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Dozer523
07-20-2009, 14:35
From the AKO Early Bird News 090720

Washington Post
July 20, 2009
Pg. 8

Marines Face Stiff Taliban Resistance
Logistical Difficulties Inhibit Troops During Clashes in Southern Afghan Province
By Ann Scott Tyson, Washington Post Staff Writer

GARMSIR, Afghanistan, July 19 -- Marines pushing deep into a Taliban stronghold in Afghanistan's southern Helmand province battled insurgents in a day of firefights around a key bazaar Sunday, as an operation designed as a U.S. show of force confronted resistance from Taliban fighters as well as constraints on supplies and manpower.
Insurgents at times showed unexpected boldness as they used machine guns, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades to fight the advancing Marine forces. Although the Marines overpowered the Taliban with more sophisticated weapons, including attack helicopters, the clashes also indicated that the drive by about 4,500 Marines to dislodge the Taliban from its heartland in Helmand is running up against logistical hurdles.

The firefights erupted a day after the Marines raided Lakari Bazaar in Garmsir district, a market that the Taliban has long used to store and make weapons and drugs, as well as to levy taxes on civilians. The Taliban until now had free rein in the area because there had been virtually no Western or Afghan government presence.
"This has been their turf for a long time, and now we are in here, invading their space," said Capt. John Sun, Fox Company commander, at his makeshift headquarters in a fabric stall inside the bazaar. "The bazaar was a huge financial and logistics base for the Taliban, and they want to get that back."
The Marine advance began Friday when Fox Company, a unit of roughly 200 Marines, traveled in open-back trucks on a grueling, overnight journey east and south through the desert to avoid routes implanted with bombs. The Taliban has littered the main routes in Garmsir with roadside bombs, called improvised explosive devices or IEDs, forcing U.S. commanders to bar most travel by military vehicles on those roads. The number of IED attacks in southern Afghanistan has surged 78 percent over the past year, with much of the increase in Helmand.
Arriving at Lakari Bazaar at daybreak Saturday for the raid, the Marines went door to door, using explosives, rifles and axes to break into each store."Breaching!" yelled Lance Cpl. Travis Koehler, 21, of Fountain Valley, Calif., as he shot off a lock with his MK-12 marksman's rifle and kicked open the door for a team of Marines to enter. "All clear!"

Afghan soldiers advised by British troops searched the market and together with the Marines uncovered mortars, grenades, ammunition, and thousands of 100-pound bags of opium poppy and bomb-making materials, as well as facilities where the bombs and drugs were produced. They found tax receipts and recruiting leaflets calling on young men to join the Taliban and kill British and U.S. troops.
"The bazaar has been used by the Taliban as a staging area, weapons cache and profit base," by taxing local vendors, Sun said.
The Taliban had left the market before the raid, however, and only a handful of shopkeepers were around, leaving it deserted but for a few cats and donkeys.

Late Saturday, Sun received word that the Taliban was regrouping in a nearby village across a canal to the west. At 3 a.m. Sunday, he launched 2nd Platoon, which includes dozens of Marines, on a foot patrol to investigate. At about 8, the patrol moved into an open field, where it was ambushed by Taliban fighters positioned in two tree lines to the south and east. When Taliban fighters fired the first shot with an AK-47 assault rifle, Sgt. Benjamin Pratt thought one of his Marines had discharged a round accidentally, he recounted. "Hey, who shot?" he called back to his squad. But within seconds, the men realized they were under fire. "Where is the . . . fire coming from?!" shouted Lance Cpl. James Faddis, 21, of Annapolis, Md. Faddis, in his first firefight, was the M-240 machine gunner for a weapons team that had advanced farther across the field than any other Marines and initially took the most direct fire from Taliban rifles and machine guns. Bullets were cracking around their heads and kicking up dust nearby. "Get your gun up!" yelled Cpl. Jonathan Kowalski, 25, of Erie, Pa., ordering the Marines to fire toward the tree line to the south, where he saw muzzle flashes and Taliban fighters in dark dishdashas running between positions.
The insurgents began firing mortar rounds, honing their aim until one landed just 150 yards from the Marines. The Marines called in mortars of their own, which were fired from the bazaar onto the tree line, causing a few minutes' lull in the fighting. Faddis and his team scrambled and crawled to a better position, but on the way Kowalski dropped his radio. So he and the other machine gunners had to shout to the infantrymen to indicate they could move forward.
Sgt. Deacon Holton bounded into the soggy field along with Cpl. Clayton Bowman and other Marines, running and slipping through knee-deep mud saturated from recent irrigation. As the Marines maneuvered, a Huey and a Cobra attack helicopter flew in low overhead, circling above to spot the fighters. Capt. Brian Hill, the forward air controller, put on a bright orange panel and wore it like a cape to identify the Marine position.
Often Taliban fighters flee when helicopters arrive, Sun said, but this time they stayed, and attempted to fire a rocket-propelled grenade at one of the aircraft. The Huey made two strafing runs with its Gatling guns over the tree lines, while the Cobra fired missiles, finally ending the firefight. The helicopter crew spotted at least two dead Taliban fighters.
Although the Marines asked to pursue the Taliban fighters south, more senior commanders denied the request. Sun said he thinks the problem was a lack of helicopters to provide air power and to evacuate any possible casualties, as well as roads that had not been cleared of bombs. "Due to the limited numbers of helicopters available, it would not have been in our best interest to get decisively engaged," Sun said. In addition, moving south would leave the bazaar open to attack, he said.

