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GrumbleandGrunt
09-07-2009, 17:11
Does anyone bring their privately owned weapons to 1/10?

In anyone's experience, does the work in transport and storage in the unit's arms room far outweigh the benefit?

I have a couple of semi auto pistols, a couple of semi auto rifles, some shotguns (auto and pump), and a few bolt rifles. I'm not sure where I would get any range or hunting time with these weapons but I'd love to have the option.

RichL025
09-07-2009, 18:37
The following info is 10 years old (when I left 1-10)

No problem with your POWs - I lived in base housing (BEQ) and just kept them in my quarters.

The range at Panzer was open on the weekends (through the Rod & Gun club) for fun shooting. There was an old retired 1SG who kind of ran it (Mike something or other) who was fairly active in the local shooting sports scene and would be able to advise you on hunting and such.

The only pain in the ass is the import / export paperwork - just plan ahead and do the paperwork in plenty of time.

Dragbag036
09-08-2009, 09:30
The laws have change a bit. My experience is from when I left 3 years ago. WEAPONS Military/Civilian personnel coming to Germany for duty cannot bring their privately owned Firearms (POFs) to Germany without prior authorization. The link below may be helpful

www.hqusareur.army.mil/rmv/

Ret10Echo
09-08-2009, 09:56
I seem to recall the transition from have POWs in housing to "storage" at a/the Rod and Gun or in the Arms Room.....

GrumbleandGrunt
09-09-2009, 00:53
The laws have change a bit. My experience is from when I left 3 years ago. WEAPONS Military/Civilian personnel coming to Germany for duty cannot bring their privately owned Firearms (POFs) to Germany without prior authorization. The link below may be helpful

www.hqusareur.army.mil/rmv/

Perfect, thanks for the link.

It says we need a WBK and can only get one when we get there. I'll find out what that entails and post it in this topic when I get the chance.

Stras
09-10-2009, 00:18
You are told in your PCS orders that weapons cannot be brought over.

There are ways around this. The legal way is to have your rifle sent over to the Rod and Gun Club via certified mail or by a gun store.

WBK is a tedious process. If you are a hunter, then take the JAGDSCHEIN (German Hunting License) class as soon as you get here. This is about a 3 month class which will allow you to hunt in germany. Well worth it, you'll learn a lot about the animals, hunting customs and way more in depth than any hunter safety course or other hunting class you have ever taken in the states.

You will need to belong to a Sports Shooter Club in order to hold a WBK. Depending on the flavor of the month, the Rod and Gun Club is either recognized as one or it's not. I was a member of a German Club and was able to bypass all the crap. Start keeping a log of all your range time and what you are doing!!!! Your army range time will count as well.

If you have a WBK or a JAGDSCHEIN, then you can store weapons at your house as long as they are secured IAW German regulations. That is locked in a secure location, with the ammunition locked in a separate location. You can get a decent safe here at OBI (think Home Depot). The guys at the Rod and Gun can help you out with the paperwork shuffle, and get you started in the right direction. There is a German Schutzenhaus on the back road (Frog Road) between Panzer and Patch, which is open to the public.

The germans are in the process of changing some of the regulations for Sports Shooters. One of which is transport of ammunition. If you transport it to a shooting club, you can't transport it home. They are going for the Hazmat realm. So, only transport what you want to shoot in a single iteration. Another possibility is having your ammo stored in a separate location.

Do NOT bring military type firearms to Germany. For instance, MAUSER K98 rifles cannot be imported to the states due to their being classified as a military service rifle. Never mind the fact that it's a WWII era rifle. The US changed their rules in 1997 so a bunch of the guys had to leave their stuff behind. When you return to the states, you will be importing your weapons to the US.

I'll get the contact info for the guys at the Rod and Gun Club today and post it for you.

v/r
Stras

GrumbleandGrunt
09-10-2009, 16:51
Do NOT bring military type firearms to Germany. For instance, MAUSER K98 rifles cannot be imported to the states due to their being classified as a military service rifle.
v/r
Stras

To clarify this would preclude bringing a Springfield XD Sub Compact, a Para-Ord SF-45A, a Sig P220, an AR-15, or a WWII era Mosin-Nagant?

