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View Full Version : Anti-Air Defense What does SF do against such a threat?


Draco771
05-19-2009, 16:17
I've been browsing the forums quite extensively during my free time. (when not doing PT etc.) and something I've found to be interesting, is I haven't found a single bit of info on how ODAs respond to Aerial threats, even though there have been several documented (so I've been told) occasions of which Enemy Aircraft were a serious risk. (Taking airfields, "sneaking" into enemy installations with Air Assets, etc.)

I don't know if this should go into 18B thread, (since 18B are the experts in anything that shoots a projectile) or if it's a general all-around kind of thing ODAs share the task of defeating.

Have you ever had to go against aerial threats?

I've read many many stories posted by the (respectfully) QPs on this board, however, none that mention anything related to aerial threats etc. Whether it be Scout Helicopters, or Soviet type Aircraft (Hind) working aerial patrols etc.

Is there anyone on an ODA who's trained to deal with the threat of Aircraft? (Who's never been ADA prior to going SF)

I don't imagine enemy aircraft being too great of a threat, but it's still a threat none the less. (Considering the fact in the "Air War" American Aircraft destroyed 40% of Saddams ground combat forces, including Republican Guard units, and multiple Static Defenses)

If it's not OPSEC, what do you QPs typically do against Aircraft when they are known to be in the area, and/or known to be headed your way? Do you typically have the means to destroy them? Or do you RLHFYL?

I've just noticed through my studies of SF, and other SOF forces, is that I can't find very much (with exception to Navy SEAL teams who pack a few Stingers nearby from time to time) info on how SOF Ground Forces deal with Aerial Threats, if at all?

There have been several occations of which Enemy Air Assault troops have been deployed against SOF ground forces, including QPs.

It just puzzles me why the threat of Aircraft has never been discussed before. Is it a threat and ODA typically "Ignores" ? or is it "Too small of a threat"?

I know in todays present conflict, Insurgents don't exactly have very much aerial assets to speak of, (if at all) but what about in other AOs? Like in Africa, where multiple countries (that are known to have had SF presence from time to time) have rather decent sized stock piles of Soviet made AH/UHs?

(My last post was on 20090412 it's 20090519 more than 30 days have elapsed since my last post :D:lifter)

Pete
05-19-2009, 17:01
Try to look small.:D

We are US forces.:D

Team Sergeant
05-19-2009, 17:54
That might be because the only SF soldiers (that I know of) that have been killed or wounded by aircraft (other than US Air Force:rolleyes:) is zero.

Trust me, if SF went head to head with a "serious" air threat they'd be packing some anti-air "heat".;) (it take about 30 seconds of training to use a shoulder fired SAM)

Team Sergeant

abc_123
05-19-2009, 18:56
(it take about 30 seconds of training to use a shoulder fired SAM)

Team Sergeant

Going to simulator was a great filler for the training schedule for an afternoon...(could only do it like once or twice a year or it would draw attention..) Go there , get a quick refresher class (or not) and start shooting down pretend airplanes. It would get boring after about an hour or two and then, since we were training to standard and not to time would head home early...LOL

greenberetTFS
05-19-2009, 19:09
It takes about 30 seconds of training to use a shoulder fired SAM./quote/TS

Exactly...............;)

GB TFS :munchin

Stras
05-19-2009, 20:38
It takes about 5 min to translate the cyrilic alphabet on the soviet weapons the first time.. The smart 18B's made notes, so the next time took 30 secs to identify the "safe" and "fire" positions for the rest of the team.

Always remember to pack the BFH device when you work on Soviet weapon systems.

abc_123
05-19-2009, 20:56
It takes about 5 min to translate the cyrilic alphabet on the soviet weapons the first time.. The smart 18B's made notes, so the next time took 30 secs to identify the "safe" and "fire" positions for the rest of the team.

Always remember to pack the BFH device when you work on Soviet weapon systems.

Ahhh, the BFH. Very useful.