But some Marines voiced disappointment at not being able to track the Taliban, saying that decision may have allowed the insurgents to stage fresh attacks on the bazaar later in the afternoon. Faddis, Kowalski and their machine-gunning team were on guard duty in a mud-brick structure in the market that had a window facing fields to the south when shots broke out from a nearby compound. Faddis spotted a target and fired back. "They're moving out of the compound!" one Marine yelled, unleashing another volley of machine-gun fire. The gun battle was complicated by the presence of women, children and shepherds in adjacent fields. Having staked out a claim in Lakari Bazaar, Sun said, the question remains whether his company should continue to hold this relatively strung-out position or pull back, knowing such a move would allow the Taliban to return, at least temporarily."That's a dilemma," Sun said.

SF_BHT
07-20-2009, 15:20
Kick Ass Marines........:lifter

Gypsy
07-20-2009, 15:49
Get some, Marines. Keep safe.

Hostile0311
07-21-2009, 12:33
Drive on fellas. SEMPER FI!!!

FMF DOC
07-21-2009, 13:05
Rock On Brothers..... Be Safe

The Reaper
07-21-2009, 13:21
Is this solving our long term challenge of separating the civilians from the insurgents, ensuring the legitimacy and long-term success of the HN government?

Are we trying to kill our way to success here?

TR

Dozer523
07-21-2009, 13:45
Is this solving our long term challenge of separating the civilians from the insurgents, ensuring the legitimacy and long-term success of the HN government?

Are we trying to kill our way to success here?

TR
Exactly, Afghanistan is not Iraq. The only similarity betwen the two conflicts is that we are in both places. Historically, NO ONE has ever killed their way to success in Afghanistan. Ask the Persians:confused:, the British:(, the Russians:mad:. . . IMHO

greenberetTFS
07-21-2009, 13:54
Exactly, Afghanistan is not Iraq. The only similarity betwen the two conflicts is that we are in both places. Historically, NO ONE has ever killed their way to success in Afghanistan. Ask the Persians:confused:, the British:(, the Russians:mad:. . . IMHO

Dozer,TR

Serious question.....If this strategy isn't right,what should we be doing there?

Big Teddy :munchin

The Reaper
07-21-2009, 14:21
Dozer,TR

Serious question.....If this strategy isn't right,what should we be doing there?

Big Teddy :munchin

Showing the civilian populace that it is in their best interest to support us and our policies (us being US and the Afghan government) rather than the Taliban and AQ.

Making our HN leadership look good.

Using Afghan forces when interacting with the populace.

Taking time to drink chai with the local leadership, repeatedly over several months, and work with them on projects to make them look good. Then you start asking them for things, quietly.

Help your friends.

Saying please and thank you when appropriate.

Not busting into every store to find caches, unless every store has one.

Paying when you break something.

The tool for surgery is a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

You look for networks, and attack key personnel only if you cannot co-opt them.

You close the borders.

Not firing in the vicinity of women, children, and non-combatants with area effect weapons.

Keep the rock and roll with everything you have, to include air strikes, when you are in a defensive location, or out in the boonies.

If you have to hit someone, you swoop in under cover of darkness, hit the house you are after, the specific room you need to, with a minimum of fanfare, and grab the guy and get out without his family even knowing you are there.

