I have a first-grade yearbook that says I want to be driving tanks in the Army," Matthew says. "I mean, this is something that I know I've always wanted to do."
But the dream could be in jeopardy, thanks to a two-inch pocket knife that officials at Lansingburgh Senior High School found in Matthew's locked car last month. The pocket knife was a gift from his grandfather, Robert Whalen, who's the Hoosick Falls Police Chief. Matthew says he kept the knife in a side compartment and never tried showing it off or threatening anyone with it. Instead it was a part of the survival kit that was his car.
"My car is designed in a way that if I ever broke down, I'd be OK," Whalen explains. "I have a sleeping bag. I have bottled water. I have an MRE. I believe it's better to be prepared and not need it than need it and not have it."
Matthew says school officials approached him on Sept. 21, asking if he had a weapon on him. When Matthew answered he did not, he says the officials asked if he had a knife in his car. Matthew said it was a pocket knife, and took officials to his car when asked. He also turned over the pocket knife when asked.
The Lansingburgh Central School District has a zero-tolerance policy on weapons. According to the district's Codes of Conduct, students are not allowed to have "a weapon of any kind" on school grounds. Even though a pocket knife is not considered a weapon under New York State penal code, the district also prohibits students from possessing anything "that reasonably can be considered a weapon."
According to Matthew, the school suspended him for five days, during which time a Superintendent's hearing was held to determine the extent of his punishment. Matthew's family contends only the high school's principal and athletic director were present, not the Superintendent or the assistant principal who initially suspended Matthew. And despite a letter from Matthew's Scout Master explaining how a pocket knife is a common tool for scouts to have, the district suspended Matthew for another 15 days. The Whalens say they received no explanation as to why, and they claim there was no opportunity to ask.
"I want him to have fair treatment based on his character," says Matthew's father, Bryan Whalen. "It just totally baffles me that they would go after this when they have much bigger fish to fry."
The Whalens say during the Superintendent's hearing, officials admitted that Matthew cooperated fully, didn't have the pocket knife on him, had no intention of using it, and never threatened anyone with it. "They'd already made their decision," Whalen's father says.
In a statement to NEWS10, Superintendent George J. Goodwin says, "We do not comment on discipline related to an individual student. Our policies are clear that weapons are not permitted on school premises and subject to disciplinary consequences."
Legal expert Thomas Carr, of Tully Rinckey PLLC, says school districts are within their rights to impose and enforce safety policies, even if a pocket knife is not considered a weapon under New York State penal law. But he also says such school rules can quickly become so-called "gray areas" that leave the meaning of what's considered a weapon open ended.
"If this 17-year-old is driving his car to school," Carr says, "let's face it, the tire iron in the trunk to change the wheel is much more of a deadly weapon than a one-and-a-half inch blade knife."
Carr also says the Whalens might have grounds to pursue legal action against the district if Matthew felt he had no choice but to allow school officials to search his car.
At this point, the Whalens are not sure when or if they will sue the district. Instead, they want the district to reinstate Matthew immediately and remove this from his official student record.
"He needs to be doing the application for his admission to West Point right now," Bryan Whalen says. "They're delaying that, and that could be very costly for him."
Matthew says he wants to follow in the military footsteps of his father and grandfather. His grandfather, Robert Whalen, received two Purple Hearts for his service in the Vietnam War. Bryan Whalen served in Operation Iraqi Freedom and at Ground Zero, as his unit was on the scene by the evening of Sept. 11, 2001. He's also received the Soldier's Medal from the U.S. Army, and he pulled survivors from a burning helicopter that had crashed at the Stratton Air National Guard Base during an air show crash in 1991.
Matthew guesses a student must have told school officials, but he doesn't know who did it or why. His father thinks it might have been a prank to see Matthew get a little heat from administrators and that the intent was for it to never get this far.
"It's just plain wrong of what they've done," he says. "It isn't a weapon!"
But the family feels the district overreacted, if not for suspending Matthew in the first place, then for adding an additional 15 days to the original suspension.
"If they had told me, 'Take this out of your car,' I would have said alright, and it never would have been an issue," Matthew says. "I was upset with it, but I can understand that. They have the zero-tolerance rule."
The district provides a tutor for Matthew for 90 minutes every day; he's banned from stepping on school grounds for any reason whatsoever, including assignments and sporting events. Matthew says it's hard to cram more than six hours of work into his tutor time, and he says his work is not being graded until he returns to school. All he wants is to return to class.
"The rest of my life could be affected by this," he says.
