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Warrior-Mentor
06-27-2009, 13:40
Germany has misread Islam
By Christopher Caldwell
June 26 2009

When Wolfgang Schäuble convoked a multi-year “Islam Conference” in 2006 to ease relations between German society and its Muslim minority, the interior minister made a statement – “Islam is a part of Germany” – that was viewed as a groundbreaking and generous concession.

Today it looks more like a statement of the obvious. At the final session of the conference on Thursday, the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees (BAMF) released a study on “Muslim Life in Germany”. It found that there are vastly more Muslims in Germany than most specialists and pundits had assumed. Where most estimates held the Muslim population at around 3m, the more comprehensive BAMF study places it around 4m, and possibly as high as 4.3m. That means Muslims make up not 4 per cent of the population, but 6 per cent.

Does this matter? Of course it does. The new numbers are grist to the mill of those who say the authorities have not been straight with them about the scope of immigration. More important, the size of a community affects a country’s options for integrating it. The bigger it is, the harder it is.

Against this, the BAMF study offers one basic reason for optimism: diversity. We should think not of a monolith of millions of like-minded newcomers but of a mosaic of communities, 10,000 here, 10,000 there. If Germany’s Muslims cannot agree among themselves, then how, in the end, can they develop a loyalty or allegiance to anything other than the German state? The multi-facetedness of German Muslim life is an implicit rebuttal of the sense that Muslims are “taking over”.

But there is a problem. Relative to that of other immigrant countries, Muslim life in Germany is not diverse. Almost two-thirds of German Muslims (2.6m) are of Turkish descent. No similarly preponderant national-origin or linguistic group exists among, say, Sweden’s or Italy’s immigrants. A third of Germany’s Muslims live in one state, North Rhine-Westphalia, and 98 per cent live in the former West German Länder.

What is more, Germany’s immigrants of Muslim background are religious in a way that natives are not. According to the BAMF study, 87 per cent describe themselves as either very religious or rather religious; 81 per cent obey Islamic dietary laws and 31 per cent of women wear the headscarf. Only 4 per cent describe themselves as not religious at all.

No Muslim communities diverge much from this religiosity, though the report draws comfort from the fact that Iranians (70 per cent believers) are not quite so religious. Muslims have certain shared values they can be expected to pursue – and are entitled to pursue – in the public sphere. A lot of important political questions today, from gay marriage to sexual education, revolve around how deeply religious principles ought to inform public law. How diverse, politically speaking, will German Muslims be?

While Mr Schäuble’s Islam Conference can be applauded as a gesture of welcome, its focus on the diversity of Muslim communities is beset with contradictions. If Islam in Germany is as diverse as the BAMF report says, then why is a big national initiative the right way to deal with it? And what is the desired outcome?

A conclave such as the Islam conference tends to elevate the invitees to semi-official status as community representatives. This gives them a strong incentive to forge a “Muslim community” where none existed. The lesson of decades of such conferences from the US civil rights movement is that they make the groups they deal with less diverse.

Necla Kelek, the Turkish-born sociologist and essayist who was a member of the Islam Conference, believes that the failure of immigrants and their descendants to integrate is “becoming the central problem of the entire society”. She cites some astonishing numbers about immigrants’ tendency to marry within their ethnic group. Only 8 per cent of Turkish men who grow up in Germany marry German women and only 3 per cent of Turkish women who grow up in Germany marry German men. In a speech last month, she placed the blame on the Muslim extended family. “What a lot of people here in Germany view as a model for security and mutual care,” she said, “often comes at the price of individual autonomy.” Freedom means freedom to practise Islam.

We should listen very carefully to such descriptions as Ms Kelek’s. A common stereotype about the particular difficulties of assimilating Muslim immigrants is that they come from a repressed culture and have trouble getting used to western freedoms. But that is not it. The Muslim way of life in Germany, Kelek warns, rests on a vision of freedom, different though it is from Germans’. Fifteen per cent of Muslim parents, the BAMF found, keep their daughters out of sexual-education classes. What should be done about that? The report recommends Überzeugungsarbeit – an effort to convince traditionalists of the error of their ways. Should the state compel families to send their daughters to sex-ed? If so, who has the problem with liberty?

