How to Raise Our I.Q. [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

Richard

04-16-2009, 06:24

Some interesting studies - let the debate begin... ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

How to Raise Our I.Q.
Nicholas D. Kristof, NYT, 15 Apr 2009

Poor people have I.Q.’s significantly lower than those of rich people, and the awkward conventional wisdom has been that this is in large part a function of genetics.

After all, a series of studies seemed to indicate that I.Q. is largely inherited. Identical twins raised apart, for example, have I.Q.’s that are remarkably similar. They are even closer on average than those of fraternal twins who grow up together.

If intelligence were deeply encoded in our genes, that would lead to the depressing conclusion that neither schooling nor antipoverty programs can accomplish much. Yet while this view of I.Q. as overwhelmingly inherited has been widely held, the evidence is growing that it is, at a practical level, profoundly wrong. Richard Nisbett, a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan, has just demolished this view in a superb new book, “Intelligence and How to Get It,” which also offers terrific advice for addressing poverty and inequality in America.

Professor Nisbett provides suggestions for transforming your own urchins into geniuses — praise effort more than achievement, teach delayed gratification, limit reprimands and use praise to stimulate curiosity — but focuses on how to raise America’s collective I.Q. That’s important, because while I.Q. doesn’t measure pure intellect — we’re not certain exactly what it does measure — differences do matter, and a higher I.Q. correlates to greater success in life.

Intelligence does seem to be highly inherited in middle-class households, and that’s the reason for the findings of the twins studies: very few impoverished kids were included in those studies. But Eric Turkheimer of the University of Virginia has conducted further research demonstrating that in poor and chaotic households, I.Q. is minimally the result of genetics — because everybody is held back.

“Bad environments suppress children’s I.Q.’s,” Professor Turkheimer said.

One gauge of that is that when poor children are adopted into upper-middle-class households, their I.Q.’s rise by 12 to 18 points, depending on the study. For example, a French study showed that children from poor households adopted into upper-middle-class homes averaged an I.Q. of 107 by one test and 111 by another. Their siblings who were not adopted averaged 95 on both tests.

Another indication of malleability is that I.Q. has risen sharply over time. Indeed, the average I.Q. of a person in 1917 would amount to only 73 on today’s I.Q. test. Half the population of 1917 would be considered mentally retarded by today’s measurements, Professor Nisbett says.

Good schooling correlates particularly closely to higher I.Q.’s. One indication of the importance of school is that children’s I.Q.’s drop or stagnate over the summer months when they are on vacation (particularly for kids whose parents don’t inflict books or summer programs on them).

Professor Nisbett strongly advocates intensive early childhood education because of its proven ability to raise I.Q. and improve long-term outcomes. The Milwaukee Project, for example, took African-American children considered at risk for mental retardation and assigned them randomly either to a control group that received no help or to a group that enjoyed intensive day care and education from 6 months of age until they left to enter first grade.

By age 5, the children in the program averaged an I.Q. of 110, compared with 83 for children in the control group. Even years later in adolescence, those children were still 10 points ahead in I.Q.

Professor Nisbett suggests putting less money into Head Start, which has a mixed record, and more into these intensive childhood programs. He also notes that schools in the Knowledge Is Power Program (better known as KIPP) have tested exceptionally well and favors experiments to see if they can be scaled up.

Another proven intervention is to tell junior-high-school students that I.Q. is expandable, and that their intelligence is something they can help shape. Students exposed to that idea work harder and get better grades. That’s particularly true of girls and math, apparently because some girls assume that they are genetically disadvantaged at numbers; deprived of an excuse for failure, they excel.

“Some of the things that work are very cheap,” Professor Nisbett noted. “Convincing junior-high kids that intelligence is under their control — you could argue that that should be in the junior-high curriculum right now.”

The implication of this new research on intelligence is that the economic-stimulus package should also be an intellectual-stimulus program. By my calculation, if we were to push early childhood education and bolster schools in poor neighborhoods, we just might be able to raise the United States collective I.Q. by as much as one billion points.

That should be a no-brainer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/opinion/16kristof.html?scp=6&sq=education&st=cse

Dozer523

04-16-2009, 06:45

IQ test?:cool:
I took that! :eek:
I got an "A":cool:
92%!:p

SF_BHT

04-16-2009, 07:06

IQ test?:cool:
I took that! :eek:
I got an "A":cool:
92%!:p

Yeah You were looking at that Redheads paper, I saw you.....
Hate to tell you she was really a blond and just had a wig on... Thats why you got a low score......

JJ_BPK

04-16-2009, 07:29

Some interesting studies - let the debate begin... ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

I don't buy the theory, but I agree with the results..