HowardCohodas
10-11-2009, 22:07
"Zero Tolerance" in schools is an attempt to remove critical thinking from an institution devoted to the teaching of critical thinking.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." --- Albert Einstein
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." --- Albert Einstein
Pretty much explains this issue to me.
The Reaper
10-11-2009, 22:37
Yet another case where the "may we search your car" response is bungled.
In all cases, the answer is, "Not unless you have a warrant".
TR
Public school
Need we say more?
Defender968
10-12-2009, 07:07
Yet another case where the "may we search your car" response is bungled.
In all cases, the answer is, "Not unless you have a warrant".
TR
Absolutely agree, I think there's probably more to this story than the article says though, sounds like maybe another student had a grudge, how else would they know he had a knife in the car, unless there is an anti-military bias in the school, unless of course these folks were approaching every student with these questions. Either way it kills me they are punishing this kid for being honest and respecting their authority. These administrators/teacher need a lesson in improvised weapons, I wonder if they've ever seen someone beaten with a tire iron like the article says, or stabbed with a writing implement, or hell a hair pick for that matter, anything can be a weapon if the wielder decides to use it as such. I understand not having knives in school….mostly…..but to say it can’t be in the car, is downright ridiculous. What about the baseball players or golfer in school, can they bring their bats/club to school, both of which can be used as devastating weapons much more so than a 1.5 inch bladed knife.
Yet another case where the "may we search your car" response is bungled.
In all cases, the answer is, "Not unless you have a warrant".
TR
You would not believe how many Bags get searched by police. Just by asking to.
Yes there is definitely a big Gap in the above story. Why were they asking him if he had a Weapon. There has to be a reason. He could be the loner Kid most likely to go postal for all we know. His parents think he's a great kid, all parents do.
Good thing they caught this guy
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?_r=1
And that little girl with the Birthday cake. The teacher used the knife to cut the cake and then turned her in.
Public school - no brains just indoctrination.
While the above mentioned kids did have a "weapon" remember the stories of kids kicked out for pictures of guns and the one with a GI Joe plastic toy gun about 2" long?
Utah Bob
10-12-2009, 07:44
Then there was that honor roll JROTC girl up in Denver who got booted for having her squad's inert drill rifles in her car. The national public outcry forced the school to revoke her suspension.
Another supporting example of the Theory of Unintended Consequences.
The Zero Tolerance legislation related to weapons, drugs, bullying, and violence in schools came about in response by legislators, state education agencies, and school boards/administrators to the demands of parents, so-called "Safe Schools" organizations, and their attorneys regarding their dissatisfaction over the handling of such matters on an individual basis and an idea that some form of 'standardized' process would provide a better solution for all concerned. This idea runs contrary to our legal system - under which extenuating and mitigating circumstances are to be considered when adjudicating such matters - and has since proven to be nearly as large a problem as the original issues it was supposed to correct.
This case of the honor student with the small pocket knife in his glove compartment is a good example; we have discussed others on this web-site.
Right or wrong - the lad broke the 'rules' in existence, and I am sure he and his parents signed a form at the beginning of the school year stating they understood and would abide by those rules. What would happen for breaking the 'rules' at the USMA where he wants to go?
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Richard that is a part of it. The other part is that the rule is not well thought out.
Question on this issue, what was the PC to search the student's car? Is there more to this story?
Question on this issue, what was the PC to search the student's car? Is there more to this story?
The story states:
Matthew says school officials approached him on Sept. 21, asking if he had a weapon on him. When Matthew answered he did not, he says the officials asked if he had a knife in his car. Matthew said it was a pocket knife, and took officials to his car when asked. He also turned over the pocket knife when asked.
Sounds as if the fact he carried a knife found its way to the administration and they were specifically investigating its being on campus - most public high schools today have a policeman assigned to the campus who would have been involved in the search as well.
Richard
armymom1228
10-12-2009, 08:44
There is a Supreme Court ruling that states that a student does not suspend his/her rights when on school property.
It is a sad commentary on some people that chose to abuse thier power over those who they look to for examples in leadership.
GreenLakota
10-12-2009, 08:58
Yet another case where the "may we search your car" response is bungled.
In all cases, the answer is, "Not unless you have a warrant".
TR
Exactly. If you don't teach your kids this lesson you are being grossly negligent.
Sounds as if the fact he carried a knife found its way to the administration and they were specifically investigating its being on campus - most public high schools today have a policeman assigned to the campus who would have been involved in the search as well.
Richard
It still leaves information out. I am not very good at guessing.
