View Full Version : 5 Alabama police officers fired
jillyz12
05-21-2009, 11:06
By now, most people have probably seen this video, but if not, here's a link:
C:\Documents and Settings\a033761\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files\Content.Outlook\5MVUJOPE\5 Alabama police officers fired over beating caught on camera - CNN com#cnnSTCVideo (2).html
Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with what those officers did? I'd really like to know, because I get the feeling my co-workers think there's something seriously wrong with me in this matter. I can't help it...the suspect ran from the police, endangering lives over a 50 mile area and very nearly killed a cop...intentionally, it appeared to me. Should I feel badly because I don't feel pity for criminals?
I don't want to think I'm hard-hearted, but what person with a working brain doesn't know that if you attempt murder on a policer officer, all of his brothers are going to come down on you feet first????
MARSOC0211
05-21-2009, 11:32
Post the actual web link, not your C drive storage location...
Team Sergeant
05-21-2009, 11:35
Post the actual web link, not your C drive storage location...
LOL, that's a first....;)
jillyz12
05-21-2009, 12:02
Post the actual web link, not your C drive storage location...
Sorry....I never claimed to be computer-literate. :p How about this:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/20/alabama.police.beating/
Can't say the guy did not deserve a beating, but professional conduct must be observed at all times by law enforcement. Kung-fu flying baton attacks to the ass and dog piling isn't needed to detain a guy that just flew out the driver's side window of a rolling van and hit the ground already unconscious. He probably didn't even notice the beat down anyway.
metelliana
05-21-2009, 12:19
Doesn't it go something like:"Be careful when chasing monsters, lest you become one yourself."
metelliana
MARSOC0211
05-21-2009, 12:28
Concur with SFO however,
Officer with baton: +10 for excellent reaction time
All Officers: -10 for judgment
Cameras are excellent tools, but they will damn you in a heart beat
Cameras are excellent tools, but they will damn you in a heart beat
+ 1...and I might add...here come the lawsuits :munchin
Doesn't it go something like:"Be careful when chasing monsters, lest you become one yourself."
metelliana
IMVHO, NO, given as reason the sheep/wolves/sheepdogs Theory.
Intentionally threatening a Law Enforcement Officer is not the frame of mind I really want living next door to me and my family...how about you?
Quite simple to me, as I have the highest respect for those who risk their lives daily to remove this type of scum from Our world. :munchin
Holly
greenberetTFS
05-21-2009, 14:24
[QUOTE=echoes;266013]IMVHO, NO, given as reason the sheep/wolves/sheepdogs Theory.
Intentionally threatening a Law Enforcement Officer is not the frame of mind I really want living next door to me and my family...how about you?
Quite simple to me, as I have the highest respect for those who risk their lives daily to remove this type of scum from Our world. :munchin
Holly[/QUOTE/
Holly's right, I agree with her 100%.....:rolleyes: These guys lay down their lives every day and that jerk just got was coming to him..............:mad:
GB TFS :munchin
Team Sergeant
05-21-2009, 15:13
+ 1...and I might add...here come the lawsuits :munchin
We all know that's coming.....
The LEO's need to stand together on how morons should be treated when they attempt to kill or kill a fellow LEO....
If this goes national of which I'm sure it will. I say all LEO's (Every LEO in the country, state, county and city) call in sick for a week or so..... that should do it....
Smokin Joe
05-21-2009, 15:45
We all know that's coming.....
The LEO's need to stand together on how morons should be treated when they attempt to kill or kill a fellow LEO....
If this goes national of which I'm sure it will. I say all LEO's (Every LEO in the country, state, county and city) call in sick for a week or so..... that should do it....
Ahhh the blue flu.... it has worked for other agencies... but it is few and far between.
By now, most people have probably seen this video, but if not, here's a link:
C:\Documents and Settings\a033761\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files\Content.Outlook\5MVUJOPE\5 Alabama police officers fired over beating caught on camera - CNN com#cnnSTCVideo (2).html
Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with what those officers did? I'd really like to know, because I get the feeling my co-workers think there's something seriously wrong with me in this matter. I can't help it...the suspect ran from the police, endangering lives over a 50 mile area and very nearly killed a cop...intentionally, it appeared to me. Should I feel badly because I don't feel pity for criminals?
I don't want to think I'm hard-hearted, but what person with a working brain doesn't know that if you attempt murder on a policer officer, all of his brothers are going to come down on you feet first????
