View Full Version : "Islam is Most Certainly False"
An interview with the fearless coptic priest, Father Zakaria Botros:
FP: In what way can you summarize for us why you think that Islam is a “false” religion?
Botros: Theologically, as I am a Christian priest, I believe that only Christianity offers the truth. Based on my faith in Christ, I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths. Moreover, one of the greatest crimes committed by Muhammad—a crime which he shall surely never be forgiven for—is that he denied the grace and mercy that Christ brought, and took humanity back to the age of the law.
But faith aside, common sense alone makes it clear that, of all the world’s major religions, Islam is most certainly false. After all, while I may not believe in, say, Buddhism, still, it obviously offers a good philosophical system and people follow it apparently for its own intrinsic worth. The same cannot be said about Islam. Of all the religions it is the only one that has to threaten its adherents with death if they try to break away; that, from its inception, in order to “buy” followers, has been dedicated to fulfilling some of the worst impulses of man—for conquest, sex, plunder, pride. History alone demonstrates all this: while Christianity was spread far and wide by Christians who altruistically gave up their lives, simply because they believed in Christ, Islam spread by force, by the edge of the sword, by fear, threats, and lurid enticements to the basest desires of man. Islam is by far the falsest religion—an assertion that is at once theologically, philosophically, and historically demonstrable.
http://frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=35073
Something I sort of expect from a person who is part of a religion. The problem as I see it, we have somewhere between 850 million to a billion people who follow Islam. I think it is better to make more friends rather than more enemies, Sort of the bases of hearts and minds.
Going after the tangos is very reasonable. I think I can understand the need to go after Islam but I feel it is a error. 500 years ago, Christianity in Europe was not much better. Obviously Christianity changed from inside, so to me the question is; "How to get or help Islam to change."
Currently the Clerics in Turkey are reviewing the Hadiths. Stating, they want to change those errors that are used as excuses to commit horrible acts on other people (my wording). That is a good direction, IMHO.
I feel that attacking Islam will only move liberal and moderate Muslims to the more extreme camp.
Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how other view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker.
I know this is not a easy subject to approach. I am sure those who have worked with indigenous people know it is not wise to tell them how backwards and illiterate they as compared to our civilization. :cool:
Addition note, if it taste good, do not ask what it is. :D
Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how others view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker.
Hollis--
Well said, as usual.
Plutarch
06-07-2009, 15:02
Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how other view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker.
Oh, those bigoted Christians...when will they give up their beliefs and accept that all religions are equally valid? :rolleyes:
Oh, those bigoted Christians...when will they give up their beliefs and accept that all religions are equally valid? :rolleyes:
I wonder where I said that, can you show me. I mention one specific person out of 2 billion. So show me where I equivocated and made such a all encompassing statement.
I find it interesting that when a Christian says his is the true religion he is treated as some kind of bigot.
When a Muslim says it, and says convert, pay the tax or die we must applaud his diversity and embrace where he's coming from. If we only understood......
Turkey? Now there is an interesting study. I wonder which way it is tilting these days?
Plutarch
06-07-2009, 18:10
I wonder where I said that, can you show me. I mention one specific person out of 2 billion. So show me where I equivocated and made such a all encompassing statement.
Here you go..
"Originally Posted by HOLLiS View Post
Also the priest statement, "I reject all other religious systems as man-made and thus not reflective of divine truths." I guess he like making allies for Islam too. Personally that is his choice and right, but to voice it in this manner does not help how other view him. I see him more as a bigot than a peace maker. "
Every Christian rejects all other man made religions, and likewise does not believe that they are reflective of divine truths. To believe otherwise would violate basic Christian tenets.
By claiming that this is a bigoted statement, you cast aspersions on faithful Christians everywhere.
Perhaps this was not your intent, but it is the unavoidable consequence of your statement.
