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Retired W4
04-26-2009, 00:40
I feel like I'm going way out on a limb on this, but I will take my shot. While prowling a gun show recently I happened to see a guy with a hat with Soc Trang Tigers on it. Now I can spot a fake Vietnam helicopter guy in two minutes or less, but this fellow was a Crew Chief with the 121st AHC in 1970, and also flew with some other shady characters out of Vung Tau (my description, not his). Crew Chiefs hold a very special place in my heart. When you fire that Lycoming up and pull pitch they are back there behind the M-60 and are now a...door gunner, with a vested interest in the performance of their previous duties. After a while he started talking about some missions he flew in the scenic terrain of what was commonly referred to as the Parrot's Beak (exact location unknown). I am familiar with the exploits of the Tigers, being a former Crusader and Spartan myself, and having flown the AO, but I am not familiar with the particular mission of which he spoke. He seemed somewhat haunted about the whole thing, like waking up from a deep sleep.

Maybe I missed this one on this guy, but I had to check with the Professionals to see if any one around that area had heard of Sand Man. If you know, you know. If it's a figment of somebody's imagination I'll stick a sock in it. It only seems reasonable that agent orange wasn't the only thing dispensed from an agricultural type rig.

Pete
04-26-2009, 06:15
Did a quick goggle (not deep) search and didn't see anything on it.

Marines had a Sand Man in 67/68 that was changed to YUMA.

I'm just sitting here thinking logistics, dose, time, area, vegitation, reliability and why?

Never say Never - it might have been tried once with mixed results but the story should have come out by now.

Retired W4
04-26-2009, 09:38
He said pretty much everybody on the ground got some. With close quarter fighting it is hard to discriminate with that kind of equipment. Good guys were extracted quietly, and some bad guys never woke up. I guess it was better than 500 pounders for everybody. I am going to meet with my new buddy in a more conducive environment this week to learn more. I'd like to know if the helicopter crew had any protection.

Richard
04-26-2009, 09:57
Does this make any sense to you? :confused:

There was a 'Sandman' around a decade ago - but it was to stay awake.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Blitzzz (RIP)
04-30-2009, 21:20
Parrot's beat was a region of shared borders of South Vietman, Laos, and Cambodia about 33miles west of Siagon. Agents used in that area were Orange, Pink, Blue Purple and white all containing different amouts of Dioxin, Cacodylic Aid, amd Picloram. And some other stuff. Blitzzz

f50lrrp
05-01-2009, 11:57
I operated in the Parrot's Beak area between 1967 and 1969. I was exposed to Agent Orange but not , as far as I know, to any other agents.

greenberetTFS
05-01-2009, 12:34
SF Firebase was located 20 miles above Moc Hoa and less than a mile from the Cambodian border. Capt. John P. Mcafee was the Team Leader. Some names in the team are Sgt. Randolph Subervich, Spc. Thompson, 2nd. Lt. Jonathan Powell, and a Sgt. nicknamed "Shotgun"............I think, but am not sure the ODA was 134.......Anybody remember these guys?

GB TFS :munchin

f50lrrp
05-01-2009, 15:22
What year are you talking about? In 1967-1969 the ODA # should have been a 3 (third corps) or a 4 (iv corps). Could this have been a 1st SFGA Group team?

Retired W4
05-01-2009, 21:11
... Agents used in that area were Orange, Pink, Blue Purple and white all containing different amouts of Dioxin, Cacodylic Aid, amd Picloram. And some other stuff. Blitzzz

This would not have been a defoliant. It was used to induce a deep, temporary sleep. I guess the theory was if everybody is asleep the battle is over, and the good guys can be extracted. If no one has ever heard of it then, please just forget I even brought it up. I was intentionally being vague in my description in case it might still be classified, but what the hell, no one would discuss in off line either if it were.

alright4u
05-02-2009, 01:49
Sorry. This sounds like Tailwind BS.

VVVV
05-02-2009, 08:01
SF Firebase was located 20 miles above Moc Hoa and less than a mile from the Cambodian border. Capt. John P. Mcafee was the Team Leader. Some names in the team are Sgt. Randolph Subervich, Spc. Thompson, 2nd. Lt. Jonathan Powell, and a Sgt. nicknamed "Shotgun"............I think, but am not sure the ODA was 134.......Anybody remember these guys?

GB TFS :munchin

According to Steve Sherman, McAfee was Det Co of A-414 from 1 Jun 70 to 15 Dec 70. As a 1LT, he was the CAPO there from 18 Apr 69 to 1 Jun 70. None of the others you named are listed on A-414.

http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/C4.htm

Richard
05-02-2009, 08:08
Sorry. This sounds like Tailwind BS.

