View Full Version : Veterans start over as colleges ignore experience
Ret10Echo
08-21-2009, 06:02
This topic has been discussed across multiple threads concerning application of military experience and acceptance by institutions of "higher learning".
My personal rub was when the school I attended would not give me credit for a 6-month functional language course. Part of this came from AARTS not listing the language training for that time-frame and secondly the school I attended would not accept the letter from SWCS. So a philosophy and an ethics class had to fill that gap....What fun :D
Veterans start over as colleges ignore experience
August 20, 2009 - 5:17pm
By ALAN SCHER ZAGIER
Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, Mo. (AP) - Twelve years of military service left Donald Spradling highly trained in satellite imagery, nuclear engineering and foreign intelligence analysis. None of that made a difference to the University of Missouri.
When the fall semester begins next week, the 33-year-old father of five will be taking largely introductory courses with the rest of the school's freshmen.
"I'm going to be studying things I already learned all over again," the Navy veteran said.
Nearly half a million veterans are expected on college campuses this year as part of the new GI Bill. The surge is leading to a call for schools to re-examine their policies of declining to grant college credit for military training and service.
An estimated one in five colleges and universities do not give academic credit for military education, according to a recent survey of 723 schools by the American Council on Education that is believed to be the first systematic measure. Even more of the schools, 36 percent, said they don't award credit for military occupational training.
For Spradling and others, that can mean spending more on tuition, stretching financial aid or GI Bill scholarships and delaying their entry into the work force.
"In most cases, it's simply an academic decision that they're not going to award any credit for learning acquired outside a traditional classroom," said James Selbe, a former Marine and the council's assistant vice president for lifelong learning.
Missouri Chancellor Brady Deaton said the school considers most military preparation "experiential learning." He noted that individual academic departments can choose to award credit on their own.
"It may be very practical skills acquisition, but that may not be what university education sets out to do," he said. "We're looking to build on a framework, a foundation of knowledge."
At Boston College, a private school, the standard has always been to accept credit only for institutions of higher education, said school spokesman Jack Dunn.
"That holds true for members of the armed forces as well," he said.
Many college-bound veterans said military recruiters often offer an unrealistic portrayal of what awaits in academia, suggesting their military coursework and training will count for college credit.
Some advocates also fault a campus climate where military training is poorly understood. They say many schools underestimate the quality of their education, and unlike community college credit or Advanced Placement classes, it's not easy to measure.
"Because of their lack of knowledge of the military, they don't equate it as the same as being in the classroom," said Kathy Snead, president of Servicemembers Opportunities Colleges. The Washington-based group is a consortium of more than 1,800 schools whose members are required to recognize military coursework and training. Among the participants: the California State University system, George Washington, the State University of New York schools and Ohio State.
Snead described one student at a Midwest research university who had worked as a Naval nuclear engineer but didn't receive credit for his experience.
"He had much more current knowledge than most of his professors," she said. "He ended up helping teach the class."
Derek Blumke, a six-year Air Force veteran, helped found Student Veterans of America, a group that plans to push for a greater acceptance of military credit. At the University of Michigan, which he attends, some military coursework _ such as foreign language study _ is accepted for credit. Other work is not.
"There needs to be a standard format set up," said Blumke. "There are tens of thousands of vets coming home who aren't receiving the credit they deserve because the proper protocol isn't in place."
"It's insulting," he added. "They were teaching leadership in a way most colleges will never be able to."
Army veteran Michael McIntosh noted that Missouri's policy meant he could not use his experience jumping from planes as part of an airborne unit to fulfill a physical education requirement _ even as other students could enroll in scuba diving or similar pursuits.
"I would have liked for them to at least acknowledge it," he said. "It might have been a military education, but it was still a lot of work and a lot of training."
He now attends Columbia (Mo.) College, a liberal arts school with 18 satellite campuses on military bases _ including Guantanamo Bay. The school accepts military training for credit, and some occupational training.
And some colleges are even promoting their credits for military work as a way to recruit veterans.
At Western Carolina University in Cullowhee, N.C., that led to more than 300 veterans enrolled in the fall semester, said Pat Brown, the school's educational outreach dean. That's more than six times the number enrolled just a few years ago.
The school has established two degree programs geared specifically for service members: an emergency medical care degree for Special Forces medics and an emergency and disaster management degree for civil affairs personnel. Both accept military training and transfer military training for credit for other degrees.
"People need to recognize that the quality of education going on in the military is at a very high level," Brown said.
You comparatively shop for schools and look for one that will recognize the value of your service experiences and training. According to the article, 4 in 5 will grant credit for such experience - look for one of them.
