View Full Version : Soldiers Arrest Honduran President
...Least Honduras has a Supreme Court with cojones. One domino down. Heads-up, Chavez...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529326,00.html
...Our President chimes in to recognize "actors".
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/28/obama-calls-order-military-arrests-honduran-president/
Team Sergeant
06-28-2009, 11:23
Looks like the military acted as they should have and arrested President Mel Zelaya, no one is above the law, (unless you're Ted kennedy) not even presidents.
Now I know why the Community Organizer is "deeply concerned"......
"I am deeply concerned by reports coming out of Honduras regarding the detention and expulsion of President Mel Zelaya," Obama said in a statement.
Zelaya was detained shortly before voting was to begin on a constitutional referendum the president had insisted on holding even though the Supreme Court ruled it illegal and everyone from the military to Congress and members of his own party opposed it.
Kyobanim
06-28-2009, 12:32
The Supreme Court said it supported the military action, which it said was aimed at defending the constitution.
I guess the 1 should be concerned.
Team Sergeant
06-28-2009, 13:10
And now we know why the idiot was arrested!
Great job Honduran Army!
Why should the Community Organizer be "deeply concerned", seems appropriate action was taken stopping a soon to be dictator.
Attempt the same in this country and see what happens...
TS
"President Manuel Zelaya had tried to hold a vote to change the constitution to let him run again, a move deemed illegal by the Supreme Court, Congress and the country's military."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/28/obama-calls-order-military-arrests-honduran-president/
Utah Bob
06-28-2009, 14:35
He said Sunday he will not recognize any government instituted by the military, and will serve out his term, which ends in January 2009.
Be interesting to see how he pulls that off.:munchin
Utah Bob
06-28-2009, 14:38
"We call on all parties in Honduras to respect the constitutional order and the rule of law, to reaffirm their democratic vocation, and to commit themselves to resolve political disputes peacefully and through dialogue. Honduras must embrace the very principles of democracy we reaffirmed at the OAS meeting it hosted less than one month ago," said Clinton.
Sounds to me like that's exactly what they did.
Here is a good overview of the events
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html
"Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government."
Seems to me to be pretty clear who stands for the run of law and who would trample it under jackboots. Seems to me that the Pres and Clinton are out shopping for jackboots.
rubberneck
06-29-2009, 15:40
I guess the 1 should be concerned.
The One said that Zelaya is still the president of Honduras. I getting frustrated with every international crisis being met with tepid indifference from this administration. Either they don't really care or are so affraid of being equated with Bush that their default setting is inaction.
The Reaper
06-29-2009, 15:41
Here is a good overview of the events
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html
"Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government."
Seems to me to be pretty clear who stands for the run of law and who would trample it under jackboots. Seems to me that the Pres and Clinton are out shopping for jackboots.
Great to know that we are in such esteemed company.:rolleyes:
TR
The One said that Zelaya is still the president of Honduras.
And here I thought we didn't interfere in the business of other countries. (except Israel, of course)
Lucky for the rest of the world, the current President of the US isn't the boss of them.
Utah Bob
06-29-2009, 17:44
Yup, "Tepid Indifference", A great motto for this administration. Need to translate it into Latin.
Yup, "Tepid Indifference", A great motto for this administration. Need to translate it into Latin.
By your command.
Tepidus Indifferens
Reuters Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:26pm EDT - Zelaya, in office since 2006, was overthrown in a dawn coup on Sunday after he angered the judiciary, Congress and the army by seeking constitutional changes that would allow presidents to seek re-election beyond a four-year term.
The Honduran Congress named an interim president, Roberto Micheletti, and the country's Supreme Court said it had ordered the army to remove Zelaya.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE55S5J220090629?sp=true
Are these two branches of government, Supreme Court and Congress, not part of the checks and balances.
The "O" administration knew it was coming too.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said he did not believe Obama had spoken to Zelaya since the ouster.
He said the administration had worked in recent days to try to prevent the coup from happening, and "our goal now is on restoring democratic order in Honduras."