The Reaper
05-19-2009, 21:44
Draco:

Not to be overly critical, but do you have a list of stupid qestions with no real relevance to you that you periodically feel like asking, or do you just make them up on the fly?

I am really growing tired of seeing this sort of pressing issue from you. I thought you might have learned your lesson already.

How is your PT and school going? That should be your primary concern, not enemy air attack.

You better get on track, quickly, and stay focused. This is not the place for you to be practicing free association.

If I have to tell you this again, you will be done here.

TR

wet dog
05-20-2009, 01:04
Rambo shot down a Soviet helicopter with a LAW rocket - it was being flown by that guy in the Eddie Murphy film Bevelery Hills Cop, I saw it.

Draco771
05-20-2009, 14:03
Draco:

Not to be overly critical, but do you have a list of stupid questions with no real relevance to you that you periodically feel like asking, or do you just make them up on the fly?

I am really growing tired of seeing this sort of pressing issue from you. I thought you might have learned your lesson already.

How is your PT and school going? That should be your primary concern, not enemy air attack.

You better get on track, quickly, and stay focused. This is not the place for you to be practicing free association.

If I have to tell you this again, you will be done here.

TR

At the time, I thought it was rather relevant, because it was a question that has never been asked on this site. (Or many others)

My school is going good, graduating on the 6th :lifter

And than hopefully going to Job Corps ASAP to get some form of foundation for a skill set civilian side, while I wait for my last MEPS physical to expire.

PT is going good, can almost max PU, and SU in 17-21 age group (going to press for the maxing the 27-31 age group in all events) Running still have room to improve, 1 1/2 minutes to shave off :D

I have a hobby of studying both domestic, and foreign military forces. in particular SOF organizations (primarily).

I've read this board, as well as many others quite extensively. (when not doing PT etc.) and there are a great number of questions I still have that have never been asked on here. I've read threads from start to finish all the way from the first days this site was made to present. (I'm fully up to date on all that's been said in the public view of this site)

But one thing I've realize, is the more a familiarize myself with what SF does (that's been said on this site) the more questions that rise.

Oddly enough, I've found SF to have more "Split" and "Open" ends than any other SOF I've studied. (With Navy SWCCs being second place in the "mystery game")

And respectfully TR, I could be much much worse.

I could be asking how long it'd take if I went SF to drive a Lamborghini with two gorgeous models in the back, and run around like James Bond :D (I'm not going to ask that though LOL There have been enough individuals who've asked the exact, if not similar questions. )

Only questions I've ever asked, are the ones of which have never been asked on here (or many other forums), or the answers (accurately anyways) couldn't be found on google.

But in all honesty, if I asked every question that has come to mind, of which the answers could not be found elsewhere, respectfully, I'd end up making this site go into a total breakdown because of the sheer amount of data that would be expended to make the number of posts for the number of questions I have.

I actually have a "selection process" I put each of my questions through+ length of time I've put into finding the answer too.

Personally I use human resources as a "last ditch" because 9 times out of 10. I'm taking someones time to answer a question that may otherwise have been answered multiple times, but my lack of findings on this question in particular, as well as many others. Have resulted in me asking it. Although I will take larger note in keeping my questions "Off the Radar"

But in regards to "Specialty questions" (Like in reference to a specific choice of mastery. i.e. Infantry, Armor, Artillery, SF, SEALs, etc.) I prefer to go to those with experience in that field, to get the correct as possible information I can obtain.

This website is rather a very good reference to information on all things Special Forces, but there is a great bit of details/questions that I haven't been able to find, which are unknown if no ones ever "thought to ask" or if the answers to such questions would be violation of OPSEC.

The topic of how SF deals with Aerial Threats was simply one of those things I was curious about.

Reason that brought it into mind, was on another forum. I spoke to a retired British SAS, who served in a co-op mission with an ODA serving under NATO during the 90's. In the particular AO, they ended up scrubbing the mission half way through, because a group of Helicopter Troops (Air Assault) had begun landings in the fields nearby a FOB the ODA had set up.

