View Full Version : Sikhs Challenge U.S. Army's Ban on Turbans, Beards
Interesting times. We are conducting a very big experiment with our nation. I wonder how it will turn out.
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LINK (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526240,00.html)
NEW YORK — Military service is in Capt. Kamaljit Singh Kalsi's blood.
His father and grandfather were part of India's Air Force. His great-grandfather served in the army in India under the British. So when U.S. Army recruiters talked to him during his first year of medical school, he readily signed up.
But his plans to go on active duty in July are now on hold. An Army policy from the 1980s that regulates the wearing of religious items would mean he would need to shave his beard and remove the turban he wears in accordance with his religious precepts.
Kalsi and another Sikh man with the same concerns, Second Lt. Tejdeep Singh Rattan, are the centerpieces of an advocacy campaign launched by the Sikh Coalition as it tries to persuade the Army to let them serve without sacrificing their articles of faith.
"I'm an American, there's no reason why I can't serve," Kalsi, 32, said.
The Army has a long-standing interest in how its members carry themselves, with policies that ban exotic hair colors, long fingernails or certain colors of lipstick. Army officials declined to comment on the reasoning behind its policy that would force the Sikh men to give up their religious displays. Sikhs who were active-duty military when the policy was adopted were allowed to continue serving without shaving their beards or removing their turbans.
The Pentagon and other military institutions wouldn't comment. The Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group, was unfamiliar with the policy's origins.
As the Sikh diaspora has spread across the world, the issue of turbans and beards on Sikhs in uniform has come up in a number of places. In New York City, for example, Sikh traffic officers took successful legal action to force the city to allow them to wear turbans and beards.
The Sikh community is hopeful it will win the policy appeal; in an April 29 letter to the Sikh Coalition, the director of the Army's Human Resources Policy Directorate said senior leadership was aware of the issue and was gathering information to make a decision. Toni Delancey, a spokeswoman for Army personnel, said the appeals are under review.
Sikh Coalition executive director Amardeep Singh said he hopes that not only are Kalsi and Rattan allowed to serve, but that the rule will be changed for all turbaned and bearded Sikhs who would want to enlist.
"Our country's military needs to reflect what America is right now," he said. "It's a diverse country, it's a country that puts forth for the rest of the world the values of liberty, particularly religious liberty."
Allowing Sikhs to serve with beard and turban "will send a very strong message to the rest of the world that we are who we say we are."
The Sikh faith requires adherents to follow certain rules, among them that hair is not to be cut and for men, the wearing of a turban. Both Kalsi, an emergency room doctor, and Rattan, a dental surgeon, say they were following those rules when they were recruited and never had any problems or were told they wouldn't be able to serve with their beards or turbans.
Both said they raised the issue over the years and were reassured, and that it wasn't until the end of last year when they were told they would not be allowed to serve as they were.
The idea that he would have to choose between his country and his faith is hard for Rattan. "I'm offering my life, but I'm not willing to sacrifice my religious beliefs," he said.
Singh said it would be in the military's best interest to lets Sikhs serve. The community has a long tradition of military service, both in India, where most of the faith's adherents are, as well as in the countries where Sikhs have made their homes, like Canada and the United Kingdom.
"As part of our religious heritage, we're taught that we have an obligation to actively serve and protect the communities in which we live," he said.
In Canada, regulations for the armed forces allow Sikhs to keep their turbans and beards, and even determine what colors the different military branches can wear. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police allows turbans as well.
The British Army allows Sikhs to generally keep their articles of faith. For Sikhs who serve as civilian police officers, The British Police Sikh Association is pushing for development of bulletproof turbans. That would allow Sikhs to be part of firearms units, since safety helmets don't fit over them.
Sikhs have a long history with the U.S. military, serving in World Wars I and II, the Korean and Vietnam wars, and in the Persian Gulf.
One of them is Army Col. Gopal Khalsa, who is retiring in November after more than three decades in uniform, all of those with a turban and beard.
His distinctive appearance has required some conversation and explanation at times, but it's never been a problem for him, or gotten in the way of carrying out his duties or wearing his military equipment.
"Of course there's a lot of looks, but once people get to know you and you're doing the job, that falls by the wayside," Khalsa said.
He thought a rule change would be a good idea, saying the presence of Sikh soldiers would be an asset in places where the United States is currently carrying out military operations, like Afghanistan.
"The Army would be gaining successful, useful soldiers," he said.
Kalsi hopes he can be one of those soldiers, and serve his country as generations of his family have done.
"That's what we connect with, that's part of our heritage," he said. "It links us to our past and our present and hopefully the future."
In the 60s & 70s, when the draft was still in effect, there were many wearing the turban and beard. Some still wore them after the adoption of the "All Volunteer Army", however eventually they were phased out.
Now the uniform doesn't allow for the wearing of either a beard or a turban because of hygene issues and health reasons. The Army requires uniformity. It would be a mistake to allow either (or both) to be worn.
The Reaper
06-14-2009, 20:59
Send them to the CS chamber with the mask. Keep them in there till they get a good seal.
TR
Utah Bob
06-14-2009, 21:36
In the 60s & 70s, when the draft was still in effect, there were many wearing the turban and beard. Some still wore them after the adoption of the "All Volunteer Army", however eventually they were phased out.
Yup., Seems to me I saw an article in the Stars & Stripes back in 68 or 69.
Send them to the CS chamber with the mask. Keep them in there till they get a good seal.
TR
When I was in Basic, a neighboring company had a Sikh recruit. He wore a turban and had an "abbreviated" beard. I'm not sure how that worked in the gas chambers but, since we all had to take the masks off in each room, he probably fared as well as the rest. I imagine that the thinking was that the NVA and VC weren't really gassing anyone. Plus...he might have ended up a Chaplain's assistant. ;)
Pat
greenberetTFS
06-15-2009, 02:01
Send them to the CS chamber with the mask. Keep them in there till they get a good seal.
TR
I don't know about you TR,I sometimes think you've got a "dark side"within you........:rolleyes::p;)
GB TFS :munchin
Send them to the CS chamber with the mask. Keep them in there till they get a good seal.
I recall seeing a couple of them back when - they went to the chamber like everyone else but they also had some sort of religious deferment regarding MOS selection and employment (like a CO), being assigned a soft-skill MOS and not being assigned to a foreseeable NBC theater (e.g., USAREUR) - don't ever recall seeing any real issues about them as soldiers except for the uniformity and assignment concerns - and then they just weren't around anymore.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
- don't ever recall seeing any real issues about them as soldiers except for the uniformity and assignment concerns.....
And that is the problem with Big Army. Big Army likes uniformity. Right now the slack cut for religious accomodation is very small.
The Sikhs have a tradition of military service but there are no Sikh Regiments in the US Army.
The problem for the military is it has rules and regulations. Allow one religion a large variation on the regs and it opens the door for everybody else to claim "rights of dress" under their religion - and there are some off the wall religions out there.
In the Australian army Sikh’s have a history of wearing beards and a turban. They wear the headdress as a replacement for the traditional slouch hat. There is a specially listed exception in the Australian Standard Orders of Dress (ASODs).
This exceptional flexibility dates back centuries. The Sikh community has a history of providing brave soldiers. The reason for the Australian exception is because we inherited it from the British.
The British have had a special place for Sikh soldiers ever since the Battle of Saragarhi. Most members of the Commonwealth have this set of exceptions and its never been tied to any push towards political correctness.
Now the uniform doesn't allow for the wearing of either a beard or a turban because of hygene issues and health reasons. The Army requires uniformity. It would be a mistake to allow either (or both) to be worn.
US Army Special Forces, Afghanistan, Beards.
2018commo
06-15-2009, 05:34
We had a Sikh in our company for a long time, he was an out standing troop (18E). he even came back to the company from the ING for the " Great Dissapointment" (Desert Storm). It was always a hassle when he went to Bragg, for schools; I seem to recall COL Rowe had to interceed on his behalf once.
I would eagerly serve with him or any other Sikh again.
The Reaper
06-15-2009, 08:43
US Army Special Forces, Afghanistan, Beards.
Exception to policy with the appropriate relaxed grooming standards letter. I believe that changed after it was deemed to have been abused, which in reality, probably took about 30 seconds.
Come to Bragg and let me know how many beards you find on soldiers here.
If one group of people can have beards in garrison, then they all should be able to. The Army's rationale for being clean shaven was always supposed to be about hygiene and the ability to effectively wear protective gear. If that is no longer true, then the regs should be changed for all. Maybe we should let everyone wear any uniform they want as well. Naah, then we would be the Air Force.
No one is questioning the Sikh's fighting abilities. Just their ability and desire to wear the required uniform and comply with the regs.
Hope that turban fits under a MICH, with headset.:D
TR
I'm sure this guy is honest and truley wants to serve.
However, once you change/bend the rules for one you have to do it for all so it is just not worth it.
Muslims and their beards, druids and their whatever, Jewish skullcaps, Hindu this, Shinto that....
Comply with regs or don't come.
Come to Bragg and let me know how many beards you find on soldiers here.
TR
I saw a few the last time I was there, but I believe they were all on female NCOs in the in the Eighty Twice!! :eek:
The Reaper
06-15-2009, 11:55
I saw a few the last time I was there, but I believe they were all on female NCOs in the in the Eighty Twice!! :eek:
No doubt.
Used to be a chick in the 44th Med who had a skinhead haircut, kept a hard pack of Marlboros in her rolled up t-shirt sleeve, and rode a Sporty. Of course, she only had a mustache, not a beard. Don't ask, don't tell.:D
TR
Utah Bob
06-15-2009, 12:15
Ghurkas, that's what we need! WE have no dang Colonial Troops.
Maybe we could use Samoans. OD grass skirts?
Or hillbillies. Isn't West Virginia a colony?
Food for thought...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
American Sikhs Run Billion-Dollar Security Firm
John Burnett, NPR, 13 Jun 2009
In the high desert town of Espanola, N.M., you'll find a community of American Sikhs — converts to the 500-year-old Sikh religion from India. With a gold-domed temple as a backdrop, men and women live quiet lives of meditation, yoga and vegetarianism.
They also run a big business.
Next to the elaborate temple is a cluster of drab modular buildings that constitute the headquarters of Akal Security. The reach of this Sikh-founded and Sikh-managed company is huge.
In most cities across the country, for example, the guards who run the metal detectors at the doors of federal courthouses work for Akal Security.
In just the past three years, Akal and its subsidiary, Coastal International Security, earned more than $1 billion in federal contracts. In addition to screening people at federal courthouses, Akal also guards immigration detention centers, NASA facilities, federal buildings in Washington, D.C., and embassies under construction from Ecuador to Iraq.
Origins Of Akal
"Akal means undying or deathless," says Daya Singh Khalsa, president of Akal Security. "It was a battle cry for Sikhs."
Like most Sikh men, Singh Khalsa wears a turban, and on religious occasions he carries a kirpan, or sacred sword, a symbol of the Sikh warrior-saint tradition of defending the defenseless. To this day, this tradition is at the philosophical heart of Akal Security.
"We feel very good about the role we play to keep thousands or hundreds of thousands of people safe when they visit federal facilities," Singh Khalsa says.