IQ test TRY to be non-bias by mixing a combination of test styles that can measure both the LEARNED skill level and the ability to Surmise or Deduce the truth..

LEARNED - is generally based on topics you can never pre-know, eg: spelling, addition, history

Four of the five words below are similar. Which one does not belong in the group?

badger
pencil
banana
carpet
saddle

SURMISE - is the ability to measure truths via verbal or visual acuity,
EG:
The set Q contains (amongst others) the numbers:

7 23 45 79 92 133 142

Which of the following would NOT belong in Q?

31
63
112
139
204

By using the logic proposed by the article, we are mis-interpreting the measure of intelligences. Intelligence is the ability to deduce, reason, and create new ideas that are not already invented.

Root teaching, in either a passive or pro-active manor, can only help one to develop socially and economically to one potential. Which is good for everyone..

It will not create an Einstein. In fact there has been numerous documented cases of extremely high levels of intelligence in persons with learning disabilities. EG: Einstein

Quote from wikipedia:
In his early teens, Einstein attended the Luitpold Gymnasium. His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Einstein clashed with authorities and resented the school regimen. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.

In 1894, when Einstein was fifteen, his father's business failed, as DC had lost the War of Currents to alternating current (AC). In search of business, the Einstein family moved to Italy, first to Milan and then, after a few months, to Pavia. During this time, Einstein wrote his first scientific work, "The Investigation of the State of Aether in Magnetic Fields".[9]

Einstein had been left behind in Munich to finish high school, but in the spring of 1895, he withdrew to join his family in Pavia, convincing the school to let him go by using a doctor's note.

Rather than completing high school, Einstein decided to apply directly to the Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule (later Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (ETH)) in Zürich, Switzerland. Lacking a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass, although he got exceptional marks in mathematics and physics.[10]

Einstein wrote that it was in that same year, at age 16, that he first performed his famous thought experiment visualizing traveling alongside a beam of light (Einstein 1979).

SO,, Does education help a person achieve their given potential,, and does better education do a better job???

YES..

Does a better education produce a higher intelligence.

No,, unless you measure intelligence by learned responce..

My $00.0002

nmap

04-16-2009, 08:10

From the article: "and a higher I.Q. correlates to greater success in life."

Not necessarily true. One should be very careful about the general statement and how they define success.

For example, one might consider Mensa. By definition, Mensa consists of geniuses - those in the top 2% of intelligence as measured by IQ tests. More formally, those who are two standard deviations above the mean. A cursory examination of the membership shows an abundance of people who do not fit the standard definitions of success.

I do agree with the general idea of the article, which seems to argue that IQ is largely a function of how a child is nurtured; however, I contend there is also an element of inheritance, or "nature". Certainly, it seems worthwhile to maximize those factors that we can control.

The only problem is - how deep can (or should) one go to correct the environmental elements. Homes that have no books, dysfunctional families, and unstable home environments all seem detrimental to the goal of improving intelligence. These are not easily modified.

Now if we consider the point made within the article that children adopted by upper-middle class families show a significant improvement in IQ, then we find ourselves asking how families can be transformed in mass to the behavioral norms and values of the upper-middle class. Can we afford it? Should we urge or compel it? Do we dispose of the cultural values held by other strata of society in pursuit of a presumptive good? Rhetorical questions all; but perhaps worthy of consideration.

In addition, we must ask a pointed (and nasty) question. Who is going to pick up the garbage? Societies have dirty, unpleasant jobs. Someone is going to get stuck with those jobs. If we improve the overall intelligence of the population, who is going to want a job tossing foul-smelling trash cans during a hot summer day? (By the way, the garbage collection job is only an example; any hard unpleasant job will do). So will social engineering produce a better, happier, and more productive society? Or will it increase the frictions as lots of bright people try to make someone else do the dirty work?

GratefulCitizen

04-16-2009, 14:54

Christopher Langan didn't have the best environment in which to grow up.
He's pretty smart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Langan

I think they're trying to reduce a complex issue down to something with which they're comfortable.

echoes

04-16-2009, 15:04

Yeah You were looking at that Redheads paper, I saw you.....
Hate to tell you she was really a blond and just had a wig on... Thats why you got a low score......

LOL! Well, the redheads that I know of are far smarter than me...for sure!:)

And the clandestine one you mention above, that I cheated off of, only gave me an IQ score of 139...those darn blondes!;)

Here is an example of an I.Q. test, and explanation...(for us blondes...hehe.)

http://www.iqtest.com/

What is an IQ?

