View Full Version : Gun owner says police violating his rights
Gun owner says police violating his rights
http://www.fayobserver.com/Articles/2009/08/21/925616
"George Boggs thought he was doing police a favor last week when he handed over the firearm he kept in his car after he was in a wreck.
Boggs has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and he wanted his handgun secured while he went to the hospital, he said. The permit requires him to notify police of his weapon..............."
Interesting story.
Man with a CC permit gets in a wreck, other driver is charged, and he hands over his weapon for safe keeping to an LEO while he goes to the hospital.
Goes to get it back and he can't have it until it's been test fired to check if it had been used in a crime. Appears to take over a week.
I'm pretty sure most of us know firearms picked up during LEO activity are checked but I didn't know that in a case like this it was kept.
Another law used to turn an honest citizen into a lawbreaker? The next person with a CC permit is on a stretcher on his way to the hospital - does he notify the cop and hand it over - knowing thats the last he'll see of it for more than a week - or take his chances at the hospital that it will not disappear?
MOO - but incompetence doesn't necessarily equate to another government agency conspiracy - although in today's world one always has to wonder. ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
..... doesn't necessarily equate to another government agency conspiracy ...........
Not saying it's a conspiracy.
Just saying there are many, many people who follow the local, state and federal laws the best they can.
Most people I would guess knew about the programs in place around the country to test weapons siezed in crimes. I don't think many were aware that if you handed the weapon to an LEO and then asked for it back the answer was "No, not until we have it tested."
So. if due to budget cuts, a testing program becomes backlogged how long would be reasonable for law enforcement to keep a weapon? In this case it appears to be at least a week.
HowardCohodas
08-21-2009, 06:28
You shouldn't get fingerprinted every time you visit a police station.
You shouldn't have your DNA collected every time you visit a doctor or hospital.
You shouldn't have your gun tested when you volunteer it for safe keeping.
We have a Bill of Rights that protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures, even if violating these rights might provide information of criminal detection value.
Another law used to turn an honest citizen into a lawbreaker? The next person with a CC permit is on a stretcher on his way to the hospital - does he notify the cop and hand it over - knowing thats the last he'll see of it for more than a week - or take his chances at the hospital that it will not disappear?
IMHO, yes, let the cop know and take our chances. I advise the officer as soon as I hand him/her my license, and yes, I would turn the weapon over. I would not want to keep it under my hat and end up having the weapon discovered in the impound yard by someone not authorized to carry a firearm! I'm an old fart...never know how long I'd end up in the hospital!
I have a CCW permit from VA and routinely travel by vehicle through states that does not recognize my permit. Regardless, under those circumstances, IAW fed law, I keep the firearm locked and unloaded in an area inaccessible to me as a driver. Do I like that? Well, heck no! But it's the law.
Once I hand over my drivers license (following a stop by a LEO or in the process of an accident investigation) the LEO will know as soon as he/she runs the license that I have a CCW permit. If I'm on the way to a hospital I would rather have the return of my weapon delayed whilst the local cop gets his/her head out of their rump than have the thing "discovered" either during a search or at the wrecking yard. It's a risk, yes. The alternatives present undesirable options.
.... If I'm on the way to a hospital I would rather have the return of my weapon delayed whilst the local cop gets his/her head out of their rump .........
So you drive through a small town in the middle of nowhere, 1,000 miles from home, and you get in an accident and are taken to the hospital to get checked out. As a good follower of the law you hand over your weapon for safe keeping.
Do you think they will mail it to you when they are done checking?
Will you hang out in the local area for a week or more waiting for the tests to be completed?
If no, then after you get home is a 2,000 mile round trip worth the time, effort and money to retrieve a $500 weapon?
The alternatives present undesirable options.
IMHO, sir.
Defender968
08-21-2009, 07:52
I would argue that without more information this is a violation of the CCW's 4th amendment rights. I can see the officer running the gun through NCIC before cataloging it, but that shouldn't take more than a few minutes, and it would be done immediately. Now if it came back stolen that would change the equation completely, but as long as it didn't come back stolen I don't think they have the right to hold it to test fire it. That to me would be an unreasonable search under the known circumstances, considering without a hit from NCIC there would be no reason to believe a crime was committed with the weapon, where's the PC for the search?
Were I this gentleman I would probably go talk to the chief first (if he understands his rights and the 4th amendment) if that didn't work I'd get a lawyer, I'm all for being thorough as an LEO, but we/they have to work within the law and I don't think in this case they are.
The other problem I have with this case is below, if they're going to do this they're better off to say we're testing all guns no exceptions, but they don't which means this is a subjective policy, and I would argue that makes it harder to justify. I don't think this policy will stand up to a lawsuit. Just my .02.
Police defend their decade-old policy of checking most handguns that come into their custody - no matter the reason - to see if they have been used in a crime. They say public safety outweighs any inconvenience to the owner.
I would argue that without more information this is a violation of the CCW's 4th amendment rights. I can see the officer running the gun through NCIC before cataloging it, but that shouldn't take more than a few minutes, and it would be done immediately. Now if it came back stolen that would change the equation completely, but as long as it didn't come back stolen I don't think they have the right to hold it to test fire it. That to me would be an unreasonable search under the known circumstances, considering without a hit from NCIC there would be no reason to believe a crime was committed with the weapon, where's the PC for the search?
Were I this gentleman I would probably go talk to the chief first (if he understands his rights and the 4th amendment) if that didn't work I'd get a lawyer, I'm all for being thorough as an LEO, but we/they have to work within the law and I don't think in this case they are.