And as far as recognition of a language skill - the colleges I went to (Columbus State and Indiana University) allowed me to go and be evaluated in a one-on-one conversation in the language with a professor from that language's department - both times that I did this I was awarded the credit by the college upon recommendation from the professors. :)
Remember - there are work-arounds - be creative. ;)
FWIW - many colleges also do not accept AP credit in lieu of a course taken at the college or even a number of credits transferred from other colleges - it's their call, not the student's.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I tend to read and not post, however, a very interesting article. The notion that colleges themselves (admissions/administration) will not accept the training and schooling as credit is only half of the issue. The ignoring of experiences, in my time as a student, also occurs in the classroom, as professors discourage veterans from sharing their experiences, particularly in government and military history courses. Not being a veteran myself, I was often intrigued to possibly hear what they had to contribute, however, I suppose that is what happens when you attend a liberal school just outside of DC.
Perhaps there is an underlying assumption that colleges make rational decisions. I'm not sure that's a good assumption.
In my own case (me, personally), back in 1994, I took a computer science course in preparation for admission to the MSc program. It was a course that the department had specified, so that was fine. Made an A, all was well.
The course lineup was altered, and a different course that covered the same material was offered. And I was compelled to take it. So I smiled (a rather annoying smirk, actually), rolled my eyes Heavenward, and took it. It was an easy A - a fact I took pains to remind others of. (Evil grin).
So...same college...same department...same academic year...and I didn't get to apply the course they specified to the entry program.
Do colleges try various things to increase revenue? My gracious no! They would never do that!*
*Text in the color pink denotes sarcasm.
Are civilians, proficient with this skill or that skill and hours of real world experience using those skills, allowed to forgo or to fast track their training in the armed services?
If an instructor doesn't let students share their experiences during a class, what is stopping anyone from arranging a discussion or organizing a study group?
(How does one know for certain that any classmate has done or seen the things that she or he says?)
SkiBumCFO
08-21-2009, 12:25
nmap has it right! i went to a few different Universities for bachelors and masters and I always felt like I was still in the Army. It didnt matter if it was a public or private school it was still a big bureaucracy and fighting it got you nowhere. They took some of my credits from UofM Asian division but didnt really give me anything worthwhile for all my military courses. I just smilled and took the course and moved on. The only thing I learned was that the higher your GPA the more pull you had with the administration when complaining and the more scholarship money you received. good reasons to get As.
............(How does one know for certain that any classmate has done or seen the things that she or he says?)
DD Form 2586
This form lists the jobs you've held and the Credit Recommendation from American Council on Education
Under 18C mine reads
"In the lower-division baccalaureate/associate degree category, 6 semester hours in construction technology and 3 in technical report writing. In the upper-division baccalaureate category, 3 semester hours in construction project management, 3 for a practicum in instructional techniques, 6 for field experience in construction, and 3 for field experience in management (5/87)."
Under the Sergeants Major Course it says:
"In the lower-division baccalaureate / associate degree category, 2 semester hours in principles of supervision, 3 in group dynamics, and 3 in communication; in the upper-division baccalaureate category, 4 semester hours in military science, 4 in international relations, 1 in human resorce management and 1 in ethics."
Each MOS and job position gets listed on the DD 2586 with the recommendations. Mine is 17 pages long.
The trick is finding a school that will at least read the form and give some credit in the field you are going for.
Get into the 12B4 (Old combat engineer) and you rack up big points in equipment operation, demolition, hand tools, maps, blue prints, supervision, management, etc.
I think I have one on schools and will look for it. Found it:
h. SF Underwater Operations (course exhibit no. AR-0803-0001): in the vocational certificate category, 3 semester hours in swimming and physical education: in the lower-division baccalaureate degree category, 3 semester hours in swimming and physical education; in the upper-division baccalaureate category, 2 semester hours in physical education.
While my stuff is dated they should have something similar down at the Ed Center.
The trick is finding a school that will at least read the form and give some credit in the field you are going for.
QP Pete--
Thank you for the information!:lifter I'll be bringing the points made in this thread to the attention of an academic or two in the very near future.
A question. Would the G. I. Bill serve the interests of the country better if it had provisions that encouraged academic institutions to review veterans' training and experiences for the purpose of giving credit when appropriate?
FWIW, please note that the issue of credits touches civilians as well. A classmate of mine had a law degree but the University of Texas was unflinching in its insistence that he fulfill all the coursework requirements for his master's degree. More recently, a pal of mine who has changed schools has had some of her previous coursework invalidated.