As much as this or any other POS deserves a beat down. You just can't beat a Handcuffed or unconscious person. It is what separates us from them.
What those Officers did was not only stupid but completely unprofessional. Their fellow Officers will be paying the price for their mistake for years to come.
monsterhunter
05-21-2009, 19:16
As much as this or any other POS deserves a beat down. You just can't beat a Handcuffed or unconscious person. It is what separates us from them.
What those Officers did was not only stupid but completely unprofessional. Their fellow Officers will be paying the price for their mistake for years to come.
Very well said. I've been in this situation a few times. I know how those officers felt and why they did it. I even think the suspect had it coming, but you just can't do that.
The post pursuit discipline was horrible and it will do more harm than good in the long run. This just makes it easier for the suspects to claim they are victims, feed into conspiracy theories, and convince the ignorant that this is standard procedure.
Utah Bob
05-21-2009, 20:51
Very well said. I've been in this situation a few times. I know how those officers felt and why they did it. I even think the suspect had it coming, but you just can't do that.
The post pursuit discipline was horrible and it will do more harm than good in the long run. This just makes it easier for the suspects to claim they are victims, feed into conspiracy theories, and convince the ignorant that this is standard procedure.
Yup. Like the camera, adrenalin isn't always your friend. When push comes to shove you have to go with your training and discipline. These guys didn't.
Abu-Shakra
05-21-2009, 21:50
WOW. The officers that beat Rodney King think this was excessive.
It's unfortunate they couldn't keep it together.
Damn LEOs and cameras...:D
Stay safe.
Goggles Pizano
05-22-2009, 05:21
As much as I would like to administer a tune up to any scumbag that desperately deserves it this one is a no-go. He is prone in a ditch, no movement, and most likely injured from the accident. Threat is still there and treat him as such, but the dogpile was not necessary and unprofessional. Dive in, secure him, get the medics. Multiple head shots, and repeated stick strikes? C'mon guys, use your heads for more than a hat rack.
When dealing with the scum of the earth like this POS is you have to ask yourself....."Is this A-hole worth my job and my families security?" The defendant nearly killed the officer throwing out the spike strips and chances are many officers were aware of this. You have to fight back the adrenaline and do your best to be a professional. Once the "blue octopus" decends someone has to take charge and be able to pull guys off. The defendant was offering ZERO resistence which is what got the officers into trouble. If he even raised an arm while in the initial contact was made they might be able to articulate his resistence and still have their jobs. Plenty of bad guys go to the hospital before they go to prison and officers still have their jobs.
Tape showed lack of SOP's or at the very least lack of adherence to SOP's for felony car stops as well. (Leadership Failure) To those not in the profession...not one officer has ever been trained in the bum rush tactic of arresting suspects.
Sometimes the camera can be your best friend and other times...
If that guy had been trapped in the van unconscious, and it burst into flames, those exact same officers would have risked their lives to get him out.
Once he swerved at and hit the spike strip officer, deadly force (in PA anyway) would have been authorized under the use of force laws. Any officer there could have then rammed the van, and killed the driver outright. Totally justified to stop his ability to injure or kill others.
Interesting how things work out sometimes...
I have the highest respect for those who risk their lives daily to remove this type of scum from our world.
I have the highest respect for the legal authority of the organizations who perform this onerous task - based upon my personal experiences, those who wear the badge earn my respect on a performance-based individual basis.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
You're in the mix, adrenaline and momentum are driving you forward, one of your guys almost get killed by some scumbag.
All of sudden you're suppose too STOP! Click your heels three times and treat the SOB according to someone who ain't NEVER done jack.:rolleyes:
Do something to one of my guys...I'll be shoveling shit some where making minimum wage and LMAO!:lifter
Stay safe.
BTW...If I have treat one my guys, don't be the SOB that caused it!:cool:
Smokin Joe
05-22-2009, 10:39
This is a prime example on why you need to train the shit out of your people on what to do after the pursuit.
After a pursuit, EVERYONE wants to run up to the car and jerk the bastard out of the pilot window. But more often than not it will only get you into trouble; whether the guy gets ripped out of the car and someone beats the shit out of him on camera or the BG is lying in wait so he can get a contact shot on you with a concealed pistol.
Once the pursuit is over treat the stop as a high risk stop..... because IT IS ONE! Call the dude out, if he doesn't come put treat it as a barricade and go from there. No scum bag is EVER worth your life, your family, your job, nor you pension.