The other problem I have with this case is below, if they're going to do this they're better off to say we're testing all guns no exceptions, but they don't which means this is a subjective policy, and I would argue that makes it harder to justify. I don't think this policy will stand up to a lawsuit. Just my .02.
Agree. The man's rights under the BoR were violated. However, so what if there's no PC...maybe just "reasonable suspicion", but that can be interpreted in a gaggle of ways that no lawyer will be able to win (for under $10K). The challenge in the meantime is what to do if the LEO wants to take your weapon and test fire it. The answer is probably not a darned thing besides talk to the chief/supervisor or get a lawyer and sue them after the fact. That LEO (right or wrong; experienced or just a stupid rookie) is the only representative of the U.S. Constitution on the scene.
It's like the PFC on the gate at 0300 who wants to look in your trunk before you can come on the post. Only action you can take at that time is comply. Tell him no and get shot is not an option.
HowardCohodas
08-21-2009, 09:08
Some interesting things to be gleaned from the full article.
Boggs, 70, is a retired Army sergeant first class who is running for City Council this fall against incumbent Robert Massey in District 3. He said his fight over the police policy is not politically motivated.
Boggs complained to police supervisors that his new gun has never been fired. The ballistics test, he said, would diminish the value of the .45-caliber Taurus Millennium he bought last month for $399 at a local gun store.
Boggs said he is talking with officials at the National Rifle Association about his situation. A representative of the NRA could not be reached for comment this week.
.... The answer is probably not a darned thing besides talk to the chief/supervisor or get a lawyer and sue them after the fact. That LEO (right or wrong; experienced or just a stupid rookie) is the only representative of the U.S. Constitution on the scene. ....
The LEO on scene has nothing to do with this. The guy handed him his weapon and went to the hospital. The LEO on scene turned it in.
It's when the individual went to the police station to get it back. That's when he was told he could not have it until it's been tested.
The accident happened last week. This is Friday. It takes a week to get it tested? You take a private citizen's property and then make him wait "on your time to get it done"?
From the article "....Since 1999, the Police Department has sent most handguns taken into custody to the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office, where the ballistics examination is done free for law enforcement agencies......."
For you people that don't live here - Fayetteville ain't that big of a town and the Fayetteville Police Department and County Sheriff's Office are not that far apart.
Sounds like there could be a hidden agenda in Fayetteville politics that's not been told in the media. Sounds like some lawyer(s) are about to be able to pay for another botox injection. Mr Boggs may have an enemy in the police department, and now it's turn around time.
Didn't sound like the guy had any problems with what was done/being done until he couldn't get his pistol back when he wanted it - and then his political desires, maybe some outside advice, a ton of free press and national notoriety, etc, all seems to have over-ridden his initial actions. :confused:
I doubt at this point whether we'll ever know the truth now and this guy will become another politicized pawn of the pro-gun/anti-gun movements. :rolleyes:
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
The LEO on scene has nothing to do with this. The guy handed him his weapon and went to the hospital. The LEO on scene turned it in.
It's when the individual went to the police station to get it back. That's when he was told he could not have it until it's been tested.
The accident happened last week. This is Friday. It takes a week to get it tested? You take a private citizen's property and then make him wait "on your time to get it done"?
From the article "....Since 1999, the Police Department has sent most handguns taken into custody to the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office, where the ballistics examination is done free for law enforcement agencies......."
For you people that don't live here - Fayetteville ain't that big of a town and the Fayetteville Police Department and County Sheriff's Office are not that far apart.
+1
The Cumberland County Sheriff's dept. tried in vain to keep me from brining full auto, suppressed and SBR'd lowers into the county under lawful and completely legal tax stamps from a gun company when I was representing them. I went in and attempted to SBR a personal lower receiver and was told not no, but hell no as said sheriff walked through the area. I explained that it was in my legal right to get a living trust and that would negate the LEO signature on the federal tax stamp and I could legally obtain them in accordance with federal law. That did nothing but anger the staff and expedited my departure from the office.
Getting a CCW was interesting after that. I just use my VA permit, abide by NC laws and call it good. They don't need my money bad enough. :D
Kind of a funny living condition here in the Fayetteville area. So close to greatness in Soldiering, yet those on the domestic defense have issues with their professional counterparts (limited to those at the top).
Gun owner says police violating his rights
The next person with a CC permit is on a stretcher on his way to the hospital - does he notify the cop and hand it over - knowing thats the last he'll see of it for more than a week - or take his chances at the hospital that it will not disappear?
Frankly, the fact he did as he was suppossed to probably saved him from a lot of extra problems and drama. The 'drama' would have been caused when the EMS crew or ER folks came across it as part of their assessments and doing what they are suppossed as part of their routine patient care.
I'm not a fan of stumbling across concealed weapons on patients (*who if they are Alert and Oriented enough should have said something in the first place.) while looked into a small enclosed metal space and traveling down the road at 10-60mph. I'd have serious concern for my personal safety at that point, and that of my partners. Especially since we tend to deal with all sorts of 'upstanding citizens' for various reasons.
I'm all for the second amendment and carrying concealed, etc.. I do so myself. But if I was aware enough and in similar circumstances I would be the first one to speak up about it. If I were physically, mentally unable to do so at the time of course that's a whole different matter. Just my $.02
.........I doubt at this point whether we'll ever know the truth now and this guy will become another politicized pawn of the pro-gun/anti-gun movements.......
I don't think it's political and not with him running in the 3rd District - he ain't going to win.
I pretty much take the story at face value as to what happened. Because he's running for city council is maybe why the Observer wrote the story in the first place.
I'm sure that more than one person was amazed that the city can keep your weapon until they are finished with it.