View Full Version : History Help Needed, McNamara!
Bill Harsey
07-03-2004, 22:03
I graduated high school in 1973. This means I knew very little about what was happening in Vietnam because my only source of information was broadcast television. I just finished reading two great books by Major John Plaster about SOG that gave me a better background about the war, in the opening pages, than 10 years of television. You guys also know I have the world of respect for those who served in that country. This evening I watched a kind of documentary called "Fog of War" featuring Robert McNamara. I can't reconcile what he says compared to Major John Plaster. When in doubt I go with the man on the ground. Can anyone help me with Mr. McNamaras role in Vietnam? Thanks, Bill
Bill Harsey
07-03-2004, 22:37
Any information would be both respected and appreciated, especially from the FOGs who served there. I'll take it off the record if that's easier.
BMT (RIP)
07-04-2004, 04:33
Bill, Does the EDSEL atomobile ring a bell?? Mac believed everything could be done with numbers.
If you made 10 blades and none passed the test XXXX,if you made 10 blades and all passed the test XXXX.The man was hung up on percentages.
BMT
Jr. FOG
IMO one of the dreaded micro-managers. He cuffed Westmoreland and the JCS. He would not allow them to operate as they knew how. A big factor in screwing up our polocy in RVN.
Bill Harsey
07-04-2004, 07:31
Originally posted by BMT
Bill, Does the EDSEL atomobile ring a bell?? Mac believed everything could be done with numbers.
If you made 10 blades and none passed the test XXXX,if you made 10 blades and all passed the test XXXX.The man was hung up on percentages.
BMT
Jr. FOG In "Fog of War" McNamara was very proud of his use of statistical analysis. That raised serious red flags with me because I see that used badly all the time by industry to make terrible choices.
Bill Harsey
07-04-2004, 07:40
Originally posted by QRQ 30
IMO one of the dreaded micro-managers. He cuffed Westmoreland and the JCS. He would not allow them to operate as they knew how. A big factor in screwing up our polocy in RVN. Very interesting, he dwelled on many details about Vietnam but never once spoke of how much effort and material North Vietnam and China used against South Vietnam. I know some of the original SEALs who worked in the south, they say the same about not being allowed to operate as they knew.
NousDefionsDoc
07-04-2004, 08:57
Scientist trying to work in an art.
Its called the "Art of War" not the "Science of War" for a reason.
Of course i'm much too young to remember first hand.:D
The Reaper
07-04-2004, 09:51
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Scientist trying to work in an art.
Its called the "Art of War" not the "Science of War" for a reason.
Of course i'm much too young to remember first hand.:D
I thought you were a Clausewitz fan, not Jomini?
McNamara was a self-serving tool and an arrogant ass, BTW.
TR
CommoGeek
07-06-2004, 08:00
Bill,
You may know of the F-111 fighter-bomber. McNamara's intent was to build a dual missions a/c for both the Navy and AF. The thought being that if you made 3 zillion copies of airframe x and applied some minor changes for both missions you could pass on the savings to the taxpayers, right?
The things was a boondoggel from the beginning in that AF and Navy needs are vastly different. landing gear, airframe, wiring, and a bunch of stuff I don't know about are all different.
So the F-111 was given to the AF who promptly rushed it into combat to prove it's worth. The terrain following/ avoidance radar sucked and IIRC 6 of 8 a/c in theatre crashed with the loss of the two crewmen on each a/c.
Just one example for you from a historical perspective.
CPTAUSRET
01-25-2005, 19:30
Bill:
A good book to read re the Vietnam war is "WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE AND YOUNG" Hal Moore Jr LTG Ret, and Joe Galloway.
Macnamara was a pompous ass, who directly affected the outcome of the war.
His middle name is Strange, aptly named he was!
Terry
Bill Harsey
01-25-2005, 19:42
Thanks Terry,
Will do as advised. I just re-read my opening statement/question for this thread and still stand by it.
Just a footnote Terry, I got my first helo ride from a buddy who drove Cobras in Vietnam and then for some outfit who's initials are AA. He flies for a big timber comapny here now. I've spoken to him about checking out PS.com here. Maybe I need to twist his arm HARDER.
This same friend landed (unnamed large timber companies) helicopter in the lower pasture here one day to pick up some work I'd completed for him. Some dirtbag just down the road flushed all his stuff down the toilet because he thought it was a bust. I got that info from the sheriffs dept. a couple weeks later.
Roguish Lawyer
01-25-2005, 19:44
Bill:
You should read The Pentagon Papers.
RL
CPTAUSRET
01-25-2005, 19:50
Thanks Terry,
Will do as advised. I just re-read my opening statement/question for this thread and still stand by it.
Just a footnote Terry, I got my first helo ride from a buddy who drove Cobras in Vietnam and then for some outfit who's initials are AA. He flies for a big timber comapny here now. I've spoken to him about checking out PS.com here. Maybe I need to twist his arm HARDER.
