Hopkins Student With Samurai Sword Kills Theft Suspect

[Dirt Gallo]

Hopkins Student With Samurai Sword Kills Theft Suspect

Baltimore Sun
Wednesday, September 16, 2009

Hours earlier, someone had broken into John Pontolillo's home and taken two laptops and a video-game console. Now it was past midnight, and Pontolillo heard noises coming from the garage out back.
The Johns Hopkins University undergraduate didn't run. He didn't call the police. He grabbed his samurai sword.

With the 3- to 5-foot-long weapon in hand, Pontolillo crept toward the noise, police said. When a man inside lunged at him, police said, the confrontation was fatal.

The student "was backed up against a corner, and either out of fear or out of panic, he just struck the sword with force," said city police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi.

Pontolillo, who rents the off-campus home, nearly severed the man's left hand, inflicting what police called a "spear laceration."

Donald D. Rice of Baltimore, 49, a repeat offender who had been released from jail Saturday, died at the scene.

Guglielmi said the state's attorney's office will decide whether to charge Pontolillo, 20, of Wall, N.J.

In a statement Tuesday, Hopkins officials told students that there had been more than a half-dozen recent burglaries in the area and that the police presence would be bolstered.

Diego Ardila, a student who lived with Pontolillo in the home this summer, said, "From what little I know of him, he wasn't some guy going out to kill."

University of Maryland law professor David Gray said prosecutors must weigh whether Pontolillo thought he was in danger or became the aggressor. If he thought he might be severely harmed, then he was within his rights to protect himself, Gray said. "It doesn't matter if he used a gun, a sword or a frying pan."

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[Calrngr]

A Samurai Sword. Awesome.

[Burns76]

Glad to hear there's one less scum bag out there.

Flushing the toilet is better than turning on the fan.

[Abu-Shakra]

F*CK YEAH!!!!!

[LongWire]

University of Maryland law professor David Gray said prosecutors must weigh whether Pontolillo thought he was in danger or became the aggressor. If he thought he might be severely harmed, then he was within his rights to protect himself, Gray said. "It doesn't matter if he used a gun, a sword or a frying pan."


Let's hope the prosecutors aren't complete assholes. The deceased was just released from jail on Sat night.

Justice may be blind, but she isn't without a sense of humor!!!! :D:D

[Knight]

Good traditional kill!!

[Praetorian]

Pontolillo, who rents the off-campus home, nearly severed the man's left hand, inflicting what police called a "spear laceration."


He died from a cut to the hand? How long did it take for him to get medical attention?

[Bill Harsey]

He died from a cut to the hand? How long did it take for him to get medical attention?

I think there was more to it than that. The nearly or fully severed hand was just the more "spectacular injury" to report.

[Peregrino]

I'm pretty sure somebody screwed up their terminology in the report. Spears are used to inflict deep thrusting (penetrating) wounds. Chopping off hands isn't a normal spear attack (other polearms serve that function). A Katana on the other hand (:D) will do an excellent job of lopping off body parts.

[Slantwire]

I'm pretty sure somebody screwed up their terminology in the report. Spears are used to inflict deep thrusting (penetrating) wounds. Chopping off hands isn't a normal spear attack (other polearms serve that function). A Katana on the other hand (:D) will do an excellent job of lopping off body parts.

My first thought was a phone interviewer misheard "severe laceration."

[Utah Bob]

My first thought was a phone interviewer misheard "severe injury."

Yeah, probably said "severe laceration". And if it was a reasonably sharp Katana it wouldn't have been a "laceration" at all. I'd like to see the autopsy report.

[Pete]

Interesting comments following the original story I read a few days ago.

Camp One "Good for him" scum bag just out of jail was looking for an easy mark and became DRT.

Camp Two the "What right" crowd - call the cops - stay inside - nobody has the right to be judge, jury and executioner - a sword? - .

The dead perp had something like 27 run ins with the law and got out early on his latest charge?

"Cut Hand" The longer story I read when it happened gave the impression that the perp's hand was in front of his body and kinda' got in the way of the sword going in.

People remember - a sharp blade is a happy blade.

[frostfire]

He died from a cut to the hand? How long did it take for him to get medical attention?

Rice's left hand was nearly severed — Guglielmi described it as "hanging on by a thread" — and he suffered a severe cut to the upper body. He died at the scene.

If the student is skilled in tamashigiri and perform the act even remotely close to proper execution, I can only imagine the instantaneous massive hemorrhaging promptly followed by physiological as well as psychological shock. Yes, the perp would be DRT.

OTOH, if someone stole my laptops earlier in the day and then another intruder stopped by, I'd be in a bloodlust mode especially if they contain projects that haven't been backed up. I fear the student might be portrayed as having an intent to kill/harm when he confronted the intruder.

[rubberneck]

I don't know. If the perp lunged at him while he was thrust the blade forward it could quite easily have sliced through most of his wrist on the way to putting a hole in his thorax. If the report is true that he left his house, armed, to confront someone who he thought was burglarizing his garage he might be facing charges. I don't think he should but I could see a DA wanting to prosecute it.

[Pete]

.......If the report is true that he left his house, armed, to confront someone who he thought was burglarizing his garage he might be facing charges. I don't think he should but I could see a DA wanting to prosecute it.

Your house was burglarized a few hours earlier, the cops basicly tell you to pound sand, you here noises outside by your garage. What do you do?

"Hello 911" "Yes, could you send someone right away. I hear noises out by my garage." "We'll send an officer as soon as we get one clear."

Of course to "be on the safe side" he could have gone out there unarmed to take a look and the perp could have killed him. Then the cops, thugs and bleeding hearts would have been happy.

[Praetorian]

Your house was burglarized a few hours earlier, the cops basicly tell you to pound sand, you here noises outside by your garage. What do you do?

"Hello 911" "Yes, could you send someone right away. I hear noises out by my garage." "We'll send an officer as soon as we get one clear."

Of course to "be on the safe side" he could have gone out there unarmed to take a look and the perp could have killed him. Then the cops, thugs and bleeding hearts would have been happy.

Legally, I don't see that he did anything wrong.... He's allowed to go out to his garage, and he's allowed to arm himself on his own property if he thinks he may be accosted. Id be surprised if he gets charged (the one charge I see possible, and the crux of the sure to come civil suit may be that he "ALLOWED" the perp to bleed to death from what sounds like an otherwise minor injury rather than promptly getting him first aid- Reminiscent of the North Hollywood Shootout lawsuit.- Im not accusing him of this... Im just saying its something that could be an issue.)

In terms of SMART things to do.... He should've stayed in the safety of his house. He doesn't know what's out there, and whether a sword is up to the challenge. Plus.... He now owns a dead body, the headaches of which are going to be with him for the foreseeable future. (FWIW- Three years from now, when you, and I, and everybody else have forgotten about this story, this poor schmucks still going to be dealing with this mess).