Bill Harsey
10-12-2009, 09:15
This kind of thing makes my head hurt. Did he have a jack handle or tire iron in the car too?
to paraphrase NousDefionsDoc, if anyone cuts me with a two inch blade and I find out about it...
armymom1228
10-12-2009, 09:54
Another supporting example of the Theory of Unintended Consequences.
The Zero Tolerance legislation related to weapons, drugs, bullying, and violence in schools came about in response by legislators, state education agencies, and school boards/administrators to the demands of parents, so-called "Safe Schools" organizations, and their attorneys regarding their dissatisfaction over the handling of such matters on an individual basis and an idea that some form of 'standardized' process would provide a better solution for all concerned. This idea runs contrary to our legal system - under which extenuating and mitigating circumstances are to be considered when adjudicating such matters - and has since proven to be nearly as large a problem as the original issues it was supposed to correct.
This case of the honor student with the small pocket knife in his glove compartment is a good example; we have discussed others on this web-site.
Right or wrong - the lad broke the 'rules' in existence, and I am sure he and his parents signed a form at the beginning of the school year stating they understood and would abide by those rules. What would happen for breaking the 'rules' at the USMA where he wants to go?
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
While I agree with, to a point, what you are saying. I am aware of other cases, one the dtr of a QP and the other my own kid, who both ran afoul of 'educators' who abused their position to go overboard instead of using simple logic in dealing with the kids. Both kids faced permanent explusion over simple hearesay. The 'zero tolerace' policy is not only abused, it is also used when they feel the need to do so. I Have seen scenarios such as the above and my kid and the QP's dtr, all were honor students with no history of problems. Yet a kid who is designated, some verson of EH or involved in the special ed program due to emotional 'difficulties' allowed to get away with things that would have had the aforementioned students permenently expelled. It is a double standard system in some repsects.
a pocket knife in his glove box....puhleeze. :rolleyes:
He is a boy scout, they are 'supposed' to be 'prepared'. ;)
What would happen for breaking the 'rules' at the USMA where he wants to go?
For anything short of an honor violation, he'd walk hours comensurate to the degree of infraction (during the little "free" time he had on the weekend) to serve as a deterrent to repeating the behavior in the future. He would not be suspended, nor would a solitary rule violation have any appreciable effect on his graduation or commission. Even an honor violation would be judged with the totality of the circumstances in mind, and may result in a lesser punishment than expulsion should the situation warrant. Sounds to me like he wants to study in an environment far less reactionary (and spineless) than his current situation.
This kind of thing makes my head hurt. Did he have a jack handle or tire iron in the car too?
More importantly, didn't he already have the keys to a weapon weighing several thousand pounds and having the ability to travel at 80+ mph, which could easily kill dozens of people in a handful of seconds? Talk about ignoring the 600lb gorilla in the room.
Too many things we don't know about the situation - policies and how they've been enforced in the past, family vs school administration, community and state ed issues, previous incidents, etc.
As a private school, we declared such offenses 'could' result in suspension or dismissal - and tried to use common sense on a case-by-case basis when dealing with such matters.
As a part of the contract parents signed with the school, they gave us permission to search their children's backpack, person (not a strip search), and vehicle. We took their turst seriously and I never conducted a search (except for periodic random inspections of lockers or such) without valid probable cause. I never had a law suit brought against me, either.
We also brought a dog through the school 6-8 times per year for unannounced inspections of vehicles in the parking lot, lockers, common areas, class rooms, offices, etc. Only thing we ever found were a few periodic loose rounds under car seats or in a backpack in vehicles of students who had been out hunting at a ranch or such - I once found a hunting knife in a pickup which also had a couple of loose shotgun shells because the kid had been hunting the weekend before. I'd collect the rounds or knife, warn the students, and notify the parents to come by the office and pick them up - none ever gave me cause to dismiss them for this reason alone.
However, illegal drugs on campus = dismissal and - with probable cause - a refusal to have a drug screen = dismissal.
It's not a cut and dried world out there on campus - even though I would have liked it to have been that way on a number of occasions.
And so it goes...;)
Richard
Sacamuelas
10-12-2009, 14:18
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,564605,00.html
more "zero tolerance" policy in action..... Why even have school administrators and a school board? I thought they were there to provide leadership, judgement, knowledge,etc. Complete BS
Yet another case where the "may we search your car" response is bungled.
In all cases, the answer is, "Not unless you have a warrant".
TR
EXACTLY! And here is some more good advice. This is a classic video and should be watched by all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Warrior-Mentor
10-12-2009, 19:03
EXACTLY! And here is some more good advice. This is a classic video and should be watched by all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Thanks. Great advice. Amazing how your words can be turned against you...