This same friend landed (unnamed large timber companies) helicopter in the lower pasture here on day to pick up some work I'd completed for him. Some dirtbag just down the road flushed all his stuff down the toilet because he thought it was a bust. I got that info from the sheriffs dept. a couple weeks later.
Bill:
Understand the AA!
That's funny as hell re the dirtbag down the road.
HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE, and STREET WITHOUT JOY, are two other books I would recommend re Vietnam, both were written by Bernard Fall, and relate a very good story of why the Phrench were driven out of Vietnam.
Terry
CPTAUSRET
01-25-2005, 20:05
Speaking of McNamara, does anyone remember Mcnamara's 100,000??
He proposed dropping the minimum standards (IQ wise), way down for approx 100,000 troops, which were to be assimililated into regular Army units. A piece of social engineering which was an abysmal failure!
Terry
NousDefionsDoc
01-25-2005, 21:01
Speaking of McNamara, does anyone remember Mcnamara's 100,000??
He proposed dropping the minimum standards (IQ wise), way down for approx 100,000 troops, which were to be assimililated into regular Army units. A piece of social engineering which was an abysmal failure!
Terry
I do. I had a Platoon Sergeant that was one of them. He was an E7 and couldn't read or write. I did his resume for him to work in the Forestry Service when he retired. Good guy though.
The Reaper
01-25-2005, 21:02
I do. I had a PLatoon Sergeant that was one of them. He was an E7 and couldn't read or write. I did his resume for him to work in the Forestry Service when he retired. Good guy though.
NDD and I had a Battalion CSM who I believe was one of the 100,000.
TR
CPTAUSRET
01-25-2005, 21:08
I do. I had a Platoon Sergeant that was one of them. He was an E7 and couldn't read or write. I did his resume for him to work in the Forestry Service when he retired. Good guy though.
Interesting, so it did work, somewhat...
CPTAUSRET
01-25-2005, 21:10
NDD and I had a Battalion CSM who I believe was one of the 100,000.
TR
That's funny, I think!
The Reaper
01-25-2005, 21:19
That's funny, I think!
It wasn't when we were in the battalion.
We laughed at a lot of the stupid stuff he did, but were subjected to his poor judgement and decisions.
TR
CPTAUSRET
01-25-2005, 21:41
It wasn't when we were in the battalion.
We laughed at a lot of the stupid stuff he did, but were subjected to his poor judgement and decisions.
TR
Yup, and that poor judgment and decision making could have gotten someone killed!
Terry
Has anyone read Dereliction of Duty (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060187956/qid=1106720181/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-6964865-8779130?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) , by Col. H.R. McMaster, warrior and Ph.D., commander of 3rd ACR Brave Rifles (who became involved in the case of one of his soldiers whose "picture" appeared in a paper - on another thread here). It's on my reading list for hopefully this summer, and I believe it focuses on McNamara among other advisers in Pres. Johnson's administration.
K, vsvo ....... A Yellow Tang...... a Flame Angel (which my wife at the time named flame .... ya don't want to know how she named the other fish. I can't enlarge the pic/avatar.... doesn't matter really, cause I just can't remember the names of the other two. BTW, is that a pic of your aquarium? And to think while in FL, I collected lil' fish for aquariums and shipped them north.
By the way..... to get this thread back on topic....... TR said it all........
Jack Moroney (RIP)
01-26-2005, 06:44
I remember McNamara's 100,000 and believe I commanded a whole company of them at Fort Campbell. Just as we thought it couldn't get anywore we went thru the VOLAR craze where it was more important to give the soldier a desk, a rug, and a lamp for his barracks room than it was to provide the training and resources on how to fight. It took years to recover from this idiot's decisions.
Jack Moroney
K, vsvo ....... A Yellow Tang...... a Flame Angel (which my wife at the time named flame .... ya don't want to know how she named the other fish. I can't enlarge the pic/avatar.... doesn't matter really, cause I just can't remember the names of the other two. BTW, is that a pic of your aquarium? And to think while in FL, I collected lil' fish for aquariums and shipped them north.
12B4S, sharp eyes! It's my little 45 gal. reef. There are 2 yellow tangs in there, one's angled a little bit in the pic. You got the flame angel, there's also a coral beauty angel and a maroon clown not in the pic. The little blue fish is a blue stripe neon goby. He's a cleaner fish, the tangs will pull up to him and line up and he'll comb over them picking/eating up the parasites growing on their skin.
That's pretty neat you used to harvest fish for aquariums, I read about your diving in the other thread. The ones I have are pretty common, I believe most of them are tank-raised at fish farms.
CPTAUSRET
01-26-2005, 11:54
I remember McNamara's 100,000 and believe I commanded a whole company of them at Fort Campbell. Just as we thought it couldn't get anywore we went thru the VOLAR craze where it was more important to give the soldier a desk, a rug, and a lamp for his barracks room than it was to provide the training and resources on how to fight. It took years to recover from this idiot's decisions.
Jack Moroney
Concur, couldn't agree more!!
Terry