How much will it cost to defend the inevitable civil suit? And how much of the "Stuff" in that garage that he went out to protect, will he now have to sell to pay an attorney? If one can at all avoid killing somebody, if for no other reason than the love of one's own pocketbook, By all means, AVOID IT....

[Pete]

..... and the crux of the sure to come civil suit may be that he "ALLOWED" the perp to bleed to death from what sounds like an otherwise minor injury rather than promptly getting him first aid- .......

Ah, I don't think a private citizen has the required haz mat protection to be getting down in the blood of a thug.

Bare fingers in blood have been a no-no in EMS for a while now right?

Just saying......

[HOLLiS]

How much will it cost to defend the inevitable civil suit? And how much of the "Stuff" in that garage that he went out to protect, will he now have to sell to pay an attorney? If one can at all avoid killing somebody, if for no other reason than the love of one's own pocketbook, By all means, AVOID IT....

Probably a very good legal advice.

Maybe we should never have stood up to:

The Brits, after all a long war follow, but we did win our independence.

"Evil prevails when good men does nothing. "

While the man did kill a perp, the perp put themselves in that position. That might say the man was only the vehicle to the suicide of the perp. I know it is not as simple as that, taking a life is costly to the conscience.

I guess I really don't have the words to explain why you are very wrong. I am sure many here who have CIBs and CARs know what I can not explain.

I keep thinking of quotes like, " I would rather die on feet than live on my knees" sort of stuff. I don't believe anyone has the right to mess with another person. If a person needed, I would give them the shirt of my back. If a person decided to take my shirt, I would fight them with all I had.

[Peregrino]

In terms of SMART things to do....

Smart isn't always right, otherwise Soldiers would never charge the machineguns. Sometimes it's about courage - and not surrendering to evil just because it's safer/easier.

[Praetorian]

Smart isn't always right, otherwise Soldiers would never charge the machineguns. Sometimes it's about courage - and not surrendering to evil just because it's safer/easier.

Correct.... But you have to do a cost/benefit analysis.

The cost/benefit of charging the machine guns may be that some men die, but others live. And in battle, COURAGE makes a DIFFERENCE to the outcome of the overall campaign.

The cost of charging the guy in your garage means a you saved a bunch of "stuff" that you dont value enough to keep in your home, (or to save an automobile, which is probably insured)....

The end question on LIFE AND DEATH ISSUES, has to be "would I DIE MYSELF, to protect this?"

For things like the protection of country, comrades or (as the poster two above analogized) the foundations of freedom, then MOST here, including me, would answer "YES."

Same goes for my children, or spouse- I would jump in front of the 10:15 to protect them.

But am I going to rush the crackhead for that rusty lawnmower that my homeowners insurance will give me $50 for? And possibly have those children and family who depend on me be without me?

On that one, I have to say "Mow away sparky."



I keep thinking of quotes like, " I would rather die on feet than live on my knees" sort of stuff. I don't believe anyone has the right to mess with another person. If a person needed, I would give them the shirt of my back. If a person decided to take my shirt, I would fight them with all I had.

Nobody has a right to take your stuff..... But honestly- If youre willing to fight to the death over a shirt you admit youd gladly give away for free.... You're fighting merely to preserve your PRIDE.

And the quote that comes to mind for me is "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16

[Utah Bob]

Correct.... But you have to do a cost/benefit analysis.

The cost/benefit of charging the machine guns may be that some men die, but others live. And there COURAGE makes a DIFFERENCE at the end of the battle.

The cost of charging the guy in your garage means a you saved a bunch of "stuff" that you dont value enough to keep in your home, (or to save an automobile, which is probably insured)....

The end question on LIFE AND DEATH ISSUES, has to be "would I DIE MYSELF, to protect this?"

For things like the protection of country or (as the poster two above analogized) the foundations of freedom, then MOST here would answer "YES."

Same goes for my children, or spouse- I would jump in front of the 10:15 to protect them.

But am I going to rush the methhead for that rusty lawnmower that my homeowners insurance will give me $50 for?

On that one, I have to say "Mow away sparky."

Trust me, in a tight situation when the shit is hitting the fan you don't bother to to a cost/benefit analysis. You react and do what you think is the right thing to do. He thought that protecting his own life was the right thing to do.

[HOLLiS]

Nobody has a right to take your stuff..... But honestly- If youre willing to fight to the death over a shirt you admit youd gladly give away for free.... You're fighting merely to preserve your PRIDE.


No sir, you are very very wrong. Pride has nothing to do with it.

[Praetorian]

Trust me, in a tight situation when the shit is hitting the fan you don't bother to to a cost/benefit analysis. You react and do what you think is the right thing to do. He thought that protecting his own life was the right thing to do.

Wait a second....

Im not at ALL questioning his use of the sword once the bad-guy came at him.... I have been in a use of force situation. The cost benefit analysis is easy, instantaneous and quite primal- They want me dead; I don't want to be dead: Fight, Fight with whatever you've got, and keep fighting until they stop.


Im questioning his decision to LEAVE THE SAFETY of his home to go out to a garage, to protect his stuff. A decision that will DEFINITELY cost him $50,000-100,000 if not MUCH more.... I doubt he stood to loose that much if he stayed in his home. THATS the decision that HE SHOULD have thought about, when he had the opportunity to do so soberly and deliberately, while not facing a life and death struggle.




No sir, you are very very wrong. Pride has nothing to do with it.

Well then explain it.... You just said you'd give him your shirt if he needed it, but you'd fight him to the death to keep him from taking it?


Clearly you're not fighting to preserve your life.

You're not fighting to protect your country.

You're not fighting to protect your family.

You're not even fighting to protect the shirt because you clearly don't NEED it as you'd gladly give it away.


WHAT are you then fighting for if not to protect your pride?

[LongWire]

Im questioning his decision to LEAVE THE SAFETY of his home to go out to a garage, to protect his stuff. A decision that will DEFINITELY cost him $50,000-100,000 if not MUCH more.... I doubt he stood to loose that much if he stayed in his home. THATS the decision that HE SHOULD have thought about, when he had the opportunity to do so soberly and deliberately, while not facing a life and death struggle.


Sorry I'm not going to armchair QB this one.

That being said you may be correct in the letter of the law sense (state dependent).
This is only because of the erosion our freedoms to the lawyers and of like minded people, such as yourself, that have allowed the interpretations and erosion of our freedom to happen in the first place. That and alot of arm chair QB's.

My $.02....................


After doing some research I found, You are a Lawyer.......so I stand correct.

[Sigaba]

Well then explain it.He already did.
I don't believe anyone has the right to mess with another person. If a person needed, I would give them the shirt of my back. If a person decided to take my shirt, I would fight them with all I had.