This is why the size of immigrant communities is important. It is not that Muslim efforts to Islamise local institutions, where they occur, are fanatical. It is that they are natural, sensible and in line with western democracy. Most people want a society that reflects their values. The problems with Islam in the west are something more complicated than problems of oppression. They are problems of freedom.


The writer is a senior editor at The Weekly Standard. His book, ‘Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam and the West’, was published in May

www.ft.com/christophercaldwell

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4fa8a4c4-627f-11de-b1c9-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

Warrior-Mentor
06-27-2009, 13:42
"Freedom means freedom to practise Islam."

...which means to not have freedom.

nmap
06-27-2009, 19:31
A most interesting item, Sir.

Is it fair to suppose that Germany accepts the Turkish migration in order to obtain cheap labor? With an aging population and an expensive set of social programs, Germany is faced with a challenging and unpleasant choice. perhaps they have opted for a short term fix that has serious long term problems.

mojaveman
06-27-2009, 22:40
The real problems are going to begin when the Muslims attempt to integrate themselves into East German society. In many areas of the former DDR the 'Ossies' or Easterners have strong reservations against people of color coming and living in their territory. There are small enclaves in the larger cities but the overall Muslim population of East Germany is probably about 2%. Anyone who has lived in the region and knows about the populace would predict an esclation in anti-social activity between the many unemployed and dissaffected young men and any Muslims who might chose to settle there.

I spent nearly three years working and living there.

incarcerated
06-28-2009, 00:43
....It is not that Muslim efforts to Islamise local institutions, where they occur, are fanatical. It is that they are natural, sensible and in line with western democracy....





Those efforts needn’t be fanatical. Suppose these fine German citizens never break the law.

Consider the American example. In the late ‘60s and early ‘70s, the militant Left fomented ‘revolution,’ and gave us, among other things, campus protests; draft card burning; the SLA shootout; the Chicago 7; Angela Davis; Bill Ayers the bomber; and Jane Fonda in Hanoi.
To get out from under the pressure of the FBI and anti-sedition laws, the Left later renounced violence, opting instead to ‘work within the system to change it from within.’ Comrades and revolutionaries who didn’t want to do that were admonished to ‘sit down, shut up, and get out of the way.’ This gave us, among other things, Chicago 7 member Tom Hayden winning elected office; Angela Davis receiving a Professor of the Year award from the Univ of Calif system in the ‘90s; Bill Ayers the educator, author, foundation board member and grant administrator; and Jane Fonda workout videos.

Today, the Left controls the media, education, most local and state gov’t here in Calif, both houses of Congress, the White House, and is working on the Supreme Court. None of this could have been accomplished through violence.
BHO is very much a product of this successful Leftist transition from hard to soft power.

I am beginning to think that BHO intends to disengage us militarily from the Islamic world. What will Islam be able to achieve if the conflict moves from the battlefields of South Central Asia, to the institutions of the West?

Richard
06-28-2009, 06:18
It's a bit more complicated than that, even, as a high percentage of the so-called Turkish population of Germany are Kurds - and separatists - something Germany discovered during GW1 when a large group of PKK (who were Kurds but had been registered as Turks) took over the Turkish embassy for a few days demanding a free Kurdistani state. One issue to be aware of now is the possibility of additional Kurdish separatists from Iran - the Pejaks - in the mix. All this murky national and ethinic identity situation makes the EU members nervous and a major reason they are sloth to grant Turkey membership - in spite of Turkey's staunch NATO membership. Turkey has been a candidate country for EU membership since 1993 - during which time the EU has granted membership to the Baltic states, Poland, Czech and Slovak republics, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Slovenia.

It's complicated. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

alfromcolorado
06-28-2009, 17:18
Good points.

Also, the Turks (and Kurds in growing numbers) have been working there for a long time. Sometime in the 1960s. The Germans let them in to do the jobs they didn't want to do.

Muslims from other countries have come into various European societies for various reasons and some have speculated that they came to prop up the social programs hurting do to an increase in those receiving (folks getting older) and a decrease in native births. But even that is more complicated than some would have us believe.

But the Germans and other European countries are starting to institute a more demanding road to citizenship and asylum seekers getting into the country. And they are pushing more assimilation.

So all these dire consequences that some predict may become more complicated phenomenon and may not follow the path predicted.

I read an article in a German magazine several months ago that talked about how some European native populations are seeing an increase in birth rate while many Muslim communities are seeing decreasing birth rates in the second and third generations.