I think our nations founding fathers likely may have appreciated the action by the Honduran Supreme Court and Congress.
I don't like how this is being portrayed as a coup d'état.
It's not.
The Supreme Court acted with support from the Congress.
The Army didn't rise up on their own to plant a General as a national figurehead.
The Congress posted an interim President until the next elections in six months.
This is the way government is supposed to work.
There are reports of violent protests. (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.ca89d3f58e893946b30a0c025ffa242 c.c41&show_article=1 )
Not at all unexpected, and only "injuries" being reported.
No deaths.
It could very well turn into a coup depending on who gets involved.
POTUS missed another opportunity to further our national interests overseas by condemning the legal authority.
He must have been too busy posing for pictures to attend Foreign Relations 101.
ZonieDiver
06-30-2009, 07:33
I don't like how this is being portrayed as a coup d'état.
It's not.
The Supreme Court acted with support from the Congress.
The Army didn't rise up on their own to plant a General as a national figurehead.
The Congress posted an interim President until the next elections in six months.
This is the way government is supposed to work.
There are reports of violent protests. (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.ca89d3f58e893946b30a0c025ffa242 c.c41&show_article=1 )
Not at all unexpected, and only "injuries" being reported.
No deaths.
It could very well turn into a coup depending on who gets involved.
POTUS missed another opportunity to further our national interests overseas by condemning the legal authority.
He must have been too busy posing for pictures to attend Foreign Relations 101.
And the "interim president" was a member of congress from Zelaya's own political party - who did not support Zelaya's intended actions, which are specifically banned by the Honduran constitution (parts of which are NOT to be amended or altered inany way).
I'm so glad our president is in agreement with Castro and Chavez. Maybe we could score more good old boy points, with both of them, if we used AF1 to fly him back into country?
cornelyj
06-30-2009, 09:12
I am in South East Mexico now and people hate Castro and Chavez just as much as any warm blooded American. Just lately the Policia have been seen a bit more readily on the streets for some reason........all toting the 20rd mag in the M-4....
Another funny note is that Mexicans like MJ alot more than most americans, it is alll over the TV and local news.
Another funny note is that Mexicans like MJ alot more than most americans, it is alll over the TV and local news.
Probably because most of the 2nd and 3rd world countries still think its 1987. :D
rubberneck
06-30-2009, 09:54
What bothers me the most is that our President doesn't seem to notice that the President of Honduras violated their own constitution and then refused to acknowledge the authority of the other two branches of government when called on it. Even worse is he directed the head of the military to carry out the referendum, then fired him when he refused to violate the constitution and refused to reinstate him when ordered to do so.
There is nothing "illegal" or illicit about this "coup". In fact I believe the Honduran military acted completely appropriately in this case moving to protect their democracy from a chief executive who had no regard for his nations constitution. There is something so American about what happened that I cannot believe that the President of the United States would make such a stupid public statement.
From the apologists at the Pravda on the Hudson and 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue...:mad:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
In a Coup in Honduras, Ghosts of Past U.S. Policies
Helene Cooper and Marc Lacey, NYT, 29 Jun 2009
President Obama on Monday strongly condemned the ouster of Honduras’s president as an illegal coup that set a “terrible precedent” for the region, as the country’s new government defied international calls to return the toppled president to power and clashed with thousands of protesters.
“We do not want to go back to a dark past,” Mr. Obama said, in which military coups override elections. “We always want to stand with democracy,” he added.
The crisis in Honduras, where members of the country’s military abruptly awakened President Manuel Zelaya on Sunday and forced him out of the country in his bedclothes, is pitting Mr. Obama against the ghosts of past American foreign policy in Latin America.
The United States has a history of backing rival political factions and instigating coups in the region, and administration officials have found themselves on the defensive in recent days, dismissing repeated allegations by President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela that the C.I.A. may have had a hand in the president’s removal.