HowardCohodas
10-12-2009, 20:40
EXACTLY! And here is some more good advice. This is a classic video and should be watched by all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
I made a DVD of this lecture and show it, when time permits, to the Concealed Carry classes I assist in teaching.
Another video worth watching is sold by FlexYourRights.org (http://FlexYourRights.org/). They have made the video they sell available on YouTube at a lower video quality. It is available here: BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA).
...the answer is, "Not unless you have a warrant".
TR
I've always like the phrase, "I do not participate in custodial interrogations".
A 6-year-old boy's excitement over joining the Cub Scouts may just land him in reform school for 45 days.
Zachary Christie was suspended from his 1st grade class in Delaware's Christina School District after bringing a camping utensil - a combination knife/fork/spoon - to use at lunch, prompting calls to reexamine schools' zero-tolerance policy for bringing weapons to school, according to a New York Times report Monday.
Zero tolerance policies were instituted in many school districts across the country, at least in part due to violence at Columbine and Virginia Tech, the report notes. Their rigid enforcement is designed to eliminate the appearance of bias or discrimination on the part of school officials.
The school district's policy is enforced "regardless of intent" and "does not take into consideration a child's age," reports CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod.
But residents, and some lawmakers, are now wondering why schools can't apply a more common-sense discretion to such instances.
"It just seems unfair," said Zachary, who is being home-schooled while his mother, Debbie Christie, tries to fight the suspension. That involved Zachary appearing before a district disciplinary committee with his karate instructor and mother's fiancé vouching for him as character witnesses.
"Zachary wears a suit and tie some days to school by his own choice because he takes school so seriously," his mother said. "He is not some sort of threat to his classmates."
Christie started a Web site, helpzachary.com, to drum up support for her son.
State Representative Teresa L. Schooley wrote the disciplinary committee, asking each member to "consider the situation, get all the facts, find out about Zach and his family and then act with common sense for the well-being of this child."
But the strict enforcement of the policy has its supporters.
"There is no parent who wants to get a phone call where they hear that their child no longer has two good seeing eyes because there was a scuffle and someone pulled out a knife," said George Evans, the school district board's president. :(
There has been a move to give school officials more flexibility in "weapon"-related incidents. After a third-grade girl was expelled for a year after bringing in a knife to cut the birthday cake her grandmother sent in to the class, a new law was passed allowing officials to modify punishments on a case-by-case basis. But that was for expulsions, not suspensions as Zachary is faced with. Another revision to the law is being drafted to address suspensions, according to the report.The toughness in kids; is diminishing at a rapid pace!
Stay safe.
Bill Harsey
10-13-2009, 06:34
Guy,
Good post, heard about this on the early radio this morning.
Razor,
Well said, thank you.
Richard,
Your not included in the following comment.
About the "knife" punishments:
The individuals employed by schools who exhibit this kind of judgment about a simple and common tool have me wondering what other failure of judgments they make when in the classroom.
BigJimCalhoun
10-13-2009, 07:40
We home-school our son, partly because of some of the nonsense posted above. That and singing praises to Obama, social engineering, etc.
I realize not every family can homeschool, but it is a choice we have made.
The Reaper
10-13-2009, 07:51
"There is no parent who wants to get a phone call where they hear that their child no longer has two good seeing eyes because there was a scuffle and someone pulled out a knife," said George Evans, the school district board's president. .
Ah, yes. The old "it's all fun till someone gets and eye put out" argument.
What about sharp pencils? If safety is the issue, shouldn't those be banned as well?
TR
"....."There is no parent who wants to get a phone call where they hear that their child no longer has two good seeing eyes because there was a scuffle and someone pulled out a knife," said George Evans, the school district board's president.........."
My older girls spent 13 years in the public school system. During that time only one person was injured by a "weapon". A student - who, to be kind, had a number of issues - stabbed a teacher with a pencil.
For a number of reasons the student stayed in school.:mad:
And then there are situations such as this one. :eek: :mad: :(
Five boys are accused of dousing a Deerfield Beach 15-year-old with rubbing alcohol and setting him on fire, leaving him with burns covering 80 percent of his body.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Revenge Was Motivation For Burning Boy, Police Say
Diana Moskovitz, Miami Herald, 14 Oct 2009
``Pour it on him. Pour it on him.''
With those chilling words, a 15-year-old Deerfield Beach boy was doused in rubbing alcohol and set ablaze, authorities said Tuesday.
The accused: five middle school boys about the same age as Michael Brewer, the victim. All lived within a few miles of each other and, according to the Broward Sheriff's Office, went to the same school, Deerfield Beach Middle School.