MOO - and based on my experiences with many religius beliefs - I think I'll continue to stick with my belief in the wisdom of our founding fathers in their recognition solely of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Peregrino
06-07-2009, 20:15
MOO - and based on my experiences with many religius beliefs - I think I'll continue to stick with my belief in the wisdom of our founding fathers in their recognition solely of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Richard - I'm with you.
Hollis - Father Botros isn't about apologizing for Islam. In fact, his entire approach is based on using the teachings/writings of Islam to attack the fundamental beliefs of its faithful. Given what Islam has done over the last 1400 years, it's pretty easy to see where he's coming from.
I know this is not a easy subject to approach. I am sure those who have worked with indigenous people know it is not wise to tell them how backwards and illiterate they as compared to our civilization.
Absolutely correct, at least if you ever expect to get them to do what you want. Keeping your mouth shut to improve your chances of manipulating the indig doesn't mean you need to adopt moral relativity as a personal philosophy. There is good and evil in the world; recognizing it and challenging it when/where you can will make you a better man for yourself, and a more steadfast companion for those who depend on you in adversity. If you can read the Koran, accept its demand to submit, and reconcile that to the ideals of Western philosophy (liberty, self determination, etc.), you're a lot more morally/intellectually flexible than I am.
I find it interesting that when a Christian says his is the true religion he is treated as some kind of bigot.
When a Muslim says it, and says convert, pay the tax or die we must applaud his diversity and embrace where he's coming from. If we only understood......
Turkey? Now there is an interesting study. I wonder which way it is tilting these days?
Any force or coercive conversion is just plane wrong. I don't see a different if religion X says it or religions Y says it. Same if religion X says I am going to end up in a bad place or if religion Y says the same thing. Some how faith through threats and intimidation just does not sound right to me.
On Turkey, my understanding it is a more tolerant to others view. I'll have to dig up the article.
Edited to add, from google, Turkey rewrites the Hadiths. There is a bunch of hits.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/27/turkey.islam
Richard - I'm with you.
Hollis - Father Botros isn't about apologizing for Islam. In fact, his entire approach is based on using the teachings/writings of Islam to attack the fundamental beliefs of its faithful. Given what Islam has done over the last 1400 years, it's pretty easy to see where he's coming from.
I know a number of Coptic Christians, who are also very well versed in in those aspects. I am also familiar with much of what they have gone through in the persecutions inflected upon them in Egypt.
Personally I don't agree with his tactic on a public level. Besides going after Islam he is also attacking other religions, which should be his ally. A sermon on the pulpit maybe what the people in the pew needs to hear but how it comes across to others needs to measured if it is going to be directed to others.
My view on Islam isn't what is important, I believe, we need to avoid this kind of trap that the extremists will use against us. Why provide them with a weapon that can be used against us? I am not interested in fighting 1 billion people. Books don't kill people, people kill people.
I think I am on the same page as Richard. 1st and 2nd sentence to the Declaration of Independence
I believe, we need to avoid this kind of trap that the extremists will use against us. Why provide them with a weapon that can be used against us? I am not interested in fighting 1 billion people.
So they can say what they want, but we must avoid saying anything that might offend them? We must be ever forebearant, but they can engage in provocative speech, as well as acts? And this model will, somehow, cause them to become peaceful, gentle folk who embrace cultural diversity due to our example? It does not seem to have worked to date. When will we see positive results?
Somehow, this strikes me as closely akin to surrender. Furthermore, if we abandon our various cultural values, all in the interest in avoiding offense, have we not already lost?
More pointedly - if various elements of our cultural institutions are unwilling to state unequivocally that we are right and they are wrong, why should they consider change?
I am reminded of a quote by a certain student of human nature: "Probe with a bayonet: if you meet steel, stop. If you meet mush, then push."
Are we displaying steel? Or mush?
longrange1947
06-07-2009, 20:57
Take great care in believing in Christianity only spreading through love and honey. I can name a goodly number of years that Christianity was forced through torture and war upon many "Savages". That has gone on even into semi modern times. Take a look at Christianity about say 700 years ago and see where it was in relationship to Islam today. Then remember that modern Islam is about that far behind modern Christianity.
