Help on Ammo.

[triQshot]

Howdy everyone..(I did use the search, found a lot of useful info, but did not see the info or wisdom I was seeking)

We are planning a hiking trip into Glacier National Park. We have all been warned about bears and mountain lions. We have been advised that it would be smart to hike and camp armed, due to the predatory animals.

I'm looking at picking up the Smith and Wesson 329PD (.44 Rem Mag). I've used this same bullet to take out wild boar, but never thought about taking down a bear. (Only if I have too)

I've been looking at 3 types of ammo for this trip...I can't decide on which would be better (I know it all lies in shot placement) for putting down a bear if we should run into one.

44 Mag 300 GR HP/XTP - Hornaday
(FPS/FT-Lbs)
Muzzle - 1150/881 50yards - 1084/782

44 Mag 225 GR FTX (leverevolution ammo) - Hornaday
Muzzle - 1410/993 50yards - 1240/768

44 Mag 240 GR Hydra-Shock - Federal Ammo
Muzzle - 1210/780 50yards - 1102/647


Based on the stats so far the 225 GR FTX by Hornaday, seems to be the winner. But the Hydra-shocks are a nasty round. But, do I need fast expansion or penetration when dealing with a ticked off bear?


**note this is a back up to the guy humping the m14 :)**

triQ

[monsterhunter]

There's only one I would go with (without getting into the obvious debate this can lead to):

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=55

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Bears, are thick and i would look at "heavy" and "penetration".
If needed be calm and shot placement is crucial.

The greatest Grizzly killer in US history used a .32 cal cap and ball pistol to kill most of his bears and stated it was his favorite method. He actually stood up to the bears and as they rose to hind feet, he would put one through their head up under the chin throuh the brain. I wouldn''t ask anyone to try the same but he shot hundreds of grizzy that way.

A second thought might be a Taurus "Judge" shooting 45 LC and 410 shot. I might be prone to 410 shot in the face as a deterant. Just a thought.
Have fun keep a night watch. when my team was in ALaska when did incounter two Bears At night. But that's another story, and we did have someone awake at night to alert all the sleepers. Dave

[The Reaper]

monsterhunter and Blitzz are correct.

You want penetration over all. Expansion is the enemy of penetration.

The best .44 Magnum loads are too heavy for the 329. If I were going to use a .44 Magnum, I would get a Ruger and stoke it with the heaviest Keith-type hard cast lead bullet I could find. 300 grains or more would be preferred.

As suggested, a good alternative would be a modern improved .45 Colt with the similar (but heavier) cast bullet. The standard SAA will not handle the loads that you want to use.

I would not advocate the use of any type of shot loads against a bear, except for slugs.

Best of luck.

TR

[BigJimCalhoun]

Sir

I have never shot the 329PD, or any 44, but does seem like a really nice revolver though. A 44 mag is second on my list after a hunting rifle.

Good luck on the trip and stay safe. :)

[DinDinA-2]

Take a look at the Alaska Outdoor forum Handgun thread. Some good info. I carry a 629 .44 Mag when my .375 H&H or 12 gauge is too cumbersome, but I don't feel real confident with the 44. The ammo is Barnes Supreme 300 gr Hp...but a small hollow point shape...I have never shot anything with the .44. If I had a spare $1000 I would get a muzzle braked 4 inch Smith 500. Like Reaper said...heavy and hardcast bullets.

Keep in mind grizzly/brown bear do not die as easily as a black bear. A killing caliber/bullet is better than a hunting caliber/bullet.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=54852

[triQshot]

Thanks for the input everyone.

After hearing about the short comings of the 329. I looked toward the Ruger Super Redhawk. Yup, going to go w/ a ruger and heavy grain rounds. :D

[HOLLiS]

I have a Taurus 44 Mag, prior the raging bull but basically that same. It has a 8 in barrel and is compensated. We have black bear and big cats along with other vermin. What I do is alternate penetrating bullet and HP. I use it as my hunting back up. We really don't have a bear problem like in other areas. So it is a untested method. I probably have to worry more about two legged vermin than the four legged locals.