(cont'd) http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/world/americas/30honduras.html?ref=world
greenberetTFS
06-30-2009, 11:51
What bothers me the most is that our President doesn't seem to notice that the President of Honduras violated their own constitution and then refused to acknowledge the authority of the other two branches of government when called on it. Even worse is he directed the head of the military to carry out the referendum, then fired him when he refused to violate the constitution and refused to reinstate him when ordered to do so.
There is nothing "illegal" or illicit about this "coup". In fact I believe the Honduran military acted completely appropriately in this case moving to protect their democracy from a chief executive who had no regard for his nations constitution. There is something so American about what happened that I cannot believe that the President of the United States would make such a stupid public statement.
R,
R has some very good points here,I agree with his assessment completely........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Utah Bob
06-30-2009, 13:53
What bothers me the most is that our President doesn't seem to notice that the President of Honduras violated their own constitution and then refused to acknowledge the authority of the other two branches of government when called on it. Even worse is he directed the head of the military to carry out the referendum, then fired him when he refused to violate the constitution and refused to reinstate him when ordered to do so.
There is nothing "illegal" or illicit about this "coup". In fact I believe the Honduran military acted completely appropriately in this case moving to protect their democracy from a chief executive who had no regard for his nations constitution. There is something so American about what happened that I cannot believe that the President of the United States would make such a stupid public statement.
Bingo!
I guess Obama would call us kicking the Brits out of the country illegal too. We should probably apologize for that. Oh, and Clinton's impeachment, and every SCOTUS ruling that goes against the executive branch, and so on and so on.
He has a very interesting view of democracy and the Constitutional process.
Very interesting.
So if Hugo Chavez actually sent in troops to "quell" this coup to restore his friend back into office, would Obama be outraged at that and condemn it? Or would he side with Chavez and Castro, and look the other way?
So if Hugo Chavez actually sent in troops to "quell" this coup to restore his friend back into office, would Obama be outraged at that and condemn it? Or would he side with Chavez and Castro, and look the other way?
I think the world has decided to look the other way.
The UN general assembly unanimously passed a resolution backing Zeleya:
(http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9954GDO0&show_article=1)
The UN pretty much gave the Central/South/Caribbean Communists free reign to wage UW and an insurgency there.
Once again we see a clear case of how the MSM distorts the news to give a twist to the story that is not true.
We who look behind the curtin see the truth but the sheepeople will be pounding the drum for something to be done to get the "true president" his country back.
Oh, and he says he just wants to serve out his term and not run for reelection? Just how stupid does he think the world is? I quess he does know.
bailaviborita
07-01-2009, 06:49
This reminds me of discussions I've had with SF'ers on the part of our oath that says "enemies.... domestic." We take an oath to the Constitution, so theoretically we could be ordered to arrest a sitting president as well one day- if the Supreme Court found him to be engaged in illegal activities against the Constitution and the Congress did so as well- I'm not sure how that would play out (how the chain of orders would flow), but I've heard the argument that it is possible.
On the other hand I've heard that our system precludes this from happening for 2 reasons: we only take orders from the President (there's no way for the SC to order us to do something and no way for the Congress to do so either) and we have other methods in place to control the president.
So, I guess my question is- what if this happened here? What if a President decided to ammend the Constitution against the rulings of the SC and the votes of the Congress and invited China to send in ballots for a "non-binding referendum"? What if that President then ordered the CJCS to handle logistics for the referendum and the SC and Congress ordered the CJCS to NOT handle the logistics? What if the CJSC was then fired and the President had a bunch of supporters from MoveOn.org and PETA raid a warehouse where the ballots were being impounded? And then the SC and Congress voted and ordered the Pentagon to arrest the President?
My other question is- are there other examples wherein the Army could be reasonably expected to defend the Constitution against domestic enemies? NORTHCOM has been wrestling with just such an issue lately.