Just my .02 cents
metelliana
05-22-2009, 12:29
Quite simple to me, as I have the highest respect for those who risk their lives daily to remove this type of scum from Our world. :munchin
Holly
I respect our LEO's, I simply cannot condone the actions of these men.
Metelliana
STR8SHTR
05-22-2009, 16:59
This is a prime example on why you need to train the shit out of your people on what to do after the pursuit.
After a pursuit, EVERYONE wants to run up to the car and jerk the bastard out of the pilot window. But more often than not it will only get you into trouble; whether the guy gets ripped out of the car and someone beats the shit out of him on camera or the BG is lying in wait so he can get a contact shot on you with a concealed pistol.
Once the pursuit is over treat the stop as a high risk stop..... because IT IS ONE! Call the dude out, if he doesn't come put treat it as a barricade and go from there. No scum bag is EVER worth your life, your family, your job, nor you pension.
Just my .02 cents
Exactly SJ!!
Controlling your post chase emotions is critical and will save your life and others. Going into a post chase high risk stop gives you an opportunity to slow down, breathe, take in what's going on, process it and get your emotions under control. When I first started in this business over twenty years ago that was the thing to do at the end of a chase, not any more. With the training that our members are receiving today they are better and safer.
I have no problem working under the eye of a camera as I had one for six years when I was assigned to the interdiction team. It saved me ten times more than it hurt me. The key is controlling yourself and your emotions. It's nothing personal, it's just business.
Of course the ejection through the window was nice. :cool:
There is no honor in beating an unconscious man.
There is no honor in beating an unconscious man.It all depends on the situation plus, who says he was unconscious?:)
Stay safe.
Abu-Shakra
05-23-2009, 00:46
My buddy is a police officer. I asked him if he had heard about this; he hadn't. I explained what happened. He said "That's why we don't have cameras in our cars".
In this instance, good idea.
Goggles Pizano
05-23-2009, 05:21
It all depends on the situation plus, who says he was unconscious?:)
Stay safe.
Exactly. Thank you Guy.
jillyz12
05-23-2009, 08:52
My buddy is a police officer. I asked him if he had heard about this; he hadn't. I explained what happened. He said "That's why we don't have cameras in our cars".
In this instance, good idea.
I forgot to add in my first post that this incident actually took place about a year ago. The video only now surfaced, and apparently the suspect had no idea that he'd been beaten before this. So, what's the big deal?
But rest assured he and his attorneys will milk it for all it's worth. :rolleyes:
Jill
Abu-Shakra
05-23-2009, 09:21
I forgot to add in my first post that this incident actually took place about a year ago. The video only now surfaced, and apparently the suspect had no idea that he'd been beaten before this. So, what's the big deal?
But rest assured he and his attorneys will milk it for all it's worth. :rolleyes:
Jill
A year ago!! :eek: And now it's surfaced......WTF?
So, what's the big deal?
An opinion on such incidents was offered by a L.A. County Sheriff deputy last month.
<<SNIP>>
Last night [2 April 2009], I had the chance to talk to a sheriff's deputy....It was his opinion that...the biggest issues his department faces are antiquated equipment and the political and public relations fall out that comes when some of his colleagues forget their training and get over zealous. (My sense was that he was being frank.)
<<SNIP>>
IMO, the vicarious sense of exhilaration that may come from witnessing suspects "getting what they deserve" is highly problematic.
CoLawman
05-23-2009, 11:16
There has been studies on the physiological and psychological effects of just such an event. Too bad the courts do not recognize that the offending officers are victims of the chemical imbalances coursing through their veins at the very moment the target (scumbag on ground) presents himself.
This narced state is not unique to LE. Soldiers in combat, and husbands catching someone in bed with their wife are all victimized by this "heat of passion" brought about by a traumatic witnessing of an event or an occurrence.
Of those, homicide is the only instance where "hear of passion" is considered allowed as a defense for one's actions. I can assure you I too have been victimized by this phenomenon! The hang over occurs within moments with this clear realization that what just occurred was wrong.
Guy did I ever tell you I love you?
I'm thinking firing these 5 guys was an attempt by the department to be pre-emptive.
Maybe its just me, but knowing how these jobs go - I expect this is only the beginning for that department. In will swoop the civil rights attorneys, federal agencies, and a plethora of "watchdog" groups all clamoring to focus on the bigger issue - the departmental cover up.
