View Full Version : Arab Festival 2009
Watch what happens when two Christian men attempt to engage in dialogue with Arab Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan.
Any one up for a trip to the Arab Festival 2010? I have a few questions I would like to ask.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPod-hxD7g
Here is link to an article on the festival. Apparently, the two men in the video do not belong to Arabic Christian Perspective, the subject of the article.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=35384
incarcerated
07-05-2009, 00:05
The Brownshirts are here.
You know, when surrounded by an angry mob that is assaulting you and threatening to "move you", I could make a strong case for "my life is in danger" and respond accordingly.
I just finished watching that video. David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi didn't do anything wrong. I give those two fellas a lot of credit for what they did and I hope to see more of it. Sadly, this sort of video will do nothing but juxtapose the liberal and socialist cause in this country as being apologists for the misunderstood demonspawn jihadis!
It makes me think of all the times some hoodlum or rabble-rouzer used the First Amendment to circumvent charges against them for whatever and the liberal ACLU and its ilk stepped up to the podium to help them. Well, ya know what... now its somebody else's turn! I hope Wood and Qureshi exercise their rights!!
BMT (RIP)
07-08-2009, 09:47
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/12717
:munchin
BMT
Dearbornastan, lovely place for a Jihadi vacation, meet the friendly locals, sample the exotic food...enjoy
Warrior-Mentor
07-08-2009, 14:44
Disturbing. The challenge is, how to stop it...
Stopping it, I think, means modifying the environment - here I hearken back to the statement that warm water lets the fish multiply, but cold water kills the fish.
I am under the strong impression that any cultural group other than the historically dominant group(s) are protected, encouraged, and supported by elements in academia, the media, and government. So long as they are encouraged while the mainstream culture is suppressed, they will grow stronger - and other groups will weaken.
So perhaps the question becomes, how can members of the primary culture be motivated to use the political tools and methods that can modify the environment - and produce ice-cold water for the more problematic fish.
So perhaps the question becomes, how can members of the primary culture be motivated to use the political tools and methods that can modify the environment - and produce ice-cold water for the more problematic fish.
nmap,
I respect your wisdom sir. Any thoughts or insight into what this may entail?
TommyGun
07-09-2009, 09:25
Maybe we need to go to Dearborn and play a little Cowboys and Arabs!!!
TG
nmap,
I respect your wisdom sir. Any thoughts or insight into what this may entail?
Thank you for the kind words....
This is a subject I've been looking at for some time, beginning in June 2006 when I was admitted to the Educational Policy and Leadership program. The word "policy" is the key item here, and, if I may, I'm going to digress on it a bit. Please keep in mind, I'm in the very early stages of grasping some concepts.
As nearly as I can tell, most of us don't get exposed to much (or really anything) about policy and how it's made. We see some law come up in the congress, we may make a call or send a letter, and then we watch as the various politicians act out their parts. But - where did that law come from? And why did it come up? Did some clerk in a congressman's office put it together in her spare time?
It turns out that creating policy is an entire field of study. The lobbyists, the political insiders, and all the rest are serious players. They may work diligently for years or even decades to make some new law or regulation happen. The rest of us are blissfully unaware of what's happening.
A second little event caught my attention some years later - early 2008, as I recall. There was a presentation of an academic paper that discussed some of the early efforts by Hispanics to change rules and policies in schools at the K-12 level back in the late 1950's (as I recall). Anyway, the paper discussed some of the various tactics used by the activists and how effective they were. I noticed that nothing has changed - the activists are using exactly the same methods and tactics. And why shouldn't they? Those tactics have worked!
So I think we face a two-part problem. Part is engagement in making policy. And part is activism. Perhaps you recall the opening scene in the film Patton, where General Patton defeats Rommel. Patton comments that he read Rommel's book. As in the film, we can read the other side's book.
So...
The first book I recommend was suggested to me by one of the smartest people I have ever met. He spent a lifetime studying and understanding such things. The title is:
Policy Studies for Educational Leaders: An Introduction (2nd Edition) (Hardcover) by Frances C. Fowler
It's pricey - about $100. So it might be best to get it through a library, perhaps through interlibrary loan. It's an easy read, and it gives step-by-step instructions to policy. Granted, it focuses on education - but it can be used in other areas too. Also, keep in mind that the local school board is the beginning rung of the elected power structure. So efforts at that level might be seen as a confidence building exercise.