Consider that we are about the third or fourth occupiers in the last 100 years, and those before us all failed.

Think about it like this. A potentially hostile force has invaded the U.S. under the guise of providing military assistance. A bunch of them drive from the next state to descend on your neighborhood looking for the resistance and their support. They bust into your store, and trash it. They break down the door to your house, and rough you up in front of your wife and kids before groping them and slapping them around. They do not speak your language, and use collaborators as translators. Their U.S. lackeys ransack your house, and take your personal possessions for their own. Then they leave, having seized your cash, crops, gun collection, son, and a few of the prominent citizens from your neighborhood, like your mayor, the teachers, the veterans, etc. They kill a couple of dozen of your neighbors, friends, and family, only a few who were actual Taliban supporters. Does this make you more likely to support the government that they have helped establish? Doesn't matter if the above actually happened as described, or not. Perceptions are everything. did you ever see "Red Dawn"?

That is the point we seem to have lost, unfortunately, especially the Marines.

That is the difference between a quiet, professional special operations force, who do this for years at the time, and guys who just claim the name for a few months.

This isn't just a poster:

SOF Imperatives

Understand the operational environment
Recognize political implications
Facilitate interagency activities
Engage the threat discriminately
Consider long-term effects
Ensure legitimacy and credibility of Special Operations
Anticipate and control psychological effects
Apply capabilities indirectly
Develop multiple options
Ensure long-term sustainment
Provide sufficient intelligence
Balance security and synchronization

TR

Dozer523
07-21-2009, 14:28
TR, Thanks for your excellent answer. :lifter

greenberetTFS
07-21-2009, 14:48
TR,

Your point is loud and clear,so why aren't we doing it? :confused: We (SF) have established ourselves (almost 60 years now),why don't they allow us to use it? :mad:

Big Teddy :munchin

Hostile0311
07-21-2009, 14:52
Only time will tell if the current operation in Helmand will be a success. Not much can be gleaned from this article except for the Marines moved in and "raided" the market. Was a "raid" warranted? I don't know. It seems they found a good stockpile of weapons and drugs so the ends appeared to justify the means in this case. Is this always the case? Of course not. I'll agree to the strategy of building rapport with the indigenous as per TR's previous post. However, Marines are not known for their "bedside manner". DA has always been the bread and butter for us. However, its blatantly obvious that the old addage of peace thru superior firepower doesn't always do the trick. But, maybe an old dog can learn new tricks. We'll just have to wait and see. I wish my fellow Marines on the ground nothing but success and a safe return home. Semper Fi.

MARSOC0211
07-21-2009, 15:01
I concur with TR’s assessment of how the Corps operates and more importantly, the impact it will have on the local populous. We as Marines are taught from that very first day in boot camp that every Marine is a rifleman and your primary job in life is to “close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver” and that all problems can be solved by fire superiority. Those concepts are invaluable when dealing with a straight up gun fight…They worked well during the Island Hopping Campaign and in Fallujah. But as it has been displayed time and time again, that type of application of force is ultimately detrimental in developing a support network comprised of locals.

One of my biggest frustrations when dealing with my fellow Marines is trying to sway that mentality. Most of them are very young men, (though some of the older ones are worse), and their motivation hinges on destroying things and killing the bad guys. Many do not understand or care that for every one bad guy you kill, there are 2 or 3 ready to fill his shoes. Job security I guess. We all need to focus on more positive interaction with the local populous if we ever really plan on winning this conflict.

I understand that it is rough there in the Helmand, but it can be done.

swpa19
07-21-2009, 16:20
TR

Your SOF Imperatives are somewhat similar to the Strategic Hamlet Initiatives, used in early VN.

This particular program was labled a failure by those "In the know". But the SF people I talked to said the program was working till the "Ash and Trash, with all the Brass" deemed a heavy hand would promote a more expiditious victory.

I guess we'll never know if that one would have worked or not. But like they say; "Those that refuse to study history..............."

Pete
07-21-2009, 17:21
..... Was a "raid" warranted? I don't know. It seems they found a good stockpile of weapons and drugs so the ends appeared to justify the means in this case. ......

Sigh;

I don't know either - but finding weapons and drugs? Man, thats like pulling a raid in a US neighborhood and saying you found cars and SUVs.