Every active/retired officer, supervisor and civilian will be interviewed as to who knew about the tape, who "doctored" or cut the tape, who signed it into evidence, who has ever heard about the full tape and who they heard it from, while rumors abound over who is giving up who etc...... and then expect EVERY departmental tape to be pulled so as to search for possible "patterns".
Simple fact is, most departments don't or can't train their officers on the effects or reality of what its like to pursue a fleeing felon at high speeds thru a crowded metropolitan area lights and sirens, alight from a police vehicle, chase someone thru other peoples houses, down alleys and then catch them and not want to crush their fucking skull in.
It is usually at the second of apprehension that a shoot, stab, fight, or flight mechanism kicks in for the offender - and dictates if he is shot, has his fucking skull crushed or is cuffed and tossed into the wagon. However, once injured, unconscious, or they give up - like it or not - it is over.
These 5 guys just let a few seconds of emotion after a pursuit take control at the scene, and those few seconds have now reshaped theirs and more importantly, their entire families lives - over some piece of shit who I'm guessing won't live to see his 40th birthday anyway.
I'm thinking firing these 5 guys was an attempt by the department to be pre-emptive.
Maybe its just me, but knowing how these jobs go - I expect this is only the beginning for that department. In will swoop the civil rights attorneys, federal agencies, and a plethora of "watchdog" groups all clamoring to focus on the bigger issue - the departmental cover up.
Every active/retired officer, supervisor and civilian will be interviewed as to who knew about the tape, who "doctored" or cut the tape, who signed it into evidence, who has ever heard about the full tape and who they heard it from, while rumors abound over who is giving up who etc...... and then expect EVERY departmental tape to be pulled so as to search for possible "patterns".
Simple fact is, most departments don't or can't train their officers on the effects or reality of what its like to pursue a fleeing felon at high speeds thru a crowded metropolitan area lights and sirens, alight from a police vehicle, chase someone thru other peoples houses, down alleys and then catch them and not want to crush their fucking skull in.
It is usually at the second of apprehension that a shoot, stab, fight, or flight mechanism kicks in for the offender - and dictates if he is shot, has his fucking skull crushed or is cuffed and tossed into the wagon. However, once injured, unconscious, or they give up - like it or not - it is over.
These 5 guys just let a few seconds of emotion after a pursuit take control at the scene, and those few seconds have now reshaped theirs and more importantly, their entire families lives - over some piece of shit who I'm guessing won't live to see his 40th birthday anyway.
Sir,
Great synopsis of the situation! Thank you for your post!
Holly
N0-go from me on beating a cuffed semi-conscios scumbag.
I know they are only cops, but do have a modicum of training.
Excitement, adrenaline, testosterone, whatever.
Professionalism trumps.
I have stood between bloodthirsty CIDG after a firefight and protected a badly wounded NVA. He died, but I did what I could.
Why? Intel asset and rules of engagement. He was out of the fight.
N0-go from me on beating a cuffed semi-conscios scumbag.Unless he cuffed himself while driving, he was NOT cuffed.
I know they are only cops, but do have a modicum of training.
Excitement, adrenaline, testosterone, whatever.
Professionalism trumps.We agree to disagree then...
I have stood between bloodthirsty CIDG after a firefight and protected a badly wounded NVA. He died, but I did what I could.
Why? Intel asset and rules of engagement. He was out of the fight.Did you guys have triage back then? If the enemy's going to die...I can find some thing else to do instead of protecting him.
Guy did I ever tell you I love you? Nope however, I some what feel what you endure on a daily basis. Every SOB that runs from the cops know the rules if caught....:D
Stay safe.
charlietwo
05-24-2009, 00:41
Professionalism trumps.
That sums it up quite well. There will always be a number of unprofessional members within professional organizations.
I would argue Cops should be suit-proof 99% of the time, regardless of suspensions and firings. Not an easy job, and f*** the lawyers who think it is.
monsterhunter
05-24-2009, 16:11
These guy knew better. To me, this is the bottom line. Their training from the very beginning tells them this is wrong. Common sense tells them it's wrong. This is a lack of self discipline in a post pursuit. This can be analyzed to death, but I refuse to believe that they didn't know better. Antiquated equipment has nothing to do with it (often smaller departments have better more modern equipment from grants, and it easier to equip a handful than equip thousands).
Some of my equipment is older than I wish, but it works. LASD has some of the most modern stuff thrown at patrol as well. Not to say there isn't better stuff out there. Some units are equipped better than others within the department as well. Money is tight, but things aren't that bad over here.