The other side of the coin is activism. I have some issues with classic activism; it tends to involve behavior that ranges from rudeness to petty crime. But I think one must consider effectiveness, too. The advance of the left through use of these approaches is, in my opinion, something to reflect upon. Until we can come up with something better, we might do well to study their tactics.
I have not read the following books, but I think they would make a good start in understanding the problem. They are meant as guidebooks for activists, although the authors intend a strongly leftist orientation.
Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals, by Saul Alinsky
Anything by William Ayers would be worth studying.
The MoveOn.org site is filled with material. Take a look at the political action section, with training materials:
http://www.moveon.org/team/training/index.html
(Complete with how to organize).
Of less value, but perhaps worth investigating is
http://www.democraticunderground.com
At this juncture, I may well have written some things that are offensive to some good people. Please understand that I am not advocating the positions of the referenced authors. I am simply stating where the material that describes their methods and procedures can be found, with the intention of helping to oppose those tactics in a lawful manner.
At any rate, sg1987, I believe that's the starting point. It will take lots of dedicated people at least years - and probably decades - to make a difference.
MOO, YMMV...
Surf n Turf
07-09-2009, 22:42
nmap,
Here are the summary of Alinsky’s Rules for radicals. They are a good primer if used AGAINST the radicals. I am currently reading his book.
SnT
Rules for Radicals
Rule 1: Power is not only what you have, but what an opponent thinks you have.
If your organization is small, hide your numbers in the dark and raise a din that will make everyone think you have many more people than you do.
Rule 2: Never go outside the experience of your people.
The result is confusion, fear, and retreat.
Rule 3: Whenever possible, go outside the experience of an opponent. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.
Rule 4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules.
“You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”
Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.
Rule 6: A good tactic is one your people enjoy.
“If your people aren’t having a ball doing it, there is something very wrong with the tactic.”
Rule 7: A tactic that drags on for too long becomes a drag.
Commitment may become ritualistic as people turn to other issues.
Rule 8: Keep the pressure on.
Use different tactics and actions and use all events of the period for your purpose. “The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this that will cause the opposition to react to your advantage.”
Rule 9: The threat is more terrifying than the thing itself.
When Alinsky leaked word that large numbers of poor people were going to tie up the washrooms of O’Hare Airport, Chicago city authorities quickly agreed to act on a longstanding commitment to a ghetto organization. They imagined the mayhem as thousands of passengers poured off airplanes to discover every washroom occupied. Then they imagined the international embarrassment and the damage to the city’s reputation.
Rule 10: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. Avoid being trapped by an opponent or an interviewer who says, “Okay, what would you do?”
Rule 11: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it.
Don’t try to attack abstract corporations or bureaucracies. Identify a responsible individual. Ignore attempts to shift or spread the blame.
“The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.” , sort of Aikido of the mind-game
Warrior-Mentor
07-10-2009, 08:41
Apparently, we need to elect an Australian:
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia:
"Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..
"Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
Quote:
'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '
"'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
"'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
"'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
"'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why.. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
"'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted..' "
I just hope our friendly FBI neighbors ;) were keeping an eye out during that event. :cool:
Apparently, we need to elect an Australian:
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia:
"Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..
"Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
Quote:
'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '
"'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
"'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
"'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
"'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why.. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
"'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted..' "
I want to move Down Under.....
Thank you for the reply nmap.
Rommel, you magnificent bastard! I read your book!
I remember it well!
You are correct. I, like many I guess, don’t care for the liberal’s agendas…. Not enough however to have taken the time to study them as you suggest. This is a wise suggestion to say the least.
I am under the strong impression that any cultural group other than the historically dominant group(s) are protected, encouraged, and supported by elements in academia, the media, and government. So long as they are encouraged while the mainstream culture is suppressed, they will grow stronger - and other groups will weaken.
There was a presentation of an academic paper that discussed some of the early efforts by Hispanics to change rules and policies in schools at the K-12 level back in the late 1950's...
This, to me, is where we are losing to the left; the proper education of our kids or the lack thereof. This answer to a question put to Stephen Pressfield struck me…
GR: Randy, a Goodreads member and Marine comments, "Pressfield uses the battle of Thermopylae...as a backdrop for studying the psychological makeup of what a soldier should be. This is a great book for anyone who is thinking of, or soon will be joining, military service. Those who are confused as to why a friend or loved one wants to join the military can very likely gain their answers from this book." Gates of Fire is required reading at several military schools around the country. Why do you think this is the case? What is it about your book that appeals to the military-inclined mind? Who else could learn from your books?
