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swpa19
05-15-2009, 10:27
The "Magnum" rifle cartridge came on the scene, roughly about 1912 with the .375 Holland and Holland rifle cartridge. Prior to this there may have been what some would considered Magnum cartridges. They were commonly referred to as Nitro Express Cartridges.

A few of the rounds below represent what was then the "reach out and touch" rounds of their era. The round on the right is for comparison. It is the .358 Norma Magnum.

Ill leave the description and history of the rest to the reader.

But first some trivia or legend. The Sharps rifle and accompanying rounds were said to be so accurate that the marksmen that used them at professional shooting matches were referred to as "Sharps-shooters".

Supposedly this is how the term Sharpshooter came about.

swpa19
05-15-2009, 10:30
Cant tell my left from my right. Should have read Round on the Left.

Buffalobob
05-15-2009, 10:31
The round on the right is for comparison. It is the .358 Norma Magnum.

I take it that you had a lot of trouble with FM 22-5.

swpa19
05-16-2009, 09:24
I take it that you had a lot of trouble with FM 22-5.

Hell, the last time I looked at a 22-5 they were still carrying the M.O.A. for the U.S. RIFLE, CAL. .30 M-1.

HOLLiS
05-16-2009, 09:51
Sampa, On the word sharpshooter. I have read different accounts as the origination of the term. It was used prior to the American Civil War. The USSS, was formed with the name Sharpshooter in the name, but where originally issued Colt revolving rifles. Col. Berdan the founder of that unit, was a very talented competitive shooter prior the war. Sharps' rifle did not get it's real claim to fame until the metallic cartridge period.

There is a good book, the regimental history of the Berdans. I think while it seem reasonable that the name Sharpshooter came from the Sharps rifle, it doesn't appear that way to my reading of history. Maybe someone knows more.

Also with the development of the Magnum round, was the newer smokeless powders.

I found this, it is on the name Magnum, in reference to the .357 Mag.

And where did the Magnum come from? Again, it was Doug Wesson who made the call. The Major was a renowned connoisseur of fine champagne, and in the vintner's world the term "magnum" refers to a slightly larger than standard bottle. When Wesson went out to dine, he never ordered anything less than a magnum bottle, and it seemed to him a natural extension of the term to the slightly larger than standard case of the new cartridge. And so was coined one of the most enduring-and misunderstood-labels in firearms and ammunition history.

I think the Americans are the only ones who use the term Magnum. The British used a different than metric system. Caliber-bullet weight. Example .380-200, .38 S&W loaded with a 200 gr. bullet. (assuming memory is correct)

swpa19
05-16-2009, 12:28
HOLLIS:

I think the Americans are the only ones who use the term Magnum.

British gunsmith used the term MAGNUM in 1913 to describe a round that he invented for Mauser type firearms, he called it the 256 Gibbs Magnum.

Holland and Holland produced quite a few rounds that they referred to as Magnum rounds.

The british also refer to what we commonly call Magnums as Express and Nitro Express.


Sharps' rifle did not get it's real claim to fame until the metallic cartridge period.



The United States Sharps Rifle Model 1859 was a weapon that
fired a breech loaded linen cased cartridge in .52 Caliber. The weapon was loaded by pushing a lever forward and opening the breech. The linen cartridge was inserted into the breech, when the lever was put back into place, it sheared the end of the linen off of the cartridge and automatically fed a percussion cap into place.

The first 9,000 of these weapons went to the Military in the Civil War. They were issued to the 5th New York Zouaves, and Berdans Sharpshooters.

It is true though that Sharps gained most of it notoriety and wealth after the cased rifle cartridge came into prominence.

The first Cartridge to the right of the .358 Mag is a Sharps Cartridge, called the 45-110 straight or 45-110-550.

HOLLiS
05-16-2009, 16:00
Thanks for the heads up on the .256 Gibbs magnum. I heard it as 25 Gibbs. In the states, Magnum is a trade mark of S&W, or so the article says.