At the end of the day, the school is a business. Should a college refuse to recognize previous credits, especially from those whose tuition is partly or fully funded by the GI Bill or Vocational Rehabilitation, the student might look to writing a polite letter explaining their disappointment in the school's greed for profit over legitimate educational experience, that the student will be looking elsewhere to continue their education and they will be sure to inform all their military-affiliated acquaintences (to include the local VA office that puts schools on the authorization list) that the school is decidedly military unfriendly. Unlike Cash for Clunkers, the GI Bill and Voc Rehab represent a steady and dependable source of income for many schools (moreso now, with the increasing number of vets going back to school); they get a little uncomfortable if that revenue stream is threatened.
Ret10Echo
08-22-2009, 17:22
Having the AARTS transcript forwarded to the school provides the institution with all the schools attended and what the "suggested" equivalent coursework is (or could be). http://aarts.army.mil/
As Richard stated, it is up to the school to decide . Where QPs may find themselves in a jam (or other veterans) are courses that will not be included in an AARTS translation because they are not accredited by ACE. In fact the website contains the following disclaimer:
PLEASE NOTE: The ACE credit recommendations can be accepted, modified, or rejected by a college or university. Whether an academic institution accepts the credit recommendations depends on its policies and procedures for transfer credit, your program of study, and your degree requirements.
In the world of higher-education is the one place that you will find someone ask you the question....
"Sure, you have all this experience, but have you ever taken a class in the subject?"
In the end I finished my degree. It cost me a few extra bucks which probably would not have stung quite as much if that extra money didn't have to go toward a "Humanities" or "Liberal Studies" elective.
And if your Jumpmaster Course Certificate is not from either Ft Benning or Ft Bragg, but rather a Battalion level course, AARTS will not accept it. I'm still fighting this one, along with some Air Force Courses that I'm trying to get credit form..
If you have taken a DLPT, send off the paperwork to DLI so they will send your scores to your college. I'm in the midst of this currently.
CLEP as much as you can.. it's a free test. worst case is you have to take the class, and use the tuition assistance from the GI Bill. Hell, I claim my books on my tax return every year.
Shop around for colleges which have campuses or online programs which will enable you to continue your schooling with them as you PCS in your army career.
On Go Army ED, there are degree plans by MOS listed with a large listing of schools which take some levels of military skills/courses. https://www.goarmyed.com/Login.aspx
If you have questions, try to have patience with the people at the Ed Center on base. Most colleges with on post offices will provide a list of the military courses that they will accept for different career fields.
It is better to have a broad base degree, than a pin point one. This will have a higher acceptance rate for your military schools.
In the world of higher-education is the one place that you will find someone ask you the question....
"Sure, you have all this experience, but have you ever taken a class in the subject?"
"Why yes I have... and here's a pic of me teaching this class in German to the Fallschirmjaegers." Totally blew away one of my professors that one could actually give a class in a foreign language.
And here's where we taught field sanitation to the Greeks in 1995. Remember that trip RET10Echo? great spot on the beach for the camp.... never mind the creek that runs past the latrine, then by the cooking area, and then dumps into the ocean. Yeah, I ate in town a lot on that trip.
"Why yes I have... and here's a pic of me teaching this class in German to the Fallschirmjaegers." Totally blew away one of my professors that one could actually give a class in a foreign language.
And here's where we taught field sanitation to the Greeks in 1995. Remember that trip RET10Echo? great spot on the beach for the camp.... never mind the creek that runs past the latrine, then by the cooking area, and then dumps into the ocean. Yeah, I ate in town a lot on that trip.
Where are te photos?????
When I attended ANCOES at Fort Gordon in 1978, (as a 31V4) – we were approached on the first day of class from a representative of Georgia Military College – who told us that if we signed up for a class in Government, they would give us credit for the ANOC class as well as all the other military schools and MOSs we had, to include any CLEP tests, as well as any additional College Credit we may have had form other colleges. They said that it was possible that we might qualify to receive an Associate’s Degree.
Every one of us signed up. We took the class during our lunch break, right there in our Class Room. I got an “A.” They examined my 201 file and added everything up (I had already taken the full complement of General CLEP - passed those too. I also got a big chunck of hours for my German Language School taken at DLI. A few months later, I received my Associates Degree Diploma; I took it down to Personnel and had it filed. From that day forward, I had an AA on my record.
The big question I had to ask myself after all that - what had I learned, how much smarter had I become? Well, I learned a little bit about Government. Other than that, I was the same guy and hadn’t learned a thing.