SP: Gates of Fire has a theme, and the theme is courage. It's also very much about the camaraderie of fighting men and of the warrior ethos. Believe me, this is still alive and well, despite all P.C. efforts to exile it into the past. Today's Marines and soldiers, however, like the rest of us, are woefully undereducated. No one has studied the past, so we all feel as if we're the first people on the planet to be confronting the issues we're confronting. That's where a book like Gates fills a gap. Marines and Army guys read it and realize that the same stuff they're going through has been gone through by a lot of other warriors before them, and that those warriors and the societies they lived in had highly evolved codes of honor and conduct. It gives our young soldiers and Marines a longer historical perspective and inspires them that they're not alone and they're not the first; in fact, they're part of a long and honorable tradition of the profession of arms. It helps!
Our children are no longer taught what we older folks were taught. I was taught that America has a long and honorable tradition. That all beliefs are NOT equally valid. That God- the Christian God, (yes I said it) has given us our liberty. That our system of Government IS better than others. I don’t mean to rant but I’m sickened by some of the crap I see taking place today in our public schools. Many of the conservative folks I know are either homeschooling or using private schools.
When I attended elementary school in Troup county Georgia we began each day with the principal reading a passage from the Bible, saying the pledge of Allegiance and a prayer. Neither I nor my family was Christian then but I was taught within the school that there was a basis for right and wrong …. that it is a great thing to be an American…. that we are the recipients of a long honorable tradition. This multi-cultural P.C. junk is producing a nation of people that no longer have a “highly evolved code of honor and conduct.” Many in our land don’t know what it means to be an American; don’t know that God is the author of our lives and our liberty. Many don’t know that it is man that will rob another man of his freedom. A continual, hard, non P.C. look at the fruits of Islam, communism, atheism, and totalitarianism would be most beneficial for all American youth.
I know that there are many of the “dominant culture” remaining, but we are shrinking with time. Maybe some form of activism is in order- rather than abandoning the public education ship. I don’t know. I do see that as more of us “religious right” (Christians) folks withdraw from the system there is less of the influence needed within the system.-my .02
Falshrmjgr
07-10-2009, 10:22
IN THE PRESENT CASE, CHANGE OCCURS WHEN THE RULERS FAIL TO FOLLOW THE CORRECT PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCING FUTURE GUARDIANS AND RULERS. AS A RESULT, SUBSEQUENT GENERATIONS NEGLECT TRAINING IN THE ARTS FIRST OF ALL, AND THEN PHYSICAL TRAINING ALSO. THE ABILITY TO JUDGE THE NATURES OF MEN DETERIORATES, AND THE CLASS OF RULERS BECOMES NO LONGER HOMOGENEOUS, SO THAT DISSENSION AMONG THEM RESULTS. BY A COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE BETTER AND THE WORSE AMONG THEM, LAND AND HOUSES ARE DISTRIBUTED AS PRIVATE PROPERTY; AND THE RULERS NOW REGARD AS THEIR SLAVES THOSE WHOM THEY PREVIOUSLY GUARDED AND VIEWED AS THEIR FRIENDS AND PROVIDERS.
- Plato, The Republic
It would seem that Plato's belief that the culture of a nation should be homogeneous is most accurate. While our Founding Fathers very rightly provided for the freedom of one's exercise of religion, they never envisioned a world taken to ludicrous extremes where the culture of our nation would diverge from one of Christian CULTURE.
Even an agnostic must recognize that a common core belief system is the grease on the axle of a society, and that competing cultures within a nation can only lead to cultural anarchy.
This cultural anarchy is a temporary condition which is akin to a vacuum in nature, soon to be filled by an emergent culture. The question then becomes, what culture?
If we choose to look at revolutionary models, which propose to tear down extant governments with anarchy, then fill that power vacuum with their own brand of oligarchy, we see a familiar pattern taking place within American culture today.
Of course, recognition of these forces is the first step in battling them, and so far they have successfully couched themselves in cloaks of "civil rights."
I shudder to consider the America my children will inherit.
Hmmmm - just a bunch of innocent bystanders (calling themselves Acts 17 Apologists - no inference there) with cameras (more than one placed around the area) out for a stroll by going to an ethnic fest to challenge the core beliefs of the sponsors and prove them wrong :confused: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologists ) - arguing with a continuum of size two hatted 'security' (Ha!) personnel. Notice how the main actor outright lies to the police - "I was only trying to leave" - about what he was doing at the end of the video after accusing everyone else of lying to the security personnel during the various confrontations?