Concur.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

greenberetTFS
05-02-2009, 12:24
According to Steve Sherman, McAfee was Det Co of A-414 from 1 Jun 70 to 15 Dec 70. As a 1LT, he was the CAPO there from 18 Apr 69 to 1 Jun 70. None of the others you named are listed on A-414.

http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/C4.htm

I tried to PM you but I couldn't do it so I'll post my source. It's "Slow walk in a sad rain". It's author is Capt. John P. Mcafree. He claims it's a "true story" about his service time at the firebase he commanded........I don't remember him saying that the names of his team in the book were fictitious..........:confused: I no longer have the book, but requested the guy that has it check that out.

GB TFS :munchin

Mike
05-03-2009, 01:54
WTF is "SF Firebase?"

I was in an "A Camp" in that AO from Aug 68-March 70.

They dropped everything but snowballs all over the place.
Thet even dropped big drums of CS crystals along the border that came to life when you walked thru the area. It affected the little guys a lot more than us, but it definately kept people out of the area.

"ODA" is a term not used in those days. We were "A Detachments," or "A Teams."

Never heard of sleeping gas-think that was in "The Wizard of OZ"

The Reaper
05-03-2009, 07:43
Sleeping agents are very hard to dose properly, as any anesthesiologist will tell you.

At a certain point, some people will still be awake while others are nearing death.

Trying to do this outside would be even more difficult, as some areas would have concentrated gas and others, barely any.

The Russians found this out at ther Moscow Theater when they tried to knock out the terrorists.

IIRC, some terrorists were still awake and some hostages had been killed.

Sounds like BS to me. I would think it would be just as easy to kill the enemy, as they will surely know that something went down, either way.

TR

BMT (RIP)
05-03-2009, 11:56
They even dropped big drums of CS crystals along the border that came to life when you walked thru the area.

This was called "TRAIL DUST". I remember seeing area's in III Corp that were 3 Klick's wide and 6 Klick's long.


BMT

Richard
05-03-2009, 13:48
A number of TDY teams in that AO from 1st, 5th, and 7th SFGs with team designations in single, double, and triple digits and beginning with 1, 3, 4, 5, and 7. Some of the sites were also temp and turned over to the Tony the Tiger guys (LLDB) in a very short period of time. It all depends on when you were in there. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Blitzzz (RIP)
05-03-2009, 17:57
was the Lt. Powell the one that wounded himself with a "mini" grenade demonstratint the safety to some 'Folks"?

greenberetTFS
05-04-2009, 00:50
WTF is "SF Firebase?"

I was in an "A Camp" in that AO from Aug 68-March 70.

They dropped everything but snowballs all over the place.
Thet even dropped big drums of CS crystals along the border that came to life when you walked thru the area. It affected the little guys a lot more than us, but it definately kept people out of the area.

"ODA" is a term not used in those days. We were "A Detachments," or "A Teams."

Never heard of sleeping gas-think that was in "The Wizard of OZ"

Mike,

Your absolutely right..... :D I was thinking of todays terminology......:rolleyes: Thanks for the correction...............;)

GB TFS :munchin

alright4u
05-04-2009, 01:46
We had A Teams, B Detachments, SF Companies in each Corp. Then we had Delta, Omega, Sigma, Gamma ( all were B Det's), add C5 and C&C with their FOB's. We called the Mike Forces by Corp, like I-IV and the Nha Trang MF.

We, in Omega and later CCS, were damn lucky to use SF A camps for launch sites. We never forgot whose damn camp it really was. Not too damn bright to piss off the team daddy or CO. That was a sure bet to get your ass kicked out of the camp to fend for yourself on the airstrip. My replacement at Duc Co pulled rank on the Team Co. He lost our underground TOC. Real frigging genious he was. How damn hard is to take care of the team that lets you use their camp?

BMT (RIP)
05-04-2009, 06:58
The 8 month's I worked on CCS Launch site's we never had any trouble with any camp.

The Team at Ban Don loved to see us use their camp. Every morning we would carry a sack of fresh baked pastry and bread to them. :D


They used our O-1E's for local AO VR's, if we were not in a push toget RT's on the ground. Plus we told them everything we saw along or accross the border in their AO.

BMT

alright4u
05-04-2009, 23:32
You came after me.

greenberetTFS
05-07-2009, 17:24
was the Lt. Powell the one that wounded himself with a "mini" grenade demonstratint the safety to some 'Folks"?