Later on, when I became a Warrant Officer, it was possible to take a full year off for Boot Strap and attend any two year institution that would have us, at the Government’s expense – in order to get that AA. I actually tried to do that too – but of course I was denied because I had already posted the Associates degree – no way Icould I tell them that I hadn’t really learned anything.
That continued to nag at me for the rest of my time in the Army.
When I retired in 1987 – I decided to go back to school and get a Bachelors Degree. The closest State School to me was the University of North Texas (UNT) in Denton, Texas. I attempted to parley as much of my military experience as I could – but they were surprisingly indifferent to most of the things I had done in the Military. The folks at UNT actually laughed at me when I tried to say that the AA had to be worth 60 credit hours. They said: “You took one course there – we will give you 3 hours for it.” They ultimately gave my 15 hours for DLI, 9 hours for three non General CLEP tests I took, and perhaps another 9 hours for actual college courses I had taken at one point or another.
Eventually, I signed up with UNT. I found myself taking remedial math (becausemy math skills were so week, I had not studied any since High School). The remedial math was a non credit class – just a refresher to get me up to speed so I could take College Algebra. I took freshman English, History, Math, Literature, more Math, more English, More History and even another Government class. Each one of these classes were taken with my butt in a chair in a class room sitting next to kids at least 20 years younger.
I spent the next two years, going to school – Ultimately, I took 93 hours in two years. I graduated with a BS in December 89. Had they given me more credit for my life experience, I certainly would have taken it. But there is a second dilemma here that you need to understand. When you go for a specific degree, you follow a degree plan pre-set by the school – if your “life experience” credits don’t match up with that plan – then those credits can only be used as an elective. That was the case with me – the plan I took (Engineering Technology) did not need any German Language – so all that went for Electives – which just about used up all my electives for the four year degree.
So what’s the point – I think I already proved that if I could have taken a quicker way, I would have (the AA degree). But when I finished my Bachelors, I actually experienced my continued education over time – one course would build on a previous one. I got to know Professors, they got to know me– I knew I had done all the work and I had learned something in each class I took. I learned enough to go out and get a job in my field of study and have remained employed in that field for the past 20 years.
Didn’t want to blow my own horn this way – but just letting you know that you have choices and you are the consumer when it comes to how you want to spend both your time and your money for your education – you can go to GMC and get a piece of paper, and little else. Or you can go to your nearest State or Private University, sit in a class room, and start adding new stuff to your brain, along with those invaluable “Life Experiences.”
Some schools do not recognize some or all credits from another school.
A school also has a reputation for the quality of their graduates, some schools take it real seriously. How can they endorse someone who has not completed all of their core work there? The are additional aspects of a degree the Associates or bachelor degrees are sort of stamps of approval and not really a endorsement on academics. Masters and and Doctorates is a endorsement on academic abilities.
If a person looks around not all degrees are the same, some schools degrees open doors in the business, academic and other worlds, other schools degrees are more or less nothing more than wall paper. Reason again is accreditation.
The lower division degree has some many hours of liberal art core curriculum, sort of general studies so the graduate is somewhat well verse. Other words part of the classes are hoop hooping ability of the student.
I don't think SF allows a student to short cut training, Q or selection because of previous experience in another military service/civilian life/or??. (Not sure on this, so please be nice if I am wrong, it was for a example on accreditation.)
Some requirements for employment where is a degree is needed may only be there because of in some ways a degree to some people is a pedigreed paper. Some requirements for employment will allow for life experience instead of a degree as threshold requirements to apply for the job.
Slantwire
08-23-2009, 15:07
I don't think SF allows a student to short cut training, Q or selection because of previous experience in another military service/civilian life/or??. (Not sure on this, so please be nice if I am wrong, it was for a example on accreditation.)
Well, people can and do skip the language phase if they can produce a sufficient DLPT score in a targeted language.
On less certain ground: I had a captain in my SUT class who skipped SERE. But he was a Kiowa pilot (and therefore had already been to the Army Level-C version), so he wasn't exactly taking a shortcut. I don't know if Navy or AF SERE would have been accepted.
I remember some debate about whether a former sailor could get credit for CDQC. I never heard the final verdict, but it was discussed.
On much more certain ground (the other end of the spectrum): I did watch one guy get laughed at when he suggested that his stacked Ranger - Sapper tabs and Pathfinder badge should let him bypass SUT. Similar reaction to the EMT who wanted to skip ahead in the 18D MOS training.
I think in most cases, the best a student can do is take Nmap's course: try not to get bored, take the easy "GO." Perhaps demonstrate some initiative and teaching ability by helping classmates.