BTW, I have a repro of a 1859 Sharps. The original issue to the Berdans (United States Sharpshooters/USSS) was not the Sharps but the .58 Revolving Colt Rifle. It was dropped because of chain firing, cross over ignition to other cylinders . Berdan traded the sword bayonet, normal issue for the '50 Sharps for a socket bayonet and set triggers.

Again thanks for the info. I think nomenclature is pretty interesting.

swpa19
05-16-2009, 16:13
HOLLIS: Cross over firing was commonplace in a lot of C&B pistols. Especially in a combat situation, if the cylinders werent "packed" you would definitely get a surprise.

Nomenclatures are interesting. Most early cartridges had the two and three numerical designators, i.e. 45-110-550. 45 caliber-110 gr Black Powder and 550gr ball.

Except for the 30/06. 30 being the caliber and 1906 the year the cartridge was adapted for the 1903 Springfield. On the surface this would indicate that the rifle came before the cartridge. The adaption of the 1903 Springfield and the 30/06 cartridge is a story all in itself.

The Reaper
05-16-2009, 16:23
HOLLIS: Cross over firing was commonplace in a lot of C&B pistols. Especially in a combat situation, if the cylinders werent "packed" you would definitely get a surprise.

Nomenclatures are interesting. Most early cartridges had the two and three numerical designators, i.e. 45-110-550. 45 caliber-110 gr Black Powder and 550gr ball.

Except for the 30/06. 30 being the caliber and 1906 the year the cartridge was adapted for the 1903 Springfield. On the surface this would indicate that the rifle came before the cartridge. The adaption of the 1903 Springfield and the 30/06 cartridge is a story all in itself.

Except that there was a .30-03, which was the initial round for the 1903 Springfield rifle.

And Magnum is not trademarked by S&W unless it is referring to the .357 or .44 Magnums. H&H's claim predates them by many decades.

TR

swpa19
05-16-2009, 17:21
Except that there was a .30-03, which was the initial round for the 1903 Springfield rifle.

Was wondering who would come up with the answer, should have figured on T.R.

Yes, the original designation was 30-03. The 03 round was just a tad different than the 06, It used a 220 gr round nose bullet that performed horribly. The 06 adaptation used a 150 gr Spitzer bullet. The neck of the 06 cartridge was a bit different also, causing a great number of Springfields to be recalled for rechambering. Rumor has it that there is still about 100 or so Springfields out there still chambered for the 03' round.

Nice article here, including the Pedersen Device:

http://www.lesjones.com/2006/03/17/springfield-1903-trivia-challenge/

Gene Econ
05-16-2009, 21:35
The "Magnum" rifle cartridge came on the scene, roughly about 1912 with the .375 Holland and Holland rifle cartridge. Prior to this there may have been what some would considered Magnum cartridges. They were commonly referred to as Nitro Express Cartridges.

A few of the rounds below represent what was then the "reach out and touch" rounds of their era. The round on the right is for comparison. It is the .358 Norma Magnum.

Ill leave the description and history of the rest to the reader.

But first some trivia or legend. The Sharps rifle and accompanying rounds were said to be so accurate that the marksmen that used them at professional shooting matches were referred to as "Sharps-shooters".

Supposedly this is how the term Sharpshooter came about.


SWPA:

Of course but have you ever evaluated these cartridges you mention by firing them?

If so I for one would be interested in your testing and evaluation. If on the other hand you have never tested these cartridges -- BP, Nitro for Black, Nitro Express, Magnum et. al then just say so and then I may ask what your intent is for the post!

Gene

swpa19
05-17-2009, 05:41
GENE:

I was at one time an ardent cartridge collector. I have fired quite a few of the weapons that chambered the cartridges I collected, but not all for evident reasons.

The weapons I fired were strictly for enjoying a piece of history, not for ballistic or tactical evaluations.