No propaganda in this video - kinda like a Klan march down Peachtree in Atlanta on MLK Day or those good Christian ffolkes from Kansas picketing a military funeral.
This video and the text of the article would be a good piece on the dangers of propaganda and POV to dissect and analyze in a PSYOPs course - not entirely true and not entirely false - but enough of each to be manipulated by any choosing to do so - which the makers of the video and the writer of the article do. Sad - and one of the problems of the WWW - for everyone. :(
YMMV ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
No propaganda in this video - kinda like a Klan march down Peachtree in Atlanta on MLK Day or those good Christian ffolkes from Kansas picketing a military funeral.
Did you watch the same video linked to in this thread? By any stretch of the imagination, I don't see how you can equate the actions of the two Christian men in the video with the KKK or the nut jobs from the Westboro Baptist church.
Moderator,
I suggest we merge this thread with this one:
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24003
Good point - yours was posted first - done. Richard
Did you watch the same video linked to in this thread? By any stretch of the imagination, I don't see how you can equate the actions of the two Christian men in the video with the KKK or the nut jobs from the Westboro Baptist church.
Their actions were done to get an reaction from the event people. Were the security guards right NO but the two asking questions with their T-Shirts and cross were there to invoke a reaction......
Does the religion of peace and tolerance have tolerance NO but this situation is more than just one side.....
Brown Shirts did the same thing, the KKK has done the same and they all were defending their right as they viewed it to get their point out.
Did you watch the same video linked to in this thread? By any stretch of the imagination, I don't see how you can equate the actions of the two Christian men in the video with the KKK or the nut jobs from the Westboro Baptist church.
Yep - did you read my first paragraph? I watched it several times as well as rereading the script - the agendas on both sides of the lens were less than innocent - and the self-proclaimed Apologists reminded me of a German tourist I watched once who climbed down on a beach to prod an Elephant Seal into action because the seal wasn't moving enough for his video camera - the seal moved plenty fast enough when kicked and the tourist lost a leg. :eek: Self-fulfilling Darwinianism IMO - but YMMV.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
The issue of propaganda is a fascinating one. It's important for any group to get its message out, and to craft that message such that it improves support from current and prospective allies - and, if possible, demoralizes opponents.
One heavy-handed example (IMO) is Cramer on MSNBC. (Hopefully, that's a fairly uncontroversial choice) If one tracks his recommendations, he's been rather consistently wrong - but he's quite a showman. He presents his message strongly. A better example is the typical car commercial. The message suggests that anyone with that particular new car is young, vibrant, exciting, and (ahem) a chick magnet. We can also see the same effect in pronouncements that green shoots of economic recovery are developing - in essence, there is an effort to create economic recovery by changing consumer attitudes.
There is, however, another side to this. I think it may be necessary to have a certain critical mass of a population that agrees that a particular viewpoint is "right". The discussion about the methods of the group, the guards, and so forth suggests that there is a lack of consensus. So an activist group is faced with an additional task - which is (I suppose?) to persuade some number of people that they are "right", and that it is necessary that the "wrong" (however defined) must be "made right".
I think the activists, in this instance, face the challenge of showing that the other group is "wrong", and that the world will be a better place if things are changed in some particular way. Since this is very much counter to the mainstream media and official messages, communicating such a notion is at least a challenge.
Since the issue of brownshirts has come up, the matter of environment may apply. Germany had gotten along with its Jewish community for some time prior - but the economic strains of the era made that community a convenient target. I suspect any activist group should consider the overall environment in crafting their message. Where this gets interesting (but not necessarily pleasant) is if the markets (stock, housing, commodity, and so forth) continue down and large numbers of people encounter real distress.
According to my dreadfully limited understanding, the Muslims have a system which combines religious and secular governance into a single entity. Thus, a U.S. Muslim can go to a representative of their belief system and get assistance with money problems, finding a job, and so forth. That's a potentially powerful tool for recruiting, for control, and for maintaining loyalty among those involved. Groups in opposition to them might wish to consider how to offset such a strategy. In addition, they might wish to consider their own recruiting tools.
There is, however, another side to this. I think it may be necessary to have a certain critical mass of a population that agrees that a particular viewpoint is "right".
The 2 guys in the video did this specifically to recruit, and to use the video to raise awareness. They're basically forming a separate country in the U.S. and IMHO, this sort of thing needs to be CLOSELY examined while it happens, to assure that the Constitution is followed more closely than the Quran. This is why...