Utah Bob
07-21-2009, 17:36
The Marines are an assault force. Always have been. There's a time to employ them and let them use the tactics at which they are best. Sometimes you need a hammer or a real sharp spear.
Now, I can't say exactly what the situation was for this incident as my boots are firmly planted on the Colorado Plateau not the Afghan Plain but TR's post is dead on. We would be ill served in using too much hammer here.

I think we wrote the book on CI ops and that's what will get us out of this with our scalps intact, unlike the Brits, Russians, French etc.

Praetorian
07-21-2009, 18:52
The Marines are an assault force. Always have been. There's a time to employ them and let them use the tactics at which they are best.


Can somebody explain a rather rudimentary military question for me? Its something I've wondered about for a while. (I know my wife asked me the same question during the Iraq invasion and I didn't have an answer for her.)

To my limited military knowledge, the Marine Corp is a branch of the Navy. An amphibious type infantry force?

Why then are the Marines deployed to a landlocked country like Afghanistan?

Is there a general 'guideline' as to what branch goes where and when?

Thanks!

MARSOC0211
07-21-2009, 19:27
Can somebody explain a rather rudimentary military question for me? Its something I've wondered about for a while. (I know my wife asked me the same question during the Iraq invasion and I didn't have an answer for her.)

To my limited military knowledge, the Marine Corp is a branch of the Navy. An amphibious type infantry force?

Why then are the Marines deployed to a landlocked country like Afghanistan?

Is there a general 'guideline' as to what branch goes where and when?

Thanks!



Yes, the Corps falls in under the DoN (Dept. of the Navy).

Wikipedia has a pretty good / accurate description of the missions, roles, and responsiblities of the Marine Corps.

HTH

Utah Bob
07-21-2009, 21:02
Can somebody explain a rather rudimentary military question for me? Its something I've wondered about for a while. (I know my wife asked me the same question during the Iraq invasion and I didn't have an answer for her.)

To my limited military knowledge, the Marine Corp is a branch of the Navy. An amphibious type infantry force?

Why then are the Marines deployed to a landlocked country like Afghanistan?

Is there a general 'guideline' as to what branch goes where and when?

Thanks!

They are US combat troops. They go where they're ordered. That's up to the brains in the Pentagon. If you have combat troops, it's a good thing if they have some combat experience.

And by the way, it's Marine Corps.
It's not a corporation.;)

MARSOC0211
07-21-2009, 21:30
And by the way, it's Marine Corps.
It's not a corporation.;)

Now you tell me, I thought this investment was going to pay off in stock options ;)

alright4u
07-21-2009, 23:41
Only the men who have been there understand the locals. I have not been there, so; I cannot speculate.

Dozer523
07-22-2009, 09:46
Well, I was there . . . so I'll speculate. The population is key. These are a proud (not prideful) people who have been grossly mistreated throughout recent history. Especially so since the Russian Invasion, first by the Russians, then by the War Lords, then the Taliban. Now us? It may look to them that we are very much the same.
I was stationed in Kabul. Being FP we got to drive around the city and out to Camp Phoenix frequently. We conducted walking "presence patrols” within the city. Being SF the "little bro's" of Civil Affairs invited me to go along with them as they visited their projects all over the country. Being part of Anti-Terrorism cell I got to work with the local security force for our out-lying housing areas. I think I had a pretty good view.
From traveling around the city I saw the Afghan people are very young. The majority of the population is well under 18 years old. Two generations are under-educated. People do not live to 'ripe old ages' there. They love their children -- "gifts of God" and more then anything want the kids educated, and healthy. All the kids go to school. The adults want to have the "modern conveniences" like cell phones and internet. But they don't want to be Western. They want to be Afghans.
Traveling around with the Civil Affairs -- most of the CA at Camp Eggers were part of the legal cell. Afghans want a Justice system that works -- more at the Civil Level then the Criminal Level. The Italians actually have responsibility for advising them. They want a rule of law that is separate from religion. (As ours is separate yet influenced by our Judeo-Christian culture.) They want the influence of their religion but I didn't see (or hear any complaints/comments from the CA experts) that Muslim Law was desired.
From my dealings with the typical gate guard "guy off the street” they want a paycheck, to take pride in their work, be financially stable enough that they can have a wife, provide a better life for their children, and provide for their parents. They don't really care about the past of the guy next to them -- we had guys who had been in the Soviet sponsored Army, part of the structure supported by the Taliban, with the War Lords, with us. (If they cared about the past they were more interested in family connections.)
In the country-side they want the roads to be safe and the lights to turn on.
So what about opium? The Dozer solution is let the farmers grow all they want. Just require them to sell it all to the Government or the US or ISAF. Pay a living wage for it. Offer assistance with alternative crops so farmers can get off the easy to grow cash crop to more beneficial cash crops. They don't want heroin, they want cash. And they want to be left alone. With assistance farmers will return Afghanistan to being the food exporter they were before the arrival of the Russians. What else would help? What if we could design a power grid that allowed cheap, reliable electricity to flow into the country now and that could be converted to a means to export hydro-electric power after it is restored, improved?
They are good people they will respond positively to doing the exact things The Reaper lists. From my perspective doing those things are not only more productive then kicking in doors but a hell of a lot more fun. My oldest son has two tours completed in Iraq. When we have had this conversation he thinks "Maybe that would work with the Kurds but the Sunni and Shiite don't think that way. Drives home my concern that we cannot conduct these two conflicts the same way. Time and time again, the USMC has imposed lessons learned in Iraq inappropriately on Afghanistan. They are no more the same then football and soccer.
Lastly, I realized it was poor OPSEC in the classic sense but when I was out among the populace the fastest way to make a friend, gather a friendly crowd, earn a smile or a handshake was to pull out a picture of my kids. I instantly went from "guy with a gun from outside" to "guy just like me, who will go home when he's done helping."
I'm looking forward to going back. But this time I'll speak pashtu.

