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fng13
10-07-2009, 22:42
I have searched as much as I can about slow/weak runners and can not find a clear answer to my question. From the book Get Selected as well as throughout the forum it seems that the main endurance training should be on rucking. I have been rucking several times a week 3-5 miles and once every other week for 10. I can maintain a pace I am satisfied with at this point in my prep 13.5min/mile, which is improving. My question is how much of a factor in my success at SFAS will endurance running be? I am a weak distance runner. I have a strong lower body and back with a max back squat at 405lbs and a solid deadlift at 500lbs. It seems though that while my ruck times keep improving my run times do not. I don't think I am overly heavy at 207lbs 6'1'' but when i start to push myself on the runs it usually ends up with some sort of injury; shin splints being the most common, which further causes me to put off lsd runs. How far should I realistically train to run? Should I stick with just two mile runs as to do well on the AFPT, or 4 as I believe is required at SFAS?
I apologize in advance.

Fng

wet dog
10-07-2009, 23:02
While I am not a professional runner, I have been a successful runner. While my strength has decreased with age, my endurance has remained, although my recovery time has lengthend. Consider all three points, develop a matrix that works for you for the simply reason to track the "trending".

Here we go, ...Lengthen your Stride, reach a little further.

Consider the best examples of runners, Cheetahs and Horses. Two perfectly engineered running machines. Speed and distance are never variables, merely constants in the equation. You can watch video of both species and see inflection in style for different desired results.

To avoid a long answer, remember, horses do not win the "run for the roses". The blacksmith places shoes does.

Lengthen your stride, develop longer muscles. When a horse can gain an extra 1/4" per step stride every time his hoof makes contact with the ground, multiple that by a factor of several thousand steps, his time decreases over distance.

Try it, let me know how it works.

WD

NoRoadtrippin
10-07-2009, 23:30
There are certainly a lot of factors that could be at play here. I had this same conversation with a Soldier of mine this weekend.

Lengthening your stride would certainly be one place to start. If you are 6'1" and taking fairly small steps, you are bound to get some pain. It is not solely about length though. Pay attention to your foot fall. Are you striking heel first? Completely flat? Either of those is going to transfer the energy into your shins/knees/back in a pretty unforgiving way. Ideally, you want to land on the balls of your feet. This also makes you faster due to the momentum transfer. Think, if you land heel first you are actually pushing back on yourself just slightly every time you step. Changing that to pushing forward just slightly by landing on the ball of the foot follows suit with the previous idea of the horse who adds a 1/4". Not a lot on its on, but over time...

If your shins are hurting, check your gear. If you have shoes that were bought at the mall or a "big box" sporting goods store, there is a decent chance they aren't right for you. It is truly worth your while to go to a running store and have both your foot and stride analyzed. Take your old shoes with you. Seeing the wear pattern on the bottom will be important in selecting a shoe to correct any issues. If you walk into a store to buy expensive running shoes and the sales person says anything to the effect of, "So which ones are your favorite color?" Just turn and walk away. When you buy running shoes, you should not pick them out, the sales person should tell you which ones you're gonna buy.

Maybe you already buy your shoes from a running store and already deal with an expert--if so, hit them up again. Let them know what isn't working and they will be able to address it for you.

For shin splints, I highly recommend considering cutting the soles of your shoes. The idea here is that your foot wants to flex. For thousands of years, man ran just fine without fiberglass and plastic supports in his shoes. Now we have all this technology. I used to have terrible shin splints. Switched running stores and ended up with a guy that cuts just about every shoe he sells. Literally fixed my shin splints from one run to the next, but it isn't for everyone. I can upload pictures if anyone has an interest.

Maybe consider switching to a more aerobic workout program that promotes cardio endurance. I have been a recent convert to the Crossfit school of thougt and have seen legit gains out of the gate. You may already be plenty aware, but the idea is that training for 20-40 minutes at something like 90% of your max HR creates the ability to go indefinitely (or at least a long, long time) at 60-70% without even really feeling it. The converse is not true. You cannot train at 60-70% for an hour and expect your body to handle 90% for a
half hour very well. So with something like CF the endurance comes without even realizing.