Yet, as president of a major security company that employs 10,000 guards, Singh Khalsa has to take pains to keep religion and business separate. "We're here to run a business," he insists. And because federal contracts prohibit guards from wearing headgear, you won't see any Sikhs manning the metal detectors.
Akal is a private for-profit company. When asked where all the profits go, Singh Khalsa says they're reinvested in the company; individual Sikhs who work for Akal make generous donations to Sikh Dharma, the nonprofit religious organization.
The Sikh Dharma Of New Mexico
Espanola is the largest community of American Sikhs, composed of about 150 families. It was founded by Yogi Bhajan, a Sikh yoga master who came to the U.S. from India in 1968 to teach kundalini yoga. By the time he died in 2004, Yogi Bhajan was recognized as the founder and spiritual leader of what are now loosely called "Western Sikhs," to distinguish them from their Indian counterparts.
Akal president Singh Khalsa was born Daniel Cohn, the son of a New York department store executive; he grew up in the Connecticut suburbs, graduated with an English degree from Amherst College, and drifted to the then-new Sikh colony in New Mexico to pursue his interest in yoga and meditation.
All Western Sikhs have the last name Khalsa, which means "purity."
The life of a devout Sikh is rigorous: up at 4 a.m. for a cold shower, then 2.5 hours of prayers and meditation. They do not drink alcohol or eat meat. And no one gets a haircut — ever. Their hair is coiled under their turbans.
Rules that prohibit Sikhs from joining American law enforcement because they don't cut their hair may be softening. Last year, the Espanola Police Department hired its first bearded, turbaned policeman — Officer Khalsa — though he has since moved on.
Five years after the death of their spiritual leader, the Sikh community in New Mexico appears to be healthy. Some families have moved away; others have come. Akal has lost some business, but there is always next year. And in an alcove inside the gold-domed temple, there is someone — day and night — reading the sacred songs of the Sikhs.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104869550
RichL025
06-15-2009, 14:32
To the prev poster who mentioned about jewish soldiers wearing yarmulkes... it's ALREADY allowed. Although, to be fair, wearing one of those does not interfere with proper wear of regulation headgear, helmet or pro mask...
OTOH, while I agree the Sikh's turbans WILL interfere with all of those, I say give them a damn exception. One problem with this country today is not enough warriors ("Army of One", "the Me generation" etc), and if a natural warrior ethnic group wants to join, but has a genuine religious issue preventing them, I say go ahead and make the accomodation.
Yes, yes, you're going to get the wise-ass privates who suddenly decide to "convert" and want to wear beards, but they can be handled the same way as a private who suddenly discovers he's a consciencious objector when it becomes suddenly convenient.
The Reaper
06-15-2009, 14:53
Hey, here is a thought...
If you want to be a warrior in the US Army, you get an exception from your religion to permit you to conform with our religion, as described in AR 670-1.
If not, we will call you back when they get to our gates.
TR
I do not think there are enough Sikhs willing to volunteer to make this worth the hassle. Personally, I would rather see a "Hispanic Legion" where we recruit Latin Americans with previous military/police experience for 5yrs in Combat Arms & then offer them citizenship afterwards. I know we would get more volunteers than we would have positions.
x/S
As a Shaolin Warrior-Priest with a shaven face and head, I am able to get a "good seal" and still take the pebble from your hand.
I do not think there are enough Sikhs willing to volunteer to make this worth the hassle.
Ultimately, I think this is the very reason why it won't change.
Demographics and how it impacts manpower resources is what will drive the military towards amending regulations. Countries like India have no choice but to allow variation in its uniform since a bulk of its recruits come from the Sikh community. Couple that with colonial tradition of various units coming from different communities, accommodation is provided. To note, many Sikhs do not wear the full sized turban in the field. They will have their hair wrapped in "bun" covered by a cloth the size of a large handkerchief. Example (http://twining.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/04ue1.jpg)
Besides the politics, its the reason why women and minorities were integrated into the military and gays won't be accommodated (unless the hand is forced by politics). Minorities and women constitute a large population from which manpower can be absorbed, gays or smaller communities like Sikhs aren't in significant enough numbers.
In any case, I believe there are Sikhs serving in other capacities that have beards (medical staff). There are also Sikhs that don't follow religious tradition and serve as well.
RichL025
06-15-2009, 19:33
As a Shaolin Warrior-Priest with a shaven face and head, I am able to get a "good seal" and still take the pebble from your hand.
Just be careful in those closets with that rope, I hear that's murder on Shaolin priests.....
RichL025
06-15-2009, 19:34
I gues I look at it in a simple way. Are they American or are they a Sikh? You can only serve one master. If you try to be a sikh in the US Army are your loyalties split? I admit I know very little of their culture so I may be off base here, but the same goes for any other group.
Are you an American or a Christian? Are you only serving one master?
Are your loyalties split as a Christian in the army?
Just be careful in those closets with that rope, I hear that's murder on Shaolin priests.....
The guy you're talking about would have been fine if he hadn't choked there at the last second. :D
I gues I look at it in a simple way. Are they American or are they a Sikh? You can only serve one master. If you try to be a sikh in the US Army are your loyalties split? I admit I know very little of their culture so I may be off base here, but the same goes for any other group.
A diversity counselor came to where we work at. He was endorsed by the Navy higher ups. In any case, we thought it was going to be another dog and pony show with someone mentioning how we must be all PC.
The first thing this elderly gentleman, who was Puerto Rican in background said was," I want the whole room to say - Thank you white American males." Very counter intuitive from our expectations and threw us a major curve ball. He explained further that while many American white males were racist in the past, it was also the American white male demographic that decided racism was wrong, and gave many minorities a chance to break out of the group think. His first opportunity came when a white man recognized his talents and gave him an academic opportunity. He also dived into the fact that demographic shifts, the end of the draft changed how manpower was obtained (the most important resource of the military, as cold as it sounds) and that dictates who is allowed to participate or not from a volume standpoint. Women are 50% of the population and other minorities such as blacks in enough numbers to contribute. WWII and Korea brought about a change in how blacks were treated in the military, end of the draft meant more women in the military to fulfill non-combat needs, etc. These paralleled cultural shifts as well, but the military's goal is to defeat the enemy. With that primary task in hand, what potential populations can serve [enter need here]?
In a numbers game, there just aren't enough Sikhs to change the military's cost/benefit analysis. Say if 20% of our population were Sikhs, you'd see different policies. In India's population of a billion, Sikhs are a small group BUT they volunteer at a VERY high rate thereby providing significant source of manpower. Each country's military policy is different as it serves (in a democracy) different and unique populations. If number crunchers show a benefit in having Sikhs in the military due to their solid history of serving Indian, British, and other countries, regs will change. But I find that unlikely due to the population being relatively small. We're talking 2 million people of south asian decent in the United States out of 300 million. And from those 2 million, Sikhs are just a slice of the pie.
I may be wrong as well. Just my 2 cents...
This whole thing is stupid.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Period.
The needs of the many are for order and discipline. What next, allowing bozo the clown wigs?
Just like a lot of other issues... personal liberties and freedom take a backseat to the regulations of the Army.
The whole, PC, "unity/strength through our differences" Orweillian double-speak is bullshit.
This guy needs to go away and be thankful he's not being prosecuted.
I don't know, what do Sikhs worship? You take that away and it's just another hat, right?
Stetsons and buckles for Air Cav, different colored Berets, Tanker Boots-I went to a couple schools at Bragg with a SEAL with a beard back in the '80's-we don't all wear the same garb.
I ate chow with a Sikh at Mackall one time, and he had an outstanding attitude. As far as fighting, as with the Ghurkas, I've never heard anything negative about 'em.
Maybe they could work something out-a Sikh unit or the like, similar to the Ghurka outfits. This Country could use every good fighter it can assimilate into the ranks right now, IMO.
I don't know, what do Sikhs worship? .....
The Sihk religion was founded by Guru Nanak in the 15th Century.
It is a monolithic religion believing in one God, but a God more in line with the universe and not a single person type God.
I would guess, as with most strict religions, the hair and turban are a sign of one's devotion (that ain't the right word, I know) to the teachings of that religion.
Edited to paste in the 5 Ks
"...Baptised Sikhs are bound to wear the Five Ks (in Punjabi known as pañj kakkē or pañj kakār), or articles of faith, at all times. The tenth guru, Gobind Singh, ordered these Five Ks to be worn so that a Sikh could actively use them to make a difference to their own and to others' spirituality. The 5 items are: kēs (uncut hair), kaṅghā (small comb), kaṛā (circular iron bracelet), kirpān (ceremonial short sword), and kacchā (special undergarment). The Five Ks have both practical and symbolic purposes...."
The Sihk religion was founded by Guru Nanak in the 15th Century.
It is a monolithic religion believing in one God, but a God more in line with the universe and not a single person type God.
I would guess, as with most strict religions, the hair and turban are a sign of one's devotion (that ain't the right word, I know) to the teachings of that religion.
Edited to paste in the 5 Ks
"...Baptised Sikhs are bound to wear the Five Ks (in Punjabi known as pañj kakkē or pañj kakār), or articles of faith, at all times. The tenth guru, Gobind Singh, ordered these Five Ks to be worn so that a Sikh could actively use them to make a difference to their own and to others' spirituality. The 5 items are: kēs (uncut hair), kaṅghā (small comb), kaṛā (circular iron bracelet), kirpān (ceremonial short sword), and kacchā (special undergarment). The Five Ks have both practical and symbolic purposes...."
Good info. Thanks.
".....Baptised Sikhs are bound to wear the Five Ks (in Punjabi known as pañj kakkē or pañj kakār), or articles of faith, at all times. The tenth guru, Gobind Singh, ordered these Five Ks to be worn so that a Sikh could actively use them to make a difference to their own and to others' spirituality. The 5 items are: kēs (uncut hair), kaṅghā (small comb), kaṛā (circular iron bracelet), kirpān (ceremonial short sword), and kacchā (special undergarment). The Five Ks have both practical and symbolic purposes....."
Rereading the 5 Ks I don't see where the Turban falls into them.
Could the Turban be a cultural habit from the region the religion developed in and not a religious one?
".....Baptised Sikhs are bound to wear the Five Ks (in Punjabi known as pañj kakkē or pañj kakār), or articles of faith, at all times. The tenth guru, Gobind Singh, ordered these Five Ks to be worn so that a Sikh could actively use them to make a difference to their own and to others' spirituality. The 5 items are: kēs (uncut hair), kaṅghā (small comb), kaṛā (circular iron bracelet), kirpān (ceremonial short sword), and kacchā (special undergarment). The Five Ks have both practical and symbolic purposes....."
Rereading the 5 Ks I don't see where the Turban falls into them.
Could the Turban be a cultural habit from the region the religion developed in and not a religious one?
Let's just hope the turban doesn't double as a kaccha. ;)
Utah Bob
06-16-2009, 14:24
I don't know, what do Sikhs worship? You take that away and it's just another hat, right?
Stetsons and buckles for Air Cav, different colored Berets, Tanker Boots-I went to a couple schools at Bragg with a SEAL with a beard back in the '80's-we don't all wear the same garb.
I ate chow with a Sikh at Mackall one time, and he had an outstanding attitude. As far as fighting, as with the Ghurkas, I've never heard anything negative about 'em.