Would a semi-auto Belgian 16 gauge be a go?

I guess I would only bring my sport rifles.

Stras
09-11-2009, 00:43
If it's a pump action shotgun, leave it at home. They are illegal for hunting in germany.

The Germans have not changed the laws since I left in 2005, so you are still okay for storing weapons and ammunition in your residence on/off post provided you meet the requirements.

WBK has to have your weapons info entered on it, prior to you bringing the weapon over. If your weapons do not already have European Proof Marks on them, leave them at home. This is a big pain in the ass, and there is no warranty if they blow your guns up. We had a guy in my JAGDSCHEIN class that brought over a S&W pistol, took it in for the Pruefschein, which damaged the gun so it was unserviceable. He contacted S&W for warranty, and was told to read the fine print in his contract which states S&W does not warranty European Proof Marks.

The next JAGDSCHEIN class is in March 10, cost is about $200. Take this if you want to hunt in Germany, or have weapons. This is the easiest route for you to have guns here. With that said, the course is a ball buster, it is NOT a free ride. The test is three events, written test, an oral board, and weapons demonstration skill test. The weapons test is usually three events, the running boar (100m) (you have 10 rds to hit the boar in the kill zone), the 100m standing supported position (10rds to hit the deer in the kill zone), and the trap event (how good is your skeet shooting?). The trap event is usually the hardest for the Americans.

The Stuttgart Rod and Gun Club (now falling under the Stuttgart Outdoor Recreation moniker (drawdown sucks....)) contact information is phone (dialing from the states) 0049 7031-15-2774, dsn 314-4312-774. They have a small selection of firearms here, but will order anything you want. And there are other Rod and Gun Clubs

The Rod and Gun Club is still not certified as a Sport Shooter Club, so you would have to join a German Sport Shooter Club if that's the route you want to go. With your future deployment schedule, you will find it extremely difficult to meet the requirements to maintain the WBK. Your best bet is the JAGDSCHEIN. It took me six months to get my WBK, and was just total buffoonary on the part of USAREUR and the local gov't. One would think that they didn't want people to have guns.

Best of luck to you in your 1-10 endeavors. I highly recommend that you pay attention to what ISAF is doing in their in country mission sets.

If you have any 1-10 questions, shoot me a PM. I'm just down the street from you at Bragg.

MVP
10-20-2009, 18:39
As everyone has said, do not take weapons over before you have a WBK and you are in possession of an import permit (einfuerhungszeugnis). You won't get the import permit until you have the WBK.

As a long-term holder of a WBK I recommend the following actions as the easiest and best way to get one.

1. Take the hunting course
2. Get your hunting insurance
3. Take the insurance and course diploma to the German hunting office at the LandRatsAmt in Boeblingen (unless you live outside their area) to get your license.
4. Take your license and go down to Frankonia Jagd in Stuttgart and buy a long gun of some sort, the license is all you need. This forces the issuance of a WBK because you are in legal possession of a weapon.
5. Fill out the registration forms you can get from USAREUR and send them in.
6. In may take a while but eventually you will get a bill in the mail and after paying it receive the WBK.
7. Once you have the WBK the hunters in the Bn can help you get the pre-approval in your WBK for two pistols. This is required to buy pistols. You can get more than two but then you must be a registered member of a shooting club. Join a German club such as the Weil Der Stadt JagdSchuetzen or the one in Schoenaich, they have a good affiliation with the Big German organization such as the BDMP and BDS that you will need for getting sport (competition) guns on your WBK. By the way, hunters can have all the long guns they want, just beware the storage requirements have gotten pretty cost prohibitive. If you are still in the US check out the safes from Zanotti Armor, they are easy to move and should meet all the requirements but I cannot guarantee that.
8. I would recommend you join the KreisJaegerVerein for Sindelfingen. As a member you get a magazine monthly and you do not have to pay to shoot at the Sindelfingen range.

MVP

GrumbleandGrunt
11-29-2009, 19:58
MVP-

Can you only buy bolt long guns in Germany?