YMMV. Looking forward to input.

Brush Okie
10-07-2009, 23:36
For shin splints, I highly recommend considering cutting the soles of your shoes. The idea here is that your foot wants to flex. For thousands of years, man ran just fine without fiberglass and plastic supports in his shoes. Now we have all this technology. I used to have terrible shin splints. Switched running stores and ended up with a guy that cuts just about every shoe he sells. Literally fixed my shin splints from one run to the next, but it isn't for everyone. I can upload pictures if anyone has an interest.

.

Photo's please.

SF0
10-08-2009, 00:21
Photo's please.

I believe he means something akin to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Free

I have a pair of this type, very flexible. The only annoyance is they tend to pick up a lot of rocks.

Brush Okie
10-08-2009, 00:46
I believe he means something akin to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Free

I have a pair of this type, very flexible. The only annoyance is they tend to pick up a lot of rocks.

Thanks. I have a wide foot and it is hard to find a shoe that fits. I usually go with new balance 4E. I might try to take a knife to mine depending on how my new shoes do after break in. I am not a good runner to begin with, add that I am out of shape and not young anymore every little thing helps. I kick myself every day that I allowed myself to get in the shape I am in, no one to blame but me.

The Reaper
10-08-2009, 08:19
You will need to run a lot more than 2 miles. I would suggest that you work on distances up to 8 miles. Running is more of an aerobic activity than rucking.

Get a running buddy who is faster than you and work to keep up.

Take longer strides and faster steps. Run stairs. Run in sand. Start lengthening your runs and increasing your pace. Improve your aerobic capacity.

Get out and run laps for time, and try to start your finishing kick a few dozen meters sooner each time till you can run the last 1/4 to 1/2 mile at a dead sprint.

BTW, this has been covered here before. Work on your Search skills while you are resting.

Best of luck.

TR

Loadsmasher
10-08-2009, 11:20
I faced some of the same issues as you've addressed and have a couple suggestions.

1) Sprints, Sprints, Sprints. It seems counterintuitive that short distance improves long distance, but it does work.

2) Run barefoot. If you can find a place to do it. Nothing will fix heel striking quicker than taking away all that space age foam and rubber. If you can't find a place to run barefoot, Vibram makes some shoes that are a close second.

3) Run almost every day. Switch it up with long and short distances, quick and slow paces. Build up slowly to prevent injury.

That's my .02 Baht

csquare
10-08-2009, 11:54
First: If you're getting shin splints from running. Go to an actual running store and have them watch you run. They will then put you a shoe that is properly fitted for you and your body type. If you hate running, start biking or swimming more. You need to build endurance.
Second: When you ruck, don't over stride. That is what will give you shin splints too. If you lengthen you stride, this puts more stress on your lower legs and will start to break you down.
Third: (IMHO) I recommend only rucking once a week, but you go for a couple of hours. You need to build endurance/strength in both you lower and upper body. I don't remember any rucks being just a couple of miles?
BLUF: You need endurance training. Don't run miles, run for time. Your body doesn't know now far it ran, it remembers how long it ran. So think about running 45-60 mins and maybe once every other week run at least 90 mins. Also, run strides/sprints up some hills. Something that will take you 45-60 seconds to get to the top. And jog down them. You're building/ training your body to get ready for some serious stresses. Train it and your mind right. You'll have no issue with any events. Being a slow runner is fine, you just need to properly train.

MILON
10-08-2009, 16:10
Fng13,

Its seems to me that you have very good strength going for you and your ruck is looking good. I would suggest implementing measures to simply maintain your gains in those events and focus more on the aerobic component of your run, as already mentioned. You asked how far you should run to do this. There are many schools of thought here and they all work, to a point. I'm not sure where your specific weaknesses are, but if you are weak in the LSD events focus on that. Focussing on time initially works very well and then when your lungs are up to par for a the distance you want (maybe 6-8 miles), then work on improving your pace. When advising someone competing for a particular event, in this case SFAS, I suggest getting VERY good at those events first. I believe the runs are 2, 4 and 8 miles, but I may have them mixed up with the rucks. I'm not sure what your specific strengths and weaknesses are, so if you want more programming advice or general information PM me sometime.