[TrapLine]

I spent time hunting and fishing in Alaska with my brother who was a guide. When in bear country and not hunting for brown bears or moose (and not carrying a .375 H&H) the guides seemed to carry a 12 ga with slugs over the shoulder. We had one "uncomfortable" encounter with a sow and two cubs while duck hunting. The sow retreated after the cubs were clear but as she was closing, I felt better with the slugs. It happened pretty quickly, so stay alert.

[triQshot]

This trip is going to be one of the best I've been on. Also, I've taken everyones advice and went for the heavy grain bullet and penetration power. So I picked up the S&W 460. :lifter

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Sounds like a fun pick.

[Ken Brock]

I would try the Hammerhead ammo from Garrett Ammunition

I've taken quite a few boar and deer with it and it is alleged to be the felines derriere for bear as well

www.garrettcartridges.com

[JJ_BPK]

Just so you don't get dizzy with hand cannons..

Here is an alternative: H&R Model 176 10 gauge 3 1/2 inch Shotgun

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131082663

Have someone shorten the barrel to 20 inch and you will would have a hole lot of whoop-ass in your hands...


Add so ammo:

Federal Cartridge 10 Gauge Game-Shok Rifled Slugs, 3 1/2", Mag.Dram,1 3/4oz, HP by Federal (Per 5)

Federal's rifled slugs provide maximum knockdown power. A special, one-piece cushioned wad helps reduce felt recoil, while the hollow point gives it positive expansion. For use in smooth-bore barrels. Load number: F103RS Gauge: 10 Shell Length: 3.5 inches; 89mm Dram Equiv.: Magnum Slug Weight: 1 3/4 ounces, 766 grains Slug Type: Classic Rifled Slug,

Hollow Point Test Barrel Length: 32" Velocity In Feet Per Second (To Nearest 10 FPS): - Muzzle: 1280 - 25yds: 1160 - 50yds: 1080 - 75yds: 1020 - 100yds: 970

Energy In Foot-Pounds (To Nearest 5 Foot-Pounds): - Muzzle: 2785 - 25yds: 2295 - 50yds: 1980 - 75yds: 1775 - 100yds: 1605

Height of Slug Trajectory in Inches Above of Below Line of Sight if Zeroed At 50 Yards (Sights .5 Inches Above Bore Line): - 25yds: +0.5 - 50yds

Mfg No: F103RS Manufacturer: Federal Cartridge

Might be only a single shot, but with a little practice you can bring some hi-energy to the battle.. and the package will probably weight less!!!

My $00.0002

[Vermonter]

So, a pilot gets reassigned to Alaska and on his first mission out the crew chief hands him a 9mm and full magazine. Pilot asks him what its for and the chief tells him "If you go down you might end up meeting a bear before we get to you". Pilot nods and then notices that the front sight post has been filed off. He asks the chief why and the reply is:

"Well, that's so it doesn't hurt as much when that bear shoves it up your ass after you shoot him with it."

[incarcerated]

This trip is going to be one of the best I've been on. Also, I've taken everyones advice and went for the heavy grain bullet and penetration power. So I picked up the S&W 460. :lifter

So, how did the trip go?

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I picked up some brass off of the range the other day. I usually pick up a few ( around 50 to 100) each time at the range. I'm not selective ,but take it home clean,deprime, sort buy calicers, etc. Much of it I don't load,but this last batch had about 30 .45 long colt and one .460 S&W...holy shit that piece of brass is nearly as big as a 45-70. I know you enjoy shooting that one.

[MAB32]

Maybe I am missing something here. I would think a rifle would be better than a handgun Blitzzz. I would think that the heavy recoil of that handgun would put you off target after the first round and disrupt your aimingand getting back on target as he is running towards you. All this and maybe the fact that the place you are going won't except rifles just handguns?