An Intelligence Quotient indicates a person's mental abilities relative to others of approximately the same age. Everyone has hundreds of specific mental abilities--some can be measured accurately and are reliable predictors of academic and financial success.

http://www.iqtest.com/faq.html#chart

Intelligence Interval Cognitive Designation 40 - 54
Severely challenged (Less than 1% of test takers) 55 - 69
Challenged (2.3% of test takers) 70 - 84
Below average 85 - 114
Average(68% of test takers) 115 - 129
Above average 130 - 144
Gifted (2.3% of test takers)145 - 159
Genius (Less than 1% of test takers) 160 - 175

Dozer523

04-16-2009, 15:28

Here is a fun one that I use an attention getter when I wa a substitute teacher. I give the answer at the end of the day. The younger grades figure it out faster then the older ones.

Below is the alphabet arranged above and below a line. Determine why the letters were placed where they are.

AEFHIKLMNTVWXYZ
BCDGJOPQRSU

Cynic

04-16-2009, 17:52

Below is the alphabet arranged above and below a line. Determine why the letters were placed where they are.

AEFHIKLMNTVWXYZ
BCDGJOPQRSU

Um, no curvy lines on the letters above the line? :munchin

Richard

04-16-2009, 19:03

I think the gist of the study's arguments are that - much like The Little Engine Who Could - the "I think I can" attitude is an important one for any of us.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Dozer523

04-16-2009, 19:23

Um, no curvy lines on the letters above the line? :munchin YUP!
I have never had a first grade class that didin't see that (and it is unlikely they knew the answer from previous exposure). With older kids I begin by practically begging "them that knows the answer" to not reveal it. As kids get older they learn to look for complicated answer. A common answer and one of my favorites is that it is the "tune of the ABC song".

I had a Prof at GU (Tim in the Education Department, Bulldogs) who had lots of IQ tests that he loved to give. One was the Farmer's IQ test. The kids off the Palouse wheat fields laughed as they took it and were all geniuses. Us, more citified kids, were certifiably stoopid. IQ is a function of what you know and what knowledge is valued.

BigJimCalhoun

04-16-2009, 19:43

What are the answers to the two questions in post #4.

For the first one I said that "pencil" did not belong because it did not have the letter "A" for the second letter.

For the math one.., I looked at it for 10 min and have not found an answer, but a guess would be 31 does not belong because if you throw all the numbers into a list, you get 3 prime, one non-prime, 2prime, 2 non-prime, 2 prime, 2 non-prime, so therefore, 31 should be something like 30 or 32, but not 31.

JJ_BPK

04-16-2009, 19:59

What are the answers to the two questions in post #4.

Jim

I grabbed them off a sample test. Didn't bother to get the answers..

Longstreet

04-16-2009, 20:25

I think the gist of the study's arguments are that - much like The Little Engine Who Could - the "I think I can" attitude is an important one for any of us.

Richard's $.02

It is funny that you mentioned the Little Engine because this is what I tell my students. Having the genes for higher intelligence is not enough when determining one's intelligence - it is the attitude one has and the understanding that one must work hard. I was fortunate enough to go to a preppy private school and encountered many students who were extremely intelligent in their academics and totally blew me away with their school achievements. I on the other hand learned that I was not an ‘A’ student and whatever I wanted, I had to work extremely hard for. I'm a teacher now and do my best to provide a learning environment for my students that promotes excellence and nurtures student learning. I tell them on a daily basis that the secret to succeeding in life is hard work.

Over the years I have caught up with many of those students who bested me in high school. While some are successful in their lives, many are now pot heads who live off of mommy and daddy.

Richard

04-17-2009, 06:16

The value of EQ* to its adherants and its doubters...;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

*Emotional Quotient

Slantwire

04-17-2009, 07:08

For the first one I said that "pencil" did not belong because it did not have the letter "A" for the second letter.

See, I said "banana," because it's the only word on the list that's three syllables instead of two.

I hate questions like that. The question is intentionally vague, but if I go in a different direction than the question writer intended, I'm "wrong."

Richard

04-17-2009, 07:59

I hate questions like that. The question is intentionally vague, but if I go in a different direction than the question writer intended, I'm "wrong."

And that is one of the major arguments against such standardized testing. I suggest you read Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences.

Gardner's theory argues that intelligence, particularly as it is traditionally defined, does not sufficiently encompass the wide variety of abilities humans display. In his conception, a child who masters multiplication easily is not necessarily more intelligent overall than a child who struggles to do so. The second child may be stronger in another kind of intelligence, and therefore may best learn the given material through a different approach, may excel in a field outside of mathematics, or may even be looking through the multiplication learning process at a fundamentally deeper level that hides a potentially higher mathematical intelligence than in the one who memorizes the concept easily.