My .02: U.S. is hoping that Zelaya will go back, be reinstated, then impeached and properly gotten rid of- if that is the will of the Congress/people/SC- as opposed to the military doing it- mainly because of the history of C and SA and American involvement. What will be interesting to see happen are these possibilities:
1- he goes back and gets arrested by military
2- Chavez, et al try to act militarily if he isn't reinstated
3- he isn't allowed back in
4- he gets killed after going back
5- he somehow turns Honduras into Venezuela-type "dict-a-mocracy"
To expand on the link that Pete S provided: LINK (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090701/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_us_honduras;_ylt=ArPopO3T48pI4h12UjEJz12zvtEF;_ ylu=X3oDMTM0aWJwMTI5BGFzc2V0Ay9hcC8yMDA5MDcwMS9hcF 9vbl9nb19jYV9zdF9wZS91c191c19ob25kdXJhcwRjcG9zAzEE cG9zAzEEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNvYXNnaXZlcz MtZGE-)
WASHINGTON – Honduran coup leaders have three days to restore deposed President Manuel Zelaya to power, the Organization of American States said Wednesday, before Honduras risks being suspended from the group.
OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza delivered what he called "an ultimatum" as OAS talks regarding the crisis dragged into the early-morning hours. The talks began Tuesday afternoon.
In a sharply worded resolution, the OAS said it vehemently condemned the coup and "the arbitrary detention and expulsion" of Zelaya.
The coup, the resolution said, has produced an "unconstitutional alteration of the democratic order." The envoys demanded Zelaya's immediate and safe return to power.
Calling Zelaya's overthrow an "old-fashioned coup," Insulza said: "We need to show clearly that military coups will not be accepted. We thought we were in an era when military coups were no longer possible in this hemisphere."
Zelaya, who was ousted in a coup Sunday, planned to return to Honduras on Thursday, accompanied by Insulza, the presidents of Argentina and Ecuador and the head of the U.N. General Assembly, and seek restoration of his authority. Wednesday morning, however, he said that trip would be delayed until the weekend.
Roberto Micheletti, named by Honduras' Congress as the new president, said Tuesday that Zelaya could be met with an arrest warrant if he returned.
Zelaya met Tuesday night with envoys to the OAS to discuss what Argentina's foreign minister called an urgent and dangerous situation in Honduras.
Argentine Foreign Minister Jorge Taiana and other Western Hemisphere ambassadors waited for 3 1/2 hours as Zelaya made his way from New York, where earlier Tuesday the U.N. General Assembly denounced the military coup that drove him from power Sunday. They demanded his immediate return to office.
Taiana, who presided over the special session of the 34-nation assembly, said if the diplomatic approach does not prevail, "we have to take the decision to suspend Honduras in its rights and duties in this organization."
When Zelaya arrived at the OAS building on Constitution Avenue, within blocks of the White House, he met first with Insulza. Zelaya has called the coup the work of "a small group of usurpers" who carried out "an act of aggression attacking the democratic will of the people."
Albert Rambin, the OAS' assistant secretary-general, said Micheletti intended to send a Honduran delegation to the OAS, but it would not be accepted. Insulza, asked if he would meet with such a delegation, said: "I do not plan to. I do not intend to."
The U.N. adopted a resolution calling on all 192 U.N. member states not to recognize any government in Honduras other than Zelaya's.
At the White House, press secretary Robert Gibbs said there are no plans to recall the U.S. ambassador to Honduras.
The United States said it saw no acceptable solution to Zelaya's ouster other than returning him to power. State Department spokesman Ian Kelly told reporters that the U.S. was still reviewing whether to cut off aid to the Central American nation.
This was my favorite part, "The coup, the resolution said, has produced an 'unconstitutional alteration of the democratic order.' The envoys demanded Zelaya's immediate and safe return to power."
What about Zelaya's proposed unconstitutional alteration? Guess that little gem will be/is being overlooked.