The motive: payback over money owed for a video game and the thwarted theft of the victim's father's bike.
Three of the boys appeared in a Fort Lauderdale courtroom on Tuesday. The youngest, with pink cheeks and brown eyes, barely filled his beige jail jumpsuit.
All five are charged with aggravated battery in the attack Monday afternoon outside an apartment building. The boy accused of lighting the fire -- 15-year-old Jesus Mendez -- also is charged with second-degree attempted murder.
Tuesday, Brewer lay in a bed at Jackson Memorial Hospital's burn center, nearly 80 percent of his body covered in burns, according to BSO.
``In my 31 years, you always say, `It's the most heinous crime I've seen,' '' Sheriff Al Lamberti said. ``In this case, this one fits in that category.''
Deputies spent Monday and Tuesday piecing together what they believe happened based on witnesses and confessions from some of the accused.
SEEKING REVENGE
It began with the video game, BSO Sgt. Steve Feeley said Tuesday. Brewer owed 15-year-old Matthew Bent $40 for it and didn't pay up. Bent tried to get even by stealing a bicycle Sunday from Brewer's father, Feeley said. He didn't get away with it.
The Brewer family reported the attempted bike theft to BSO, and deputies arrested Bent that night. State records show that he was charged with larceny.
On Monday, neither boy went to school.
Bent remained at home after his brief stay in a juvenile facility. Brewer skipped school, Feeley said, fearing retaliation.
That afternoon, Brewer went over to the Lime Street Apartments at 429 SE 13th Ct. to see a friend, according to BSO.
THE ATTACK
But Bent happened to be there, too, along with four other boys: Denver Colorado Jarvis, 15; his brother Jeremy Jarvis, 13; Steven Shelton, 15; and Jesus Mendez, 15. They spotted Brewer and hatched their plan, BSO said.
First, they grabbed a bottle of rubbing alcohol that they found along a wall in the apartment complex. Then they confronted Brewer. Bent called him a snitch. Brewer tried to walk away.
At that point, BSO said, Bent gave the order: ``Pour it on him. Pour it on him.''
The boys surrounded Brewer so he couldn't run away, Feeley said. Denver Jarvis poured the alcohol. Mendez used a lighter to set Brewer on fire.
The flames spread over Brewer's body as he broke free and ran to the apartments' swimming pool, jumping into the water. He left behind smoldering bushes and burn marks on the grass.
Several people helped pull Michael from the pool and called 911 shortly before 3:15 p.m. Medics arrived, and he was taken by helicopter, first to Broward General Medical Center in Fort Lauderdale and then to Jackson Memorial HospitalMedical Center inMiami.
IN JUVENILE COURT
Hours later, deputies arrested the Jarvis brothers and Bent . All three appeared Tuesday before Broward Circuit Judge Elijah Williams, wearing jail jumpsuits and handcuffs.
Their families sat silently in the courtroom as Williams ordered all three to spend 21 days in juvenile detention. They are to have no contact with Brewer or with each other.
Jeremy Jarvis' attorney, Stephen Melnick, argued during Tuesday's hearing that Jeremy was not directly involved in the incident, saying the youngest of the bunch ``was just there.''
Shelton's mother, Patricia Hollis, 42, told The Miami Herald that she believed her son had no relationship with any of the other youths involved and that he just watched the incident. ``I'm very sorry what happened to the child and I don't really know too much about Steven's involvement, but he was at the wrong place at the wrong time,'' she said.
BSO's Feeley said the boys showed little remorse.
``A couple of them last night were laughing about it,'' Feeley said.
`HE UNDERSTANDS'
But Assistant Public Defender Gordon Weekes said that by Tuesday morning the severity of the charges had become clear to Bent.
``He's very fearful of the process,'' Weekes said. ``He understands the gravity of the charges against him.''
The other two boys, Shelton and Mendez, were arrested Tuesday. All remained in juvenile detention Tuesday night.
All five of the suspects had tangled with law enforcement in the past, BSO spokesman Jim Leljedal said, but he said he could not elaborate.
At Tuesday's hearing, Melnick said Jeremy Jarvis had no criminal past, but BSO officials later said was once in trouble for criminal mischief.
As of Tuesday, all five boys were charged as juveniles.
``Why kids today are resorting to this,'' Lamberti said, ``I just don't know.''
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/broward/story/1281802.html
I saw this one on the news yesterday and couldn't believe the stupidity involved... giving a 45 day suspension to a 6-yr old went way over the common sense line, regardless of how you feel about "rules".... yes, there are rules, which have to be followed...