[HOLLiS]

Praetorian, I am kind of beat up, if I got on my knees, I probably would not be able to get up. I don't want to spend the rest of my life on my knees.


You seem so sure that a perp would be satisfied with just taking my shirt. I am not sure.

At what point do you get on your knees?

My mind says no one should be forced too.

Recently a local man (City not far from here) was walking his dog at 4:30 AM. Another man came up to him and told him to give him his money. He had none so the other man beat him senseless. He died a few days later from complications of the beating. The guy walking his dog was 75 years old.


Maybe the perp, dealt with people like you advocate. Hey, just give him your money, not worth the fight or the risk.

Now a old joke, At a cocktail party a man and women was discussing prostitution. She said she would not do it. Finally after some talking, she said she would do it for one million dollars and only one time.

The guy said, "OK, so how about $5.00?"

She replied, "you got to be kidding, the terms was one million dollars."

He countered by saying, "The discussion was to determine if you were a prostitute, now we are just haggling over price."

So the question is how cheap do you sell yourself. At what point do you stand up to evil? You may decide you are willing to live on your knees some of the time. How sure are you that the perp is going to let you get on your feet again?

Interesting that you quote the Bible. So choose whom you serve? Bow before man or not, your call.

[The Reaper]

Wait a second....

Im not at ALL questioning his use of the sword once the bad-guy came at him.... I have been in a use of force situation. The cost benefit analysis is easy, instantaneous and quite primal- They want me dead; I don't want to be dead: Fight, Fight with whatever you've got, and keep fighting until they stop.


Im questioning his decision to LEAVE THE SAFETY of his home to go out to a garage, to protect his stuff. A decision that will DEFINITELY cost him $50,000-100,000 if not MUCH more.... I doubt he stood to loose that much if he stayed in his home. THATS the decision that HE SHOULD have thought about, when he had the opportunity to do so soberly and deliberately, while not facing a life and death struggle.






Well then explain it.... You just said you'd give him your shirt if he needed it, but you'd fight him to the death to keep him from taking it?


Clearly you're not fighting to preserve your life.

You're not fighting to protect your country.

You're not fighting to protect your family.

You're not even fighting to protect the shirt because you clearly don't NEED it as you'd gladly give it away.


WHAT are you then fighting for if not to protect your pride?


I'd say he is exercising his lawful rights.

As stated, you do not know what the intruder is there for, what his intentions are, or what he may be armed with. If he has forced entry into your property, and is not an invited guest, that is all you need to know.

TR

[dennisw]

THATS the decision that HE SHOULD have thought about, when he had the opportunity to do so soberly and deliberately, while not facing a life and death struggle.

I'm not sure upon realizing someone is breaking into our garages, how many of us are capable of assessing the situation in a sober and deliberate manner. If one is to be judged by one's peers, that is the standard. As an attorney, Praetorian, assessing things in terms of legality, costs and benefits, etc. may be your SOP. You may have developed "muscle memory" if you will, in how you approach most conflicts. After a extended carreer of legal conflicts where the inherent intensity rivals that of the instant case, where clients lives or their economic lives hang in the balance, to expect you to react in a manner that is not swayed by sober analysis is probably unreasonable. No doubt, it's your nature.

However, I would contend that most who are sheepdogs or have a history of being sheepdogs would probably not react in a sobering manner and take the time to weigh the cost benefits . It is not their nature. The impulse which drives one to become a sheepdog, is the very impulse which motivates one to go to the garage to see what is happening. The righteous indignation of having someone attempting to steal their rusty lawnmower is to great an emotion. For a sheepdog to sit and not move to the sound of battle is to say simply "I do not exist, I am not worthy of my ideals."

On the bright side, the young man in question got to keep his rusty lawnmower, the bad guy now will have to reconcile his status with his maker, and if you slightly tilt your head upward and sniff the air, you will notice that is just a little sweeter.

[Praetorian]

Praetorian, I am kind of beat up, if I got on my knees, I probably would not be able to get up. I don't want to spend the rest of my life on my knees.


You seem so sure that a perp would be satisfied with just taking my shirt. I am not sure.







I know first hand that the perp isnt always satisfied with the stuff in the garage or the shirt, or the cash..... But as long as HES out there.... And IM IN HERE.... The stuff in the garage is all hes going to get.... And Im not going on my knees.... Im buying his life, my life, and the freedom to not be armchair quarterbacked by the D.A., The Police, and a jury (or two). All for the price of the crap in my garage? That's a good bargain in my book. I call the cops for that and hope they get there before he takes off..... Now... If he decided to come in the house, then he's left me no choice and a samurai sword is the least of his worries.

So the question is how cheap do you sell yourself.

EXACTLY..... I value my life, and my freedom a hell of a lot more than my material belongings (which I know I will probably have to SELL to pay off one of my brethren to defend me).


Recently a local man (City not far from here) was walking his dog at 4:30 AM. Another man came up to him and told him to give him his money. He had none so the other man beat him senseless. He died a few days later from complications of the beating.

I think the point I'm trying to make is, If the old man KNEW the robber was going to accost him, beat him, and kill him, at that particular spot at that particular time, I can guarantee he would have picked a different time and route to walk his dog. But he, like most victims of crime, have no such forewarning. One second he was walking his dog, the next instance he was in a losing struggle for his life. The young man with the sword was at no such disadvantage. He had a choice to avoid trouble and chose not to....

And I find the story quite haunting..... You might want to check out MY website.....

[Praetorian]

I'm not sure upon realizing someone is breaking into our garages, how many of us are capable of assessing the situation in a sober and deliberate manner.

Thats why you should think about it before it happens..... ;) This is a serious subject.... One that I take quite seriously.... And I admit, when I was the Samarai swordsman's age, I probably would have been flying out to the garage as well.....

But WHY? Whats in the garage thats worth that hassle? In my case, NOTHING... And Ive got a car collection worth a half million dollars sitting in my garage. I also have a crapload of insurance and an umbrella policy.... So why the hell would I risk myself for some steel and rubber? I mean, I could get into a wreck tomorrow with one of my cars.... I could total it.... I'm sure as hell not going to jump out of the heap and commit harry carry over a lost automobile. I wouldn't run back into the burning garage to save the cars (or any of the other crap in there).... So why would I risk losing my life to save it from a person?

[Pete]

[QUOTE=Praetorian;285143]..... If the old man KNEW the robber was going to accost him, beat him, and kill him, at that particular spot at that particular time, I can guarantee he would have picked time and route to walk his dog...... [QUOTE]

If the old man had an idea he might be accosted he might have packed a pistol and just shot the thug after the first swing.

I walk my dogs at all times and do not expect to be accosted on a walk through the neighborhood. If people were being accosted and robbed in my neighborhood I would not stop walking, I would carry potection.