Ask yourself these 2 questions:
If a Muslim walked into a fundamentalist Christian church (where all members and the pastor STRICTLY follow the teachings of Christ) in the US and began praying loudly during the middle of a service or Mass, what would the response from the pastor and congregation likely be?
Now what if a Christian did the same thing in a fundamentalist mosque in the US? What about in a Muslim country, where Religion is Law?
Are those answers the same? I find it doubtful, even when both institutions are in the U.S.
This video is actually an EXCELLENT view of the difference between a hardcore Christian view of martyrdom and a hardcore Muslim view, taken down about 8 notches.
A true Christian belief in martyrdom is based on professing your faith in the face of enemies who mean to harm and kill you, who would persecute you because of your faith. Was it stupid for them to walk into there? Yeah. Was it preplanned? Yeah. They were looking for it. If they were really, really serious they would have stayed and gotten the sh*t beaten out of them.
Which would have demonstrated exactly the Muslim view on things. The only true saints and martyrs are those who kill the infidels, or die in the attempt.
The weird thing is, Christianity tends to have an excellent track record for getting more members when believers publicly demonstrate willingness to die for their faith. It must be something about how assured they are of the afterlife, to die so willingly.
My 2 pennies anyways.
Plutarch
07-10-2009, 21:50
No propaganda in this video - kinda like a Klan march down Peachtree in Atlanta on MLK Day or those good Christian ffolkes from Kansas picketing a military funeral.
So people who spread the gospel of Jesus Christ are equivalent to klansmen? I guess I better go poke some eyeholes in my sheets then. :rolleyes:
Firstly, these gentlemen run a ministry to reach out to the the muslim community. To do that they need to go to areas where the muslim people are, areas such as this fair.
Secondly, it's not like they were standing outside a mosque with a bullhorn. They went to a booth that had a banner that said "Islam, got questions? Get answers". They were inviting discussion with non-muslims.
More than likely they only became incensed when they realized that one of the men was a former muslim, who could point out the errors in their literature to them in Arabic.
The idea that Christians need to shut up and stay in their church buildings, or risk being labeled bigots, leads me to ask the following question.
"Is this the United States of America?"
I guess the enlightened answer to this is "NO WAY!"
:mad:
So people who spread the gospel of Jesus Christ are equivalent to klansmen? I guess I better go poke some eyeholes in my sheets then. :rolleyes:
Firstly, these gentlemen run a ministry to reach out to the the muslim community. To do that they need to go to areas where the muslim people are, areas such as this fair.
Secondly, it's not like they were standing outside a mosque with a bullhorn. They went to a booth that had a banner that said "Islam, got questions? Get answers". They were inviting discussion with non-muslims.
More than likely they only became incensed when they realized that one of the men was a former muslim, who could point out the errors in their literature to them in Arabic.
The idea that Christians need to shut up and stay in their church buildings, or risk being labeled bigots, leads me to ask the following question.
"Is this the United States of America?"
I guess the enlightened answer to this is "NO WAY!"
:mad:
Richard will be here shortly........
You should open your eyes and understand the points that he and the rest of us were making. No one said Christan's were like the KKK. Go back and read all post and try to read them without a chip on your shoulder. Objectively and from all perspectives.
It is late and this little keyboard is hard to type on so I will get back to this in the morning.
So people who spread the gospel of Jesus Christ are equivalent to klansmen? I guess I better go poke some eyeholes in my sheets then. :rolleyes:
Are you saying that Christianity hasn't been used to advance the cause of white supremacy? Are you saying that religion has never been subverted in the name of a political agenda?
Firstly, these gentlemen run a ministry to reach out to the the muslim community. To do that they need to go to areas where the muslim people are, areas such as this fair.
They choose to go to these areas, they don't need to go to these areas. There are other means of communicating a message.
Secondly, it's not like they were standing outside a mosque with a bullhorn. They went to a booth that had a banner that said "Islam, got questions? Get answers". They were inviting discussion with non-muslims.They were inviting discussions but on their terms. The people told them to turn off the cameras if they wanted to talk. If discussion were the primary goal, why not accommodate that request? If the goal is truly Christian outreach to the Muslim community in line with the organization's mission statement, why pick tactics designed to provoke a confrontation, the cameras to 'document' the confrontation, and then the use of the internet to publicize the confrontation?