It's nice to see that common sense prevailed in the end.
Before you jump to conclusion about rules... realize that there are still segregation rules that are still valid and on the books in many states from the local city ordinances to the state government.
Delaware 1st grader has 45-day suspension lifted
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091014/ap_on_re_us/us_zero_tolerance_boy
By BEN NUCKOLS, Associated Press Writer Ben Nuckols, Associated Press Writer – Wed Oct 14, 3:21 am ET
BEAR, Del. – A Delaware first-grader who was facing 45 days in an alternative school as punishment for taking his favorite camping utensil to school can return to class after the school board made a hasty change granting him a reprieve.
The seven-member Christina School Board voted unanimously Tuesday to reduce the punishment for kindergartners and first-graders who take weapons to school or commit violent offenses to a suspension ranging from three to five days.
Zachary Christie, 6, had faced 45 days in an alternative school for troublemakers after he took the utensil — a combination folding knife, fork and spoon — to school to eat lunch last month. Now, he could return Wednesday.
"I want to get him back as soon as possible. I want to put this behind him as soon as possible," said Debbie Christie, Zachary's mother. "But I also want him to know that he has a voice, and when things are not right, he can stand up and speak out against them."
A spokeswoman for the school district said more changes to the school system's code of conduct were possible in the coming months.
The punishment given to Zachary was one of several in recent years that have prompted national debate on whether schools have gone too far with zero-tolerance policies.
It was not the first such case in the Christina School District, Delaware's largest with more than 17,000 students, which includes parts of the city of Wilmington and its suburbs. Last year, a fifth-grade girl was ordered expelled after she brought a birthday cake to school and a serrated knife to cut it with.
The expulsion was overturned, and it led to a state law that gave districts more flexibility on punishments. But that law applied only to conduct that triggers expulsions, not suspensions.
School board member John Mackenzie told The Associated Press before the meeting that he was surprised school officials did not use common sense and disregard the policy in Zachary's case. The need for common sense to prevail over the letter of the law was a recurring theme among the boy's supporters and school safety experts.
"When that common sense is missing, it sends a message of inconsistency to students, which actually creates a less safe environment," said Kenneth S. Trump, president of National School Safety and Security Services, a consulting firm. "People have to understand that assessing on a case-by-case basis doesn't automatically equate to being soft or unsafe."
Not everyone believed the school district was out of line.
Jennifer Jankowski, who runs the special education programs at Jennie Smith Elementary in Newark, said schools need to be vigilant about protecting students. If Zachary or another student had been hurt by the knife, she said, the district would have taken the blame.
"If we can't punish him, then what about kids that did bring (a weapon) for bad things?" Jankowski said. "There's more to the school's side than just us being mean and not taking this child's interests into account."
Several people spoke on Zachary's behalf, including some who said other students had been unjustly punished.
Dodi Hebert said her 13-year-old son, Kyle, was tormented throughout last year by a group of bullies who ultimately planted a knife on him. Kyle was ordered into the alternative school, but Hebert refused to send him there and home-schools him instead.
"You can't kick kids out of school for the kinds of things that are happening," Connie Merlet told the board. "This is a horrible thing to happen to our district, to be on the national news because you guys weren't paying attention."
.
Ret10Echo
10-14-2009, 06:18
What about sharp pencils? If safety is the issue, shouldn't those be banned as well?
TR
Concur wholeheartedly
I get grief for passing through security in the building I work because I carry a pocket knife....I pointed out to the guard that there is also a paper cutter with a 2-foot long blade outside my office....
He didn't get it....:confused:
...I pointed out to the guard that there is also a paper cutter with a 2-foot long blade outside my office....
He didn't get it....:confused:Is it just me; why is the "obvious" so difficult too understand?:confused:
Stay safe.
The story states:
Sounds as if the fact he carried a knife found its way to the administration and they were specifically investigating its being on campus - most public high schools today have a policeman assigned to the campus who would have been involved in the search as well.
Richard
I cannot speak for other states however, here in IL, even though we have SRO(School Resource Officers aka Liason) on Campus, in regards to the Fourth amendment SRO's operate under "Probable Cause". While the school administration operates under "Reasonable Suspicion".
http://books.google.com/books?id=YsE3Fx-YldwC&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=School+administrators+reasonable+suspicion+vs+p robable+cause&source=bl&ots=lQx9iH-aXv&sig=IS2Wlgu0aYN7Q1On3lnLJejXrVs&hl=en&ei=m9nVSo7BI5K-NrOQzeAM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
I like this one better; http://students.ed.uiuc.edu/jkelsey/surveillance/locker.htm
Great topic guys!