And we ended up joking on how if Anti-Air Missiles were available, the enemy combatants would have never been able to land as close as they did, let alone would have been alive attack the FOB they were running with the SAS. Due to a basic fact, that the Stinger Missile System, as well as several Russian AA Missile Systems have average ranges of 1-3 miles out.

And it had puzzled me, if ODAs even have members trained to operate, let alone, even equip themselves with Anti-Air weaponry, even if just to shoot down enemy combatants landing via a rotary aircraft, to simply kill them before they even have a chance to land.

And talking more and more with the particular SAS, and his involvement while serving with ODAs had brought even more questions as to whether or not ODAs even care about the threat of aircraft. Largest of all, an AH, or a UH transporting enemy combatants into the AO.

That's generally what had sparked my interest in asking this particular question.

Pete
05-20-2009, 14:44
A question for you:

When was the last time US ground forces were attacked by enemy air assets?

The US pays a lot of money for a good AF.

The Reaper
05-20-2009, 14:54
At the time, I thought it was rather relevant, because it was a question that has never been asked on this site. (Or many others)

My school is going good, graduating on the 6th :lifter

And than hopefully going to Job Corps ASAP to get some form of foundation for a skill set civilian side, while I wait for my last MEPS physical to expire.

PT is going good, can almost max PU, and SU in 17-21 age group (going to press for the maxing the 27-31 age group in all events) Running still have room to improve, 1 1/2 minutes to shave off :D

I have a hobby of studying both domestic, and foreign military forces. in particular SOF organizations (primarily).

I've read this board, as well as many others quite extensively. (when not doing PT etc.) and there are a great number of questions I still have that have never been asked on here. I've read threads from start to finish all the way from the first days this site was made to present. (I'm fully up to date on all that's been said in the public view of this site)

But one thing I've realize, is the more a familiarize myself with what SF does (that's been said on this site) the more questions that rise.

Oddly enough, I've found SF to have more "Split" and "Open" ends than any other SOF I've studied. (With Navy SWCCs being second place in the "mystery game")

And respectfully TR, I could be much much worse.

I could be asking how long it'd take if I went SF to drive a Lamborghini with two gorgeous models in the back, and run around like James Bond :D (I'm not going to ask that though LOL There have been enough individuals who've asked the exact, if not similar questions. )

Only questions I've ever asked, are the ones of which have never been asked on here (or many other forums), or the answers (accurately anyways) couldn't be found on google.

But in all honesty, if I asked every question that has come to mind, of which the answers could not be found elsewhere, respectfully, I'd end up making this site go into a total breakdown because of the sheer amount of data that would be expended to make the number of posts for the number of questions I have.

I actually have a "selection process" I put each of my questions through+ length of time I've put into finding the answer too.

Personally I use human resources as a "last ditch" because 9 times out of 10. I'm taking someones time to answer a question that may otherwise have been answered multiple times, but my lack of findings on this question in particular, as well as many others. Have resulted in me asking it. Although I will take larger note in keeping my questions "Off the Radar"

But in regards to "Specialty questions" (Like in reference to a specific choice of mastery. i.e. Infantry, Armor, Artillery, SF, SEALs, etc.) I prefer to go to those with experience in that field, to get the correct as possible information I can obtain.

This website is rather a very good reference to information on all things Special Forces, but there is a great bit of details/questions that I haven't been able to find, which are unknown if no ones ever "thought to ask" or if the answers to such questions would be violation of OPSEC.

The topic of how SF deals with Aerial Threats was simply one of those things I was curious about.

Reason that brought it into mind, was on another forum. I spoke to a retired British SAS, who served in a co-op mission with an ODA serving under NATO during the 90's. In the particular AO, they ended up scrubbing the mission half way through, because a group of Helicopter Troops (Air Assault) had begun landings in the fields nearby a FOB the ODA had set up.