Shin splints (aka. medial tibial stress syndrome) is a very common ailment for runners, especially in military athletes and distance athletes. Its placed in the category of overtraining injuries with the likes of IT band syndrome, tendonitis, etc. What exactly causes the symptoms has not been identified yet, but its suspected inappropriate progression of training, poor equipment (shoes), impact forces, and inadequate flexibility and strength are all factors. Not knowing the cause makes it very difficult to prevent the injury. We do know that the best treatment is rest, but we want to prevent it all together! One way to prevent any overtraining injury is giving your body the proper time to recover. The more intense (heavy resistance, greater velocity of movement, or greater duration), the more rest is needed. [B]If your going to push yourself (ie. greater intensity), you must give your body the necessary time to recover.[B] DO NOT run every day until your ready. Do perform some form of aerobic activity every day, but switch in biking, swimming, eliptical, or anyother NON IMPACT aerobic exercise. This will give your legs the rest they need and hopefully prevent some of the injuries you are encountering. Lastly, running barefoot may be benefical down the road, but likley not until you can run distance in regular running shoes.



MILON

craigepo
10-08-2009, 18:56
Some of the old best ranger guys used to have a saying: "You can't cheat the system. If you want to be a fast runner, you have to practice running fast." The way those guys would get their times down would be to run with superfast guys, doing quite a few miles a week. Two miles would only be a warmup, minimum runs of 4 miles, max of 8-10 miles, 3-4 runs per week.
Also, they would jam on other aerobic activites as well. Lots of pool work(crossovers work great for building up VO2 max). Also, lots of biking. They also paid a lot of attention to their heart rates, and were generally trying to tach-out their hearts for long periods. Sounds pretty grueling, but we're talking about good-sized guys that were getting their two-mile times down below the old 11:58 max.
One thing I noticed about your training regimen was the mention of really heavy weights. It's good to be strong---bulk can be bad. The goal with this type of training is not to be able to squat/deadlift 500 lbs. The goal is to be able to carry thine body, with or without full battle rattle, over extremely long distances in tough conditions, rather quickly. Stated differently, if squatting 500 lbs requires you to carry 20-30 extra pounds of body weight, that's 30 pounds you are not able to carry in your ruck, or 30 extra pounds you're carrying that other candidates are not. Trust me, you're strong enough. Lift lighter, more reps if at all, and work on aerobic stuff like a maniac.

G
10-08-2009, 19:34
I'm 37 y.o. 1.35 - 1.40 half-marathoner and have this advice:

Start slow and build up. There are no shortcuts. If you go too hard or too far too fast too soon you'll just have injury after injury. To start, run with someone and as you build distance, don't run any faster than you can comfortably talk to each other. It actually takes discipline to run slow enough to condition your body to long distance.

The more you run, the more your body will "learn" how to run efficiently and your speed will increase.

There are a heap of running programmes (that include distance, speed etc) on the web that will help you to achieve time / distance goals, use the power of Google! It may be worth buying a magazine like Runners World - always full of good advice.

Also, get to a running store to buy shoes as per the advice above.

My running buddy is 6"5 and weighs 242lbs - pure muscle. He always says that he wasn't built for long distance running, but he has four half marathons under his belt now - generally completed in about 2 hours.

One day, you'll finish a run and say "holy crap, I actually enjoyed that" and from that point on you'll be hooked - it just takes a bit of work to get there.

Good luck!

G

rltipton
10-09-2009, 04:56
I had shin splints for years. I used to take a couple aspirin about 30 minutes before a run and ice my shins afterwards when it was really bad. It helped somewhat, but that is treating the sympton, not the cause, which is not the right way to go about it.

Switching from Nike Airs to Asics Gel shoes cured it for me. Follow the advice someone posted about getting evaluated by someone at a reputable athletic type shoe store. It is well worth your time.

I was never very fast. I could run 20 miles at 7.5 min/mile, but it was my cap for years. I would max pushups & situps and run a 15 minute 2 mile. I ran 10ks at 7.5 min/mile. I broke out a few times and ran 7 minute miles, but generally I just could not seem to get faster for any period of time and maintain it.