Darbs
Can I carry a 12 oz. ball-pin hammer on my belt at school, or a metal Scratch-All in my shirt pocket? How about a metal gouge, or right angled straight edge for art class in my packpack?
Can I turn the fire extinguisher hanging freely on the wall in to a large paper wait?
I know, I know - I can take my boot and throw it at a fly on the wall.
Is it just me; why is the "obvious" so difficult too understand?:confused:
Stay safe.
Guy, may I remind you that you are trained, and most are mindless sheeple.
I son last year, while boarding a plane in LA was asked by the LEO, not TSA if he had any weapons on him. My son replied, "I am a weapon".
Funny how a small Dress Blues long tab fit on a shirt pocket for both LEO and child.
Team Sergeant
10-14-2009, 09:41
Guy, may I remind you that you are trained, and most are mindless sheeple.
I son last year, while boarding a plane in LA was asked by the LEO, not TSA if he had any weapons on him. My son replied, "I am a weapon".
Funny how a small Dress Blues long tab fit on a shirt pocket for both LEO and child.
I hope Gale D. Rossides Actng Administrator, Transportation Security Administration and Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano do not read your above post. :rolleyes:
All the Special Operations personnal will be banned from "public" transportation.
I'd be willing to bet we're already on a Department of Homeland Security "list" somewhere.;)
I'd be willing to bet we're already on a Department of Homeland Security "list" somewhere.
Cool - do we get another badge? :cool:
Richard
Utah Bob
10-14-2009, 12:07
Cool - do we get another badge? :cool:
Richard
Yup.
Pocket NCO
10-15-2009, 06:46
I carried a 3" pocket knife most days in High School and was asked many times by teachers and administrators to let them borrow it to cut something. They always said that I probably shouldn't be carrying it but they also understood that I was a responsible good kid. I totally agree that "weapons" have no place in public schools but I also know that its probably more dangerous to allow a kid to use a tablesaw in shop class than it is to allow them to carry a pocket knife (if they are responsible enough). Their are 40 year old adults who I wouldn't let touch a knife so I think it is more of a maturity issue than a public safety issue.
I need one of those periculosus vir stickers to place next to the SF sticker on the back window of my SUV. ;)
Richard
dr. mabuse
10-15-2009, 18:05
Ah, another one of those "gun-free, drug-free, common-sense-free" school zones.
What would they say about my son's homeschool co-op that had a retired Marine sniper teaching gun safety and the virtues of handling a bolt-gun with my 10 y.o. ( at the time )?
I sincerely feel sorry for kids that attend public school and their parents. :(
Guy, may I remind you that you are trained, and most are mindless sheeple.Blame my parents for instilling "common" sense first and foremost.:D
Next thing you know, we'll be banning kids from fishing because...some child hooked himself while casting.:eek:
Stay safe.
greenberetTFS
10-16-2009, 12:22
Blame my parents for instilling "common" sense first and foremost.
Next thing you know, we'll be banning kids from fishing because...some child hooked himself while casting.
Stay safe.
Fishing poles are extremely dangerous and should be banned until a kid(young adult)is at least 18 years old before allowing them to use it......:rolleyes::eek::p
Big Teddy :munchin
Keen insight I once read on another forum:
"When you're the weapon, the tool is irrelevant. When you're a tool, the weapon is irrelevant."
- Mike Driscoll
These stories of obscenely foolish over reactions just makes me sick. Where did our country go?
Team Sergeant
10-21-2009, 09:27
These stories of obscenely foolish over reactions just makes me sick. Where did our country go?
Oprah, The View, Dr. Phil etc etc etc and all the people that watch these idiots, these are the sort of individuals that would think a "two inch" folding knife is a weapon.
I should send the young lad an email and tell him I'd be more than happy to put on full dress greens and explain to the court that a two inch folding knife would not be considered a "weapon".
And when compared to a wooden handled mop, a butter knife, sneakers with nylon laces, a belt, a flashlight, a wooden broom, or even a fire extinguisher, the two inch (non locking) folding knife would be my last choice in a fight.
The only individuals that would consider a two inch non locking folding knife a weapon are spineless yellow cowards that are only concerned for their own personal safety.
Team Sergeant
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
George Orwell quotes
From the NYDailyNews.com
"Laura Timoney fumes after son Patrick, 9, is busted for bringing 2-inch-long toy gun to PS 52"
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2010/02/04/2010-02-04_big_trouble_over_this_tiny_toy_mom_fuming_at_a_ lack_of_common_sense_as_son_buste.html#ixzz0eaxWs3 Y5
An irate Staten Island mom blasted a grade school principal Wednesday for treating her son like a pint-sized Plaxico Burress after he brought a 2-inch-long toy gun to school.