Maybe they could work something out-a Sikh unit or the like, similar to the Ghurka outfits. This Country could use every good fighter it can assimilate into the ranks right now, IMO.
Difference is, those are units not individuals. Like the Brit regimental dress. You won't, and shouldn't, see a pair of tanker boots or a Stetson in a leg infantry company.
'Course the Marines do have those Corpsmen in sailor suits in their ranks.
But those guys can wear anything they want as far as I'm concerned.:D
For those with inquiring minds...;)
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-warriors/the-sikh-regiment.html
Richard's $.02 :munchin
A hard opertion for Sikhs and India.
http://www.sikh.com.au/blue/
Could the Turban be a cultural habit from the region the religion developed in and not a religious one?
It is not required, they only thing that is required is to have your head covered at all times.
Turban in the Rehit (Code)
Amritdhari Sikhs (those who have been baptized in the Amrit ceremony) are supposed to have their heads covered when in public.
The turban tells others that we are different. By having a distinct appearance, Sikhs become accountable for their actions. Our distinct Sikh appearance not only makes us think more often about our conduct and its reflection upon a wider society, it also makes us reflect upon our own ideals and how they reflect the teachings of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib.
The turban is there to remind us of our connection to God. It frames us as devotees of God and gives us a way to live in gratitude for this gift of recognition. This responsibility of being recognized is also a way of keeping ourselves from self-destructive habits, such as smoking, drinking, etc.
Source: http://fateh.sikhnet.com/s/WhyTurbans
A hard opertion for Sikhs and India.
http://www.sikh.com.au/blue/
This set in motion events that resulted in Indira Gandhi, India's Prime Minister's assassination by Sikh bodyguards, which were followed by bloody riots with Hindus retaliating against Sikhs. The Khalistan movement folks (who wanted a separate Sikh homeland) were also responsible for the bombing of Air India 182.
A time line of events.... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism/history/history_2.shtml). Despite all the violence, majority of the Sikhs remained loyal to India.
I understand what people are saying about uniformity in the military but perhaps this is less of a problem than some people are making it out to be.
The argument being made by some is that the United States Army and its equipment is incompatible with the regulations of the Sikh faith. If this was the case; why then does every Commonwealth Nation and a number of others not find it impossible to provide regulatory exemptions? There does not seem to be a valid equipment based reason to say this wont work, since it many countries, it does.
There is also the argument that this would open a door to a whole lot of weird religious beliefs. Do the Wiccans have a near impeccable history of exceptionally brave service? Sikhism is one of the world’s major religions, I hardly think that this can be categorised as the first in a torrent of many other crazy demands. The simple fact is that where there is an exception granted its introduction was never met with claims it would be the beginning of a PC tidal wave. Its worth remembering that this exception in most cases goes back over a century and so far no wiccans have attempted to ride the wave.
There has also been an argument that there are not enough Sikhs in the United States to warrant the exception. Australia has an exception and there are even less Sikhs there than in the US.
The last argument is that Sikhs should put the army first and religion second. This seems quite unrealistic since I as a Christian have an employed Chaplin in my unit, access to a military funeral, religious holiday leave and many other services made available to me. Would a Jew/Muslim have to eat pork, a Hindu beef. The real argument is; why should the army regulations force a person to make that choice, whatever feelings people might have about what other peoples priorities are it seems silly to force the issue at the point of enlistment.
Perhaps the problems associated with this problem have been a little overhyped. The army has a right to jealously guard its traditions. I in my country have been sorry to see so many go. There are many other changes that should be challenged (and from the trenches any approaching man looks pretty suspect); but this is not one of them.
This is my opinion and I may be wrong
The Reaper
06-17-2009, 06:43
I think that if you had a tour or two of active service, perhaps including some combat time, your opinion would carry more weight, cadet.
By the way, we opted out of the Commonwealth 233 years ago, so that we would not have to follow their rules and regulations.
I do not know how the other nations' services accomodate the Sikhs. Frankly, I do not see how you would get 20 years of hair into a MICH helmet, with a headset. I am certain that you cannot get a protective mask to seal with a beard. These are protective equipment that all soldiers are required to be able to wear. I suppose if all you want to do is parade, it would be okay. BTW, the Wiccans do not require any special uniforms, and are required to adhere to the same grooming standards and uniform requirements as every other soldier. Hence the key phrase "reasonable accomodation".
All I know is that with an Army of half a million, changing the rules so that a platoon's worth of soldiers can enlist who have to look differently and be treated specially is not worth setting the precedent. Some armies have unions, permit floggings, and welcome sodomy as well. Until the UN takes over, that doesn't mean we have to do so. Our society here is filled with groups of people who would take that and run with it. Most of us here have lived through the great moustache wars, and some have been in the relaxed grooming standards skirmish. Those are relatively trivial things that caused a lot of heartburn and believe it or not, ended quite a few careers.
Service is about subordinating yourself to a greater cause. If you want to serve, then you agree to serve under the conditions everyone else is serving under. Your tonsorial preferences and desires are irrelevant to me. Cowboy up, get a haircut, shave, and soldier on.
Can you define "uniform" for me, cadet?
TR
I".
Service is about subordinating yourself to a greater cause. If you want to serve, then you agree to serve under the conditions everyone else is serving under. Your tonsorial preferences and desires are irrelevant to me. Cowboy up, get a haircut, shave, and soldier on.
TR
Punto.
OcdtADF,
Are there Sikhs in the ADF? I never saw any amongst the lads I associated with in the ASASR, 1CDO, and RAN CDT1. :confused:
Richard
Richard
In response to your question, there are some but not many. The exception is simply one we took on from the British who have a much longer history of it. It would only be a handful at best.
TR
Your point is very good in relation to equipment. Other nations have faced the prospect of changing their field gear for Sikhs; I read about one totally ludicrous foray into bulletproof turbans somewhere. The issue has really not be settled. For the moment the regulations don’t in large part allow Sikh’s to serve in the areas where the gear you mentioned would need to be worn. The British police for instance don’t allow Sikhs to serve in firearms units, precisely because no Hemet can be worn over their turbans.
TR you are also right about your nation being allowed to adopt whatever rules it wants. The United States is the world only superpower and no other contender remotely capable of submitting a challenge is worthy of the role. It would be wrong however not to recognise the value Sikhs are in translator and public relations roles.
Simply saying that because some units aren’t a possibility therefore they should not be allowed to serve in the articles of faith is perhaps too much of a blanket statement.
Yes they are a small number of people; their enlistment potential is not really that great in terms of raw numbers. They do have an operational value in the regions in which both our nations are engaged.
It seems to me our positions are not that far apart.
It would be wrong however not to recognise the value Sikhs are in translator and public relations roles.
If we need those services, we can rent (contract) them, much like the large numbers of interpreters we're currently employing in Iraq and Afghanistan.
TommyGun
06-17-2009, 13:02
We have rules and Regs, you want to join and serve, step up and fall in, but work within the regs...goes for soldiers who want to come out of the closet too
TG
...good order and discipline is just such a damned nuisance.
...good order and discipline is just such a damned nuisance.
And not just for the military. ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Florida City to Workers: Wear Underwear, Deodorant
AP, 16 Jun 2009
A Florida city is cleaning up with a new dress code that requires city workers to wear underwear and use deodorant.
The city council in Brooksville north of Tampa recently approved a dress code that instructs employees to observe "strict personal hygiene."
It also prohibits exposed underwear, clothing with foul language, "sexually provocative" clothes and piercings anywhere except the ears.
Repeat offenders can be fired.
The city council approved the dress code 4-1 as part of a wider effort to update existing policies and ordinances.
The one vote in opposition came from Mayor Joe Bernadini. He said the underwear edict "takes away freedom of choice."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_re_us/us_odd_underwear_required
greenberetTFS
06-18-2009, 11:28
If the Military gives into this one,well than I just give up! ......:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
kachingchingpow
06-18-2009, 13:14
+1 on 2018commo's comments regarding the Sikh in our company. Damn good NCO, and consummate professional.
Interesting link:
http://americanreality.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/two-men-say-the-army-wont-let-them-practice-their-religion/
Utah Bob
06-18-2009, 14:01
And not just for the military. ;)
Florida City to Workers: Wear Underwear, Deodorant
AP, 16 Jun 2009
A Florida city is cleaning up with a new dress code that requires city workers to wear underwear and use deodorant.
The city council in Brooksville north of Tampa recently approved a dress code that instructs employees to observe "strict personal hygiene."
It also prohibits exposed underwear, clothing with foul language, "sexually provocative" clothes and piercings anywhere except the ears.
Repeat offenders can be fired.
The city council approved the dress code 4-1 as part of a wider effort to update existing policies and ordinances.
The one vote in opposition came from Mayor Joe Bernadini. He said the underwear edict "takes away freedom of choice."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/...rwear_required
Richard's $.02 :munchin
If you'd ever been to Brooksville, you'd understand.
I have and I do.:D
Army Allows a Sikh Doctor to Serve Wearing a Turban
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/24/nyregion/24sikh.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion
Story update - The door is open.
god gawd....it's like a kid. Give them an inch....and they'll take a mile. What are we gonna do next, halt battle drills/contact so folks can face east and pray???? in frickencredible
Sikhs are not Muslims.
As far as I know there is no similar dress requirements for all Muslims. Except for the requirement for women to dress moderatly and a few sect's own rules - nothing for everyone.
The deal about not eating and drinking during Ramadan is also not cut and dried. If it's a military requirement to get the job done they can eat and drink during the day. Now if they don't want to do it they will...............
Not a problem - keep 'em in MOPP-4 whenever they're on duty.
Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin
Surgicalcric
10-25-2009, 07:47
I often wonder why people join something that has known standards, then bitch and moan about those standards.
The doc, regardless of how good he is, isnt good enough to open this pandora's box for... Whats next, open gays?
Go Devil
10-25-2009, 09:13
I remember pork being removed from the DFAC at Mackall for some guests that were living in the training area.
rltipton
10-25-2009, 09:35
Whats next, open gays?
You know that one is coming. It's on the horizon already.
As for the hats, there were physicians in Army wearing turbans in uniform in the 80s and 90s. I doubt they asked permission, but apparently nobody gave them grief about it. The dude that gave me my SF physical at WRAMC in 1990 was wearing one. There was a female full bird colonel that wore one all around Washington DC while in dress greens all the time when I was stationed there in 88-90. I don't know how or why they got away with it. It pissed me off to no end.
On the same token, nobody ever says anything to Jews for wearing those little caps, and they wear them all the time. Granted, they are a lot less conspicuous. Should that matter? I don't think so. They shouldn't be wearing that shit in uniform either.
First it's hats for religious purposes, next it's going to be nose rings to denote sexual preference. The Army screwed up big time by giving in even the slightest bit because it sets a precedence and gets the ball rolling for who-knows-what to float to the surface next.
Army allows Sikh to keep beard, turban, uncut hair
The Army will allow Kamaljit Singh Kalsi, left, to keep his beard and turban. Tejdeep Singh Rattan is awaiting a decision.
The U.S Army has granted a member of a religious minority permission to keep his turban, beard and uncut hair while he serves in the military, the Pentagon and a group representing him said.