He originally identified seven core intelligences: linguistic, logical-mathematical, spatial, bodily-kinesthetic, musical, interpersonal and intrapersonal. In 1997 he added an eighth, the Naturalist Intelligence. Investigation continues on whether there are Existentialist (existential) and Spiritualist (spiritual) Intelligences.

Gutes lesen! ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Guy

04-17-2009, 09:48

For the first one I said that "pencil" did not belong because it did not have the letter "A" for the second letter.

See, I said "banana," because it's the only word on the list that's three syllables instead of two.I said "badger" for several reasons...mainly because it's an animal/alive/moves on its own.:D

"If everyone was equal, we'd all have the same occupation.";)

Stay safe.

Slantwire

04-17-2009, 10:10

I said "badger" for several reasons...mainly because it's an animal/alive/moves on its own.:D

All five word are nouns, but "banana" is the only one that isn't also a verb.

Answer, and justify - this could turn into a long thread for one silly question! :D

The Reaper

04-17-2009, 10:22

I think that the posters here are smarter than the person who wrote that ambiguous question assuming that there was only one correct rationale.

TR

greenberetTFS

04-17-2009, 10:37

My son Tony was in Mensa when he was getting his BA in English literature at Univ. of Wisconsin. However he didn't inherit it from me. He told me a story about a bus driver in the group whose IQ was pretty high and he was a family man with 7 kids. He said the guy was very satisfied with his life,his kids loved him and so did his wife.He had nothing to prove in his life and he was a rather happy guy. The point that my son was making is that even with his high IQ he was more than satisfied with his life as a bus driver...................;)

GB TFS :munchin

Richard

04-17-2009, 11:06

Hey, we're all a bunch of academic slackers compared to this guy. ;)

Kim Ung-Yong: Attended University at age 4, Ph.D at age 15

This Korean super-genius was born in 1962 and might just be the smartest guy alive today (he’s recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records as having the highest IQ of anyone on the planet). By the age of four he was already able to read in Japanese, Korean, German, and English. At his fifth birthday, he solved complicated differential and integral calculus problems. Later, on Japanese television, he demonstrated his proficiency in Chinese, Spanish, Vietnamese, Tagalog, German, English, Japanese, and Korean. Kim was listed in the Guinness Book of World Records under “Highest IQ”; the book estimated the boy’s score at over 210.

http://www.woosk.com/2009/04/kim-ung-yong-attended-university-at-age-4-phd-at-age-15-worlds-highest-iq.html

Richard's $.02 :munchin

ZonieDiver

04-17-2009, 12:14

I said "badger" for several reasons...mainly because it's an animal/alive/moves on its own.:D

Badgers??? Badgers???? We don't need no stinkin' badgers! :D (From one of the greatest movies ever made... "Weird Al" Yankovic's "UHF"!)

frostfire

04-17-2009, 12:50

I think that the posters here are smarter than the person who wrote that ambiguous question assuming that there was only one correct rationale.TR

IQ is a function of what you know and what knowledge is valued.

Reading thread like this never cease to amaze, as well as to humble me. Just when you thought you had it all figured out...then WHAMO, another perspective came in and undid your prized hypothesis. My way, or the better way...always. I believe that humility is perhaps a necessary ingredient to raise one's IQ.

The thought process displayed by TR, Dozer, Richard et al. Is this really the product of SF schooling? Then for sure I would give my left nad and left kidney just to get a shot at it.

Gutes lesen! ;)
Das stimmt!

Slantwire

04-17-2009, 12:54

And that is one of the major arguments against such standardized testing.

I "get" the idea that a person's ability to detect patterns (and spot the outliers) in an ambiguous problem, can be a measure of intelligence. (It also sounds awfully useful to a certain Quiet Profession.) I'm fine with the general idea of creating a test for the masses to try to identify people who are strong at it.

I just think that questions like this example are painfully half-assed and lazy attempts. A reasonable idea marred by horrible execution.

ZonieDiver

04-17-2009, 13:02

Reading thread like this never cease to amaze, as well as to humble me. Just when you thought you had it all figured out...then WHAMO, another perspective came in and undid your prized hypothesis. My way, or the better way...always. I believe that humility is perhaps a necessary ingredient to raise one's IQ.

The thought process displayed by TR, Dozer, Richard et al. Is this really the product of SF schooling? Then for sure I would give my left nad and left kidney just to get a shot at it.

From my time in SF, I think it is as much a result of the type of person SF recruited, enhanced by the training process, and then sharpened by team time - where those who only look at a problem from one angle are usually doomed to mission failure.