The idea that Christians need to shut up and stay in their church buildings, or risk being labeled bigots[...]
Where is that suggestion being made?
Where is that comparison being drawn?
Americans do not have the right to voice an opinion with a course of action with which they disagree?
If one's cause is truly righteous, does one really give two hoots and a holler what critics say?
freelander
07-10-2009, 23:21
I watched the video and I have been following the comments with interest. If I make a small observation in regards to Islam, Muslims and other faiths.
Muslims have a sub-conscious superiority complex due to their belief that Islam is the final religion. Many attempts at proselytization, especially among well educated Muslim countries, the few that are, have been largely failures because Islam teaches that Muhammad is the last messenger of God until Judgment Day. Therefor, any previous religion, ie Christianity and Judaism (the faiths recognized by Muhammad) are simply old news--despite major theological differences. Having grown up Iranian and American, and having many instances where religion is the topic of discussion among me and my friends, I have observed that many Muslim people in general are not adamant about this superiority and most people are down to earth and just like you and me--they want all the basic things in life, family, a job, kids etc and to be left alone. However, when the issues of Islam and other religions become a heated discussion, many a surrah exist to back up a Muslims claim to this idea, and to them they carry just as much weight as John 3:16 does to a Christian.
These people with the camera must have known that this reaction was coming--that's why they did it and that's why they brought a camera and posted on youtube. If one was seriously interested in having a dialogue with members of other faiths, there are more cultured ways of doing things.
In any case, as a Baha'i I have always viewed religion in a different light. My family was exiled from Iran when the revolution came and they shot my 65 yr old grandmothers dog and threw her in jail for being an Israeli spy. I know first hand the ugliness of political Islam and how it has permeated and petrified the minds of many across the World, some of those whom we are after. Political religion, be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism is as toxic as VX nerve agent. The real effort, instead of pushing an agenda supposedly based on religious values, should be instead enforcing an international standard of human rights and law--based on good ol' American documents.
Great thread. I love the discussion…
Are you saying that Christianity hasn't been used to advance the cause of white supremacy? Are you saying that religion has never been subverted in the name of a political agenda?
Christianity has been subverted for political reasons before. The ultimate reason for Islam is Theocracy.
They choose to go to these areas, they don't need to go to these areas. There are other means of communicating a message.
They were inviting discussions but on their terms. The people told them to turn off the cameras if they wanted to talk. If discussion were the primary goal, why not accommodate that request?
They wanted to do more than dialogue. It is apparent to me that they were familiar with the audience. They wanted to document what’s happening within a certain community here in the US that many won’t touch. These “Arabs” don’t want any light shown on what they are doing.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.- John 3:20
The idea that Christians need to shut up and stay in their church buildings, or risk being labeled bigots[...]
Where is that suggestion being made?
By your Statement...
They choose to go to these areas, they don't need to go to these areas. There are other means of communicating a message.
. The real effort, instead of pushing an agenda supposedly based on religious values, should be instead enforcing an international standard of human rights and law--based on good ol' American documents.
Question:
What was the basis for our good ol' American documents?
Based on my studies and personal experiences with Christianity, Judaism, and Islam - I remain pretty much in agreement with Mr Clemens' observations and musings on the subject.
Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion. A Horse's Tale
Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain. Notebook
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us. Following the Equator
Alas! those good old days are gone, when a murderer could wipe the stain from his name and soothe his trouble to sleep simply by getting out his blocks and mortar and building an addition to a church. The Innocents Abroad
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven....The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste. The Lowest Animal
In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing. Autobiography
Zeal and sincerity can carry a new religion further than any other missionary except fire and sword. Christian Science
A religion that comes of thought, and study, and deliberate conviction, sticks best. The revivalized convert who is scared in the direction of heaven because he sees hell yawn suddenly behind him, not only regains confidence when his scare is over, but is ashamed of himself for being scared, and often becomes more hopelessly and malignantly wicked than he was before. Letter Alta California
We don't cut up when mad men are bred by the old legitimate regular stock religions, but we can't allow wildcat religions to indulge in such disastrous experiments. The New Wildcat Religion
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Question:
What was the basis for our good ol' American documents?
A: Western Philosophical Thought and its influence upon our so-callled Founding Fathers - writings of philosophers and political philosophers such as John Locke's 17th century views on social contract theory, natural law, and limited government - which were echoed by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence.
17th century John Locke:
The state of nature has a Law of Nature to govern it, which obliges everyone, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions.