Capt. Kamaljit Singh Kalsi, a doctor, is a Sikh, a faith that calls on its adherents not to shave or cut their hair.
Kalsi filed a request in the spring for an accommodation to follow the principles of his religion. This month the Army granted his request, the Sikh Coalition told CNN. The Pentagon public affairs office later confirmed that Kalsi would be allowed to keep his turban, beard and uncut hair.
The civil rights group hailed the move as "a major step toward ending a 23-year-old policy that excludes Sikhs from service."
Kalsi said he was "overjoyed."
"Like the many Sikhs who fought before me, I know I will serve America with honor and excellence," he said in a written statement.
But the Sikh Coalition provided what it said was a copy of the letter from the Army.
Maj. Gen. Gina Farrisee said in the letter that Kalsi's "beard, uncut hair, and turban will be neat and well maintained at all times."
She said her ruling applies only to Kalsi's case, and is not a change of Army policy.
"This accommodation is based solely on the facts and circumstances of your case," the letter said. "This accommodation does not constitute a blanket accommodation for any other individual."
She said the exception could be revoked "due to changed conditions."
Her letter was dated October 22 and released by the Sikh Coalition the next day.
Kalsi is not the only Sikh asking permission to keep his hair, beard and turban while serving in the Army. Capt. Tejdeep Singh Rattan, a dentist, applied at the same time as Kalsi. His case has been deferred until he receives the results of his dental board examinations, the Sikh Coalition told CNN.
Both were scheduled to report for active duty in July.
The Sikh Coalition said Kalsi and Rattan had been assured when they were recruited to join the Army's Health Professions Scholarship that their unshorn hair and turbans "would not be a problem."
"Both are concluding their training and are slated to begin active duty in July 2009. However, the U.S. Army is now disputing their ability to serve with their Sikh identity intact," the Sikh Coalition said in an April 14 letter addressed to Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
"It doesn't make sense to me, especially in these hard times," Kalsi told CNN at the time. "The military is hurting for professionals. They need doctors, they need nurses."
Amardeep Singh, the head of the Sikh Coalition, told CNN in the spring that the issue affects observant Sikhs, not those Sikh-Americans who entered the military after removing their turbans and shaving their beards and hair.
The issue is important for the roughly 500,000-strong American Sikh community, Singh said.
Sikhs faced hostility after the September 11, 2001, attacks, when people associated them with al Qaeda terrorists because their turbans and beards resembled the militants' appearance. The Sikh religion was founded in India.
"The perception is still there," Singh said. "We're sort of still feeling it."
He said surveys chronicle the problems Sikhs face. Among them is one conducted in the Queens borough of New York City recently in which children reported being on the receiving end of verbal and physical abuse, he said.
"These kids are being harassed in New York. It's Queens, the most diverse county in the United States. If this is happening in Queens, it's happening in other parts of the country."
So, he said, the opportunity to serve in the U.S. Army sends the opposite message -- "that we are part and parcel of the fabric of this country.
The Reaper
10-29-2009, 18:30
If a Sikh can serve without shaving or cutting his hair, why can't other soldiers?
Can he still wear a helmet and protective mask?
Are they special?
TR
I am surprised that a man smart enough to be a doctor was dumb enough to believe everything his recruiter said.......
This set in motion events that resulted in Indira Gandhi, India's Prime Minister's assassination by Sikh bodyguards, which were followed by bloody riots with Hindus retaliating against Sikhs. The Khalistan movement folks (who wanted a separate Sikh homeland) were also responsible for the bombing of Air India 182.
A time line of events.... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism/history/history_2.shtml). Despite all the violence, majority of the Sikhs remained loyal to India.
Sikhs make up a mere 3% of the population of india now and I believe make up 30% of the armed forces (unsure if this statistic was for officers or a general figure for the entire armed forces).
The vast majority of Sikhs emigrated to Canada, UK, and the United States and the population isn't what it was in the past.
If a Sikh can serve without shaving or cutting his hair, why can't other soldiers?
Can he still wear a helmet and protective mask?
Are they special?
TR
Times have changed and most Sikhs don't keep the long hair or wear a turban though there are that still adhere to the traditions of the past. That number shrinks each decade. Same with the beard as well.
It's just not practical these day's to keep the long hair and beard and if we go back to the mid 1700's when it was stated/demanded by the last guru that all Sikhs shall not cut their hair, shave their beards, etc and wear the metal band on their arms, it was a period of time when most men (if not all) had long hair and beards anyways, it it mughals or hindu's or buddist.
But some people just go by what's written even today and they refuse to budge on those principles.
Originally Posted by OcdtADF View Post
It would be wrong however not to recognise the value Sikhs are in translator and public relations roles.
Sikhs speak punjab which is probably more relevant in Pakistan. Other than that, they wouldn't really be any more useful than a native of a particular country who could be hired on a contract basis to do translations perhaps.
mojaveman
11-11-2010, 21:35
I just saw that in the news again today. Friggin' guy was standing in formation in front of a drill sergeant wearing a black turban with a blue flash on the front of it, beard and all.
The Army is going to hell. Do you suppose the other services will allow Sikhs to serve? How about a long haired bearded man peering out from the cockpit of an F-15?
Sorry, but the standards that should be emplced are slipping.
What do you suppose the Roman soldiers were saying when they began to see fur wearing Germanic or Celtic warriors serving alongside them?
"Ugh Marcus, look at those savages!"
http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/03/25/36339-sikh-soldiers-allowed-to-serve-retain-their-articles-of-faith/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba9jqcZMoyA
http://www.infoaboutsikhs.com/sikh_immigrants.htm
This is definitely not the first time Sikhs have served in the US army. I don't know why everyone is acting like it is.
Forget the Sikhs, get ready for the muslim trans-gender burping a burka.
Sikhs make up a mere 3% of the population of india now and I believe make up 30% of the armed forces (unsure if this statistic was for officers or a general figure for the entire armed forces).
The vast majority of Sikhs emigrated to Canada, UK, and the United States and the population isn't what it was in the past.
Your last statement is not correct. Yes, there is a very large population that has emigrated to Canada, UK, USA, BUT majority of Sikhs are still in India. Even 3% of India's population is still 30 Million people. For a volutneer Army such as India's that is a heatlhy demographic to recruit from.
Only a wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh), but the referenced data comes off of Census information.
India 19,215,730[2]
United States 670,000 [3]
Canada 278,415 [4]
United Kingdom 389,000 [5]
Edit: I was suprised to see the USA with 670K Sikhs, outnumber those from Canada and Britain. I guess it may seem more apparent in Canada and Britain with smaller overall populations that they have more Sikhs.
Like I mentioned before, women were allowed a greater role in the military because demographics and needs of a volunteer military demanded greater input. If numbers are on the side of having Sikhs or gays or [enter minority group here] serve, there is a long history of republics making the accomdation including ours. It's an available demographics vs. military needs balancing act the number crunchers constantly have to do. My original prediction was that since the numbers of Sikhs weren't high, the accomodation wouldn't be made. But I don't know what projections or numbers the military is looking at either.
Forget the Sikhs, get ready for the muslim trans-gender burping a burka.
At some point the Army decided they wanted a 26 year old masters in industrial engineering who has native Hindi and Punjabi skills and wants to serve. Life isn't fair but how does this impact unit cohesion when others have to adhere to regulations?
FWIW, there is a large Sikh community in the agricultural regions north of Sacramento, I worked with some of them as a student painter during summer breaks in school. They were tough, cheerful, hardworking, and very honest folks. It is truly a martial religion, and they took great pride in their warrior ancestors. They had this Sikh knife kata they would practice IIRC I asked how long they trained, and the answer was something like " Until Muslim aggression stops." No love lost there. They were hard to forget.
EX-Gold Falcon
11-17-2010, 20:38
http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/03/25/36339-sikh-soldiers-allowed-to-serve-retain-their-articles-of-faith/
"During my several conversations with Captain Tejdeep Singh Rattan I have found him to be professional, enthusiastic and dedicated to his profession - as an Army Dental Corps officer and a Soldier," said Maj. Gen. (Dr.) Russell Czerw, commanding general of Fort Sam Houston and the Army Medical Department Center & School and also Chief of the Army Dental Corps. "I have no doubt of his passion for taking care of Soldiers and commend him for his desire to serve his country."
"I have the utmost confidence that Rattan, or someone like him, is going to go on to do great things, no matter where they go," Lopez said.
"The only struggle is that when some people get their first look, they are going to stereotype him. That is the good thing about having Rattan out there, to show that this is a proud individual, he knows what he is doing and he's doing a phenomenal job. I'd go to battle with him."
A two star recomendation speaks volumes.
This is definitely not the first time Sikhs have served in the US army. I don't know why everyone is acting like it is.
x2.
In less then ten years (maybe even five years) from now this entire debate will seem rather trivial. Personally all I see in this photo is an American standing by his fellow Americans who wish to serve their country.
Travis
EX-Gold Falcon
11-17-2010, 20:48
FWIW, there is a large Sikh community in the agricultural regions north of Sacramento, I worked with some of them as a student painter during summer breaks in school. They were tough, cheerful, hardworking, and very honest folks. It is truly a martial religion, and they took great pride in their warrior ancestors. They had this Sikh knife kata they would practice IIRC I asked how long they trained, and the answer was something like " Until Muslim aggression stops." No love lost there. They were hard to forget.
I know two sisters in my town (both Sikh) and I once watched them perform their knife katas as well.
I pity the fool who brings a pistol to a Sikh knifefight. You will probable bleed out long before they do....
Travis
An exception for religion?
Who gets to pick the religions that get an exception?
I'm sure someday a member of the Church of Body Modification will want to claim special status for their religious requirements.
Ah, In case you thought I was kidding
http://uscobm.com/mission-statement/
".............We honor all forms of body modification and those who choose to practice body modification for any reason..................."
My dentist at Ft. Sill in 1981 was an observant Sikh. He wore a small tight turban and covered his beard with a surgical net. I received excellent dental care from him for three years. He WAS non-deployable because of his beard and never got promoted past Major. He finished out his career at Sill.
Why not gather all big Army Sikhs into whatever size unit that they could field - battery, battalion, brigage combat team, etc. and let them train as a cohort unit? Then unleash them somewhere along the Afghan-Pakistan border. They might be useful. They may even have cognate language skills that would cross over into Urdu or Pashtun dialects. I dunno. You could outfit them with whatever gas mask that the Israelis use - there are several observant Jews with full beards in the IDF that have no problem with their NBC gear.
mojaveman
11-17-2010, 22:01
An exception for religion?
Who gets to pick the religions that get an exception?
I'm sure someday a member of the Church of Body Modification will want to claim special status for their religious requirements.
Ah, In case you thought I was kidding
http://uscobm.com/mission-statement/
".............We honor all forms of body modification and those who choose to practice body modification for any reason..................."
I was thinking maybe a Hare Krishna complete with colored robe, pony tail on top of a shaved head, and even bells and tambourines.
Nothing personal against the Sikhs, but I just think that they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.
In addition to knives they like guns too. There are two Sikhs brothers who own a liquor store near where I live and they both pack heat.