And as far as pain of death, I reckon you would not like to denounce Christianity to an Inquisitor about 700 years. :munchin
So they can say what they want, but we must avoid saying anything that might offend them? We must be ever forebearant, but they can engage in provocative speech, as well as acts? And this model will, somehow, cause them to become peaceful, gentle folk who embrace cultural diversity due to our example? It does not seem to have worked to date. When will we see positive results?
In your statement, the first "they" would be the tangos/extremists. Your "them" in Offending them, would be Muslims. I am not putting those two groups as being the same.
Extremists/tangos are fighting for the support from the Muslims. We are fighting to keep the Muslims from being drawn into their (tangos') trap and that they will support us.
Does that clarify?
Yes, the Protestant reformation marked a major change in Christianity. And, even after the reformation, forcible conversion was not unusual.
Some suggest that the phrase: "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his" originated from a campaign in France, circa the early 1200's.
LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade)
Does that clarify?
I can understand your perspective; you write very clearly.
I can also understand why you urge the point that the greater Islamic population might be driven toward the radicals by the message from the priest.
That said, I am not at all sure about the conclusion.
First, I suspect that radicalism is not a binary condition. Rather, there is a continuum - with beliefs spread across the spectrum from non-believers going through the motions to true believers that foam at the mouth.
But the fundamental question remains - which behavior produces the best outcome for us?
If we take the position that their views are not wrong, then we avoid antagonizing some portion of the believers in Islam. On the other hand, we fail to challenge their beliefs, which form the supporting structure for their actions.
However, if we (or at least, some individuals) say they are in error, we will annoy some of the Islamics. We will also cause some to question their assumptions and perhaps change the underlying precepts of their religion.
I don't claim to know which approach is best. I just find it difficult to believe that we can persuade the moderates that we are correct if we don't advocate our cultural beliefs. We might wish to ask whether challenging beliefs might be a necessary element to trigger change.
MOO - YMMV.
By claiming that this is a bigoted statement, you cast aspersions on faithful Christians everywhere.
Perhaps this was not your intent, but it is the unavoidable consequence of your statement.
By one estimate, there are 2.1 billion Christians on the planet <<LINK (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)>>. By your logic, Christians who are not offended by Hollis's insightful analysis of Botros's statement are not faithful. At least one denomination, the Armenian Apostolic Church, is on record disagreeing with your exceptionally broad assertion and rejecting Botros's interpretation of non-Christian religions <<LINK (www.armenianorthodoxchurch.org/v04/doc/Documents/International%20Conference.pdf)>>. This church has approximately eight million members (source (http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/europe/armenia/armenian-apostolic-church.html)). Are they unfaithful in your eyes?
Take great care in believing in Christianity only spreading through love and honey. I can name a goodly number of years that Christianity was forced through torture and war upon many "Savages". That has gone on even into semi modern times. Take a look at Christianity about say 700 years ago and see where it was in relationship to Islam today. Then remember that modern Islam is about that far behind modern Christianity.
And as far as pain of death, I reckon you would not like to denounce Christianity to an Inquisitor about 700 years. :munchin
In addition to the use of violence and intimidation, Christianity has also been spread by accommodation, compromise, negotiation, and revision as discussed by Keith Thomas in Religion and the Decline of Magic (1970).