18th century Thomas Jefferson - Declaration of Independence:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
And that became the basis for many parts of the US Constitution - such as the 1st Amendment:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt1.html
Richard's $.02 :munchin
freelander
07-11-2009, 08:54
I concur with Richard. Some argue that the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were derived from the Bible. Not true. Although many of the values are similar, secular humanity had many of the principles down before Christ. See the Romans and Greeks. I am not saying that the Bible did not influence the founding fathers, just simply that it wasn't the only influence.
There is a trend among all faiths to attribute philosophical acumen to religion. This conclusion needs to be thorougly thought out and explained before it can be justified. Typing from my iPhone, I will say that I personally believe that human acomplishment and divine scripture are not so incompatible. With a discerning eye we can see that they often go hand in hand. It is only when we lean too far to one end do we have problems.
My dad always said: God gave you a brain... Use it!
Cheers.
After watching the tape, I have a few thoughts - although I am coming from it with my perspective as a citizen, my view as a citizen is rooted in my beliefs as a die-hard "fundamentalist" (read conservative evangelical) Christian.
As far as Christians influencing the Islamic world, abroad and at home, there are right ways and wrong ways to go about it. Below are some bullet point observations.
- The booth was looking to convert. Anybody uninterested in converting would by default not be welcome.
- The guy who seemed to be the "interviewer" for the Christians could have gone about this in a much more culturally sensitive way. Think PSYOP, not politically correct. The cross on his neck? maybe. The necklace and the shirt? It was for show.
- The security guards seemed to be normal volunteer security. They over reacted to a perceived threat. They let emotions run hot.
- The ladies behind the cameras did not seem well suited for the job. They were aggressive and ready to passively dominate, such as when they kept repeating over and over "That is assault. In America that is assault. This is America".
- If I were one of the Muslims in this situation, the entire incident would have tarnished my view of Christians and Christianity. From first hand experience, Christians are portrayed as aggressive, insensitive, conniving operators with anything but Muslims best interest in mind. An encounter such as this would cement that idea in my mind.
My conclusion is that much more harm that good will come out of this incident. It can easily be used to promote the Islamic attitude towards Christians. It gives a bad rap to Christians in general.
Now, is there a right way to achieve the outcome they claimed to have (ask questions and get answers)? I say yes.
- If the interviewer spoke Arabic, he should have made his introductions and gotten permission to film in Arabic.
- The group should have been up front about their objectives. Hopefully their objectives were to help the average American Christian gain a better understanding of the "Islamic" attitude towards terror, and to accurately portray said attitude in the finished product they were turning out.
- The cameras should have been on tripods, in a stationary position. You can't intimidate a camera into moving, and you can't claim to be threatened by a stationary object.
- Camera operators should have been small framed women. Small framed women are much harder to portray as a threat or intimidate than any other gender/body type. Honest to goodness I saw this in cross-examination a hundred times. Guys make asses of themselves when they try to use power tactics on a doll. Doing so would only have cemented the stereotype that Muslim men disrespect women.
- If the Muslim group still refused to cooperate, cut your losses and move on. No need to make a scene. A simple statement later can make the point. "such and such a booth refused to take questions on camera." Would have left a better image of the Acts 17 Apologetics group in my mind.
If your goal is to cause a confrontation, don't do it in the name of Christianity. If your goal is to win hearts and minds for the glory of God, more power to you.
-Out
Homebase is here -
Answering Muslims - The Islamoblog of Acts 17 Apologetics Ministries
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I wonder if these guys had a recruiting tent at the Festival?
They produce some fine graduates.:rolleyes:
Coalition Fights Expansion of Islamic Saudi Academy in Virginia
A holy war is brewing in Virginia, where a controversial Islamic school is seeking permission to expand its campus and a group of residents is going all out to stop it.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,532365,00.html?test=latestnews
I wonder if these guys had a recruiting tent at the Festival?
They produce some fine graduates.
As do many schools internationally - even SWC has produced some stellar grads we can all be proud of. ;)
Interesting school - doesn't quite look as if it's a madrasah of the sort we've seen in Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.
http://www.saudiacademy.net/2008AboutISA.html
Richard's $.02 :munchin
As do many schools internationally - even SWC has produced some stellar grads we can all be proud of. ;)
Interesting school - doesn't quite look as if it's a madrasah of the sort we've seen in Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.
http://www.saudiacademy.net/2008AboutISA.html
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Come on now.....