So if a female ran up to your door at 2:00AM pounding on it and screaming "He's killing me, he's killing me" * You would keep the door closed and call the cops?

* Note - I used just about the worst example I could think of - far too many moving pieces in it.

[Praetorian]

[QUOTE=Praetorian;285143]..... If the old man KNEW the robber was going to accost him, beat him, and kill him, at that particular spot at that particular time, I can guarantee he would have picked time and route to walk his dog...... [QUOTE]

If the old man had an idea he might be accosted he might have packed a pistol and just shot the thug after the first swing.

I walk my dogs at all times and do not expect to be accosted on a walk through the neighborhood. If people were being accosted and robbed in my neighborhood I would not stop walking, I would carry potection.

So if a female ran up to your door at 2:00AM pounding on it and screaming "He's killing me, he's killing me" * You would keep the door closed and call the cops?



Hey... Im all for the man carrying a gun and shooting the bad guys if they threaten him.... Im not suggesting that he stay in his house for eternity to avoid crime..... But if he KNEW before hand, without a DOUBT that he was going to be accosted at that time.... Wouldnt it be wiser, gun or no gun to JUST NOT GO THERE?


And if a PERSON (the woman outside the door) is in need of help, YOU BET I'll intervene. Where I draw the line, is the protection of CHATTEL. Interestingly, thats where the LAW draws the line as well (and this isnt an EROSION of the law.... The law of self defense goes back HUNDREDS of years to English common law and the rule has ALWAYS been you cant use lethal force to preserve property- Only to protect HUMAN LIFE).


* Note - I used just about the worst example I could think of - far too many moving pieces in it. :D Its OK... The Kitty Genovese story is one of the most appalling yet applicable to this subject.

[systaltic]

Thats why you should think about it before it happens..... ;) This is a serious subject.... One that I take quite seriously.... And I admit, when I was the Samarai swordsman's age, I probably would have been flying out to the garage as well.....

But WHY? Whats in the garage thats worth that hassle? In my case, NOTHING... And Ive got a car collection worth a half million dollars sitting in my garage. I also have a crapload of insurance and an umbrella policy.... So why the hell would I risk myself for some steel and rubber? I mean, I could get into a wreck tomorrow with one of my cars.... I could total it.... I'm sure as hell not going to jump out of the heap and commit harry carry over a lost automobile. I wouldn't run back into the burning garage to save the cars (or any of the other crap in there).... So why would I risk losing my life to save it from a person?

Then, can I have one of your cars? You can just leave the garage door open for me; you won't even know that I was there until the next day.

[The Reaper]

The law of self defense goes back HUNDREDS of years to English common law and the rule has ALWAYS been you cant use lethal force to preserve property- Only to protect HUMAN LIFE).

Counsel, I would submit that that is not the case in all states and localities, nor has it been in the US. I would be careful about using the word "always".

Many states enforced theft of livestock with a death penalty.

Many today, allow defense of property, particularly a home or attached garage with lethal force.

TR

[Defender968]

Where I draw the line, is the protection of CHATTEL. Interestingly, thats where the LAW draws the line as well (and this isnt an EROSION of the law.... The law of self defense goes back HUNDREDS of years to English common law and the rule has ALWAYS been you cant use lethal force to preserve property- Only to protect HUMAN LIFE).

Not true, it is highly dependent on the state you live in, in Commifornia I would agree with you, in TX not so much. DISCLAIMER CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS!

From Texas Penal Code:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.


Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

[Praetorian]

Then, can I have one of your cars? You can just leave the garage door open for me; you won't even know that I was there until the next day.

No. :D

[Praetorian]

Counsel, I would submit that that is not the case in all states and localities, nor has it been in the US. I would be careful about using the word "always".

Many states enforced theft of livestock with a death penalty.

Many today, allow defense of property, particularly a home or attached garage with lethal force.

TR


Death penalty and Self Defense are tremendously different areas of law. But yes... That was correct at one time. Now the Supreme Court has ruled that the ONLY crime against people that can carry the death penalty is murder, (Crimes against the state such as treason are also eligible for the death penalty) See Kennedy v. Louisiana.

And yes, Texas has recently widened the scope of its castle doctrine to presumably allow for lethal force for the protection of property. But it is definitely the RECENT EXCEPTION to the rule.

But from what I understand (and I may be wrong) the case in question is about a DETACHED garage "Out back" behind the dwelling?

Now it was past midnight, and Pontolillo heard noises coming from the garage out back.
The Johns Hopkins University undergraduate didn't run. He didn't call the police. He grabbed his samurai sword.
[aside- An attorney is going to SKEWER him, no pun intended, for not at least calling the police BEFORE he went out to the garage... And tactically, its a dumb thing to do.... At least call the cops so that if you are outnumbered you have help on the way....]

Agreed.... If the burglar enters an attached garage, HE'S IN THE HOUSE.

Again.... my comments are directed at the facts of THIS particular case. Detached garage, no people being threatened, no immediate threat to enter the home itself, etc.

One more time.... I have no problem with his USE OF FORCE once he was threatened..... Whether he was in the garage, his house, or walking down the street. I think his actions were all lawful.

I think his going out to the garage when he knew somebody was out there was ill advised and uneconomical. (TOTALLY LAWFUL, however)

[greenberetTFS]

No. :D

P,

We have a big rally down here in Mississippi called "Cruisin the Coast" with attendance of about 15,000 people and cars......:D Have you ever attended it? ;)

Big Teddy :munchin

[Praetorian]

P,

We have a big rally down here in Mississippi called "Cruisin the Coast" with attendance of about 15,000 people and cars......:D Have you ever attended it? ;)

Big Teddy :munchin

No I have not..... I am a frequent attendee of a weekly meet in Orange County CA called "Cars And Coffee".

[HOLLiS]

There is noise in my garage. What shall I do?

A person is attacked and seeks my garage for shelter. In entering my garage he makes noise. I don't check it out. Cops arrive 30 minutes after I call 911. They find a dead body in my garage, died from injuries from being beaten. If I would have checked out the noise he might have survived.

BTW, I live rural so 30 minutes might be the real fast time on the response. Also I had a 1st responder card and numerous 1st Aid classes over time, I just might have been able help him survived.


Part II.

Criminal A, steals my mover, He knows I am home and refuse to come out.

Criminal A, now develops a view of how I will respond. He needs a car and know I am good for it. He takes my car.

So you can see how this will continue. Do you really know how far the perp will go. I just don't trust them as much as you seem to do. Bullies don't stop with one act of bullying. Perps are sort of similar to bullies.

First of all, it is my garage. I need to know why the noise. Just like in this situation the perp did not have to attack the guy, but did. I am not going to just shoot anyone who is in my garage.