Blitzzz, Sorry for this late reply........Answer is I really don't know...........;)

GB TFS :munchin

griper23
07-24-2009, 21:11
I know Pat Mcafee if anyone wants the story. -GR23

Mike
08-03-2009, 22:04
Sigma spent a bit of time launching out of our camp a few times.
They stashed their stuff at the end of the strip and got us a lot of incoming.

Their chopper fuel and ammo got hit one day and made a huge mess.

I remember one pilot coming into the commo bunker and declared the fan "needed more pitch."
Fixed it right up.

20 minutes later he and everybody on his ship were burnt to cinders.
They were way overloaded on a sightseeing tour of a new AO. They put about 9 people into 6 bags.

Utah Bob
08-15-2009, 13:05
WTF is "SF Firebase?"

I was in an "A Camp" in that AO from Aug 68-March 70.

They dropped everything but snowballs all over the place.
Thet even dropped big drums of CS crystals along the border that came to life when you walked thru the area. It affected the little guys a lot more than us, but it definately kept people out of the area.

"ODA" is a term not used in those days. We were "A Detachments," or "A Teams."

Never heard of sleeping gas-think that was in "The Wizard of OZ"

When I was with the Cav at the 2/7 rear hq in Phouc Vinh the MPs dusted a bunch of old ARVN bunkers across the street to keep the hookers from utilizing them for illicit rendezvous. We got some harassment rockets one night for about 10 minutes. Most of them landed near the airstrip the 227th AHB area.

After the fireworks let up, I had the company xo s in the orderly room checking on any damage and WIAs (there were none).

Suddenly the battalion XO, a true Saigon commando, bursts into the room with tears running down his cheeks screaming "Gas! Gas!. They're firing gas shells! What are you people doing? Man the bunkers! Everybody on the green line! Get ready for a ground assault!!"

Found out that he had been taking his evening stroll when the hardware came in. He jumped into the nearest bunker he saw. Yup, it was a dusted one.
What a dork that guy was.:D:rolleyes:

We were all over the Parrots Beak in the 70 incursion. Nobody seemed drowsy to me.

Viper19114
08-30-2012, 12:52
There are two items to this story. One is the parrots beak which was an area that jutted out of Cambodia into Vietnam, along with the angles wing. This area was Northwest of Saigon and was considered a very hot area. I believe that this area was the raid on NVA Headquarters where Mad Dog went missing. But that was on the Cambodia side.

The second thing is the 121st AHC. I was a door gunner on their gunships (Vikings) from 1967 to 1969. During this time they never traveled that far north as they were stationed at Soc Trang which is south of Can To.

John (Jack) Smith

bushmaster11
09-06-2012, 17:25
While I was with the 3d MSF (B-36) '69 worked the area and kept being run off. We finally established an AO. Billy Waugh was recon 1SG and one of his RTs found one of the largest armories ever found in country. There were bunker after bunker filled with weapons, ammo, medical, and food. It required CH-47s looking like LAX, a/c after a/c to pull it all out. The downside for me was catching the wrong end of an 81mm at Rang Rang.

J R sends
De Oppresso Liber

OldNCranky
01-24-2013, 00:44
I was surfing the site a bit and came across this thread. It made me think of I guy I can see clear as day (blond hair) but can't remember his name to save my life.. I'm hoping if I tell this story maybe he's on here. Dude was hard as woodpecker lips even in his late 50s (even for his age he ran most of us young pups ragged).

He was one of a very small handful of 19th SFG (A) brothers attached to A/2/5 SFG (A) around '95-96'' that had been MACV-SOG guys that were still running with us youngsters for a couple of CONUS trips and a OCONUS demining mission to Eritrea.

Anyway, I was on 543 at the time and this brother (18B I think) came along for a proof of concept doing Joint Theatre Missile Defense (JTDM) out in New Mexico. One day while were planning in Los Alamos, we were out back behind our team room cleaning.50 cals. An old civilian (GS employee) that had access to our area came limping up and said hey to us. During the conversation he made the comment that those guns would "take a big chunk out you". We agreed. He pulled up his pants leg to show us that he was missing much of one of his thighs. He began to explain that he had been a Loach pilot and had been flying low trying to smoke out ADA guns for the AH1s to kill and got a bit too close with a camouflaged DSHKA before he realized it. This SF brother that was attached to us and this guy start talking about call signs, locations and dates. Parrots Beak came up, and it turns out this Loach pilot is the dude that had pulled this SF brother out the shit one bad day. Things got a bit emotional and us youngsters just listened in silence and awe. So this pilot leaves and goes back and grabs an old photo albulm and comes back to show us that OH6 he was flying the day he pulled this SF brother outa Parrots Beak. I remember it was the OH6 in a museum at Fort Rucker, same tail numbers and everything in the pictures both in Viet Nam and Rucker.