Infiltrate, assimilate, gather Intel and then strike with non threatening unknowns. Know your enemy before you can fight and defeat your enemy.
The do not look like Madrasah's in Pakistan or Afghanistan as that would stand out too much. I am not saying that they are bad but I can say that they are a person of interest............
These guys learn and adapt to try to blend in. Shoot they know that running around in the US with rags on your head and a long beard with a bad 7-11 accent will get you secondary in the line. So they cut them off, drink alcohol and dress like the locals to fit in. Hummmmmm ever heard of any one dong that?
A lawsuit has been filed by the Thomas More Law Center (TMLC) in response to police action against Acts 17 Apologetics members at the 2010 Dearborn, Michigan International Arab American Festival. The press release from the TMLC:
February 22, 2011
Sharia in the U.S.A.: Christians Jailed for Preaching to Muslims--Dearborn, MI Officials Sued
People - David Wood arrest (with caption)The Thomas More Law Center (TMLC) announced today that the City of Dearborn, its Mayor, John B. O’Reilly, its Chief of Police, Ronald Haddad, 17 City police officers, and two executives of the American Arab Chamber of Commerce were named as defendants in a ninety-six page federal civil rights lawsuit filed in the Federal District Court in Detroit this morning.
The lawsuit, brought by TMLC and co-counsel and Sharia law expert, David Yerushalmi, stems from two separate police actions at the June 2010 Dearborn, Michigan Annual International Arab Festival.
Richard Thompson, TMLC President and Chief Counsel, commented, “Muslims dominate the political and law enforcement process in Dearborn. It seems that police were more interested in placating the Mayor and Muslims than obeying our Constitution. Sharia law makes it a crime to preach the Gospel to Muslims. This is a classic example of stealth Jihad being waged right here in America. And it should be a wake-up call for all patriotic Americans.”
The first incident occurred on June 18, when police jailed four Christian missionaries when they witnessed Dr. Nabeel Qureshi, a Muslim convert to Christianity, peaceably discussing his Christian faith with Muslim youths. The other three, David Wood, Paul Rezkalla, and Negeen Mayel, were arrested along with Qureshi for allegedly “breaching the peace.” The Christians were led away in handcuffs by police to the applause and cheers of Muslim onlookers who just witnessed a victory of Sharia law over the Christians.
Watch Video of Arrest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikVpC7kBSK8)
The second incident occurred on June 20, as two missionaries, Rezkalla and Josh Hogg, stood on the public sidewalk handing out the Gospel of John to passersby willing to take them. The Christians were there for approximately 5 minutes when eight City police officers descended upon them, seized them, and brought them to the police command trailer located inside the festival where the Christians were admonished, photographed, and ordered to stop their peaceful religious activity.
Watch Video of Police Seizure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17P5ckxYPZ4)
The police assaults and arrests of the Christians, captured on video, caused a national furor over the lawless tactics of the City’s police department.
Dearborn is considered home to the largest Muslim population in America. As a result, it is evident that City officials, including the Mayor, engaged in this unconstitutional official action solely to please this significant voting bloc and to submit to its will.
The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Acts 17 Apologetics, Dr. Nabeel Qureshi, David Wood, Paul Rezkalla, Negeen Mayel and Josh Hogg.
Read the Law Center’s Federal Complaint here (http://www.thomasmore.org/downloads/sb_thomasmore/Complaint--Acts17vDearborn--Filed.pdf)
Robert Muise, TMLC’s Senior Trial Counsel who is handling the matter, stated, “While the videos of the police violating the fundamental constitutional rights of our clients are utterly shocking, it is perhaps even more shocking that City officials, including the Mayor, would engage in a propaganda campaign to smear the good reputation of these Christians even after they were acquitted by a jury of the bogus criminal charges. All of this is strong evidence of the fact that Sharia is negatively influencing the City and its officials.”
Link (http://www.thomasmore.org/qry/page.taf?id=19&_function=detail&sbtblct_uid1=887&_nc=88ec193a415c1159beb9816188e35d86)
The City of Dearborn has agreed to a settlement of the lawsuit filed on behalf of Acts 17 Apologetics.
Detroit, Michigan (May 6, 2013) — After more than two years of intense motion practice and discovery, the City of Dearborn has agreed to enter into a settlement that includes a public apology for arresting several Christian missionaries who were peacefully preaching to Muslims at the Dearborn Arab International Festival in 2010...
Source (http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2013/05/city-of-dearborn-apologizes-for.html)