Richard
07-22-2009, 09:58
And by the way, it's Marine Corps.

We used to spell it Marine Corpse...back when. :rolleyes:

We also used to remind them the largest amphibious landings in the ETO and PTO were executed by the US Army. :D

Ahhhh...dontcha just love them time honored inter-service rivalries...:D

Well, I was there . . . so I'll speculate.

Well thought-out speculation.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

alright4u
07-22-2009, 13:57
Thanks. "Extremely informative." My research on Afghan was limited to the internet for the people, history, etc. Not area study quality for sure. Most history stated the Pastuns controlled things?

Seems like most agree DA / kicking in doors in populated areas is not bright.

I am lost on this NATO idea.

Are any of the NATO troops SF? If so, are there any who are good at working with, recruiting, organizing, training, and leading these local troops, or how does that work there? I am not expectecting an OPSEC breach reply. Perhaps, someone would be kind enough to share his view of various NATO troops? Even a PM would be appreciated.

Is there some law/custom or rule in Afghan that prevents us from hiring , training, organizing, and leading Afghan troops, plus paying them directly? I ask as it appears we have taken some warlord/local CO and his troops on some OPS in the past..

Does the enemy often engage US, NATO, and Afghan troops when they can use civilains?


I have not read the "new" COIN" FM/manual, but; why do we reinvent wheels all the the time? Now, last, is Afghan more of a CI or UW war or what would those who have been there and actually been out with the local troops or Afghan Gov troops on combat OPS call it?

Thanks. I am trying to understand/learn. If a PM is appropriate -please feel free to PM. If no one wants to reply, I understand, too.

Richard
07-22-2009, 14:17
I am lost on this NATO idea.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_8189.htm

Gutes lesen. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Utah Bob
07-22-2009, 15:27
We used to spell it Marine Corpse...back when. :rolleyes:

We also used to remind them the largest amphibious landings in the ETO and PTO were executed by the US Army.

Ahhhh...dontcha just love them time honored inter-service rivalries...:D



Well thought-out speculation.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

The Marine Hymn also goes well to the tune of My Darling Clementine. :D

Pete
07-22-2009, 15:43
The Marine Hymn also goes well to the tune of My Darling Clementine. :D

Try Amazing Grace sung to the tune of Gilligan's Island.

Or Gilligan's Island sung to the tune of Amazing Grace.

I know a guy that can do both. And after a few drinks both are hard to listen to with a straight face.

MARSOC0211
07-22-2009, 17:37
Come on now gents, can't we all just get along:D

Utah Bob
07-22-2009, 20:37
Originally posted by MARSOC0211
Come on now gents, can't we all just get along?:D

I thought we were.
You're just outnumbered is all.:D

Razor
07-22-2009, 23:12
Sometimes the rules do not apply and it is the right thing to do.

Absolutely. That said, someone reading this may learn a valuable lesson from Dozer's excellent TTP and find a picture of some nice, young children on the Internet, print it off, laminate it and stick it in their wallet to gain the same result with less PERSEC risk.