I've always wondered why - if Judaism was the first of the now numerous large monotheistic religious groups in which God appears as we consider or recognize God today - aren't we all Jewish? And for that matter, why do Jews leave the faith - and why are there so many variations of Judaism in existance - including those who believe Jesus to be the Son of God? Of equal importance - in my mind - why do so many religious beliefs - from non-belief (which is of itself a belief) to animism (in which everything has a universal life spirit) - still exist and flourish within the world after so many centuries of proselytizing? And if God is such, why are the oft proclaimed 'false' beliefs - of which there are so many by proclamation - allowed to exist and even flourish? And why would God allow us to be blatantly lied to like that - unless we haven't fallen from God's grace because we're flawed as so many claim, but because we are perhaps of God's image and temperment - flaws and all? Just pondering here. :confused:
From my point-of-view only, I personally believe faith - as such - is universal, but the specific ways in which we accept or attempt to understand it are as arbitrary as the methods we use to go about predicting with any sense of certainty what our planet will do with itself - and, thus, with us. Personally, experience, study, and observation tells me that God must exist - my mind tells me that I will never understand God - and my heart tells me - a bit painfully and regretfully - that I am not meant to do so. But why? I don't know. And beyond that - well - I believe. Obviously, there are others.
And so it goes...;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
charlietwo
06-08-2009, 07:38
And why would God allow us to be blatantly lied to like that - unless we haven't fallen from God's grace because we're flawed as so many claim, but because we are perhaps of God's image and temperment - flaws and all? Just pondering here. :confused:
He would let us be blatantly lied to for the same reason he gives us free will.
Personally, experience, study, and observation tells me that God must exist - my mind tells me that I will never understand God - and my heart tells me - a bit painfully and regretfully - that I am not meant to do so. But why? I don't know. And beyond that - well - I believe.
Very well put, Richard. Though I would argue you can strive to understand him, very few people on Earth have ever became the subject matter expert in that department. Working towards it is what matters the most.
Hollis-
If someone is passionate enough to devote their lives to the study of something, would it not be cowardice to engage in double-think when asked? Your number of 800,000,000 people makes a strong argument towards challenging a religion that spreads violence everywhere it touches. Whether it be the founding documents or it's major leaders -- specifically Mohammed -- Islam is the worlds largest exporter of radical ideology on violence.
I would argue the seeds of it's own destruction are written within the Quran. Anyone else believe this?
Hollis-
If someone is passionate enough to devote their lives to the study of something, would it not be cowardice to engage in double-think when asked? Your number of 800,000,000 people makes a strong argument towards challenging a religion that spreads violence everywhere it touches. Whether it be the founding documents or it's major leaders -- specifically Mohammed -- Islam is the worlds largest exporter of radical ideology on violence.
I would argue the seeds of it's own destruction are written within the Quran. Anyone else believe this?
Charlietwo,
I am avoiding what I think about Islam for a reason. I have no doubts that our military is capable of the task assigned. It is not the military that I am concern about. The RVN war was a military success, it was thrown away because we lost the propaganda war. Look at mighty Israel, it has been loosing the propaganda war for a long time.
The same tactics that were employed against us in the RVN war, is being employed today on many levels. It is on the Propaganda war where we are most vulnerable. That is why I mentioned "Hearts and Minds".
BTW, your last sentence, is a good reason not to worry so much. IMHO, the Muslim extremist have more to fear from the future than us. I think they know that and that they are loosing. Also the extremist have natural allies in our partisan political system. (Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, and the rest of the crew).
I also think our biggest battles is not with the tango, as it is with those at home, much like it was in the RVN war.
I think its pointless to worry about driving liberal minded muslims toward the extremists and their agenda. If they are unwilling to stand up (out of fear of death) and declare their anger at the extremists for "hijacking" their "peaceful" religion, then I highly doubt they will become supporters of the violent and mysoginistic extreme. I work with many muslims and one of them has become a friend. We talk constantly about religion, his, mine, others. He feels, much as I do, that education (teaching these people to read and write) will help put a nail in the coffin of the taliban/al quaida. The Imams and tangos use the lack of education as a strong ally in furthering their recruitment and jihad.
I guess the Pakistanis have had about all they are going to take from the tangos in this region of Pakistan... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525320,00.html Jeez, I thought a muslim killing another muslim is a great sin.