Example: A guy is taking my mower, I call him on it. He responds, "Your not Uncle Mike, who are you?" I reply, "I am the owner here." The guy says something like, "OH! ____, I am at the wrong place?"

"My Uncle Mike, told me to come to his new house and grab his mower."

Turns our Uncle Mike is my neighbor.


Now I probably would have my shotgun or katana or something in hand when I went out to see what the noise is about (I also have mountain lions where I live, black bears, etc) Depending on what develops, I probably would not use them. But if the perp want something more, such as attacking me, I would be forced to use it.

I think in this case we know how it panned out. In life, at the beginning of a event, we never know until it is all over. If there is noise on my property I will check it out. If perps are involved, obviously a 911 call, if it is a bear, mountain lion... I will call the taxidermist.

[BryanK]

Here is a kind of outdated update (Sep 17):Sun Article (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-sword-killing0917,0,16472.story)
Also, here is another with a video with the family of the burglary suspect a day earlier: Sun article 2 (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-md.samurai16sep16,0,114199.story?page=2)
I'm sorry, but the things his sister was saying irritated the crap out of me. Sorry for her loss, but c'mon now. The mayor's input is unnerving as well.

[Utah Bob]

Praetorian, just to make it clear to my old law dawg mind...are you saying that in a case where defending chattel might lead to a confrontation and possible use of force, up to and including deadly force, that a person should take no direct action other than to notify the police?

[Praetorian]

There is noise in my garage. What shall I do?

A person is attacked and seeks my garage for shelter. In entering my garage he makes noise. I don't check it out. Cops arrive 30 minutes after I call 911. They find a dead body in my garage, died from injuries from being beaten. If I would have checked out the noise he might have survived.

BTW, I live rural so 30 minutes might be the real fast time on the response. Also I had a 1st responder card and numerous 1st Aid classes over time, I just might have been able help him survived.


Part II.

Criminal A, steals my mover, He knows I am home and refuse to come out.

Criminal A, now develops a view of how I will respond. He needs a car and know I am good for it. He takes my car.

So you can see how this will continue. Do you really know how far the perp will go. I just don't trust them as much as you seem to do. Bullies don't stop with one act of bullying. Perps are sort of similar to bullies.

First of all, it is my garage. I need to know why the noise. Just like in this situation the perp did not have to attack the guy, but did. I am not going to just shoot anyone who is in my garage.

Example: A guy is taking my mower, I call him on it. He responds, "Your not Uncle Mike, who are you?" I reply, "I am the owner here." The guy says something like, "OH! ____, I am at the wrong place?"

"My Uncle Mike, told me to come to his new house and grab his mower."

Turns our Uncle Mike is my neighbor.


Now I probably would have my shotgun or katana or something in hand when I went out to see what the noise is about (I also have mountain lions where I live, black bears, etc) Depending on what develops, I probably would not use them. But if the perp want something more, such as attacking me, I would be forced to use it.


NONE of these scenarios are EASY.... But its GOOD to think about them first.... Obviously, you cant call the cops every time you hear a noise in your garage- They'll label you 5150.... And if trouble finds you DESPITE your efforts to avoid it, then kick ass.... But if you can AVOID IT, you shouldn't kill somebody unless there is JUST ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CHOICE.


Heres an incident that happened to me:

About a month after my son was born.... My wife and I were sleeping in shifts... I took the Afternoons and LATE night..... She took the Evenings and Mornings.... We lived in Hollywood at the time (Hollywood has a LOT of crime).... Our detached garage was on an alley right behind Melrose Avenue.... (A busy shopping street with lots of foot traffic, clubs, bars, etc)..... The alley was used by the Valet Parking attendants (most of whom no hablais) to park cars, speed to their lots, etc, and it was always our fear that one of them would crash into our house....

8pm.... Im asleep. My wife comes in to wake me up... "The valets are on the porch.... They say somebody ran into the garage."


I get up and assume they mean somebody "Crashed a car into my garage". Just the same, its a scary alley and I never went out there unarmed.... I grab my gun, start walking out and realize the garage light is on..... "WTF??? I forgot to turn the light off???" I get closer and see the small door is OPEN.... "???"

All of a sudden, this *&^%$# bum comes out the door with my &^% in his arms....

"HEY- WTF are you doing???" "Oh... Hey man... I need someplace to stay... Can I stay here?"

"NO!... You cant *&^%ing STAY HERE.... Get the *&^% out of here" (yes.... I'm actually having this conversation.... :rolleyes: ) I start backing up..... He is still coming at me, all the while selling me this "Im a harmless homeless guy" act....

It finally clicks in my head that Ive now walked backwards about 5 yards, hes still coming towards me, I cant see his hands and the only thing between my family and him is me....

I level the gun at him (which up to now Ive kept hidden) and say "STOP. LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS. I WILL SHOOT YOU!" (and believe me... I absolutely meant it.)

He stops dead in his tracks... says "Dont shoot me man... I have a little dog that needs me... Ill go" (honestly, you cant make this crap up). He drops the stuff hes carrying Turns and RUNS BACK into the garage and I hear him running down the alley on the other side of my fence.... (He had PULLED a corner of the overhead door OPEN wide enough to fit through, despite the fact it was locked).

I run back into the house, lock the doors, call the cops and make sure my wife and boy were OK... Thats my #1 priority. I could have chased him..... He could have had two friends kicking in my front door...

[Praetorian]

Praetorian, just to make it clear to my old law dawg mind...are you saying that in a case where defending chattel might lead to a confrontation and possible use of force, up to and including deadly force, that a person should take no direct action other than to notify the police?

I'm saying, if you CAN avoid a violent confrontation, YOU SHOULD. This particular incident turned out WELL (The bad guy is dead, the good guy is unharmed but is in for quite a ride for the foreseeable future).

But we could just as easily be reading that the good guy was jumped by 5 dudes and decapitated with his own sword..... For what? A hunk of junk he wont have a few years from now anyways?

[The Reaper]

I'm sorry.

I am a sheepdog, and I cannot be a sheep. It is not in my nature.

TR

[Red Flag 1]

Praetorian,

Your bio indicates you are an attorney. Are you an ACLU attorney?

RF 1

[Praetorian]

Praetorian,

Your bio indicates you are an attorney. Are you an ACLU attorney?

RF 1

NO... Im not..... And I consider that quite insulting.

[Red Flag 1]

NO... Im not..... And I consider that quite insulting.

Glad to hear that!

RF 1

[Defender968]

Here is a kind of outdated update (Sep 17):Sun Article (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-sword-killing0917,0,16472.story)
Also, here is another with a video with the family of the burglary suspect a day earlier: Sun article 2 (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-md.samurai16sep16,0,114199.story?page=2)
I'm sorry, but the things his sister was saying irritated the crap out of me. Sorry for her loss, but c'mon now. The mayor's input is unnerving as well.