And we ended up joking on how if Anti-Air Missiles were available, the enemy combatants would have never been able to land as close as they did, let alone would have been alive attack the FOB they were running with the SAS. Due to a basic fact, that the Stinger Missile System, as well as several Russian AA Missile Systems have average ranges of 1-3 miles out.

And it had puzzled me, if ODAs even have members trained to operate, let alone, even equip themselves with Anti-Air weaponry, even if just to shoot down enemy combatants landing via a rotary aircraft, to simply kill them before they even have a chance to land.

And talking more and more with the particular SAS, and his involvement while serving with ODAs had brought even more questions as to whether or not ODAs even care about the threat of aircraft. Largest of all, an AH, or a UH transporting enemy combatants into the AO.

That's generally what had sparked my interest in asking this particular question.

How is this topic relevant to a high school kid who has yet to be accepted by the service? The odds of you making it to an SF ODA are about the same as me going into space.

There are indeed many questions that have not been asked here. Mostly because they are irrelevant. And the purpose of this board is not for you to pad your post count by asking irrelevant questions in order to satisfy your own idle curiosity. You need to focus on your immediate objective and stop getting down into the weeds on issues of no consequence to you. You are not a peer. We are not your buddies to BS with. Focus.

And respectfully TR, I could be much much worse.

Not for long. If you are failing to read my intent, it is probably for the best anyway. SAOAFR.

TR

csquare
05-20-2009, 15:11
Ultimate PT Goal:
500 Push-ups 1 hour - Day 1
500 Sit-ups 1 hour - Day 2
8 Mile Run 84 minute - Day 3
500 Crunches 1 hour - Day 4
500 Pull-ups 1 hour - Day 5
I wish to be amongst the most physically fit men to walk this Earth.
^^^Five day event ultimate physical fitness goal^^^


I'm sorry, but I call BS on this ultimate PT goal. You want to run 8 miles in 84 minutes? That is a 10:30 per mile pace. Push yourself away from the video game and grow up young man.......

abc_123
05-20-2009, 15:34
Just wondering if our young Draco can simply walk away from this thread and live to post another day or will he feel compelled to try and get in the last word and get banned.:munchin

sleepyhead4
05-20-2009, 15:41
My intention is not to dog pile on you Draco, but set realistic goals/views for PT, future, and life. Just because you can do hundreds of pushups, sit ups and pull ups doesn't make you a PT stud. And when someone gives you an advice/correction, don't retort with a thesis on how great you are because you are trying to improve yourself everyday by gaining knowledge while taking breaks from PT. Just shut up, take the advice/correction, and drive forth.

This one phrase when taken to heart will help you in the future and life, more than you'll ever realize: "No excuses."

7624U
05-20-2009, 15:45
Draco we dont need ADA unless its against jets, and in that case our fighters will smoke them as soon as they take off. As for the rest of the threats our Antitank missles can also shoot down Aircraft.
Have a very SF day :D

Atilla
05-20-2009, 16:50
Before I get accused I wanted to let everyone know (Especially for those of you who have dubbed me their favorite wannabe) that Draco is not an alias username that I use. Similar thick headed style but not me. Just wanted to clarify, walking back off the range now.:lifter

Enjoying :munchin when its not me in the crosshairs.

Draco,

Listen to Sleepyhead and TR, they are wise individuals and they give great advice that believe it or not is geared to your best interest.

Again to my favorite mentor (he knows who he is), I am not Draco.

charlietwo
05-20-2009, 17:02
Going to simulator was a great filler for the training schedule for an afternoon...(could only do it like once or twice a year or it would draw attention..) Go there , get a quick refresher class (or not) and start shooting down pretend airplanes. It would get boring after about an hour or two and then, since we were training to standard and not to time would head home early...LOL

Haha... don't give away all of the secrets about team life :)

Pete
05-20-2009, 17:18
Haha... don't give away all of the secrets about team life :)

Gunners Red---eye......:D

OK - so I just dated myself.