"This principal is a bully and a coward, and needs to be held accountable," said Laura Timoney, 44, after her teary fourth-grader was nearly suspended for playing with the tiny toy at lunch.
"The school should be embarrassed. This is a common-sense issue."
Patrick Timoney, 9, was terrified when he was yanked into the principal's office to discuss the teeny-weeny plastic "weapon."
"The gun was so little," the boy said. "I don't understand why the principal got so upset. I was a little nervous. They made me sign a statement."
Patrick and a friend were playing with Lego figures in the school cafeteria on Tuesday when he pulled out the faux machine gun and stuck it in the hands of his plastic police officer.
Boom! Trouble ensued, with Patrick's mom getting a phone call from Public School 52 Principal Evelyn Mastroianni saying her son had somehow gone from straight A's to the NRA.
"I was in disbelief," the still-fuming mother said. "Why didn't anyone step up with an ounce of common sense and put an end to the harassment of my child?"
Timoney said her boy loved the toy figure because her husband is a retired police officer.
The elder Patrick Timoney, a former 72nd Precinct cop, couldn't believe his son was nearly busted over something so obviously inauthentic.
"It's a 2-inch gun," he said. "She went overboard. She should have said, 'Put the toys away,' and that would have been the end of it."
After a meeting between the principal and the parents, the boy was spared any disciplinary action. City school officials said Patrick agreed to leave the "gun" at home.
"I'm never bringing a toy to school again," said Patrick, whose favorite subject is math.
Laura Timoney remained upset. Her son, a typically eager student, asked to stay home yesterday because he thought the principal was mad at him.
The mother said she expects an apology and may sue.
"The toy gun is not the issue," she said. "A lack of common sense is the issue."
Several parents at the school felt the principal overreacted, including Kim O'Rieley - whose son was playing with Patrick in the cafeteria.
Her boy's Lego man was toting a tiny ax, which the principal deemed less threatening.
"It's ridiculous," said O'Rieley, 36. "He felt so bad for his friend. They're taking things way too far ... No one is saying guns are okay.
"Come on, it's a Lego."
mlysiak@nydailynews.com
Common sense... we don't need no common sense! (spoken in my best Blazing Saddles imitation!) :D
After I posted the article on the 9 y/o, maybe a better place would have been in the "Comedy Zone".
Please move if you feel necessary.
:munchin
"..............Her boy's Lego man was toting a tiny ax, which the principal deemed less threatening........."
You just can not make up stuff like this. The principal can see the difference between a toy gun and a toy ax - but not the difference between a real gun and a 2" toy gun.
Government employee - his job is safe. Maybe even get some Obama Bucks for a raise next year.
spherojon
02-04-2010, 13:29
Someone I know, in their Junior year of High School, who was an honor student, enrolled in AP classes, and did extra work around the school (building the communications department), did work with the Superintendent for his monthly cable access show (filming/writing), and was on first name basis with all of the school administrators. One day, they decided to throw an empty plastic bottle into the trash from 5 ft away, well, it hit the trashcan and bounced off and hit a girl in the face. Needless to say, they went over to her, apologized that it hit her, made sure she was ok, she said "no problem." While walking her to her class and talking with her, a school security person, grabbed them and took them to the office. When they where in the office with the School Disciplinary Administrator, he explained the "no tolerance" rule and they were suspended for 5 days because under our school policy, you cannot throw trash and have it hit someone. It was retarded.
Basenshukai
02-04-2010, 19:15
Right or wrong - the lad broke the 'rules' in existence, and I am sure he and his parents signed a form at the beginning of the school year stating they understood and would abide by those rules. What would happen for breaking the 'rules' at the USMA where he wants to go?
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Rules are broken in USMA. It is not an institution bent on creating non-thinking robots. Critical thinking is heavily focused on in USMA. There are generally three rules that are firm: lying, cheating, stealing, or tolerating those that do. But, things happen, rules are broken and people are punished. Many times, a cadet has to face a board and explain his actions. There are many misconceptions as to what happens at the "Hudson River School for Boys". The idea that they are seeking perfect human beings, Olympic athletes or saints is one of the most common.
the squid
02-05-2010, 10:45
At the very least, something positive can be garnered from all of this:
If civilization ever does break down, and we are thrust back into a "state of nature," we know who will the tools to survive, and who won't.
My guess is that save ass principals who cannot distinguish between a firearm and a tool will be at a significant disadvantage.
:D