ScottE88
12-03-2010, 14:31
An exception for religion?
Who gets to pick the religions that get an exception?
I'm sure someday a member of the Church of Body Modification will want to claim special status for their religious requirements.
Ah, In case you thought I was kidding
http://uscobm.com/mission-statement/
".............We honor all forms of body modification and those who choose to practice body modification for any reason..................."
I don't believe many members from the Church of Body Modification would have many qualities that would be deemed beneficial for the Army. I think Sikhs are an exception based on their language skills, and the fact that they've served in the military previously. I personally think it's cool, and the ACU turbans I've seen on google images look pretty bad ass.
I don't believe many members from the Church of Body Modification would have many qualities that would be deemed beneficial for the Army. I think Sikhs are an exception based on their language skills, and the fact that they've served in the military previously. I personally think it's cool, and the ACU turbans I've seen on google images look pretty bad ass.
Sikh chic.
.... I think Sikhs are an exception based on their language skills, and the fact that they've served in the military previously. .......
Ah, not all Sikhs have served in the military. While coming from a warrior type culture those that come to the states become - pretty much Americans.
drymartini66
12-03-2010, 14:39
So much for adhereing to uniform and groomimg standards.
Team Sergeant
12-03-2010, 14:45
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Funny I don't see where one's religious "choice" is mentioned in their oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.
Our "national" tolerance toward "religion" will bend this nation until we break.
Served with a Sikhs on my ODA, white guy who converted.
Beard, long hair, Grp flask looked cool on Turban!
The Reaper
12-03-2010, 14:46
Why can't any other soldier choose his headgear, hair length, and preferred facial hair?
Do we need the dozen or so Sihks will will not serve without following their preferences badly enough to waive the standards all others comply with?
If I am a Rastafarian who wants to serve, will you willingly let me wear my dreads, avoid bathing, and smoke ganja, as is my religious custom?
TR
Served with a Sikhs on my ODA, white guy who converted.
Beard, long hair, Grp flask looked cool on Turban!
If that's the guy that went throught the Q Course in spring of '83 or thereabouts, I met him myself at the old Mackall mess hall.
Incidentally, do they still allow "relaxed grooming standards" for certain missions?
Why can't any other soldier choose his headgear, hair length, and preferred facial hair?
TR
I was thinking the same thing...
The Reaper
12-03-2010, 14:51
Beard, long hair, Grp flask looked cool on Turban!
Your Group had your own flask?
Lucky bastiges!
TR
drymartini66
12-03-2010, 14:53
God I love the PC Army!
Your Group had your own flask?
Lucky bastiges!
TR
Shit, I can't type and drink at the same time. Currently sitting in Starbuck's secretly adding Bushmills to my coffee.
drymartini66
12-03-2010, 14:55
Shit, I can't type and drink at the same time. Currently sitting in Starbuck's secretly adding Bushmills to my coffee.
Ah, a clandestine op.:D
Team Sergeant
12-03-2010, 14:56
If that's the guy that went throught the Q Course in spring of '83 or thereabouts, I met him myself at the old Mackall mess hall.
Incidentally, do they still allow "relaxed grooming standards" for certain missions?
That was my class, Spring of 83.....
I remember he was allowed to wear his towel through out the course. I kept telling the SF cadre my "religion" stated I was to be served beer with my rations/meals. They decided to "insult" my religion and gave me a canteen of cold water instead. I still have issues today as a result.
ScottE88
12-03-2010, 14:58
Ah, not all Sikhs have served in the military. While coming from a warrior type culture those that come to the states become - pretty much Americans.
Thank you for clearing that up. It's funny how the ones who come from other countries into America truly appreciate the American way of life. It seems, from the observation of my peers, that many Naturalized citizens are so used to the benefits of being American, that they take it for granted. It can be compared to a spoiled child, who for christmas, is not satisfied, unless his or her parents give, give, and give. Most people expect to much from their country, which in fact it is our country that should expect action from its children. I respect these men, and men such as you QP's to the full extent, in that they serve when most won't. Much respect. Sorry if I went off topic.
That was my class, Spring of 83.....
I remember he was allowed to wear his towel through out the course. I kept telling the SF cadre my "religion" stated I was to be served beer with my rations/meals. They decided to "insult" my religion and gave me a canteen of cold water instead. I still have issues today as a result.
lol Who wouldn't?
If that's the guy that went throught the Q Course in spring of '83 or thereabouts, I met him myself at the old Mackall mess hall.
Incidentally, do they still allow "relaxed grooming standards" for certain missions?
Blue Flash, 19th Grp?
drymartini66
12-03-2010, 15:01
That was my class, Spring of 83.....
I remember he was allowed to wear his towel through out the course. I kept telling the SF cadre my "religion" stated I was to be served beer with my rations/meals. They decided to "insult" my religion and gave me a canteen of cold water instead. I still have issues today as a result.
I'm a card carrying member of DADD. Drunkards Against Drinking Discrimination.:munchin
Blue Flash, 19th Grp?
All I saw was the burnoose, or whatever it's called.
I'd love to see that guy at the first day of SERE school!:boohoo
Seems Rabbi Stern, an ultra-orthodox jew, sues over the no-beard policy because the Army says "No" to him joining with a beard but in the past two years has said "Yes" to two Sihk officers, one Muslim intern at Walter Reed and the latest enlisted Sihk.
As reported in this week's Army Times.
Well, well, big Army - you have a policy or not? See what happens when you open the door a crack.
And DADT is just getting started.
The Reaper
12-20-2010, 15:30
There you go.
Only a matter of time before someone asks how is it that female soldiers can have long hair, but males can't.
Don't even get me started on the Selective Service System.
Will transgender females have to register, or not?
TR
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/01/michigan-school-district-allows-sikh-students-wear-religious-dagger-school/
A Detroit-area district says it's allowing Sikh students to wear a small, religious dagger to school, MyFoxDetroit.com reports.
The decision by the Plymouth-Canton Community Schools reverses a ban put in place in December after a fourth-grader at a Canton Township elementary school was found with a dull, 3- to 5-inch kirpan.
The kirpan represents a commitment to fight evil in the Sikh tradition. The dagger is a religious symbol that baptized Sikh males are expected to carry.
The principal initially let the boy keep the kirpan, but the school board instituted a ban because of parental concerns and conflicts with the district's rules against bringing weapons to school.
The Detroit Free Press and WXYZ-TV report that under the new guidelines, kirpans meeting certain criteria will be allowed for Sikh students.
The Reaper
02-01-2011, 08:14
Yeah, well, my religion requires me to carry a small concealable firearm on me at all times.
Unloaded of course. :D
TR
Dozer523
02-01-2011, 08:52
I'm a card carrying member of DADD. Drunkards Against Drinking Discrimination.:munchinDAMM here.
Drunks against Mad Mothers.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/01/michigan-school-district-allows-sikh-students-wear-religious-dagger-school/
A Detroit-area district says it's allowing Sikh students to wear a small, religious dagger to school, MyFoxDetroit.com reports.
The decision by the Plymouth-Canton Community Schools reverses a ban put in place in December after a fourth-grader at a Canton Township elementary school was found with a dull, 3- to 5-inch kirpan.
The kirpan represents a commitment to fight evil in the Sikh tradition. The dagger is a religious symbol that baptized Sikh males are expected to carry.
The principal initially let the boy keep the kirpan, but the school board instituted a ban because of parental concerns and conflicts with the district's rules against bringing weapons to school.
The Detroit Free Press and WXYZ-TV report that under the new guidelines, kirpans meeting certain criteria will be allowed for Sikh students.
The carrying of the kirpan is something that was done during a period of time when barbarians roamed free and there were forced conversions and people needed to identify one from the other because everyone had beards, looked alike and worse the same clothes.
The unkept hair, the kirpan, the metal bangle worn on the arm were some of the requirements from the guru's for a sikh but in today's day and age....don't think its neccessary to be carrying daggers into schools.
..........The unkept hair, the kirpan, the metal bangle worn on the arm were some of the requirements from the guru's for a sikh but in today's day and age....don't think its neccessary to be carrying daggers into schools.
From post # 32
"...Baptised Sikhs are bound to wear the Five Ks (in Punjabi known as pañj kakkē or pañj kakār), or articles of faith, at all times. The tenth guru, Gobind Singh, ordered these Five Ks to be worn so that a Sikh could actively use them to make a difference to their own and to others' spirituality. The 5 items are: kēs (uncut hair), kaṅghā (small comb), kaṛā (circular iron bracelet), kirpān (ceremonial short sword), and kacchā (special undergarment). The Five Ks have both practical and symbolic purposes...."
The five K's say nothing about a turban which is what this thread is about. Interesting thing about displaying items of faith. Christians for the most part are told to hide it or go to a Christian school.
So two little boys go to the same school one day, one a Sikh with a kirpan, the other a Christian with a ceremonial short sword. The Christian is arrested and taken to jail while the Sikh is seated for class.
Only in American in a public school.
Note to P-CCS Parents regarding Kirpan
Friday, 28 Jan 2011
In December we informed you of a situation at one of our elementary schools in which a student was found wearing a religious emblem that resembles a small decorative sword, called a kirpan. At the time, we told you that our attorneys were reviewing both state and federal laws, as well as Board policies with regard to the prohibition of weapons or look-a-like weapons in any of its buildings. We said we would explore options that will ensure safety and best protect the rights of all students.
After an extensive review of all laws and policies pertaining to this issue, we have developed an accommodation plan that will address the situation. While our school district is committed to providing a safe learning environment for all of our students, we must also balance the rights of students to express and practice their religion. In light of the strict scrutiny standard applied by Michigan courts in determining whether an individual’s right to freely exercise his or her religion has been violated, the District will amend its blanket restriction against wearing the kirpan in school.
Starting Monday, January 31, 2011, baptized students of the Sikh faith will be allowed to wear the kirpan at school with the following conditions:
1.Any kirpan worn at school should be sewn inside a sheath in such a way that the blade cannot be removed from the sheath.
2.The blade of the kirpan is restricted in length to no more than two and one-fourth inches. This would take the object outside the scope of the Revised School Code’s definition of a knife constituting a dangerous weapon.
3.The blade of the kirpan must be dull.
4.The kirpan should not be worn on the outside of the clothing and should not be visible in any way.
5.It will not be the practice of staff members to conduct random searches for the possession of kirpans. However, students who violate any of the above will be subject to discipline including a prohibition on wearing the kirpan to school in the future.
We have spent the past month working successfully with members of the local Sikh community to address District concerns. School officials are confident that these new administrative guidelines ensure a safe school environment and provide Sikh students the right to exercise their religion freely.
http://www.pccs.k12.mi.us/node/703
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Can he still wear a helmet and protective mask?
Are they special?
TR
Does anyone have experience with IDF soldiers from Israel that are observant Orthodox Jews? I had several as my students at Ft. Sill that had full beards and payess. I assume that they had overcome the issue with protective masks. Can this be done with the current issue mask? I know it would be a tight fit with the M-17 mask.