Someone mentioned pump shotguns are a no-go for hunting, what about semi-auto like an older browning A5?

mike-munich
12-04-2009, 03:15
The Jagdschein is called the "green college degree" (grünes Abitur) over here. Prepare for some serious studying. It's like being a gunsmith, game warden and veterinarian in one person. :cool: I'm preparing for the 2010 class for the Jagdschein right now...

If you need help in ref to the WBK or other German documents and regulations, let me know. I'm a badge over here and might be able to help you out.

Gunlaw is about to change here, I'm getting all the new info through the Dept.
Stras gave a very good lead with OBI (Home Depot), they sometimes have the gunsafes on sale. They run around EUR 300.00 and you get a Level A safe with a Level B inner compartment. A is for rifles, B is needed for all pistols/revolvers.

I'm 2.5 hours south of BB, but go up there on a regular basis. Let me know if I can be of any help. I'm a member of 4 gunclubs, as well as the Landesverband and the German IPSC. I can also take you on German military or Police ranges for long distance shooting (most clubs have a 100 Meter maximum range). A couple of friends are hunters, maybe they can take you out hunting if you want. One of these guys is using his US Military Persuador shotgun for wild boar, I don't think that's illegal here (Frankonia had the Mossberg 590 on sale...).

This is what a German WBK looks like (there is also a yellow one, for rifles over 60cm length and not semi automatic).

MVP
12-04-2009, 09:45
G&G,

Once you have your JagdSchein you can purchase nearly any gun there that you can buy in CONUS and a few more. For instance, hunters are allowed to have AR's with barrels as short as 7", yes this is not a typo, seven inches. The real limitation is the requirement for a safe(s). You cannot simply fill-it up and be in compliance. There are limits in how many and what can go in each category (level) of safe. I recommend you determine what you plan to acquire while you are there and then buy an appropriate safe from the outset. A friend in my club (Wiel der Stadt jagdschuetzen) near the Malmsheim DZ periodically finds old postal safes (very large, circa 1500-2000lbs) that are free for the taking. Need your team and a Six-T truck to move but shouldn't cost more than $100 for the truck and a case of bier.

Pump guns are not socially acceptable for formal hunts or where you are going with people you don't know well. Once you have established yourself with some guys you can take one, just don't drag one out in front of strangers or the real traditional guys.

Speaking of tradition, you can offend some German hunters if you try to look too much like them. Comply with the traditions but don't jump into lederhosen! The old solid green jungle uniform pants (try US Cav or Brig Qtr Masters) are great long wearing hunting pants. They dry quickly and are 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of German hunting pants. An old solid green field jacket with a liner is also pretty good most of the year but in the winter you will be looking for something thicker and longer. It gets damn cold in the forest waiting for the pigs in Dec and Jan.

Back to guns, most of the rifle hunting will be done from a stand. This means your scope will need to be mounted further to the rear to obtain optimal eye-relief. When you mount the scope consider the addition and reduction of clothing with the changing seasons. I recommend you mount the scope so you must crane your head forward a bit when wearing the heaviest clothing you might have on when hunting. Hopefully this will not put your eye "danger-close" when you have on only a light shirt in the summer. You will have to consider this or remount your scope according to the season. A easy solution is to use a Picatinney type mount and rings (if available for the gun you choose) and then just reposition and re-zero as needed. When I was in Stuttgart I shot EVERY Wednesday evening so making changes was not a problem. The Sindelfingen range is less than 3 miles driving distance from Panzer Kaserne and 1/10. If you are not making German hunting friends you have no one but yourself to blame.

Last: I noticed I had erroneously typed Jagdschein in points 6 and 7 of my earlier post. Should have typed WBK, It is now corrected.

MVP

Stras
12-04-2009, 11:22
MVP-

Can you only buy bolt long guns in Germany?

Someone mentioned pump shotguns are a no-go for hunting, what about semi-auto like an older browning A5?


G&G,

Pump shotguns are part of the push to "ban" with the re-write of the German Hunting Laws. A side by side or over/under is preferred. should you be invited on a hunt with Germans, remember that the First Impression is a lasting impression.

As MVP stated, the Germans for the most part are traditionalists when it comes to hunting. Camoflage is considered "not cool" and severely frowned on. this applies to both your weapon and your clothing.