So, I guess my question is- what if this happened here? What if a President decided to ammend the Constitution against the rulings of the SC and the votes of the Congress and invited China to send in ballots for a "non-binding referendum"? What if that President then ordered the CJCS to handle logistics for the referendum and the SC and Congress ordered the CJCS to NOT handle the logistics? What if the CJSC was then fired and the President had a bunch of supporters from MoveOn.org and PETA raid a warehouse where the ballots were being impounded? And then the SC and Congress voted and ordered the Pentagon to arrest the President?
If that did come to pass, wouldn't the judicial system be able to enforce their decision by sending in a federal agency to arrest the President?
The armed forces may still be caught in a tug-o-war depending on the decisions of the higher echelons of military command.
They would either have to break the rules and disobey a direct order or follow a Presidential order and risk starting a civil war.
If the President did wish to retain control he would need to replace many military commanders with those who would undoubtedly do his bidding. Which still doesn't ensure that those they command would go along with it.
A "Republican Guard" type unit would be needed from the Presidents point of view.
(No comparisons to the USMC needed. :D)
I'm sure someone, probably from one of the military academies, has written a paper on this.
Team Sergeant
07-01-2009, 08:42
If that did come to pass, wouldn't the judicial system be able to enforce their decision by sending in a federal agency to arrest the President?
The armed forces may still be caught in a tug-o-war depending on the decisions of the higher echelons of military command.
They would either have to break the rules and disobey a direct order or follow a Presidential order and risk starting a civil war.
If the President did wish to retain control he would need to replace many military commanders with those who would undoubtedly do his bidding. Which still doesn't ensure that those they command would go along with it.
A "Republican Guard" type unit would be needed from the Presidents point of view.
(No comparisons to the USMC needed. :D)
I'm sure someone, probably from one of the military academies, has written a paper on this.
LOL, what "federal" agency is going to arrest the president ? Anyone attempting to affect this arrest will have to go through the "secret service" first...... The military would be a good choice as they could easily end a fight as fast as it started.
Honduras’s president arrest went without bloodshed, good for them. I just wish their Congress or courts would have issued the order to remove him first. Either way they have removed a dictator in the making.
A civil war here? Surely you jest, please tell me who's going to "fight" who?
Bordercop
07-01-2009, 09:36
The link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090630/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_drug_allegations
BOGOTA – The regime that ousted Manuel Zelaya in Honduras claimed Tuesday that the deposed president allowed tons of cocaine to be flown into the Central American country on its way to the United States.
"Every night, three or four Venezuelan-registered planes land without the permission of appropriate authorities and bring thousands of pounds ... and packages of money that are the fruit of drug trafficking," its foreign minister, Enrique Ortez, told CNN en Espanol.
"We have proof of all of this. Neighboring governments have it. The DEA has it," he added.
U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration spokesman Rusty Payne in Washington said he could neither confirm nor deny a DEA investigation.
Zelaya was traveling from New York to Washington and could not immediately be reached to respond to the allegations.
Honduras and other Central American nations have become major transshipment points in recent years for Colombian cocaine, particularly as Mexico's government cracks down on cartels.
The drugs arrive in Honduras on non-commercial aircraft from Venezuela and increasingly in speedboats from Colombia, according to the Key West, Florida-based Joint Interagency Task Force-South, which coordinates drug interdiction in region.
In its most recent report on the illicit narcotics trade, the U.S. State Department said in February of Honduras that "official corruption continues to be an impediment to effective law enforcement and there are press reports of drug trafficking and associated criminal activity among current and former government and military officials."
The report did not name names.
Drug-related violence appears to be up in Honduras.
Homicides surged 25 percent from some 4,400 in 2007 to more than 7,000 in 2008 while more than 1,600 people were killed execution-style, suggesting drug gang involvement, according to the Central American Violence Observatory.
In October, Zelaya proposed legalizing drug use as a way of reducing the violence, and doubling the country's police force, which reached 13,500 last year, up from 7,000 in 2005, according to the State Department report.
I'm sure it's a coincidence that the planes originate in Venezuela...:D
Perge Sed Caute