Then I went to ANCOC (the old 6 month course with O&I) and my small group were nothing but a pack of stinking speed demons. :mad: We ran 6 miles twice a week and did speed work 3 days a week throughout the course. We did about 3-4 miles of intervals on the track on Wednesdays, and Monday & Friday we ran 2-3 miles the track with stairs on every lap. Occasionally we did a terrain run or "indian run" to break it up. Variety helps.

In 6 months my run times dropped to 6 min/mile and I was able to maintain that for many years until I burned in on a jump, but that's another story...

A well designed training regimen including endurance, stairs and intervals with some variety mixed in works.

Good luck & be safe,
Randy

frostfire
10-09-2009, 10:37
I had shin splints for years. I used to take a couple aspirin about 30 minutes before a run and ice my shins afterwards when it was really bad. It helped somewhat, but that is treating the sympton, not the cause, which is not the right way to go about it.
Switching from Nike Airs to Asics Gel shoes cured it for me. Follow the advice someone posted about getting evaluated by someone at a reputable athletic type shoe store. It is well worth your time.

I was never very fast. I could run 20 miles at 7.5 min/mile, but it was my cap for years. I would max pushups & situps and run a 15 minute 2 mile. I ran 10ks at 7.5 min/mile. I broke out a few times and ran 7 minute miles, but generally I just could not seem to get faster for any period of time and maintain it.

Then I went to ANCOC (the old 6 month course with O&I) and my small group were nothing but a pack of stinking speed demons. :mad: We ran 6 miles twice a week and did speed work 3 days a week throughout the course. We did about 3-4 miles of intervals on the track on Wednesdays, and Monday & Friday we ran 2-3 miles the track with stairs on every lap. Occasionally we did a terrain run or "indian run" to break it up. Variety helps.

In 6 months my run times dropped to 6 min/mile and I was able to maintain that for many years until I burned in on a jump, but that's another story...

A well designed training regimen including endurance, stairs and intervals with some variety mixed in works.

Good luck & be safe,
Randy

Thank you for this post, rltipton!
I'm in the exact same spot right now, and planning to visit a running store today. Never heard of Asics Gel, but I'll inquire about it.

Being a nerd/lab-rat/paper-pusher turn QP-wannabe, I've gone along way from completely huffing and puffing just under 1 mile to 60min running at 8:30 pace, 2 miles in 14:50 and so on, but that's simply not good enough.

You are correct. One of my biggest improvement occured when I ran with speed demons aka. the cross country lady-athletes :o. Up/down hill, up/down the stairs, dirth path, etc. They also shared w/ me the 400m sprint-run interval, and those running drills the sprinters do. I ony spent a month with them. Now I wish I got the idea sooner and did more. "Train with the best. Always. Even though it's unlikely you'll beat or match the best, you will reach, if not surpass your own best."

fng13, another thing I do being the methodical person that I am is to get on a treadmill and run at 8:30, 7:30, 6:30 to get a "feel" of the pace and its demand on your circulatory/respiratory system and body mechanics. Then hold that pace for 1 min, 2 min, and so on.

That, and do strength-training aimed specifically on muscles involved in running:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_n11_v14/ai_21240304/?tag=content;col1

fng13
10-11-2009, 18:29
Thanks for all the great advice. I am going to start with limited distance runs (1-2 miles) and sprint walk workouts. Trying to keep my injuries down and ease into just a bit. I'll also keep rucking but only once a week at first. I picked a great time to start this new program as it is already in the 40's where I am at.

Fng13

MILON
10-15-2009, 10:36
Didnt really want to start another running thread, so thought I'd just piggy back these resources onto here. The writer is speaking to triathletes, but the advice could be applied to any distance event. Take what you will from it.

The Ten Most Common Mistakes Made by Triathletes
http://www.coachesinfo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=409:mistakes-article&catid=111:triathlon-general-articles&Itemid=213

101 Tips for Training
http://www.coachesinfo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:101-article&catid=111:triathlon-general-articles&Itemid=213

Information on the author:
http://www.coachesinfo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=267&Itemid=213

MILON

MILON
10-20-2009, 12:29
Running Fast & Injury Free by Gordon Pirie

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13695/Gordon-Piries-Running-Fast-and-Injury-Free

MILON
10-21-2009, 21:33
A short article.