Her comments irritated me as well, it always annoys me when a criminal’s family makes a scene after they get hurt or killed because of their own actions, at least she admitted he had no reason to be there, half the time in my experience they don't even go that far they just blame everyone else. While it is sad that she has lost a brother his death will probably decrease the crime rate in that area, save tax payer dollars and the reality is he was probably a drain on society anyway. Bottom line in my book is don't be a criminal.

Personally I don't really have a problem with what the kid did, it might cost him in the long run financially, but it's his property and I can understand the desire to defend it.

I've heard bumps in the night in my house, and when I do, I grab a weapon and a flashlight and clear the area, thankfully I haven’t found any uninvited guests in my house. Calling 911 is great if you can't or won't do for yourself, but personally having been an LEO and in the military I know I can shoot straight and defend myself, my wife and my property, and it's not going to take me 10 minutes to get to the scene.

Just my .02

[Sigaba]

This is a serious subject[.] One that I take quite seriously[.]
Do you? Then--

Why do you refer to Mr. Pontolillo as a "poor schmuck"?
Why do you assail Hollis by alleging that he is motivated by pride rather than honor and dignity?
Why do you denigrate habitually the intelligence, sanity, judgment, and character of people who make different decisions than you think they should make or allege that you would have made in those same circumstances?

[BryanK]

..... For what? A hunk of junk he wont have a few years from now anyways?

No disrespect, but I see you using this line a lot. It wasn't about "stuff". It was about his welfare. Think about it. He'd been burglarized earlier in the day. Douchebag returns. The resident has no idea what the guy's intentions are, grabs his buddies and an instrument of defense to help search since the police were ineffective. He maybe would like to freakin' sleep before class the next day or something along those lines. His peace of mind was why he went outside to confront, not for any material belongings. As far as the outcome, it was what it was. Baltimore is not known for peaceful burglars, however shootings are down this year :).

[Praetorian]

I'm sorry.

I am a sheepdog, and I cannot be a sheep. It is not in my nature.

TR

I'm not suggesting you be a sheep.... I'm suggesting you be a wise sheepdog...

Im not a sheep by a long shot... But I am a realist...

The fact is, the loser in the garage, is not the only threat. He may have accomplices who may be a threat... And if the Sheepdog is off chasing the first wolf who runs through the field, he isn't protecting the flock.

And if you screw up... just a little, The police and D.A. will become a threat to your freedom.

And there will be another attorney who WILL be a threat to your financial security.



You may not like it.... (I don't like it) But you cant say I'M WRONG.

[Praetorian]

Do you? Then--

Why do you refer to Mr. Pontolillo as a "poor schmuck"?
Why do you assail Hollis by alleging that he is motivated by pride rather than honor and dignity?
Why do you denigrate habitually the intelligence, sanity, judgment, and character of people who make different decisions than you think they should make or allege that you would have made in those same circumstances?



1. "Poor schmuck" is a term I use sympathetically... This kid is about to be truly victimized. The next several years of his life are going to SUCK. I suspect he will have difficulties completing his studies, especially if financing is an issue in his life.... And that's the real tragedy here.

2. I did not "Assail" anybody. And fwiw "Honor" and "Dignity" are other words for PRIDE.


Rogets Thesaurus:
Main Entry: pride
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: self-esteem
Synonyms:
amour-propre, delight, dignity, ego, ego trip, egoism, egotism, face, gratification, happiness, honor, joy, pleasure, pridefulness, repletion, satisfaction, self-admiration, self-confidence, self-glorification, self-love, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, self-sufficiency, self-trust, self-worth, sufficiency

3. I have not denigrated anybody. I think this young man shouldn't have gone out to the garage when he did. But I challenge you to find a single post where I have been anything but respectful. I would suspect that if five years from now, after his life has been turned inside out by this incident, if we ask this young man "would you do it all the same?" He'd acknowledge going out there was a bad decision that had long lasting negative repercussions in his life.

[Praetorian]

No disrespect, but I see you using this line a lot. It wasn't about "stuff".


He maybe would like to freakin' sleep before class the next day or something along those lines. His peace of mind was why he went outside to confront, not for any material belongings.

I assumed he's going out there to protect his "Stuff". However you do make a great point I had not considered.

[Praetorian]

Guglielmi said Pontolillo made one downward strike towards Rice, hitting him in the neck and the hand. Rice's hand was nearly severed, and he bled to death at the scene. And this explains my initial question about him dying from a cut hand....

[The Reaper]

I'm not suggesting you be a sheep.... I'm suggesting you be a wise sheepdog...

Im not a sheep by a long shot... But I am a realist...

The fact is, the loser in the garage, is not the only threat. He may have accomplices who may be a threat... And if the Sheepdog is off chasing the first wolf who runs through the field, he isn't protecting the flock.

Are you implying that I (and my flock) am tactically incapable of securing the flock and simultaneously apprehending (or eliminating, if threatened) an intruder or two?

I have some Sims if you have a notion to try and prove your point.

I have the right here in NC to investigate strange noises on my property, and if confronted by a trespasser who presents an armed threat to myself or my family, to engage him with lethal force, if necessary.

Highly doubtful here that the above scenario would result in me being charged, or indicated, IMHO.

TR

[Sacamuelas]

You may not like it.... (I don't like it) But you cant say I'M WRONG.
You are WRONG. I said it.

It used to amaze me that someone so well educated could be so ignorant to the fact that he/she is not infallible. This post simply reconfirms my disappointment in the liberal dominated higher education system. The system promotes the "greater than thou... I know what is best for everyone" mind set.

You should not feel the need to give TR advice on being "wise". Again, your lack of SA is simply disheartening.

All members of this site are encouraged to argue their opinions to the fullest. You might, however, want to reorient yourself to argue your points about risk/benefit to include a presentation style that doesn't personally insult the people you are debating. [/Hijack]

[Praetorian]

Are you implying that I (and my flock) am tactically incapable of securing the flock and simultaneously apprehending (or eliminating, if threatened) an intruder or two?

I have some Sims if you have a notion to try and prove your point.

I have the right here in NC to investigate strange noises on my property, and if confronted by a trespasser who presents an armed threat to myself or my family, to engage him with lethal force, if necessary.

Highly doubtful here that the above scenario would result in me being charged, or indicated, IMHO.

TR

I dont question your abilities in the least.... However I also don't believe that running blindly into an unknown situation without having a plan, and backup plan is part of a professional's tactics. This young man had none of those or your skills.

I dont think he will be charged or indicted either. But he may.... Its Maryland after all.... It comes down to HIS WORD versus a D.A.. D.A.s have a long history of charging people who claim self defense... BUT.... I KNOW he will be SUED. And thats going to cost him a lot of time, money and aggravation even though he will probably WIN.