But then again it is only a bear charging you and Adrenalin will quick in and with any handgun, you probablywill be able to get all ammo off on target in 1-2 seconds?

[HOLLiS]

Maybe I am missing something here. I would think a rifle would be better than a handgun Blitzzz. I would think that the heavy recoil of that handgun would put you off target after the first round and disrupt your aimingand getting back on target as he is running towards you. All this and maybe the fact that the place you are going won't except rifles just handguns?


But then again it is only a bear charging you and Adrenalin will quick in and with any handgun, you probablywill be able to get all ammo off on target in 1-2 seconds?

I was trying to find the article/photo of a brown bear that charged a man on the street that the man live on. The claws of the bear was almost the size of the man's finger. He used a pistol.

Pistols can be made to greatly reduce recoil. I have a 44 Mag, this is very mild to shoot, compensated and ported. Sometimes carrying a rifle is awkward and not practical. I carry the 44 mag when I hunt as my back up weapon. I hunt with rifle and bow. We do have pesky black bears and cougars where I live. If browns lived need me, I think I would carry a bigger cannon.


Found one link.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/bears/story/897940.html

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

My biggest pistol is .44 mag but I normally shoot .44spl.
Hollis is right about all the porting and such. Shooting a baer with a pistol wouldn't be my first choice.
Pistol for bear is usually a "back up" gun for a charging Bear when the conditions preclude effective use of a rifle. ie: close quarters on a wounded attacking bear in the brush/bush, then a large bore pistol come in nicely. Like the Tiger hunters of old carried a Hodah .60 nitro express.
The guy credited with the most grizzly kills in the US was done with a .32 cal cap and ball pistol, close range under the jaw through the brain bucket was his favorite method. Go figure....

[Buffalobob]

Two things to consider with the 460 S&W.

If you always load with the 460 case and do not use either the 44 LC or 454 case then the carbon ring that develops in the chamber will not be a problem.

The 44 LC shot cartridges are not enough for reliable kills on ruffed grouse. I use 8 grains of Trail Boss and a 185 grain Berry plated bullet. At night or when actively hunting, I have full power loads with a bullet appropriate for bear and then if a grouse is spotted I switch to the cowboy action load.

The ported 460 is mild enough recoil that you can hold a flashlight in one hand and shoot accurately with only one hand. Good enough to damage a skunk at 30 yards at night. The muzzle flash is not blinding if you have a strong LED flashlight. Major drawback is the need to get your ear muffs on before firing.

[incarcerated]

triQshot, is that you?
Phone home!

[triQshot]

lol, I wish that was me...sadly no. Sorry I have not got around to replying to that PM. Been busy with out of area details....and I sleep more than anything.

sold the S&W 460....

a) expensive ammo
b) brass casing would get stuck (have to beat them out with a hammer and screwdriver)
c) picked up a H&K USP .45 :eek:

[incarcerated]

Glad to hear you're in one piece!

[triQshot]

yea, the trip is being planned for the next summer......just wanted to get a head start on the gun.

The problems I had with the 460 were ammo and cost. I don't know if it was just the batch of ammo I was shooting, or me.

-Hornaday (brass) kept jamming and fouling up after the first set of five. I could not extract the brass with WD40. So I went redneck on it and used a hammer and screwdriver to beat the brass out.

-Corbon (brass) did the same thing after the first set of five.

-Federal ammo, extracted fine and never had a problem. (nickel)


The problem with the extracting made me go, "hmmm." So I sold it and picked up the .45, think its the better deal.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

As to the problem with the bras I have two thoughts.
1. generally when rounds are too hot the expansion of the brass in the chamber causes it not to want to be extracted.
2. if you reload the brass the resizing and careful powder measure will probably stop yhe problem.

[mojaveman]

triQshot, is that you?
Phone home!

Holy Toledo!