Deep singh
09-20-2017, 11:40
Hello my name is PV2 Singh who is a practicing Sikh serving in the US Army as an 11Bravo. I apologize if it is not my place to post a reply but I just wanted to state how my experience has been in the Army So far. First I would like to say I personally know Colonal Kalsi as he has helped and mentored me about joining the Army. The gas chamber in his experience and I did myself was apply beard gel and I have gotten a proper seal with just doing that. I also see you can use vasaline as well and tie the beard in a knot and get proper seal. And as far as wearing ACH Kevlar we wear a Patka which is more like a bandana style turban which I wore my whole time in the field and general for work. The traditional turban is only worn during ceremonial or times not working, which I do but never in day to day life as it will not fit under an ACH. I understand how the Army feels towards uniformity but as a Sikh it is my duty to serve my country all I wish is to practice my faith and I promise it will never render me from being the Soldier I can be, in fact I love this country for allowing to practice my faith and serve. In America Sikhs are always targeted with hate crimes because people have no idea about who we are such as our allied forces like Canada, Australia, especially in the United Kingdom because we do not get too practice our faith in the Military until this year of 2017. If we cannot practice our faith as it is a huge part of our history to serve in the Military as it is one of the greatest forms of selfless service people will always assume we are Islamic Radicals or a danger to society. I want to change that perception and show that I am a Sikh and I love this country and so do other Sikhs. Thank you and I again apologize if I offend any Professional Soldiers. God bless America.
Team Sergeant
09-20-2017, 12:36
Hello my name is PV2 Singh who is a practicing Sikh serving in the US Army as an 11Bravo. I apologize if it is not my place to post a reply but I just wanted to state how my experience has been in the Army So far. First I would like to say I personally know Colonal Kalsi as he has helped and mentored me about joining the Army. The gas chamber in his experience and I did myself was apply beard gel and I have gotten a proper seal with just doing that. I also see you can use vasaline as well and tie the beard in a knot and get proper seal. And as far as wearing ACH Kevlar we wear a Patka which is more like a bandana style turban which I wore my whole time in the field and general for work. The traditional turban is only worn during ceremonial or times not working, which I do but never in day to day life as it will not fit under an ACH. I understand how the Army feels towards uniformity but as a Sikh it is my duty to serve my country all I wish is to practice my faith and I promise it will never render me from being the Soldier I can be, in fact I love this country for allowing to practice my faith and serve. In America Sikhs are always targeted with hate crimes because people have no idea about who we are such as our allied forces like Canada, Australia, especially in the United Kingdom because we do not get too practice our faith in the Military until this year of 2017. If we cannot practice our faith as it is a huge part of our history to serve in the Military as it is one of the greatest forms of selfless service people will always assume we are Islamic Radicals or a danger to society. I want to change that perception and show that I am a Sikh and I love this country and so do other Sikhs. Thank you and I again apologize if I offend any Professional Soldiers. God bless America.
Duly noted.
I’ll put your religious beliefs on the top shelf, right up there with jewish rabbi's sucking baby penisis, catholics and their "demon" exorcisms , or a female muslim wearing a niqab in combat. We already have a “kosher” combat meals for that one jew that is in the US military. What if one day I decided I wanted to convert and become a Digambara monk while serving in the military? They live completely naked……. You good with that? I could go on and on all day but I’m sure you get my point.
Tell me PV2 Singh, where do we draw the line on religious practices while serving in the United States military? Do I risk my men to save your life when an unexpected nerve agent attack occurs and you’re choking on your own vomit because you could not get a seal on your mask in time?
To me it really doesn’t matter anymore as the American military will take anyone these days, even those that suffer psychotic breaks can serve in the US military. In fact the US military will cut off your penis and charge the taxpayer for the operation. And then pay for your veterans administration required "support chicken" for the rest of your life.
Enjoy your religion.
miclo18d
09-20-2017, 18:55
Can a Christian wear a cross on the outside of their uniform?
Vaseline for your info will degrade the rubber in the gas mask and I would posit that wearing a gas mask is not about going to the CS chamber in basic, it is when you are in a VX gas attack! WTF are they teaching these kids in the army these days. Oh and BTW pv2 Singh, do you think an enemy with chemical weapons is going to give you fair warning about an impending gas attack so you have the time to put in some beard gel to get your mask a good seal? Good luck with that.
In the Army you are a soldier first and then a Sikh, just like I'm a Christian second. Nobody will stop you from praying to your god as long as you keep sending bullets down range as you do so. I don't claim to know your faith or its tenants, but service in the military is not mandatory, its voluntary. Therefore, you volunteer to follow its reasoning.
You apparently desire to be another victim, as your claims about oppression indicate. I served for 20 years with people of all races, creeds, and colors; they all did their duty and didn't most didn't make it about a social experiment as your generations seems apt to do.
[\RANT OFF]
frostfire
09-20-2017, 21:21
Hello my name is PV2 Singh who is a practicing Sikh serving in the US Army as an 11Bravo. I apologize if it is not my place to post a reply but I just wanted to state how my experience has been in the Army So far. First I would like to say I personally know Colonal Kalsi as he has helped and mentored me about joining the Army. The gas chamber in his experience and I did myself was apply beard gel and I have gotten a proper seal with just doing that. I also see you can use vasaline as well and tie the beard in a knot and get proper seal. And as far as wearing ACH Kevlar we wear a Patka which is more like a bandana style turban which I wore my whole time in the field and general for work. The traditional turban is only worn during ceremonial or times not working, which I do but never in day to day life as it will not fit under an ACH. I understand how the Army feels towards uniformity but as a Sikh it is my duty to serve my country all I wish is to practice my faith and I promise it will never render me from being the Soldier I can be, in fact I love this country for allowing to practice my faith and serve. In America Sikhs are always targeted with hate crimes because people have no idea about who we are such as our allied forces like Canada, Australia, especially in the United Kingdom because we do not get too practice our faith in the Military until this year of 2017. If we cannot practice our faith as it is a huge part of our history to serve in the Military as it is one of the greatest forms of selfless service people will always assume we are Islamic Radicals or a danger to society. I want to change that perception and show that I am a Sikh and I love this country and so do other Sikhs. Thank you and I again apologize if I offend any Professional Soldiers. God bless America.
Deep singh,
I served with COL Kalsi. In fact we went through BOLC together. On the roasting ground of Bullis in July, I heard zero complaints from him. We had tons of heat casualties. He wasn't one. I could only imagine how hot it must me under all that garment.
I concur with TS and miclo18d. I am confident you have the maturity and grit to see their valid argument and pressed on. Watch the documentary about Desmond T Doss, the Conscientious Objector, and the movie, Hacksaw Ridge. The documentary is better than the movie. Demonstrate your love for this country, the US Army, and the men and women to your right and left through Doss's type of selfless intestinal fortitude. COL Kalsi did, and I have nothing but respect for him, even while at the same time disagree with the exception granted.
Thank you for your decision to serve.
Watch the documentary about Desmond T Doss, the Conscientious Objector,
I don't believe Sikhs are COs. He is an 11B.
Pat
frostfire
09-20-2017, 22:26
I don't believe Sikhs are COs. He is an 11B.
Pat
I wasn't emphasizing on the CO, but the fact that Doss requested/required special treatment to serve i.e. cannot touch gun, cannot work on Sunday, etc. He received hell from his superiors and peers alike (justifiably so IMHOO), but in the end the Medal of Honor is a testament to who he was.
I wasn't emphasizing on the CO, but the fact that Doss requested/required special treatment to serve i.e. cannot touch gun, cannot work on Sunday, etc. He received hell from his superiors and peers alike (justifiably so IMHOO), but in the end the Medal of Honor is a testament to who he was.
Gotcha'. I misunderstood your reference. ;)
Pat
Everyone will have an opinion.
To understand why the Sikhs are who they are, one must go. back to the beginning and understand how and why the faith was founded, why they follow the teachings of the holy book and 5K's, the history and loss of the Punjab, their 400 year fight to kick out the mughal invaders, the forced conversions into islam which brought about the formation of the militant Khalsa Sikh 's and their very survival after almost being totally wiped out as a race/people on two occassions (these are referred to as periods of genocide including the destruction of the sikh golden temple and leveling of the city of Amritsar on both occassions) and why the Sikhs were so highly valued as fighters, guards and administrators in the past.
The hair and beard are considered to be an extension of that person and therefore a living thing. To cut it would be offensive in many respects.
Sikhs are in commando and airborne units in the Indian army, tank commanders, Infantry and naval commanders as well as jet fighter pilots in the air force. Some of the best aces of the war's against Pakistan were Sikh pilots.
Everyone has their own idea of what a Sikh is but few realize the Sikh's hv been fighting the muslims for over 400 years and have very distinct attitude to battle and war and dying a good death in battle if it means the women and childtem could live.
Note: I had to edit as my typing is horrendous when using my mobile phone as my fingers are just too big for the screen and size of the keyboard.
Scimitar
09-21-2017, 03:48
I have yet to meet or work with a Sikh who wasn't of good character.
S
hoot72, this thread is not really about Sikhs. It is that the US Military used to have one standard.
But today in the "everybody gets a trophy" military accommodations are being made for some religions.
By making those accommodations the military will be required to accommodate any religion that takes them to court. Well, except Christianity.
craigepo
09-21-2017, 10:03
I was recently reading correspondence between President Washington and some Jewish citizens. The Jews' concerns were for whether they would be able to openly practice their religion in the new United States. Washington allayed their fears, and informed them that our only concern was that a person be a good citizen, and that their religious preferences were each individual's concern alone.
Isn't it fascinating that, over 200 years later, our experiment in liberty is working so well that Sikhs are fighting, not to be citizens, but to be allowed to serve in our all-volunteer military?
I am rather proud of the fact that if an army attacks our battle line, it will be met by a line of defenders with such diverse genealogies. Moreover, this diversity is not the product of the military conscription as seen by conquering Roman armies, but rather by volunteers.
Maybe this Republic is much better than some would have us believe.
Sikhs never had to fight to serve. It's just that they are fighting for special accommodations while serving.
Again for those that have a hard time understanding this thread - it's about special accommodations while serving.
Should special accommodations be made and after a few can the Military draw a line somewhere?
These guys are religious also. http://uscobm.com/
Team Sergeant
09-21-2017, 10:53
Sikhs never had to fight to serve. It's just that they are fighting for special accommodations while serving.
Again for those that have a hard time understanding this thread - it's about special accommodations while serving.
Should special accommodations be made and after a few can the Military draw a line somewhere?
These guys are religious also. http://uscobm.com/
Yeah, funny most don't understand that.
I don't care if you pray to the Goat gods, Beer gods, Tree gods or Tattoo gods, while in uniform I don't want to see or hear it, do it on your own time.
And when your "religious" practices collide with the mission, you are no longer welcome to wear the uniform.
Always loved it when working with moolems in the middle east, when things got a bit difficult for them, it was time to pray.......... :rolleyes:
Deep singh
09-21-2017, 16:35
Duly noted.
I’ll put your religious beliefs on the top shelf, right up there with jewish rabbi's sucking baby penisis, catholics and their "demon" exorcisms , or a female muslim wearing a niqab in combat. We already have a “kosher” combat meals for that one jew that is in the US military. What if one day I decided I wanted to convert and become a Digambara monk while serving in the military? They live completely naked……. You good with that? I could go on and on all day but I’m sure you get my point.