It's a bit more complicated than that, even, as a high percentage of the so-called Turkish population of Germany are Kurds - and separatists - something Germany discovered during GW1 when a large group of PKK (who were Kurds but had been registered as Turks) took over the Turkish embassy for a few days demanding a free Kurdistani state. One issue to be aware of now is the possibility of additional Kurdish separatists from Iran - the Pejaks - in the mix. All this murky national and ethinic identity situation makes the EU members nervous and a major reason they are sloth to grant Turkey membership - in spite of Turkey's staunch NATO membership. Turkey has been a candidate country for EU membership since 1993 - during which time the EU has granted membership to the Baltic states, Poland, Czech and Slovak republics, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Slovenia.

It's complicated. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Monsoon65
06-28-2009, 20:50
Also, the Turks (and Kurds in growing numbers) have been working there for a long time. Sometime in the 1960s. The Germans let them in to do the jobs they didn't want to do.

I thought that they had been coming to Germany earlier than that; right after the Second World War. They needed the manpower to rebuild things since most of their men were either dead, trying to be released from POW camps, or Siberia.

alfromcolorado
06-28-2009, 22:47
I thought that they had been coming to Germany earlier than that; right after the Second World War. They needed the manpower to rebuild things since most of their men were either dead, trying to be released from POW camps, or Siberia.

I was guesstimating, but a Google says you are quite correct.

I was stationed in Germany in the early 80s (before SF) and then over at Toelz and it seems to me the radicalization of the Turks (still a small element) began later...

Before the Turks kind of stayed off to themselves. There were Gastarbeiter from various other countries, especially Yugoslavia.

A lot has changed...

I say an Arab Muslim family walking along the Isar last summer in Toelz, complete with almost complete body coverage. Hadn't see that before in Toelz.

Sigaba
06-29-2009, 02:02
The German government has been focusing a great deal of effort to limit the influence of the Church of Scientology at least since the early 1990s. Then as now, the concern was that members of that cult were trying to recruit politicians and bureaucrats in order to infiltrate the government. (I said, "Huh?" as a young analyst on vacation in the States said :mad: and ;). Well, as she was a native German speaker, she may have said :mad:;) but it got lost in translation.)

Apparently, these efforts have continued in the post 9/11 era. For example, in 2005, an effort to establish a higher level of governmental transparency hit a bit of a roadblock as observers noted that the proposed legislation would make the government more vulnerable to Scientologists (source is here (http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_PVGSQSN)). More recently, according to a BBC report (here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7133867.stm)), in 2007, the Germans began exploring in earnest ways to ban Scientology by declaring the cult not to be a religion. While this effort was eventually abandoned (source is here (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-11-21-germany-scientology_N.htm)), I wonder if that cult remains a more immediate concern than the growing challenges posed by a growing Muslim population?

Is the thought, to paraphrase Tolkien, the cultist that one hears worse than the Islamicist one fears?

Richard
06-29-2009, 05:37
The FRGs strong stance against Scientology is directly related to the lessons of German history and their post-WW2 wariness of any ideological movement that might appear to threaten their Grundgesetz (current constitution) and to be seeking a position of absolute power. References to the elimination of parasites and antisocials (people who stand in the way of progress towards Scientology's utopian world without insanity, without criminals and without war) evoke uncomfortable parallels with Nazism, and have led to Scientology being viewed as an extremist political movement vs a religious one.

Although the government has ruled otherwise, Scientology is still not generally considered a religious belief by most Germans, and is often characterized as a Sekte (cult or sect) - an exploitative profit-making venture preying on vulnerable minds.

Personally, from what I've read and the discussions I've had with a few who profess their faith in the wannabe* writings of L. Ron Hubbard, I agree with the characterization. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

* L. Ron Hubbard's false military service claims are well known - go to this link and scroll down to his name. http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1065.htm

mojaveman
06-29-2009, 09:27
The Germans are pretty adamant about their dislike of Scientology. Ten years ago when I applied for a residency permit to work there the clerk in the Auslanderbehorde asked me if I was a member of that religion. I assumed that she asked me that because I was an American. After I was granted the permit and then went to work for a private company teaching English business communications the manager made me sign a document stating that I was not a member of nor did I support the ideas of The Church of Scientology. I thought that the whole affair was kind of amusing. Could you imagine something like that happening here?