What territory was that picture taken in? I didn't think that those boars got that big. It almost looks like one for the record. I wonder what it was shot with.

[ES 96]

Holy Toledo!

What territory was that picture taken in? I didn't think that those boars got that big. It almost looks like one for the record. I wonder what it was shot with.

It's not as big as it seems. It looks as if the hog was put up on the berm above the road with the camera's lens close to it and with the fellow/truck in the back further away. Classic superimposition.

Incarcerated: Nice boar though, what does it *really* measure at?

[SF-TX]

Something to consider in your planning:

Hunters Reminded that Hunting is Prohibited in Glacier National Park

Date: October 9, 2009
Contact: Amy Vanderbilt, 406 888-5838
Contact: Wade Muehlhof, 406 888-7895

WEST GLACIER, MONT. – With the opening of various hunting seasons, Glacier National Park officials remind hunters that NO hunting of any kind is permitted within the park. It is the hunters’ responsibility to ensure that they are NOT hunting within park boundaries, even if the boundary is not clearly marked or indicated.

Federal Regulations at Title 36 CFR, Chapter 1, Part 2, Sect. 2.4 (b) strictly prohibit the killing or removal of any animal, living or dead, from inside the park. Taking and removing any animal parts, including shed antlers, is also prohibited.

Hunters may not pursue, dress out, or transport legally wounded or killed animals that end up within park boundaries unless they are accompanied by a park ranger. Hunters should call park headquarters at 406-888-7800 to report such incidents and to arrange for a ranger escort.

Firearms are NOT permitted anywhere in the park’s backcountry. Unloaded weapons may be transported through the park in vehicles when they are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use, including having ammunition separated from weapons while in the park.

Violators are investigated and aggressively prosecuted and are subject to penalties including fines, restitution, and the forfeiture of vehicles, equipment and personal property associated with the violations.

Park rangers operate random check stations during hunting season to verify compliance with hunting and firearms regulations. Rangers also combine wildlife research monitoring flights with hunting patrols and other plain-clothes surveillance techniques to prevent poaching within the park.

Superintendent Chas Cartwright stated, “The public is also a valuable tool in protecting the park’s wildlife. Visitors and area residents who observe illegal or suspicious hunting activity are encouraged to report it.” Call park headquarters at 406-888-7800; after hours, call the Flathead County Sheriff’s Office at 406-758-5610 or 1-800-TIP-MONT (1-800-847-6668).

Reporting parties do not have to identify themselves and all reports are kept confidential. “Rewards can be paid for information leading to the arrest and / or conviction of individuals who violate Glacier’s hunting regulations,” said Cartwright.

The use of bugles, animal/varmint calls, audio attractants, or any artificial or natural means of attracting wildlife (including antler rattling, bugling, or wolf howling imitations) are also prohibited in the park.

Cartwright also noted that fall visitors use trails located near the park’s boundaries and hunters should use caution when hunting near the park’s borders.

Hunters should also be familiar with the following park boundaries:

* Along the North Fork of the Flathead River, from the Canadian border south to the Middle Fork confluence, the park’s west boundary runs down the middle of the main channel of the river.
* Along the Middle Fork of the Flathead River, from the North Fork confluence to Java, the park’s southern boundary is located at the normal high water mark on the park side of the river.
* Also on the Middle Fork of the Flathead River, from Java Creek to Summit Creek, (Essex/Walton area to the Blackfeet Nation boundary) the park boundary is located 100 feet north of the center of the Burlington Northern/Santa Fe Railroad tracks.

For further information, please call park headquarters at 406-888-7800.

http://www.nps.gov/glac/parknews/news09-74.htm

[mojaveman]

It's not as big as it seems. It looks as if the hog was put up on the berm above the road with the camera's lens close to it and with the fellow/truck in the back further away. Classic superimposition.

Incarcerated: Nice boar though, what does it *really* measure at?

That's still a good sized boar compared to the ones I've seen around my parts. They don't get very big in my neck of the woods.