If you want to buy a rifle overseas, I recommend that at the very least, you bring your scopes from the states to mount on your new rifle. This is the option I'm looking at if I'm fortunate to be able to return for another tour in 1-10.

The Sindelfingen Schutzenhaus is awesome and serves a great schnitzel as well in addition to being so close to Panzer. The range is extremely friendly to the US as well. It took alot of work by people like Kurt H. and MVP to build rapport with them.

Franconia in downtown Stuttgart is the five star hotel of gun stores. be prepared for five star hotel prices.

MVP
12-04-2009, 13:01
G&G,

With the new laws a lot of Germans are dumping their guns really cheap or giving them away so they do not have to buy a safe. My friends there now tell me the bulletin board at the Sindelfingen range is full of good deals. Just remember you cannot bring all of those good deals back to CONUS. Some examples are the Walther PPK (too small) or any version of a Mauser that started life out as a military gun. I would consider staying clear of any rifle that used a Mauser 98 action just to preclude problems. In 2002 I had BATF turn down my import permit for two 98s that were clearly commercial production by the serial numbers. Despite my best efforts and submission of information from a book on Mauser sporting rifles they would not relent.

There is also another avenue to good deals; the KriegsWaffenBeseidigungsDeinst. May have misspelled the name but it is sort of an EOD organization that also acquires guns from different places that they either sell or destroy. They are located near the range but you cannot get to them directly. There is however a German hunter/shooter who is at the range weekly who can. You sort of place orders for him on what you would like and he makes enquiries and informs you when interesting stuff comes along. Best contact to him is thru the club I mentioned previously.

I once bought a pre-war Mauser African Model with the longer stock (not a Mannlicher style) from a younger hunter on the range. It is a double-square bridge with factory claw mounts and a Hensoldt 4X. Paid about $400 for a $2500-3000 rifle. He wanted a more modern gun, a lot of Germans are like that, they want the newest tech stuff. Really nice BHPs are cheap, most Germans want the new plastic pistols. The moral is: keep your eyes open on the range and if you see something interesting that is old don't hesitate to ask if they might sell it. SIG 210's are in abundance and very nice for 1930 pistol technology. Euro exchange makes them pricey just yet but still very nice guns.

Couple of other points:

1. Learn some German, it will serve you well and help get you invited to hunt.
2. Make all possible efforts to hunt with Germans so you can experience the traditions you will miss hunting game on US. Installations.
3. Buy and read the German gun/hunting magazines. That is how I began learning the langauge and was at a 3/3 when I last tested. I was not sent to formal training until I was at a 2+/2 and I got there by reading, chasing women and drinking lots of bier. Unfortunately most single German girls speak good english these days so learning German via the "long-haired dictionary" is not so viable now. They may tolerate you struggling along for a while but pretty quickly they will give up and speak only english unless you find one who grew up in the East. My frau speaks 4 languages and when I met her I thought she was an American because her english was so good. If you are single or perhaps especially if you are single, cultivate German friends and contacts.
4. Don't go bar hopping with other soldiers, expand your horizons and perspectives. Keeps you out of the "ugly American" incidents and reduces your signature (Individual Protective Measure). Drunk soldiers are often loud and obnoxious.
5. Stay away from the Irish Pubs, they are typically American hangouts ergo: great target environment for Foreign Intelligence Services and terrorists. I have known many soldiers who's first action when going to a new place is to find the Irish Pub, just not a good idea overseas.
6. As Stras said, DO NOT WEAR CAMOUFLAGE HUNTING OR TO THE RANGE!!! The club at Sindelfingen has gone so far as to post a sign saying this at the entrance to the 100m range. I remembering seening US military personnel taking the hunting course showing up there in uniform and believe this is what caused the sign to be posted. Try to blend in as much as possible, they will identify you as an American as soon as you open your mouth but don't announce yourself from a distance.

In a nutshell: enjoy what there is to enjoy and experience while being a quiet professional...

MVP

mike-munich
12-07-2009, 05:35
Very good points MVP. I can tell you have been around over here, well spoken. If you or Stras are coming back to 1/10, the first round(s) of Beer is/are on me. You have a safehouse in the Munich area.