Anyway, the point of all this story is if that brother is on here or someone knows who I might be talking about PM me as I would like to get back in touch with him.

Oh yeah. That reminds me... One last RFI.. Anyone know a SFC Bell (slim bald headed guy) from 20th SFG (A)? He was our student platoon SGT at Fort Benning, GA for the US Army Sniper School in '92. I owe him $50 for bailing me outa jail in time to make formation and PT the night before graduation for a DUI (didn't end your career back then yet or get you kicked outa school... I graduated). No shit.. No joke.. I need to square that old debt up. :munchin

OldNCranky
01-31-2013, 03:14
I was surfing the site a bit and came across this thread. It made me think of I guy I can see clear as day (blond hair) but can't remember his name to save my life.. I'm hoping if I tell this story maybe he's on here. Dude was hard as woodpecker lips even in his late 50s (even for his age he ran most of us young pups ragged).

He was one of a very small handful of 19th SFG (A) brothers attached to A/2/5 SFG (A) around '95-96'' that had been MACV-SOG guys that were still running with us youngsters for a couple of CONUS trips and a OCONUS demining mission to Eritrea.

Anyway, I was on 543 at the time and this brother (18B I think) came along for a proof of concept doing Joint Theatre Missile Defense (JTDM) out in New Mexico. One day while were planning in Los Alamos, we were out back behind our team room cleaning.50 cals. An old civilian (GS employee) that had access to our area came limping up and said hey to us. During the conversation he made the comment that those guns would "take a big chunk out you". We agreed. He pulled up his pants leg to show us that he was missing much of one of his thighs. He began to explain that he had been a Loach pilot and had been flying low trying to smoke out ADA guns for the AH1s to kill and got a bit too close with a camouflaged DSHKA before he realized it. This SF brother that was attached to us and this guy start talking about call signs, locations and dates. Parrots Beak came up, and it turns out this Loach pilot is the dude that had pulled this SF brother out the shit one bad day. Things got a bit emotional and us youngsters just listened in silence and awe. So this pilot leaves and goes back and grabs an old photo albulm and comes back to show us that OH6 he was flying the day he pulled this SF brother outa Parrots Beak. I remember it was the OH6 in a museum at Fort Rucker, same tail numbers and everything in the pictures both in Viet Nam and Rucker.

Anyway, the point of all this story is if that brother is on here or someone knows who I might be talking about PM me as I would like to get back in touch with him.

Oh yeah. That reminds me... One last RFI.. Anyone know a SFC Bell (slim bald headed guy) from 20th SFG (A)? He was our student platoon SGT at Fort Benning, GA for the US Army Sniper School in '92. I owe him $50 for bailing me outa jail in time to make formation and PT the night before graduation for a DUI (didn't end your career back then yet or get you kicked outa school... I graduated). No shit.. No joke.. I need to square that old debt up. :munchin

I owe money :munchin

cooper1340s
06-24-2013, 10:01
I was a platoon leader(SF officer doing infantry duty) with 2/5th Cav in 1970 when we invaded Cambodia from the Parrots Beak. We got a chance to see the largest NVA base camp ever found in Vietnam (by 3rd MSF). Most of it was underground and it was huge. Did not experience any sleeping gas attacks at all.

The Reaper
06-24-2013, 17:30
Hey, cooper.

Please reread the rules and comply with them before posting again.

We like to know who is posting here.

Thanks.

TR

Viper19114
09-05-2014, 16:24
I was with the 121st Assault Helicopter Company as a Door Gunner on a gunship. I was on 5 missions looking for Nick Rowe when we finally scooped him up. The 121st was not at the Parrots beak at any time. There was a spray ship at
Soc Trang for Agent Orange but that did not last long. The was another Tiger company called the Top Tigers but they were not out of Soc Trang or the 121st.

Mike
09-05-2014, 17:10
I was at Budop Aug 68-March 70.

Apparently a lot of the Cambodian incursion was launched from there just after I left.

I recall a chopper outfit with the callsign "Top Tiger" that worked our AO for a long time.

Don't recall just what they did.
We got a "work chopper" once a week and others who would drop ih for whatever reason, but I have forgotten who did what.
There were Caribous with "Tong" names and 130s with "Bookie" designators.
"Blue Max was cobras frrom the 17th ARA. They had a Pour Le Merit painted on their transmission housing.
I got a chunk of rocket in one lung courtesy one of them.
A month later I was back 0n site.