Tell me PV2 Singh, where do we draw the line on religious practices while serving in the United States military? Do I risk my men to save your life when an unexpected nerve agent attack occurs and you’re choking on your own vomit because you could not get a seal on your mask in time?
To me it really doesn’t matter anymore as the American military will take anyone these days, even those that suffer psychotic breaks can serve in the US military. In fact the US military will cut off your penis and charge the taxpayer for the operation. And then pay for your veterans administration required "support chicken" for the rest of your life.
Enjoy your religion.
I apologize for the late response as I have just gotten back from the field and did not have time to respond. I am very sorry that you feel I am lowering the standard and I can understand what you are saying in the sense we should not give preference to certain people. I can say though to answer your question about where do we draw the line in my opinion it should be when it does not interfere with our service in any way shape or form. Digambara monk would seriously render you from doing your job because you need to perform the same way everyone else does, being naked it is impossible to do that.I am being biased because I am a Sikh but at the same time I have always made sure since I have served that my religious garb does not interfere in anyway shape or form me doing my job as an Infantrymen, I also tie my beard everyday so it would not interfere in case of a chemical attack and I need wear a gas mask. I also would like to point out as I'm pretty sure you already know that that Sikhs have served since WW1 in the US Army from MOS's ranging from Physicians, Paratroopers and even a couple in Special Forces. It was not until President Reagan said he wanted uniformity that they changed this policy. I do not believe you could say any of these Soldiers were any less warriors because of their religious Turbans. You can read how 83,oo3 Sikhs served and passed away and another 100,000 have been injured in both World Wars with their Turbans fighting in allied forces, mainly Britain and Canada. I just wish you could understand that as a Sikh it has and will not render me from doing the job. That is the most important thing at the end of the day. Thank you.
Deep singh
09-21-2017, 16:39
Deep singh,
I served with COL Kalsi. In fact we went through BOLC together. On the roasting ground of Bullis in July, I heard zero complaints from him. We had tons of heat casualties. He wasn't one. I could only imagine how hot it must me under all that garment.
I concur with TS and miclo18d. I am confident you have the maturity and grit to see their valid argument and pressed on. Watch the documentary about Desmond T Doss, the Conscientious Objector, and the movie, Hacksaw Ridge. The documentary is better than the movie. Demonstrate your love for this country, the US Army, and the men and women to your right and left through Doss's type of selfless intestinal fortitude. COL Kalsi did, and I have nothing but respect for him, even while at the same time disagree with the exception granted.
Thank you for your decision to serve.
Thank you very much for your respect and understanding of me and other Sikhs serving. I will definitely look into those documentaries and I appreciate your advice and wisdom. I will make sure I keep in mind.
I apologize for the late response as I have just gotten back from the field and did not have time to respond. I am very sorry that you feel I am lowering the standard and I can understand what you are saying in the sense we should not give preference to certain people. I can say though to answer your question about where do we draw the line in my opinion it should be when it does not interfere with our service in any way shape or form. Digambara monk would seriously render you from doing your job because you need to perform the same way everyone else does, being naked it is impossible to do that.I am being biased because I am a Sikh but at the same time I have always made sure since I have served that my religious garb does not interfere in anyway shape or form me doing my job as an Infantrymen, I also tie my beard everyday so it would not interfere in case of a chemical attack and I need wear a gas mask. I also would like to point out as I'm pretty sure you already know that that Sikhs have served since WW1 in the US Army from MOS's ranging from Physicians, Paratroopers and even a couple in Special Forces. It was not until President Reagan said he wanted uniformity that they changed this policy. I do not believe you could say any of these Soldiers were any less warriors because of their religious Turbans. You can read how 83,oo3 Sikhs served and passed away and another 100,000 have been injured in both World Wars with their Turbans fighting in allied forces, mainly Britain and Canada. I just wish you could understand that as a Sikh it has and will not render me from doing the job. That is the most important thing at the end of the day. Thank you.
Very proud of your service. I hope you have a long and distinguishing career moving forward.
hoot72, this thread is not really about Sikhs. It is that the US Military used to have one standard.
But today in the "everybody gets a trophy" military accommodations are being made for some religions.
By making those accommodations the military will be required to accommodate any religion that takes them to court. Well, except Christianity.
Understand your point Pete but my point was, to understand WHY they are asking for the approval not to cut their hair or their beard is to understand who the Sikh's are and why they are so adamant about their heritage.
That's all.
Understand your point Pete but my point was, to understand WHY they are asking for the approval not to cut their hair or their beard is to understand who the Sikh's are and why they are so adamant about their heritage.
That's all.
So you're OK with Wiccans wearing pointy hats - as long as they're multi cam? After all.......
Moving beyond just religious accomodation, why can't someone wear sturdy sandals and cargo shorts, a beard down to their navel, long, flowing locks to match and large gauges in their ears simply because they're more comfortable doing so? If an accomodation can be made for religion, why not one for comfort, political affiliation or just plain personal preference (since at its core, religion is a personal preference)? Why have a uniform at all if individuals are allowed to 'chip away' at it to meet their personal preferences?
As Pete sagely pointed out, service in the US military right now is voluntary--it's a privilege, not a right. If you don't want to conform to the requirements, you don't have to serve, no matter how much you'd 'like' to (as long as you get to do so on your own terms).
At it's base level...it's like trying out for a team.
You try out and get selected. You wear their uniforms and play by their rules.
No one cares about your personal issues, beliefs, etc. That is for your personal time.
If you can't comply with the teams rules, don't apply or find a way to quit.
It's really that simple!
At it's base level...it's like trying out for a team.
You try out and get selected. You wear their uniforms and play by their rules.
No one cares about your personal issues, beliefs, etc. That is for your personal time.
If you can't comply with the teams rules, don't apply or find a way to quit.
It's really that simple!
I agree.....as much as I admire the Sikh's military tradition and excellent service once one starts accommodating the unique dress and customs of religions you open a door we generally do not pass thru in the US military.
England had numerous colonial army units and adapted to whatever cultural and religious practices they had....as they were usually serving in their own country of origin this made great sense. They developed a military culture of colonial troops and their garb....it exists to this day.
We've never had 'colonial troops' for a good reason altho we've often employed indigenous for specific fights....they were not brought into the national military structure.
If you make exceptions for one 'tribe' then the door is open to anything in our society and today that could be pagans, devil worship, whatever....and any special 'garb' they say is essential to their faith.
Uniformity comes from the word 'uniform' and that is the bottom line.
Team Sergeant
09-22-2017, 12:42
Understand your point Pete but my point was, to understand WHY they are asking for the approval not to cut their hair or their beard is to understand who the Sikh's are and why they are so adamant about their heritage.
That's all.
And if you've read the entire thread you'd realize its not about Sikhs.
You seriously think all "religions" are not adamant about their "religious rituals"........ that's what makes them different........all 1000 of them......... how many should we accommodate with uniform waivers?
Run along now, you're not adding anything to their argument.
Deep singh
09-22-2017, 14:37
Very proud of your service. I hope you have a long and distinguishing career moving forward.
Thank for your kind words. Means a lot.
Deep singh
09-22-2017, 14:52
Moving beyond just religious accomodation, why can't someone wear sturdy sandals and cargo shorts, a beard down to their navel, long, flowing locks to match and large gauges in their ears simply because they're more comfortable doing so? If an accomodation can be made for religion, why not one for comfort, political affiliation or just plain personal preference (since at its core, religion is a personal preference)? Why have a uniform at all if individuals are allowed to 'chip away' at it to meet their personal preferences?
As Pete sagely pointed out, service in the US military right now is voluntary--it's a privilege, not a right. If you don't want to conform to the requirements, you don't have to serve, no matter how much you'd 'like' to (as long as you get to do so on your own terms).
I understand what you are saying and it honestly makes a lot of sense but the difference is those are cultural reasons which the Army cannot confirm to. It's because this military is built on the freedom of religion not the freedom on cultural attires. I wear the same Uniform, Wear the appropriate Turban for PT and in Uniform, and fight on the same side as everyone else. What happened to the Army is made of different shades of green. I have stated in the past this is no new policy as Sikhs have served since WW1 in the US Army. I don't think you would say they were any less soldiers because of the way they look. Same as the Rangers in Grenada and Special Forces in Vietnam and today when they grow beards I don't see how anyone would say they are not part of the team because of the way they look. Their were Sikhs such as Sewak Singh Kroesen and Gopal Singh Khalsa who both served in SPECIAL FORCES. I don't think you would say they are not welcomed their and not part of the team so to speak. Thank you and again I apologize if I offend anybody with my comments.
..... I don't think you would say they are not welcomed their and not part of the team so to speak. Thank you and again I apologize if I offend anybody with my comments.
Well, this thread has clearly flown over your head and you didn't even duck.
It's still all about you.
craigepo
09-22-2017, 15:36
A question if I might: Is this Sikh issue the same as what Desmond Doss (MOH winner/Hacksaw Ridge) injected by his service (he was a conscientious objector because of his faith, but wanted to serve)?
Also, who would we consider to be more patriotic, a conscientious objector, or a Sikh wishing to serve with his beard and turban?
Sorry, that was two questions.
Deep singh
09-22-2017, 16:33
Well, this thread has clearly flown over your head and you didn't even duck.
It's still all about you.
It's not about me in anyway. It's about how Sikhi is the fifth largest religion in the world and people in the United States have no idea who we are as they assume we are Islamist when we have fought and died in allied forces for the freedom of democracy and our Turban is a reminder of that. When Islamist told us to cut our hair and shave our beards and convert to Islam and they would leave us alone we chose the route of being butchered to the thousands. It's about how you don't understand why we fight for this. It's not a fashion statement its a part of who we are. The United States has the most hate crimes against people of the Sikh faith and that will always remain if we cannot show we are patriotic American that love this country and are willing to die for it. That is why a lot of my family members put the American flag on their Turbans during Fourth of July Independence Day to show that this is where our alliance is. I feel that it is my duty to my nation as I did not do this for money and if I did I would have never thought of being a Private in the Infantry. I did it because I love this country and to honor those before me. Thank you.
It's not about me in anyway. It's about how Sikhi is the fifth largest religion in the world and people in the United States have no idea who we are as they assume we are Islamist when we have fought and died in allied forces for the freedom of democracy and our Turban is a reminder of that. When Islamist told us to cut our hair and shave our beards and convert to Islam and they would leave us alone we chose the route of being butchered to the thousands. It's about how you don't understand why we fight for this. It's not a fashion statement its a part of who we are. The United States has the most hate crimes against people of the Sikh faith and that will always remain if we cannot show we are patriotic American that love this country and are willing to die for it. That is why a lot of my family members put the American flag on their Turbans during Fourth of July Independence Day to show that this is where our alliance is. I feel that it is my duty to my nation as I did not do this for money and if I did I would have never thought of being a Private in the Infantry. I did it because I love this country and to honor those before me. Thank you.
I believe you are an honorable guy....I get that most Americans can't tell the dif between a Muslim and Sikh....it is really angst with Islam and I do get that.
If you want to do something Patriotic then do what you can to explain/expose your faith and garb top Americans in some manner....this does not have to be done thru a military venue.
Good luck to you.