[Praetorian]

You are WRONG. I said it.



[/Hijack]



The fact is, the loser in the garage, is not the only threat. He may have accomplices who may be a threat... And if the Sheepdog is off chasing the first wolf who runs through the field, he isn't protecting the flock.

And if you screw up... just a little, The police and D.A. will become a threat to your freedom.

And there will be another attorney who WILL be a threat to your financial security.

What exactly about the above is wrong? Ive witnessed all of the above FIRST HAND.... And I did not learn it in my "liberal higher education." I learned it from being the sheepdog....

The fact is, I WAS THIS KID.... I WAS nearly murdered. I did fight back (with lawful force). I was SEVERELY injured. My life WAS turned INSIDE OUT. The police DID treat me like the criminal. Twenty years later.... If I had to do it all over again.... And if I had known all that would happen before I walked down that street, I would have stayed home that night. ;)

[Pete]

........The fact is, I WAS THIS KID.... I WAS nearly murdered. I did fight back (with lawful force). I was SEVERELY injured. My life WAS turned INSIDE OUT. The police DID treat me like the criminal. Twenty years later.... If I had to do it all over again.... And if I had known all that would happen before I walked down that street, I would have stayed home that night. ;)


Do you think the action as stated above may influence your views to this day?

[Praetorian]

Do you think the action as stated above may influence your views to this day?

ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY! Id be an idiot if I didn't learn from it?




And my purpose for discussing it (trust me.... This is an incredibly painful subject for me....) is a guide for what really CAN (WILL) happen....
And then its up to everybody else to decide for themselves whats worth going through that for.

Thankfully for me... It all worked out.... But it was not something I would voluntarily sign up for again unless the stakes were absolutely unacceptable.

The law of Self Defense and the implications of its use has become a hobby and passion of mine.... Its a CRIME what victims go through. The impact stuff like this can have on ones life is EXTREME....

Forewarned is forearmed.

[casey]

How much will it cost to defend the inevitable civil suit? And how much of the "Stuff" in that garage that he went out to protect, will he now have to sell to pay an attorney? If one can at all avoid killing somebody, if for no other reason than the love of one's own pocketbook, By all means, AVOID IT....


Well, then you've already made the decision to let this toad take all your "stuff" that he wants from your garage/property, plus you've done the right thing an notified your local police, and they should be along any day now to handle that "investigate a noise" complaint you called in. You have successfully avoided a pesky civil suit and negated the need for attorneys fees......well done.....this night.

But now I (he) know where the easy pickins are, and I come back next Tuesday night and notice no car in the driveway, and your lights out - who knew you'd be out of town on business - once inside your house however, if forget (temporarly) all about your camera/plasama screen/and trinkets and turn my attention to the lone female or kids inside.....

From my experience, most burglars and house thieves are creatures of predatory oppurtunity who are only caught at a rate of one out of every twenty or more crimes they commit (at least here). Like most predators, they absolutely do return to target rich environments over and over again.

And before you tell me I have a vivid imagination - I have handled several of these jobs - and the victims were never the same.

So my thoughts are, if this kid wanted to go outside to protect his property or even to investigate what he thought was something occurring on his property, that is his choice, and one he made relying on instinct, upbringing, and other stimuli.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with love of ones/my pocketbook but quite simply - who the fuck are you to come uninvited onto my property and steal from me? - and yes I intend to make sure you remember this evening, thru your crack haze, as a no go area.

[Red Flag 1]

Praetorian,

This has become a very hot thread. You are defending your position here most admirably. I expect John Pontolillo was intending to do the same when he went to HIS garage. John defended himself when the perp lunged at him. That the perp died was a direct result of criminal trespass and a clear attempt to physicaly harm John Pontolillo. John did what he had to to stay alive. Our system of laws should be able to support that, and not the perp!

I hear your plea for restraint. I recognize your personal brush with a similar event. I also see your need to defend your position, as did John. As you well know, there tons of cases where the perp wins in the end. I don't like that much; I don't expect you do either. IMHO, it comes down to what a person will do to defend self, family and property. Lawyers be damned, I'll do what I have to to stay alive, and protect my family; at any cost.



My $.02.

RF 1

[Praetorian]

But now I (he) know where the easy pickins are, and I come back next Tuesday night and notice no car in the driveway, and your lights out - who knew you'd be out of town on business - once inside your house however, if forget (temporarly) all about your camera/plasama screen/and trinkets and turn my attention to the lone female or kids inside.....

From my experience, most burglars and house thieves are creatures of predatory oppurtunity who are only caught at a rate of one out of every twenty or more crimes they commit (at least here). Like most predators, they absolutely do return to target rich environments over and over again.

And before you tell me I have a vivid imagination - I have handled several of these jobs - and the victims were never the same.


I dont think you have an overactive imagination at all.... I am aware of the threat of returning criminals....

However, you used me specifically as an example (one which I dont think would apply to the case at hand- as a young single student, he will be either home where he can defend himself as he did, or not home at all).

I mean absolutely no glibness, humor, or insult by this.... And you can read into the following what you will. But I DO NOT TRAVEL OVER NIGHT without my family. EVER. I AM NEARLY ALWAYS HOME when my wife and children are.... And my home is not an easy target for break-in. I have no illusions that it is impenetrable, but I have taken some fairly unorthodox steps to provide me with time between me being made aware of a burglars approach to my house and their eventual entrance. During which time I can prepare to greet them accordingly.

[Praetorian]

Lawyers be damned, I'll do what I have to to stay alive, and protect my family; at any cost.





You will get NO argument from me on that one. ;)

[Sigaba]

But I challenge you to find a single post where I have been anything but respectful.If such were the case then what accounts for the nature of the numerous replies you've received from other members of this BB in this thread?

But since you offered the challenge.The fact is, I WAS THIS KID.... I WAS nearly murdered. I did fight back (with lawful force). I was SEVERELY injured. My life WAS turned INSIDE OUT. The police DID treat me like the criminal. Twenty years later.... If I had to do it all over again.... And if I had known all that would happen before I walked down that street, I would have stayed home that night. ;)The fact is that you are not this "kid." Mr. Pontolillo, whom you "sympathetically" call a "schmuck":confused:, is his own person. Rather than attempting to understand him on his own terms within the context of the moment and to use that as an opportunity to exchange viewpoints, you have decided to dehumanize him so he can be a prop in your ongoing efforts to square your sense of self with a traumatic experience in your past. Along the way, you have brushed aside repeatedly contrasting viewpoints by insinuating that those who disagree with you do so because they've not thought things through the way you have. (Incidentally, you're not offering guidance that is new.)

So by my tally, you've disrespected Mr. Pontolillo. You have disrespected those who dare to disagree with you. Most ominously, you invite disrespect upon yourself.