Looking back on what I said before: The suspect may have had it coming, but you can't do that. Politicians and chiefs may jump the gun in order to save face and distance themselves from problems on their own department. Looks to me like a bottom to top screw up. Done with rant.
The Birmingham PD Chief said it all - "We can do better than that."
Richard's $.02 :munchin
These guy knew better. To me, this is the bottom line. Their training from the very beginning tells them this is wrong. Common sense tells them it's wrong. This is a lack of self discipline in a post pursuit. This can be analyzed to death, but I refuse to believe that they didn't know better.There is a big-fucking-difference between TRAINING & REALITY!!!!!!!:mad:
No training I've ever been through "trained" me for the possibility of dying over here however; I do "realize" the possibility!
If a person gets injured and calls on me?...DO NOT be the individual in my way when I start moving forward too render aid.:cool:
I have/wear a patch that says:
DO NO HARM
DO KNOW HARM
SOB almost killed a cop and all of sudden he's a victim?:confused:
Stay safe.
monsterhunter
05-25-2009, 02:28
There is a big-fucking-difference between TRAINING & REALITY!!!!!!!:mad:
No training I've ever been through "trained" me for the possibility of dying over here however; I do "realize" the possibility!
If a person gets injured and calls on me?...DO NOT be the individual in my way when I start moving forward too render aid.:cool:
I have/wear a patch that says:
DO NO HARM
DO KNOW HARM
SOB almost killed a cop and all of sudden he's a victim?:confused:
Stay safe.
Guy, I believe this will be my last post on the subject; however, I'll address your reply as straight forward as I can in a public forum.
The suspect is no victim. Personally, if they threw him in front of a moving train, I wouldn't care at all. Professionally, I wouldn't let it happen because I'm stuck with the ROE. I'm also used to media and several wanna-be sidewalk attorneys at the end of these as well, which tends to mediate the adrenaline rush. The masses are asses, but we're stuck with dealing with their hypersensitivity over the well being of monsters.
I sympathize with the officers to a degree, because I know how they feel and can understand why they reacted as they did. Their actions are going to cost them and some of the rest of us out of a public backlash.
It's to bad too. Nobody seemed to care when a bunch of civilians caught up with the "night stalker" back in the 80's. They kicked his ass to everyone's delight.
I agree with training vs. reality, but I feel we all have to develop a mind set where we're thinking ahead of potential outcomes. I'm not talking about hesitation in a tactical situation, but something more like this.
If it were my way, we would all be equipped with helicopter gunships. Pursuits would last as long as it took the airship to arrive. It's not up to me and were stuck with what we have along with those in charge. Every time somebody goes beyond our imposed limitations, we become saddled with more policy and more civilian oversight.
Stay safe.
Fiercely Loyal
05-25-2009, 04:15
Do something to one of my guys...I'll be shoveling shit some where making minimum wage and LMAO!:lifter
BTW...If I have treat one my guys, don't be the SOB that caused it!
Want to be my team leader? I am in need of someone that offers these qualities.
As many have already commented on previously the camera can both be your friend or your foe. It seems to me that one thing which happened here was that the LEO's involved became used to it's presence and 'forgot' that it was there and neglected to remain cognizant of it's presence. That oversight in their situational awareness will be very costly for them.
One thing I did notice that was lacking was what the other dashboard cameras of other units may or may not have shown of the incident and the fact that there was no footage shown from them.
I generally have a problem with the critique of situations involving decisions made by people who weren't there or involved. Often people who become involved with an incident after the fact have different knowledge and maybe aware of factors which aren't readily apparent to those who were there 'in the moment.'
I realize that a brief back is a useful tool as well as peer review, etc.. Lots can be gained for individual growth through their use as well as valuable experience gained. The problem is when used in relation to punitive measures as I see it is often is how the situation is presented. Those passing judgment aren't necessarily presented with the same amount of info. and the exact same situation to see if their 'judgment' would be similar in the same circumstances. Inevitably, having more information is usually a good thing but; it can often change how experienced individuals would make certain judgment calls.
In the punitive sense and in the absence of gross misconduct, negligence, personal failure, etc.. there is often little to be gained from 'Monday morning quarterbacking' and a 'witch hunt'. It's always easy to throw stones and second guess someone. It's much harder to be there in the moment making a critical decision in seconds with less than optimal amounts of info. This lack of info can result in lethal and life changing consequences for yourself and others around you be they intentional or not. JMLO and $.02..