The reason for posting on this thread were ammo related. I thought it would be historically interesting to the viewer and to take part in a discussion of the progession (and sometimes re-gression) of the cased rifle cartridge and its historical ups and downs.

Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking tha tdiscussions about historical ammo such as the the ones talked about here as well as oddities like the "rocket ball" of the Volcanic Pistol to the 7.62 Duplex and Flechette rounds experimented with by the military might be an enertaining and informative thread.

If you're of the opinion that this is an un-informed thread, Ill certainly defer to your expertise.

Gene Econ
05-17-2009, 07:10
GENE:

I was at one time an ardent cartridge collector. I have fired quite a few of the weapons that chambered the cartridges I collected, but not all for evident reasons.

The weapons I fired were strictly for enjoying a piece of history, not for ballistic or tactical evaluations.

The reason for posting on this thread were ammo related. I thought it would be historically interesting to the viewer and to take part in a discussion of the progession (and sometimes re-gression) of the cased rifle cartridge and its historical ups and downs.

Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking tha tdiscussions about historical ammo such as the the ones talked about here as well as oddities like the "rocket ball" of the Volcanic Pistol to the 7.62 Duplex and Flechette rounds experimented with by the military might be an enertaining and informative thread.

If you're of the opinion that this is an un-informed thread, Ill certainly defer to your expertise.

SWPA:

I have no opinion about the thread so don't sweat it. Just was kind of strange to have a post come out of the blue talking about magnums. I simply wondered why.

So please, keep on going. Personally I find all cartridges to be interesting, not just those intended for military purposes.

Gene

swpa19
05-17-2009, 08:41
GENE:

Personally I find all cartridges to be interesting, not just those intended for military purposes.



They are interesting. However from a collectors stand point they start to get expensive. I stopped collecting when I had accumulated most of the more common rounds, and started dumping $25.00 to $50.00 per round.

http://www.ammo-one.com/EXPERIMENTAL-1.html

The research into the history and physical application of the rounds became the fun part, and something I can do without threatening the security of my marriage.

Wives just dont understand.

I have since given away and donated the better part of my collection.

swpa19
05-22-2009, 05:37
The cartridges pictured are: L to R, .358 Norma Magnum, Sharps 45-110 (straight), .577 Snider and an as issued 50-70 Government.

Buffalobob
05-22-2009, 14:15
I went to get some 22 WMR ammo with the poly tip for a Ruger Single Six and for lack of any knowledge and an overload of boredom decided to also buy a box of 22 WRF. That is some strange stuff. Heavy bullet and medium capacity case. It shot all right but not great.

swpa19
05-22-2009, 14:32
Bob

If you just want to hear your Ruger SS just make noise, the WRF is the way to go. Its supposed to be accurate up to 75 yards, but thats being gracious. The .22 LR packs more of a punch than the WRF.

The WMR is still one of the most powerful .22 RFs. It is honestly accurate (moreso with a rifle than a handgun) up to and including 125 yards. I dont know how much punch would be remaining at that distance though.

This info is from a plinker and collector. TR or one of the more knowledgeable Gun Guys can give you more accurate info.

Combat Diver
05-23-2010, 13:25
swpa,

You want to clarifiy how the .22LR has more punch then the WRF. If I remember my 22 RFs the first was the BB, CB, short, long, extra long, long rifle, WRF and then the Winchester Magnum Rimfire. Considering that the standard 40 gr HV bullet for a rifle will give about 1255 FPS/140 FPE. The .22 WRF with a 45 gr bullet will go 1300 fps/169 FPE. The Long Rifle uses a .222" bullet and the WRF/WMR use .224" bullets. The WMR uses a streched WRF case with a 40 gr bullet at 1910 fps/325 fpe from a rifle. Yes, there are some hyper velocity LR loads but as your distance increases the heavier WRF load will still carry more energy down range.

CD