[The Reaper]

Just because you can be sued, in some cases, successfully, for defending yourself, does not mean that it is right, or proper.

TR

[Praetorian]

Just because you can be sued, in some cases, successfully, for defending yourself, does not mean that it is right, or proper.

TR

No disagreement with that either....

Believe me.... I'm the LAST person to argue that.....

But it is just one of those unfortunate facts of life.

[Praetorian]

So by my tally, you've disrespected Mr. Pontolillo. You have disrespected those who dare to disagree with you. Most ominously, you invite disrespect upon yourself.


I'm sorry.... But where is this coming from?

I disagree with a decision he made on a pragmatic level. That doesn't mean I think he's a bad person or morally inferior.

And I haven't intentionally disrespected any forum member here, unless disagreement equals disrespect, and I don't believe that is the case here.

[Peregrino]

OK Guys, take a deep breath and relax. Emotions are running high on a very difficult subject (anyone who doesn't recognize the difficulty shouldn't be playing anyway!)

[HOLLiS]

Praetorian,

I think if I was in your position to advise people, I would probably say something similar. Most people are ill advised, ill equipped and trained to handle a confrontational situation. I think probably the most sage advised that you have offered is to be aware and understand the possible outcomes. Situational awareness, with skill and confidence could take a possible very dangerous situation and defuse it or greatly reduce the risk to all involved.

I think this forum has a high percentage of people who are more than capable in assessing a situation, capable of acting accordingly and securing or defusing a hostile situation. To put that in the sheep dog terms, this is more a sheep dog forum than for the average citizen.

Part of assessment of a situational is to also to understand what one's own resources are. Often a ill guided citizen does not understand all the possible outcomes, especially the one where they may not walk away from the conflict and maybe the person who is fatally harmed. Even for LEOs it is not advisable to go into a situation alone. One of the benefits of have additional resources, extra officers is that the perp may come to the obvious conclusion that compliance with the officers request is the best path to follow. On a one to one situation, the perp may figure he has a good chance of prevailing, so the fight is on.

I agree confrontation may not be the best option given a specific set of circumstances. The ability to recognize the options, as you alluded too, is key.

As I get older and less able to do things, I would probably assess a situation differently than I would now.

Thank you for your advice,

a old sheep dog

[PSM]

Praetorian,

A large part of your concern for this young man is the financial hit he's about to take from a member of your own profession. Do you support "Loser Pays" legislation? Would you represent him pro bono or refer him to someone who would?

Rather than aiding and abetting our increased loss of personal rights, how about those of you in the legal profession stepping up and helping the good guys for a change.

Pat

[ZonieDiver]

I always "investigate" noises in the night. Hey, I was married for 24 years - that was my job (or so she said). :) I always armed myself, for you never know what said noise is - stray cat, coyote, drunk kid, a couple making love, or - a "bad guy"! I feel it is my obligation to investigate - and would not want to deal with a situation where I did not investigate and said "noise" moved on to a neighbor's house and did harm to them.

Perhaps that is what this "poor schmuck" did - maybe anticipating a "bad guy" as being more likely than not due to his recent misfortune. Woe be unto us as a society if most people are willing to hide in their houses and be content to let the police come and "tag their toe" after the fact - instead of investigating... and defending.

[Praetorian]

Praetorian,

A large part of your concern for this young man is the financial hit he's about to take from a member of your own profession. Do you support "Loser Pays" legislation? Would you represent him pro bono or refer him to someone who would?

Rather than aiding and abetting our increased loss of personal rights, how about those of you in the legal profession stepping up and helping the good guys for a change.

Pat

This may come as a surprise given that my wife and I are both attorneys, but I am a BIG, HUGE supporter of tort reform across the board.

With regard to loser pays specifically, I've always been a bit more hesitant to support it 100% because I can see the flip side to that particular notion. Loser pays as it gets proposed now and then basically makes it IMPOSSIBLE for the average Joe to sue large corporations, regardless of how 'good' the case looks. There are always two sides to every argument, and you never know how a jury will handle a particular set of facts, argued by a particular set of lawyers, especially as the pay scale and experience of those lawyers go up as they do in the world of corporate council.... Any attorney who brings a case to a jury does so thinking he has a STRONG CASE.... But how one could bring ANY case against a big corporate entity, on the behalf of the average person, KNOWING that they stand to lose WHAT LITTLE THEY HAVE LEFT, has to think twice about the prospect. You as the litigant sue GE, and get that account statement of their legal bills for the first quarter of a multi-year litigation, and see its enough to send every member of your family to Harvard.... For the rest of their lives.... And ponder the prospect that you might be on the hook for that bill if one juror sees it differently- You have to seriously think twice about continuing your suit. Regardless of how badly they've injured you.

So yes... I support things like CAPS on punitives, etc, but in terms of Loser pays, I fear the law of unintended consequences. There might be some compromise "loser pays" system that people smarter than I can come up, with but as it stands, its problematic.

As far as me representing him pro bono, Im afraid he'd get what he paid for.... I do perform a great deal of pro bono work, however, I am not licensed in the state of Maryland, and I'm not "that" kind of lawyer. If I see the inside of a Court room... I'm in handcuffs. :D

[Richard]

...I'm not "that" kind of lawyer...

So...as I understand it...what you're saying is that - much like a cardiologist maybe offering some general advice on an enlarged prostate - a bit of legal advice from "that" kind of lawyer - licensed to practice law in MD - would be much more helpful in trying to assess and understand this particular situation.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

[Praetorian]

So...as I understand it...what you're saying is that - much like a cardiologist maybe offering some general advice on an enlarged prostate - a bit of legal advice from "that" kind of lawyer - licensed to practice law in MD - would be much more helpful in trying to assess and understand this particular situation.



Correct.

[Guy]

OK Guys, take a deep breath and relax. Emotions are running high on a very difficult subject (anyone who doesn't recognize the difficulty shouldn't be playing anyway!)One scumbag down and out for good!:lifter

I wonder if, I could've saved him with a tourniquet....:eek:

Stay safe.

[LongWire]

One scumbag down and out for good!:lifter

I wonder if, I could've saved him with a tourniquet....:eek:

Stay safe.

I'd bet you, that you probably cared more for your goat!!!!!! :D:D

[Guy]

I'd bet you, that you probably cared more for your goat!!!!!! :D:DAt least he didn't pursue a life of crime and get killed in the act.:cool:

Anyone know what kind of sword the law abiding gentlemen used? :munchin

Stay safe.

[Utah Bob]

Judge Chamberlain Haller: Mr. Gambini?
Vinny Gambini: Yes, sir?
Judge Chamberlain Haller: That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.
Vinny Gambini: Thank you, sir.
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Overruled.

:D