Running: Is Your Training Developmental?
http://www.xlathlete.com/xl/export/drill_sheet_Running%3A%20Is%20Your%20Training%20De velopmental%3F_1256177906908.pdf

Info on Author: Dr. Michael Yessis
http://www.dryessis.com/wp/?page_id=2

Jasf10
11-10-2009, 10:45
Switching from Nike Airs to Asics Gel shoes cured it for me. Follow the advice someone posted about getting evaluated by someone at a reputable athletic type shoe store. It is well worth your time.


This is good advice! I switched to Asics Gel shoes about 6 months ago and they have been great. They are also not as expensive as New Balance, so I saved a bit of money.

Consulting a doctor is a good idea. Don't consult the people at the shoe store that scan in your foot and recommend a shoe. They get a 5 minute class on how to scan someone's foot in and their job is to sell shoes.

Good luck and Happy Running!

Boomer-61
11-12-2009, 12:40
Sounds to me like you're overtraining. As an Ortho PA I probably tend to look at things more so from the injury point of view so weigh what I have to say accordingly. I read a good book by an ultra marathoner, I believe his name is Stu Middleman and I think the name of the book is Slow Burn. The symptoms you describe area highly indicative of over training. In the book the author outlines safe protocols for building your milage up over time. He lives and breaths by the heart rate monitor. Using the HRM and specific HR zones you build up milage without over stressing your body. It really takes patience.
My 2 cents.
Boomer

frostfire
11-15-2009, 23:17
1) Sprints, Sprints, Sprints. It seems counterintuitive that short distance improves long distance, but it does work.


Thank you so very much all for the wonderful advices. Thank you Millon for that Gordon Pirie book. I followed all his tips.

Sprint intervals is the real deal. I did multiple 0.27miles at 5:40 pace, specific weight training/physical therapy targetting muscles involved in running to include the arm swings, uphill/stairs sprints, and easy 4-5 miles run. Also took ibuprofen for the shin splints before the run. Got 104, 86, 13:41 in the last APFT. While those are "meh" figures to studs around here, I was surprised I shove off more than a minute esp. for one with lab rat/nerd/musician hx who couldn't even run a mile non-stop. This will sound weak, but I admit I had to dig deep within on the last mile or so. Each time negative or self defeating thoughts popped up, I visualized the crest and ran D.O.L. over and over again in my head. The fasting period from alcohol, chocolate, cheesecake, and ice cream helped too...I think :D

In hindsight, I would practice more running with sun directly on my face and against the wind. It bothered me for the first 0.75 miles.

IMHO, train harder is good, but train smarter is better.

BlueSpark
11-16-2009, 02:08
http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200802/master-plan-running-golden-rules.html

perdurabo
11-17-2009, 18:05
I picked a great time to start this new program as it is already in the 40's where I am at.

Fng13

Sounds like a great temp for rucking n' running. You get to stay cool!

FWIW, I am 6'4 and around 235 lbs, so somewhat near your range. I'm a 2hr half-marathoner, 4:20 marathoner, and 5:30-ish 50ker.

When I first started getting up there in distance, I discovered my stride was initially too long. I was surprised because everyone's all about increasing strides lengths, which may not work as effectively for us more "well-endowed" people of 6' and higher. I reduced my stride length and increased my stride speed (think cartoon characters running in place) and as a result noticed I burned fewer calories while increasing my speed. So, play with that a little.

Civilian rucking (mountaineering pack with ~35-50lbs of water in jugs) up long, steep mountains does wonders for my running speed, as well.

Aside from that, other people's advice is sound. Find someone who is faster and more hardcore than you and run with them. Nothing works better than playing off of your pride. I have no idea what the mileage is for SFAS, but if it's 4 miles, work on mastering 6 miles.

HTH and good luck

Machete
06-12-2010, 08:42
Just curious, what Ability Group did you guys run with in Basic?