I learn something new here every day. As I mentioned earlier, I saw a Sikh in a sister company during Basic but I didn't realize some had careers and that the turban was accepted as proper headgear. It does look like they trimmed their beards, though.
Pat
I learn something new here every day. As I mentioned earlier, I saw a Sikh in a sister company during Basic but I didn't realize some had careers and that the turban was accepted as proper headgear. It does look like they trimmed their beards, though.
Pat
Trimming of the beard is a general practice these day's in the Indian army and in the British Army for Sikh's. And for civilian sikh's who prefer to keep the turban/long hair/beard.
50% of Sikh's today don't wear turban's or keep beards anymore.
These tend to be Sikh's living in the States, Canada, UK, Australia/NZ and Asia (not the new generation of Sikh's who recently migrated who generally keep their traditions). It's the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th generation Sikhs who have moved away from the old traditions.
Abide by regulations. Stop changing them and/or making exceptions.
Deep singh
09-23-2017, 22:22
I believe you are an honorable guy....I get that most Americans can't tell the dif between a Muslim and Sikh....it is really angst with Islam and I do get that.
If you want to do something Patriotic then do what you can to explain/expose your faith and garb top Americans in some manner....this does not have to be done thru a military venue.
Good luck to you.
Thank you I really appreciate what you have said. It truly is an honor to have somebody like yourself say that. I feel as an American and as a Sikh that it is my duty to help and protect the innocent. I feel this is my calling and no better calling out their then to defend my country. It it one of the greatest selfless service a man can do I feel.
Deep singh
09-23-2017, 22:25
I learn something new here every day. As I mentioned earlier, I saw a Sikh in a sister company during Basic but I didn't realize some had careers and that the turban was accepted as proper headgear. It does look like they trimmed their beards, though.
Pat
Actually I know everyone in those photos they actually tie their beard up everyday. I actually have met the dentist in person and his beard is down to his chest but because of being in the Military and to look proper he ties it up as I do too.
Actually I know everyone in those photos they actually tie their beard up everyday. I actually have met the dentist in person and his beard is down to his chest but because of being in the Military and to look proper he ties it up as I do too.
Given your deep devotion to both your religion and this country, if you, now in uniform, were asked to adapt to regulation uniform, at least temporarily for a specific mission, would you? The SF guys you reference grow beards for a reason when necessary.
ETA: Full disclosure. After PVT Singh joined PS.com, I pointed him to this thread to hear, from his perspective, why he joined and how it has been implemented.
Pat
Deep singh
09-23-2017, 22:52
Abide by regulations. Stop changing them and/or making exceptions.
I am sorry that you feel that way. I agree we should not change policies as they have had Sikhs Fight for this country since WW1. I wish you could read up about them as some of them served even in SPECIAL FORCES. I feel that they should have kept that policy before President Reagan changed it because of uniformity. Why is it that 83003 Sikhs fought and died fighting on the same side and we cannot honor them by asking just to keep our Turbans, uncut hair and beards. Why must we say they are less warriors because of the way they look. I understand how you feel as I have said before about uniformity but I guarantee that if you ask any Turban wearing Sikh in the United States they would be more than willing to serve but all they would ask is let us serve with our articles of faith. That is the only thing. My friend Specialist Lamba who is already out joined as a 68W and he had an MBA and was 27 when he joined. He waited a whole year before they would let him join but he still fought for it because he told me it was to show that we are Americans that love this country. I myself waited six months to be approved to join as an 11Bravo for my Religious Accommodation when people who get waivers for DUI and minor juvenile hall sentences quicker than I did. I did this because my values as a Sikh teach me to go fight for the nation that has given me everything. I hope to one day serve with this amazing brotherhood as it was my brothers dream to serve in SF as he has passed and wish to live his legacy and also my dream. Thank you
miclo18d
09-24-2017, 06:39
Are you any less a Sikh if you don’t have a beard? Top knot? (Keep Kesh?) Does your faith disappear with the shearing of your hair? Would you fight for your faith any less without it? Is your your faith outward or inward?
I personally keep a beard now that I’m retired. Not for religious reasons but my wife likes it. So this is not about beards. I have grown a beard for combat operations and we were given a waiver to do this, this is not just because we wanted to but for mission accomplishment. Even in combat when our beards were “out of control”, the TS had us trim them. Before we stepped on the plane to come home, we were clean shaven to standard per AR-670-1. Did I want to keep it? Sure, but I enlisted understanding I can’t always do what I want to do. To include practicing my religious beliefs when not appropriate according to regulations and mission requirements. But then my faith has no requirement, no rule, no outward showing for salvation, except that I believe.
These are my questions as to what Sikhism is/isn’t. Seeking perspective.
This has been said many times "It isn't about you". Yet, you still make it about you. You are part of the US ARMY culture, you adapt to it, it doesn't adapt to you. You chose to be a part of it full well knowing that the regulations conflict with your religion and your "feelings". You and other Sikhs make up a very, very, very small population of the US ARMY. Yet you feel as a Sikh, that the rules should be changed to accommodate you. Why? What makes you better than 99.99% of the rest of the Army? Are you not a Soldier first and a Sikh second or is it the other way around? Does a turban and beard define you or does the content of your character define you? Right now your displaying the former. The rules and regulations are to ensure that you are Always a Soldier first!! For the rest of your life will be asking all your employers for special accommodations? Were does this end?
"The good of the many, outweigh the good of the few or the one", Mr Spock.
I can see it now.
Rastafari's getting an exception for their dreadlocks, knit cap (as long as it's Multi CaM) and smoking weed.
After all........
We've made exceptions for Jews, Muslims and Sikhs.
Side note - First Peoples made the play for weed years back as a cultural/religious thing but got shot down. Maybe it's time for them to give it another shot.
Maybe it's time to throw out all the grooming standards in 670-1. After all, gender is fluid. Squads may need to communicate before coming to work in the morning so their nail colors don't clash.
miclo18d
09-24-2017, 09:17
Maybe animal sacrifices to Satan as well as a pentagram tattooed to the forehead...
....well if the Sikhs can wear a turban? Or if the ___________ (fill in religious sect) can wear ___________ (fill in religious sect’s garb), then why can’t I just do this because I want to? Well now that homosexuality is permitted howabout pedophilia?
We’re sliding down the slippery slope as we speak!
The point is this:
Once you start making exceptions to the foundation of military service...uniformity/sameness you are playing with something far more important than simply a minor uniform change.
One of the primary reasons uniformity exists is for recognition...not only on the battlefield but for the purpose of bonding...mental bonding. A psychological aspect.
'We are all on the same team...we look alike...we are the 'same''...one tribe.
When you allow religious or cultural application of non uniformity you start creating other visual 'tribes'.....sub sets.
I suspect the reason that Sikh Cpt. was allowed a special deferment was because he is a dentist and Dr.s of any sort are hard to get....my wife was getting recruiting email well into her 40's...hey, c'mon down..two week school and you are a Captain yada yada.
frostfire
09-24-2017, 11:46
I suspect the reason that Sikh Cpt. was allowed a special deferment was because he is a dentist and Dr.s of any sort are hard to get....my wife was getting recruiting email well into her 40's...hey, c'mon down..two week school and you are a Captain yada yada.
bingo!
Deep singh, you have explained in details your conviction to serve and the Sikh values. I find it commendable and I wish you all the best in your endeavor.
However, as many have pointed out you are drawing more and more attention to yourself, even away from the Sikh cause. If I were you, I would move out and draw fire. The next time this board hears from you should be in the happy thoughts of the day thread when you make honor graduate, get your EIB, get your Ranger Tab, Presidents 100, SF, make the Ranger Regiment and so on.
You remind me of the Nepalis MAVNI. Despite all the bad rep of MAVNI, one made Soldier of the Year, and another earned the long tab as 18D. Both supported SF in Afghanistan with their linguistic skill. IMHOO, that is HOW you influence change of perception. Deeds over words. I have faith you will accomplish much as they did. "Your why has to be greater than the knockdowns"
What I hear a lot from a lot of different groups is simple...
"This isnt about my, (race, gender, religion, or lifestyle), it's about OUR service to the nation...
...now, what can everyone do to accommodate MY needs based on my (race, gender, religion, or lifestyle)."
It confuses me and clouds my opinion.
Deep singh
09-25-2017, 15:01
Given your deep devotion to both your religion and this country, if you, now in uniform, were asked to adapt to regulation uniform, at least temporarily for a specific mission, would you? The SF guys you reference grow beards for a reason when necessary.
ETA: Full disclosure. After PVT Singh joined PS.com, I pointed him to this thread to hear, from his perspective, why he joined and how it has been implemented.
Pat
Sorry again for the late reply. I am back in the field for a couple days. Well to be honest I could not, not even temporarily as if that was the case I would have not got an accomadation. I can promise that for any mission I do not see why my articles of faith would ever render me from doing my job. Thank you
..... Well to be honest I could not, not even temporarily as if that was the case I would have not got an accomadation. I can promise that for any mission I do not see why my articles of faith would ever render me from doing my job. Thank you
And there you have it folks - the bottom line - "NO".
Do you plan on just pulling your tour and getting out or maybe reenlisting and trying out for the Rangers or SF?
Deep singh
09-25-2017, 17:40
bingo!
Deep singh, you have explained in details your conviction to serve and the Sikh values. I find it commendable and I wish you all the best in your endeavor.
However, as many have pointed out you are drawing more and more attention to yourself, even away from the Sikh cause. If I were you, I would move out and draw fire. The next time this board hears from you should be in the happy thoughts of the day thread when you make honor graduate, get your EIB, get your Ranger Tab, Presidents 100, SF, make the Ranger Regiment and so on.
You remind me of the Nepalis MAVNI. Despite all the bad rep of MAVNI, one made Soldier of the Year, and another earned the long tab as 18D. Both supported SF in Afghanistan with their linguistic skill. IMHOO, that is HOW you influence change of perception. Deeds over words. I have faith you will accomplish much as they did. "Your why has to be greater than the knockdowns"
Thank you for your amazing advice. I will prove myself as you have said actions speak louder than words. I will remember your advice throughout my Military career and life. I will leave as you have said it would be better but I really appreciate all what you have said. Thank you very much and everyone on this form for your insight and for your service. I hope and strive to be like the men on this website. Thank you.
Deep singh
09-25-2017, 17:43
And there you have it folks - the bottom line - "NO".
Do you plan on just pulling your tour and getting out or maybe reenlisting and trying out for the Rangers or SF?
I plan to to try out in this enlistment once I get a PFC as that is when I'm allowed to go for Selection the SORB Recruiter has told me so I am waiting until Febuary as that is when I'm a PFC.
CloseDanger
09-27-2017, 20:21
Deep Singh!
Now that IS a bad ass handle. And Handle it Ye Do!
And Yes! Everyone gets a trophy.
Well done Guys!
Deep Singh!
Now that IS a bad ass handle.
It may actually be his name.
Pat
Deep singh
09-27-2017, 20:46
It may actually be his name.
Pat
Roger. That is my actual name. Deep first and Singh is my last name.
Roger. That is my actual name. Deep first and Singh is my last name.
I gather Deep is just the short part of a longer first name but I would n't ask what it is for privacy sake :)