Still looking for my Soviet Horde slide - loved the Chant & Shout Battalions.

7624U
05-20-2009, 17:32
AB get hold of my M240 bipod legs and hold them over your head make sure you keep your arms fully extended STEADY!!!

Pete
05-20-2009, 17:49
AB get hold of my M240 bipod legs and hold them over your head make sure you keep your arms fully extended STEADY!!!

Can AB button his collar first?

I've seen that technique more than once.

ZonieDiver
05-20-2009, 19:06
Just wondering if our young Draco can simply walk away from this thread and live to post another day or will he feel compelled to try and get in the last word and get banned.:munchin

If he runs true to course, he'll chill for a time - almost the exact time imposed upon him, of which he had to be reminded - and then start another thread with some equally inane topic.

Draco - Job Corps is a two year committment for most. That would seem to put your military "ambitions" at bay for quite some time, wouldn't it?

I would highly encourage you to go to Job Corps. Since you have your HS diploma, or will have it, you could pick up a couple of trades in your time there (I would highly recommend construction trades, as you will exit with a skill that is marketable now and in the forseeable future - and has some transferability to SF (18C).

You could also start at a local community college and have a good support system to assist you while attending. This will also give you some time to mature. I think you need a great deal more maturity before you enter the military, or even think of attempting to enter SF.

Also, instead of your "pie in the sky" PT goals, I'd much rather see your current PT results! Perhaps you could update them on your profile on a regular basis, to inform others of your progress, and let people see that you are actually serious about your goals - whatever they may be, they are important to you, not us.

Just some thoughts.

D9
05-20-2009, 19:43
My personal opinion is that the adoption of the ACU was the primary defense of all US ground forces against our primary air threat.

You could be covered in bird shit and nobody would notice.

My 0.02.

:D

Richard
05-20-2009, 22:33
Anti-Air Defense What does SF do against such a threat?

SAFAD and ManPADS and USAF CAP, oh my! ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

SF_BHT
05-20-2009, 23:23
I am not going to say what we had to do for a year. Might start flares flying...:p

wet dog
05-21-2009, 01:32
Son -

"My school is going good, graduating on the 6th...." The word you're looking for is "well". No one does "good".

I might feel 'good', but I'm doing 'well'.

"And than hopefully going to Job Corps ASAP to get some form of foundation for a skill set civilian side, while I wait for my last MEPS physical to expire".

Try to speak with fewer words, and make your intentions known. Consider; "I understand that Job Corp can be a great learning foundation.", or "My MEPS physical is expiring soon."

"PT is going good, can almost max PU, and SU in 17-21 age group (going to press for the maxing the 27-31 age group in all events) Running still have room to improve, 1 1/2 minutes to shave off..."

Alright, that just hurt my head.

"I have a hobby of studying both domestic, and foreign military,..."

Consider, "I have several hobbies, including Military Studies.", or "I find interest in many subjects, what do you enjoy?"

"A man is defined by what he does and how he thinks!"

- That line is from my father, by the way, Happy Birthday Dad!

WhiteOut
05-23-2009, 22:59
null

Team Sergeant
05-24-2009, 10:45
Draco,

If you don't put it out there then it can't get cut off. You're trying too hard.

The forum is "Special Forces Questions", individuals ask questions; Special Forces soldiers (past and present) answer.

Next time you feel froggy jump somewhere else.

Team Sergeant

Utah Bob
05-24-2009, 18:40
The odds of you making it to an SF ODA are about the same as me going into space.

I would think somewhat less actually.

abc_123
05-24-2009, 19:28
The forum is "Special Forces Questions", individuals ask questions; Special Forces soldiers (past and present) answer.

Next time you feel froggy jump somewhere else.

Team Sergeant


An impact area is something that should generally be avoided, even more so when rounds are impacting....At least in my simple mind that's what makes the most sense. Why is it that so many seem to think that an impact area is something that you should hurry to get in the middle of? :confused: