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Team Sergeant
06-29-2004, 16:01
A PS.com member went shooting with the Team Sergeant earlier today.

This member shot a number of TS weapons and from 5 meters, armed with a compact HK.40, fired group after group that could be covered with a nickel with most shots going through the same hole. (even though the same member started loading pistol mags with the bullet facing the wrong direction, this should serve as an indicator as to his prior proficiency level)

He took the targets he had shot to hang on his refrigerator. I’m guessing we’ll see them on here sometime soon…

TS

Sacamuelas
06-29-2004, 16:05
Good Job Roguish Lawyer! :D I recall you saying that you had gotten a .40 HK compact.

Am I right? Gotta be..he has 1837 posts but hasn't been online since 8:00pm last night. NOrmally he would have logged 15 posts by now. LOL

Jack Moroney (RIP)
06-29-2004, 20:43
Originally posted by Team Sergeant

He took the targets he had shot to hang on his refrigerator. I’m guessing we’ll see them on here sometime soon…

TS

If it was RL makes me think that we now know what really happened to those "missing" Bush/Cheney signs. Guess that's one way of keeping them from being heisted. :D

Jack Moroney

The Reaper
06-29-2004, 20:57
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
A PS.com member went shooting with the Team Sergeant earlier today.

This member shot a number of TS weapons and from 5 meters, armed with a compact HK.40, fired group after group that could be covered with a nickel with most shots going through the same hole. (even though the same member started loading pistol mags with the bullet facing the wrong direction, this should serve as an indicator as to his prior proficiency level)

He took the targets he had shot to hang on his refrigerator. I’m guessing we’ll see them on here sometime soon…

TS

A .40?!?!?!

Damn, a conservative with a wife and kids and everything, I would have thought him to be strictly hetero!

Oh well, he is a Kalifornia attorney, so there is that. Probably a miracle he isn't a 9x19 guy.

Colonel, I like the new flash on your avatar!

TR

Sacamuelas
06-29-2004, 22:22
Originally posted by The Reaper

Colonel, I like the new flash on your avatar!
TR

Excuse my ignorance.. but my googleFU is very weak tonight.

The closest I could come to matching Col. Moroney's flash is this.. but with what appears to be an Eagle overlaid over the flash.

Am I right?

The Reaper
06-29-2004, 22:40
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Excuse my ignorance.. but my googleFU is very weak tonight.

The closest I could come to matching Col. Moroney's flash is this.. but with what appears to be an Eagle overlaid over the flash.

Am I right?

Your Google is fine, but the flash was that of 1st Special Warfare Training Group.

TR

Sacamuelas
06-29-2004, 22:43
Ahhh... Thank you Sir.

My copy of the training group flash was as follows... (had a slightly different color pattern:boohoo which threw me off).

NousDefionsDoc
06-29-2004, 23:01
Single shot slow fire?:munchin

Team Sergeant
06-29-2004, 23:02
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Single shot slow fire?:munchin

YUP, he was not yet ready to "run with the big dogs".

NousDefionsDoc
06-29-2004, 23:25
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
YUP, he was not yet ready to "run with the big dogs".

Nothing wrong with that. Gotta crawl before you can run.

Well done counselor.

Jeez TS, a lawyer with a gun? i don't know...:D

Guy
06-30-2004, 07:08
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Nothing wrong with that. Gotta crawl before you can run.

Well done counselor.

Jeez TS, a lawyer with a gun? i don't know...:D

Plus he's in California.:o

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 07:40
Originally posted by Guy
Plus he's in California.:o

but he had to fly to AZ to get to shoot it! LOL What a state you guys live in....:p

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 08:37
:munchin

Guy
06-30-2004, 10:53
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
but he had to fly to AZ to get to shoot it! LOL What a state you guys live in....:p

Sac:
Go ahead and laugh…we will overcome or move to another state. :D

I just need to find some more “VETERANS”, like the one I met yesterday while putting new tires and rims on my SUV. The guy that owns the store is a hell-raiser and veteran when it comes to work ethics.

His son pissed him off and runs out of the office with the dad hot on his heels. The dad couldn’t catch him, so you know what the dad does?

Walks over to the sons’ car…opens the hood, and snatches every spark plug wire off the car engine! I’m thinking, “DAMN! What the hell is going on here”?

The older son that runs the place says to me…”I told him to shut up and to wait until dad was gone, then do it the way he wanted to”!

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 11:01
If you want to find an extraordinary teacher, try a Master Sergeant in the United States Army Special Forces. Holy shit.

This was HK USP .45 Full Size.

[I'll rotate and repost the images later]

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 11:03
And here is a target impacted with HK USP Compact .40. I think it is best for TS to comment on the various holes in the target and how they were created.

Solid
06-30-2004, 11:15
You should use the first photo as your avatar. Keep the sig line for a great combination.

D9
06-30-2004, 11:21
Nice shooting counselor.

Bill Harsey
06-30-2004, 11:25
Good shooting RL! Do you have room for an indoor range in your office? Steel bullet traps work most of the time.

Team Sergeant
06-30-2004, 11:35
RL did quite well first time out.

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 12:43
Originally posted by The Reaper
A .40?!?!?!

Damn, a conservative with a wife and kids and everything, I would have thought him to be strictly hetero!

Oh well, he is a Kalifornia attorney, so there is that. Probably a miracle he isn't a 9x19 guy.

I originally wanted a .45, but was persuaded by an expert that I should walk before I run.

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 12:45
Originally posted by Solid
You should use the first photo as your avatar.

You obviously missed what happened to Air.177. LOL

Air.177
06-30-2004, 12:52
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
You obviously missed what happened to Air.177. LOL
As your Samoan Attorney, I advise you not to post any such thing. Also, I'll have you know that I did not post that, and at any rate, It was a number 4 Buckshot pattern, not a group.:p

Solid
06-30-2004, 13:01
Well, on the subject of avatars- Air should use TR's shot of that piece of meat being annihilated at Blackwater... and keep his sig line, of course.

Solid

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 13:18
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Single shot slow fire?:munchin

Ball and dummy drill

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 13:31
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
And here is a target impacted with HK USP Compact .40. I think it is best for TS to comment on the various holes in the target and how they were created.
LOL... you post a photo of the target where your group was tighter than the Team Sergeant's.. then force him to have to post and explain it himself. HAHAHA

Why didn't you just post the pic and point to your 10 shot group (very nice BTW). Didn't want to take credit for that non-RL quality shootin' huh? LOL
:munchin

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 14:35
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
LOL... you post a photo of the target where your group was tighter than the Team Sergeant's.. then force him to have to post and explain it himself. HAHAHA

Why didn't you just post the pic and point to your 10 shot group (very nice BTW). Didn't want to take credit for that non-RL quality shootin' huh? LOL
:munchin

I am not qualified to comment on any of this. Are you criticizing the Team Sergeant's shooting?

One thing I will say is that neither of these pistols had been zeroed before these shots were taken. And I shot the two on the number 9 by jerking the trigger.

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 14:37
I said nothing of the TS's shooting.
I asked a question is all. :)

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 14:47
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
I said nothing of the TS's shooting.
I asked a question is all. :)

Oh?

LOL... you post a photo of the target where your group was tighter than the Team Sergeant's.. then force him to have to post and explain it himself. HAHAHA

Why didn't you just post the pic and point to your 10 shot group (very nice BTW). Didn't want to take credit for that non-RL quality shootin' huh? LOL

I only posted the targets that make me look good. Believe me, no one wants to mimic "RL-quality shooting"!

There was quite a bit of shooting by the TS with various weapons, and you missed a truly remarkable show. So you might watch yourself. LOL ;)

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 14:57
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I only posted the targets that make me look good.
Yes, I figured that. That is human nature and nothing to be ashamed of. We all have a tendency to do that.

I was told by your mentor that your shots were "all in one hole", so I logically concluded that the 9 ring holes were the TS's ( while obviously having you hit him with a 2x4 to throw off his aim! LOL)

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
So you might watch yourself. LOL ;)
A threat??.. you might want to practice loading your magazines before you get THERE, RL. "pointy-rounded end toward the front" ;) LOL

Team Sergeant
06-30-2004, 14:59
enough.

discuss shooting or discuss it somewhere else.

Jack Moroney (RIP)
06-30-2004, 15:02
[i]Are you criticizing the Team Sergeant's shooting?

[/B] Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen if you might take a suggestion from a geriatrics warrior who has had a lot of experience working with team sergeants, the one thing you do not want to do is ever, ever, ever, ever, criticize the team sergeant. You see the team sergeant runs the team and everyone else is sort of a guest. If, for instance, you think that the team sergeant has a slight flaw somewhere in some obscure skill set, unless you want to find yourself demonstrating your expertise in that skill set or "assisting" the team sergeant in rising above this alleged flaw you best recognize that the team sergeant did not become the team sergeant because he got his credentials off the back of a cheerios box but did in fact rise to all the challenges put before him dispite what you might percieve to be a flaw. Just a suggestion.

Jack Moroney-educated by a lot of Team Sergeants :D

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 15:03
alright...

What did you find was the most difficult part of shooting (consistently) for you RL? For me, it has always been a jerky a trigger pull. I have had to do a lot of dry fire trigger pulls with a penny rested on the front site to overcome my "jerk".

Team sergeant-
What drills do you find are best to train the muscle memory for pistol shooters?

Razor
06-30-2004, 15:40
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
One thing I will say is that neither of these pistols had been zeroed before these shots were taken.

Adjustable sights?

Team Sergeant
06-30-2004, 15:42
Originally posted by Razor
Adjustable sights?

My HK Expert has them, the HK compact does not.

Solid
06-30-2004, 15:56
I remember the first time I shot a .22 bolt action rifle (first time with a rifle, only shotgun experience before). For some reason I didn't notice the hole in the front of the chamber in which you slide the round, so I frustratedly kept trying to put the round in the bottom of the rifle and then close the bolt...

Finally I saw the hole, looked around to make sure nobody had seen me being an idiot, and got on with shooting.

:o

I was very young at the time, at least...

Solid

mffjm8509
06-30-2004, 16:00
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
alright...

What drills do you find are best to train the muscle memory for pistol shooters?

I like to review the 8 fundamentals of pistol marksmanship during a dry fire session, just prior to shooting a variation of the 1st Session of SFAUC markmanship. I use this session myself when I've been unable to get to a range in a while and on anyone new to the team that I want to assess. I also modify this a bit for a warmup on viturally every range.

8 fundamentals:

Stance, Grip, Sight Picture, Sight Alignment, Breath Control, Trigger Control, Follow Through, & Recovery

Dry fire 5-10 minutes from position 3 to position 4

5 meters, Slwo Aimed Fire, Double Action/Single Action, 15 rounds, 3 inch dots

5 meters, Ball and Dummy **, 5 rounds, 3 inch dots

5 meters, Slow Aimed Fire, Double Action/Single Action, 15 rounds, 3 inch dots

7 meters, Slow Aimed Fire, Double Action/Single Action, 15 rounds, 3 inch dots

7 meters, Ball and Dummy **, 5 rounds, 3 inch dots

7 meters, Slow Aimed Fire, Double Action/Single Action, 15 rounds, 3 inch dots

10 meters, Slow Aimed Fire, Double Action/Single Action, 45 rounds, 6 inch dot or 25 meter pistol tgt

15 meters, Slow Aimed Fire, Double Action/Single Action, 45 rounds, 6 inch dot or 25 meter pistol tgt

** note the responsibilty of the coach/loader during BAD firing is to observe the shooter (pistol) to see if any errors in fundamentals can be seen and not to watch for where the bullet impacts.

This works for me and the guys on my team. The variation I use to warm up on virtualy every range is this course without the ball and dumm.


By the way, we outshot all other teams in general markmsanship and stress event during 2/10s last SFAUC training.....just a little brag!

mp

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 16:01
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
What did you find was the most difficult part of shooting (consistently) for you RL? For me, it has always been a jerky a trigger pull. I have had to do a lot of dry fire trigger pulls with a penny rested on the front site to overcome my "jerk".

1. Jerky trigger pull.

2. Keeping gun steady/establishing rhythm for second shot. My left hand would occasionally come off the pistol after firing.

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 16:08
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Ball and dummy drill

IMO, the single most important drill one can do to develop basic pistol maksmanship. When I am in charge, its how we start our day.

Be very careful with this drill boys and girls, if not performed correctly, it can hurt someone. Especially coaches.

That is an excellent group for V&P, well done counselor.

Saca, the TS' group probably looks the same at 25 meters from the holster and so fast you can't see him move.

Guy
06-30-2004, 16:08
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
1. Jerky trigger pull.

Anticipating recoil.

2. Keeping gun steady/establishing rhythm for second shot. My left hand would occasionally come off the pistol after firing.

Some call it the 60/40 grip. 60% grip with the non-firing hand...40% grip with the firing hand.

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 16:14
mff - I like your drills, its basically the same as we do. Why do you do the slow aimed fire before the V&P?

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 16:14
Thank you mffjm.:cool:

I need to start shooting shorter "more likely" pistol ranges when I practice. I started shooting myine at 15 paces (16 yards). Of course, my groups didn't look like RL's.

I found it REALLY made me pay attention to fundamentals if I wanted to have groups.


What stance were you shooting from RL?

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 16:20
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
What stance were you shooting from RL?

Standing, both feet pointed at target.

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 16:22
3-5, 3-5, 3-5

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 16:30
What stance were you shooting from RL?

ROTFLMAO - What is the title of this thread? Only two choices:

Most likely the name of the stance was "Proper AF" as in "Shooter, assume a Proper Aggressive Firing Stance."

The second choice would have involved a jungle boot and the stud's 4th POC - if he comitted a safety violation.

Guy
06-30-2004, 16:31
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Thank you mffjm.:cool:

I need to start shooting shorter "more likely" pistol ranges when I practice. I started shooting myine at 15 paces (16 yards). Of course, my groups didn't look like RL's.

I found it REALLY made me pay attention to fundamentals if I wanted to have groups.


What stance were you shooting from RL?

To begin shooting from that distance...to hard to gauge the fundamentals.

As far as stance... similar to a boxers' stance.

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 16:42
LOL...
Guy, Let me clarify... I didn't "begin" shooting pistols at that range. I have been shooting guns for 20 years. My post was worded badly.

I "began" shooting my latest addition (Kimber .45) at that distance. Just going to have to change the bulk of my practicing from a range of 15 yds down to 5 -7 with it. I will still shoot at the longer distances, just shoot a higher % at the closer ranges.

On stance.. I have always practiced in the stance described by Guy. Jsut wanted to find out what the TS is teaching. I usually have a very experienced shooter with me to watch me and correct my minor mistakes. He has been shooting for over 50 yrs, including in military combat. Not a TS though... :D

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 16:44
As far as stance... similar to a boxers' stance.

Roger that!

Team Sergeant
06-30-2004, 18:33
I only teach one stance, straight on. (iso position for pistol)

You can ask RL where I stand when teaching, and I do NOT recommend anyone teach utilizing this method unless they are a seasoned weapons instructor. (A QP will understand.)

I like to think I can teach as well as I can shoot. There is another QP on here that has witnessed my shooting ability.

MFF,
Your assessment works fine for a professional. Had I run a civilian through that, the first shooting session would be over before the assessment was complete!
(Our HALO ODA was once challenged by the SOT ODA and I happened to have a broken right thumb. There is another QP on this board that was there and can report what transpired that day. It was very amusing)

TS

mffjm8509
06-30-2004, 19:20
I'll try again....

For the guys on that shoot often its just a warm up....

but for my newer guys that dont have much pistol experience then it gets them familiar with firing the pistol and sets them up to make identifiable fundamental mistakes on the first B&D drill if they are going to have problems.....

TS,

I agree that some may not be able to progress to 15 meters as the session dictates. It does give me a chance to evaluate who can progress and who cannot....who needs more B&D and more work at closer ranges with fundamental work from 3 to 4 before progressing to 1-4 work or more advanced CTEs.....


mp

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 19:21
Originally posted by mffjm8509
For the guys that shoot often its basically a
ND?:D

mffjm8509
06-30-2004, 19:22
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
ND?:D

roger, and I appologize....

when shall I report to the board?

mp :(

Team Sergeant
06-30-2004, 19:24
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
ND?:D

????

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 19:29
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
????

LOL- he hit the submit reply button before he was ready.

No board MFF - you are a Team Sergeant, just stand in front of a mirror and give yourself the "Team Sergeant Stare". LOL

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 19:39
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
No board MFF - you are a Team Sergeant, just stand in front of a mirror and give yourself the "Team Sergeant Stare". LOL

I'm a civilian, and yet I am LMAO!!! Good one, NDD.

Bill Harsey
06-30-2004, 19:44
Originally posted by Razor
Adjustable sights? Sights? Boy you city kids have all the good stuff.

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 21:09
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
You can ask RL where I stand when teaching, and I do NOT recommend anyone teach utilizing this method unless they are a seasoned weapons instructor. (A QP will understand.)


Well, RL... do you have some info for the jawbreaker? LOL :munchin

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 21:10
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
You can ask RL where I stand when teaching, and I do NOT recommend anyone teach utilizing this method unless they are a seasoned weapons instructor. (A QP will understand.)

Here is a diagram.

Sacamuelas
06-30-2004, 21:20
Thanks RL. We were typing at the same time. :cool:

Team Sergeant or other QP's-

Why would a civilian not be a suitable subject for the exercises that mffjm has suggested? Please give lil' saca more info on what was meant by this.


On another note- brief back forum has been lonely lately... why not a TS shooting competition story for the episode you described in your prior post. :munchin

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 21:24
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Here is a diagram.

Aaah so. The old telephone pole/railroad tracks technique - very seldom used except by Team Sergeants.:D

Are you left handed RL?

mffjm8509
06-30-2004, 21:29
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Aaah so. The old telephone pole/railroad tracks technique - very seldom used except by Team Sergeants.:D

Are you left handed RL?

Excellent observation

mp

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 21:41
Originally posted by mffjm8509
Excellent observation

mp

We'll have to see if I was right.

If so, my normal answer would be "Recon Man! Nothing gets by me." But with the QPs on this board, I wouldn't DARE! LOL

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 22:38
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Are you left handed RL?

No.

The Reaper
06-30-2004, 22:40
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
No.

Hahaha!

TR

Roguish Lawyer
06-30-2004, 22:42
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
We'll have to see if I was right.

If so, my normal answer would be "Recon Man! Nothing gets by me." But with the QPs on this board, I wouldn't DARE! LOL

What is the theory, if I may ask?

NousDefionsDoc
06-30-2004, 22:46
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
What is the theory, if I may ask?

No theory. Just based on where the TS was standing. Since you're not wrong handed, it boils down to instructor preference. I won't say anymore - no giving away tips of the trade.:D

Reaper, no making fun. I said "if" i was right.:D

Guy
06-30-2004, 22:52
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Team Sergeant or other QP's-

Why would a civilian not be a suitable subject for the exercises that mffjm has suggested? Please give lil' saca more info on what was meant by this.
There is a distinct difference between combat -vs- target shooting.


On another note- brief back forum has been lonely lately... why not a TS shooting competition story for the episode you described in your prior post. :munchin

Notice when he said "broken thumb"...the thumbs play a major role when it comes to combat shooting!

Solid
07-01-2004, 04:11
This thread makes me wish I'd grown up in America... I think I've seen a gun maybe three times over here!
:(

Damn gun laws...

Solid

Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-01-2004, 06:17
Originally posted by Solid
This thread makes me wish I'd grown up in America... I think I've seen a gun maybe three times over here!


Solid

Ahhhh, it is not the gun you see, it is the gun you don't see. In the words of another of my favorite Team Sergeant's, "Check the hands!!!"

Maybe it is just not being able to teach FOGs new tricks but I also prefer the isosceles technique. For me it was a lot easier to address the threat quicker and allowed my limited flexibility not to enhance the challenge of taking out the target. Also, position of the TS looks good to me, never was into eating ejected cartridge cases.

:)

Jack Moroney

Solid
07-01-2004, 06:42
To clarify what google is telling me-
Isoceles is feet shoulder-space apart, chest square to target
and Weaver is side-on like a boxer's stance?

Thank you,

Solid

Razor
07-01-2004, 09:36
Solid, what boxing stance has you side-on to a target? Kinda hard to throw a good cross, or any right hand punch, with your upper body twisted to the left.

Solid
07-01-2004, 09:54
Sorry, poor explanation. One foot slightly forward of the other (in my case left) was what I meant.

Whoops..

Solid

VMI_Marine
07-02-2004, 07:05
Solid,
Weaver is weak-side shoulder pointing toward the target. I wish I could remember where I saw the stat, but I think the FBI did a study and found that no matter what stance they trained on, when agents reacted to a shooting situation under stress, they automatically adopted an isosceles stance. I'll do some googling later to try and corroborate that.

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 16:11
I wish I could remember where I saw the stat, but I think the FBI did a study and found that no matter what stance they trained on, when agents reacted to a shooting situation under stress, they automatically adopted an isosceles stance. I'll do some googling later to try and corroborate that.

Several have stated this, including Col. Applegate. From what I have seen, they go into an isosceles and kind of dance with their feet. Unless they've been trained.

Smokin Joe
07-02-2004, 18:49
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Several have stated this, including Col. Applegate. From what I have seen, they go into an isosceles and kind of dance with their feet. Unless they've been trained.

There is some good info on this here (http://www.gutterfighting.org/gun.html)

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 19:00
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
There is some good info on this here (http://www.gutterfighting.org/gun.html)

LOL - DAMN! REVERSAL - TWO POINTS!

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 19:21
I don't teach point shooting.

The day USSF uses/teaches point shooting is the day professional wrestling becomes an Olympic sport.

Col Applegate's idea was great and ahead of its time. That was then. It's 2004, time for double actions, double stack mag's and using sights instead of pointing and praying.

TS

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 19:25
LOL - Ok, ok. No point shooting. I tried it and didn't like it either.

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 19:40
One cannot shoot the groups in the above pictured targets via point shooting.

I do believe I could teach a person that has never held a pistol to shoot bullet holes through bullet holes in one day. Provided they are in good health, and possess a better than adverage grip.

I actually enjoy teaching the type of people that could not hit the water if they fell off the boat.

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 19:42
I actually enjoy teaching the type of people that could not hit the water if they fell off the boat.

Reference to a recent experience?:munchin

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 19:49
LOL, no.

Most people I teach do very well. I like to think I teach as well as I shoot.
I've actually had quite a few shoot bullet holes through bullet holes after just one lesson. Most had some weapons experience, a few had no experience what so ever.

Almost forgot, RL had a run of about 4 rounds through the same hole and kept shooting and made that big shot group. I had to point out to him how I knew he was going through the same hole....

Sacamuelas
07-02-2004, 20:03
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I had to point out to him how I knew he was going through the same hole....

Would you quit teasing us along and quit making me chime in to ask for more? :p I just want to learn and EVERTIME I have to post someone gets to take a potshot at me. LOL

I can't believe noone has brought up my yard stick "groups" yet. HAHA

ALright... How did you know they all went in the same hole when the shooter did not Team Sergeant? I know from standing in the front at his 10 o'clock and watching him, you could not have seen the target.

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 20:08
I showed him what a regular .40 hole looks like, and trust me they all looked the same. Then I showed him what a .40 hole looked like with a second shot going through the same hole. It was easy to see a difference, once it was pointed out.

Sacamuelas
07-02-2004, 20:09
Damn.. I figured you were using the "force"! LOL I figured it was something simple.
Thanks.

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 20:12
Quit whining Saca. This is a shooting thread and there's no whining on the range.

lrd
07-02-2004, 20:15
If I wanted to learn to shoot a handgun, what qualities would you all recommend looking for in a teacher?

I've knocked off a few OJ cans with a .22, but that was a long time ago...

Smokin Joe
07-02-2004, 20:16
I think I need to clairfy my prior post.

I don't condone point shooting. I was merely referencing the stance and how Col. Applegate worked off of the bodies natural reaction to "being underfire" in the stance.


No disrespect was intended or implied NDD.

Sacamuelas
07-02-2004, 20:21
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Quit whining Saca. This is a shooting thread and there's no whining on the range.
Just makin' conversation while I reload there ND Doc. HaHA

At what point should one start trying to fire more than one shot in succession ( during training)?

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 20:24
No disrespect was intended or implied NDD.

Huh? Why would you say that?

lrd - I would recommend a former Team Sergeant in a desert area in CONUS or a former Medick if you really want a scenary change. If you're on the Right Coast, I know another guy I would recommend in the Ft. Bragg area. Identity close hold.

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 20:25
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Just makin' conversation while I reload there ND Doc. HaHA

At what point should one start trying to fire more than one shot in succession ( during training)?

Ask your Instructor - you can only have one at a time.:munchin

Smokin Joe
07-02-2004, 20:36
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Huh? Why would you say that?


I must have mis-interperted this post.

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
LOL - DAMN! REVERSAL - TWO POINTS!

My mistake. :D

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 20:38
Originally posted by lrd
If I wanted to learn to shoot a handgun, what qualities would you all recommend looking for in a teacher?

I've knocked off a few OJ cans with a .22, but that was a long time ago...

One I would recommend is an NRA instructor and some basic NRA pistol courses. Theres an NRA website and they usually have a current list of instructors in the USA.

Another would be word of mouth. Ask around a range or gunstore. Join a shooting club. A few ideas.

Anyone else?

Smokin Joe
07-02-2004, 20:41
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
One I would recommend is an NRA instructor and some basic NRA pistol courses. Theres an NRA website and they usually have a current list of instructors in the USA.

Another would be word of mouth. Ask around a range or gunstore. Join a shooting club. A few ideas.

Anyone else?

Good advice.

Additionally be leary of the CCW or self defense insturctors some are good and some are full of crap. Just check everybody throughly before you give them any money.

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 20:44
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Good advice.

Additionally be leary of the CCW or self defense insturctors some are good and some are full of crap. Just check everybody throughly before you give them any money.

Absolutely!

Most self proclaimed pistol instructors are full of themselves.

Another good idea is a former military person with the proper background in weapons/pistols.

Former LEO with instructor experience.

Huey14
07-02-2004, 20:53
Solid, IIRC, the NRA just opened a London office too. Maybe you could contact them.

Cool thread gents. Pistol shooting is one of my great interests.

lrd
07-02-2004, 20:54
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
One I would recommend is an NRA instructor and some basic NRA pistol courses. Theres an NRA website and they usually have a current list of instructors in the USA.

Another would be word of mouth. Ask around a range or gunstore. Join a shooting club. A few ideas.

Anyone else? I checked out the NRA website awhile back, and if I remember correctly, the only NRA instructors listed were at a private club. That club has the only public range in my area. I don't mind driving, but don't want to do it if I'm not sure about the quality of the instructor.

There are guys at work that shoot, but I don't know them well enough to judge their recommendations...I'll keep asking.

Great suggestions, guys. Thanks.

lrd
07-02-2004, 20:56
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

lrd - I would recommend a former Team Sergeant in a desert area in CONUS or a former Medick if you really want a scenary change. If you're on the Right Coast, I know another guy I would recommend in the Ft. Bragg area. Identity close hold.
NDD -- I wish I could take advantage of your recommendations. :D

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 20:58
Originally posted by lrd
I checked out the NRA website awhile back, and if I remember correctly, the only NRA instructors listed were at a private club. That club has the only public range in my area. I don't mind driving, but don't want to do it if I'm not sure about the quality of the instructor.

There are guys at work that shoot, but I don't know them well enough to judge their recommendations...I'll keep asking.

Great suggestions, guys. Thanks.

lrd,

You find an instructor and tell them (he/she) that before you spend time and money your Special Forces cousin wishes to have a phone chat with him/her concerning his/her instructor creds.

Your Special Forces cousin,

TS

Sacamuelas
07-02-2004, 21:01
NOt sure who is considered "my" instructor, but noone answered my question NDD. I will take the answer from you to, Doc. :cool:

Another question...
What do you find are the best drills that can be performed at home to improve pistol shooting skills?

I currently do three different ones.
I currently do a LOT of dry firing while keeping sites perfectly aligned during trigger pull
I also draw from CCW holster and align sites on target/dry fire.
I practice dropping mag and reloading from my mag carrier without looking away from target

Any recommendations? (From anyone, not just "my" instructor;) )

Roguish Lawyer
07-02-2004, 21:02
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I do believe I could teach a person that has never held a pistol to shoot bullet holes through bullet holes in one day. Provided they are in good health, and possess a better than adverage grip.

I do too.


Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I actually enjoy teaching the type of people that could not hit the water if they fell off the boat.

I hope that wasn't a reference to me! LMAO

lrd
07-02-2004, 21:03
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
lrd,

You find an instructor and tell them (he/she) that before you spend time and money your Special Forces cousin wishes to have a phone chat with him/her concerning his/her instructor creds.

Your Special Forces cousin,

TS Thank you, cousin. That I will do.

Roguish Lawyer
07-02-2004, 21:06
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I hope that wasn't a reference to me! LMAO

I see that I just had an ND. Better here than on the range! LMAO!

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 21:07
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
NOt sure who is considered "my" instructor, but noone answered my question NDD. I will take the answer from you to, Doc. :cool:

Another question...
What do you find are the best drills that can be performed at home to improve pistol shooting skills?

I currently do three different ones.
I currently do a LOT of dry firing while keeping sites perfectly aligned during trigger pull
I also draw from CCW holster and align sites on target/dry fire.
I practice dropping mag and reloading from my mag carrier without looking away from target

Any recommendations? (From anyone, not just "my" instructor;) )

Vivo y Pendejo on the range in addition to what you are already doing. If I was your Instructor, I would tell you to continue your dry fire verrrry slowly, like Tai Chi speed. Watch for glitches that can become bad habits. Extraneous movements, etc.

What was the other question?

Roguish Lawyer
07-02-2004, 21:10
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Vivo y Pendejo

I could not connect "V&P" to ball and dummy until now.

See, keep your mouth shut, keep reading, and you'll eventually find the answers to your stupid questions! LOL

NousDefionsDoc
07-02-2004, 21:13
I saw your other question - If I was your Instructor, I would tell you to start on controlled pairs after you are consistently shooting group like RL's target, By consistently I mean cold, hot, morning, evening, day after day. If I was your Instructor.:D

Sacamuelas
07-02-2004, 21:25
If I was your Instructor
YOu get in my AO... your hired.

mucho gracias

I can shoot groups like those displayed. Probably can't quite consistently do it weak handed though.

That reminds me of another drill/exercise that I don''t currently do, but probably should. Of course, my occupation tends to develop it as a byproduct.

GRIP strengthing exercises

any others?

Smokin Joe
07-02-2004, 23:05
Originally posted by Sacamuelas

any others?

Dry fire:

With an unloaded weapon

1. Pratice your draw stroke for your concealed holster coming up on target and depressing the trigger as soon as you get a front site flash.

i.e. As soon as your front site covers the target you should be firing....no hesitation. Front site, Bang.

The goal is development of speed from the leather. Remember all of your fundementals and don't let them slack, but concentrate on your SPEED. It works best if you have a 3rd party or device to say "Go"

2. With an unloaded weapon, an unloaded magazine inserted into the weapon, and a magazine with dummy rounds in your CC extra mag pouch.

From your CC holster come up on target just like the above dry fire drill, depress the trigger, when you hear a "click" tap, rack. Your slide will lock (or should lock) to the rear. Speed reload a fresh mag with dummy rounds, rack the slide again and fire one more round.

The goal is to be quick and smooth from "Go" until your second round is fired. If you start fumbling or your fundmentals start slacking SLOW down.

SLOW is SMOOTH and SMOOTH is FAST!

Guy
07-02-2004, 23:20
I carry one of these where ever I travel...

Team Sergeant
07-02-2004, 23:40
Originally posted by Guy
I carry one of these where ever I travel...

And I carry one of these....

Smokin Joe
07-03-2004, 03:14
Guy,

Please forgive my ignorance but what is it?

I use an oven timer.
Its cheap but it does the job until I can afford an IPSC timer.

The Reaper
07-03-2004, 08:25
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Guy,

Please forgive my ignorance but what is it?

I use an oven timer.
Its cheap but it does the job until I can afford an IPSC timer.

A PACT Club Timer II. $130.

Some of us (like Guy) are actually fast enough to need one.

TR

Guy
07-03-2004, 10:17
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
And I carry one of these....

See TS...Why did you have to rub my nose in it? You know where I live at. :o

RL needs to get into political office and amend some of these CCW laws.:munchin

Team Sergeant
07-03-2004, 10:47
Originally posted by Guy
See TS...Why did you have to rub my nose in it? You know where I live at. :o

RL needs to get into political office and amend some of these CCW laws.:munchin

Highest murder rate in the country.

Police response time of 45 minutes to an hour. (They say 10 minutes for a "verified" crime.)

Serious crime rates continue to climb each year and every year.

It takes an entire police force 45 minutes to take down 2 armed bank robbers.

What a wonderful place to live.

You can keep kalif.:D

TS

Guy
07-03-2004, 10:58
TS,

All the reasons resposible trained citizens should be allowed to carry. I had to resort to training with this....

Guy
07-03-2004, 11:01
and this...

Used in movies and television shows worldwide, this is the most realistic, accurate shooting, simulated handgun I have ever seen!

It shoots a .25 caliber steel, plastic or rubber projectile up to 400 feet per second! The gun is accurate in size and weight of the real Glock…. fits perfectly in your holster. Use it for training, use it for self-defense, it shoots accurately out to 50 feet and delivers a sting that will stop aggressors in their tracks.

I have personally shot these guns and I will testify they are extremely realistic, very accurate and a lot of fun! It does everything the regular gun will do without the lethal liability and without having to go to the range. You can shoot this in your back yard, even in your basement.

Just like a real gun! These are not toys! You must be 18 to purchase!

The Reaper
07-03-2004, 11:47
Originally posted by Guy
See TS...Why did you have to rub my nose in it? You know where I live at. :o

RL needs to get into political office and amend some of these CCW laws.:munchin

Improvise.

Adapt.

Overcome.

TR

pulque
07-06-2004, 14:37
what is a "double tap"?

Sacamuelas
07-06-2004, 14:38
Originally posted by pulque
what is a "double tap"?
It is when you fire two shots into the target in very quick succession...or :p LOL

pulque
07-06-2004, 14:40
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
It is when you fire two shots into the target in quick succession...or :p LOL

or?

Sacamuelas
07-06-2004, 14:40
Originally posted by pulque
what is a "double tap"?
It is when you fire two shots into the target in very quick succession...or :p LOL

Team Sergeant
07-06-2004, 14:42
Originally posted by pulque
what is a "double tap"?

Double tap,

A series of two, rapid, well aimed shots usually ending up about three to four inches from each other.

A double tap is usually fired from a pistol, assault rifle or a submachine gun.

pulque
07-06-2004, 14:46
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Double tap,

A series of two, rapid, well aimed shots usually ending up about three to four inches from each other.

A double tap is usually fired from a pistol, assault rifle or a submachine gun.

Thank you TS. Is it possible to get only one target hole from a double-tap, or is the firing too rapid?

Team Sergeant
07-06-2004, 14:52
Originally posted by pulque
Thank you TS. Is it possible to get only one target hole from a double-tap, or is the firing too rapid?

Not only is it possible it's very good gun handling.

If and when that occurs one should speed up their movements. It is actually better to place the shots 3-4 inches apart. This results in more damage.

Now when the double taps become bigger than 3-4 inches apart than one should slow back down. A 3 inch minimum and a 4 inch maximum is what one desires to achieve each time one double taps.

Air.177
07-06-2004, 15:03
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Double tap,

A series of two, rapid, well aimed shots usually ending up about three to four inches from each other.

A double tap is usually fired from a pistol, assault rifle or a submachine gun.

Looks like another definition for NDD's Bear Pit Glossary

Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-06-2004, 15:19
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Not only is it possible it's very good gun handling.



And that's a fact. Every gun is different so it would be unusual for someone to pick up any weapon with which he was not familiar and be able to "double tap" with the accuracy that TS describes. In order to get the results of two aimed shots in rapid succession I have found that I have to be able to find the reset point on my trigger which allows me to get another round off with limit loss of time. But then, that is me. The primary reason for the double tap is to make sure we don't have to allow this clown to walk around another day on the earth. It is primarily used to compensate for the lower ballistic characteristics of pistol ammunition, especially lower caliber stuff.

Jack Moroney

Sacamuelas
07-06-2004, 15:24
So noone picked up on my internet humor about a "double tap" internet forum style, huh? LOL Damn serious professionals... ;)

Smokin Joe
07-06-2004, 17:04
TS,

Do you practice or teach to get a second sight picture in between your 1st and 2nd shot?


*For clarification I usually shoot this at 10 yards and in*

Here is what I do....I get the 1st sight picture which is a front sight flash; double tap; then my 2nd sight picture is after my second shot....for follow through.

Should I try and get a 2nd sight picture i.e. another flash front sight picture in-between shots 1 and 2? Then obtain a 3rd sight picture for follow through?

If you think this violates OPSEC please delete posthast.

Team Sergeant
07-06-2004, 18:59
1. Teaching someone to shoot is never a security issue. Tactics, techniques and procedures employed by the Quiet Professionals (Special Forces or SOF in general) are an issue. Those I will not teach to anyone.

2. You should always have at least a flash front sight when shooting.

3. Yes, I always have an eye on the front sight each and every time I pull the trigger. Trying to obtain a proper sight picture each time the trigger is pulled is not always achieved during rapid fire exercises.

HTH

TS

Smokin Joe
07-06-2004, 19:58
Gotcha!