(Speaking of which, do "they" still use the SF Battery Test in recruiting? I have taken a LOT of tests in my day, but that one gave me a severe headache! Hardest test I ever took, by far. There were guys twisting their heads in all kinds of angles on one particular portion of that test. That part, especially, gave new meaning to "viewing the problem from a different perspective"! )

Surf n Turf

04-17-2009, 15:02

frostfire

04-17-2009, 17:03

Richard,
I was preparing a long dissertation with this thread, because you are delving into the “Nature vs Nuture” arguments of the past 100+ years.

Not Richard here , but I'd like to share my 0.00002 as I've been contemplating the same topic for the last 7 years. The conclusion I arrive at is very simple:
Nature, nurture, and choice

IMHO, the answer to your question is yes, if the individual chooses to do so. Regardless of what intellectual level one is measured at or claims to be, one is the sum of the choices made.

In the line of IQ, I always share this lesson with the fresh folks back in engineering school. I told them smart is a function of time. If I gave them a 15 min quick lecture on fluid dynamics (assuming they had never learned it before) then immediately gave a quiz on it, and they scored 90% and above, then they're smart. However, that's not how it works in most school, as well as life. There's a lecture, then there's the schedule that specifies x weeks from now there'll be a quiz on such and such. That means there're x weeks to read the book, ask questions, do practice problem, jump up and down etc. to be prepared for the quiz. IMHOO, students who realized hard work triumphs over pure intelligence made it through, whereas the high school valedictorians who thought they had it all flunked out in 1st and 2nd semesters.

From my time in SF, I think it is as much a result of the type of person SF recruited, enhanced by the training process, and then sharpened by team time - where those who only look at a problem from one angle are usually doomed to mission failure.
Shortly after I typed my post, I thought of how the person must already "got it" and that selection starts even way before the recruiter's office. Much like the job picks the person. Thank you for the affirmation, ZonieDiver.

The Reaper

04-17-2009, 17:55

Richard,
I was preparing a long dissertation with this thread, because you are delving into the “Nature vs Nuture” arguments of the past 100+ years. I have drastically shortened my answer.
I believe the basic questions are:
1. At birth, are we pre-programmed with a level of intelligence that is genetically inherited from our parents, and is unchanging throughout our lives?
2. Does a loving, caring, and literate environment allow a child to expand their level of intelligence regardless of the genetic traits of the parents.

So the question becomes, does a child whose parents have IQ’s in the 70-80 range (100 being average), have a chance of attaining a normalized test score of 100 if they live in the conditions described in #2.

And, what were the IQ’s of the parents of Kim Ung-Yong (referenced above). Does anyone think they were subnormal.

Finally, what do we mean by Intelligence Quotient, and is it a viable measurement of ability.

Anything beyond this gets us into areas of discussion that are very uncomfortable.

SnT

I think that we are born with a "maximum" potential for intelligence. Each of us may have an special talent for some aspect of intelligence. I personally know math geniuses who cannot pass freshman English, or posess the common sense to come in out of the rain.

Most fail to reach that potential due to a variety of factors.

I can't say SF trained me in my thought process. I think we try to select (as at least one factor) for intelligence. I do owe a lot to the SF soldiers I served with. They taught me much that you will not find in books. The old GT requirement for SF was 110, which was the same as required for OCS.

At the same time, education is a seperate issue from intelligence. Some will get more from education than others. You can be intelligent, and uneducated, and to some degree, you can be educated, but not particularly intelligent. You can put a quart of water in a one quart pitcher, but it takes a larger pitcher to hold more water. My grandfather was intelligent, but never went further than 8th grade. He could have gone to college and done well, but he never had the opportunity to complete his education to his full capacity.

Some of the smartest people I know are SF soldiers.

TR

Utah Bob

04-17-2009, 18:27

Some of the smartest people I know are SF soldiers.

Yup. And I think that you can view intelligent and smart as perhaps different leaves on the same stem.

GratefulCitizen

04-17-2009, 19:03

No matter how smart any human is, they can still be limited by their own preconceptions and influenced by peer pressure.
Everyone always starts any line of reasoning with some basic assumptions.

What if those assumptions are wrong?
When evidence tends to refute dearly held assumptions, does an "intelligent" person reconsider what they initially believed, or do they hide in the dark in an attempt to protect their ego?

What if the evidence or our ability to understand evidence is tainted?
Do we stick to what we initially believed, or throw in our lot with the current (changing) understanding?

There are probably many accepted ways to define wisdom.
My own: the ability and willingness to recognize ignorance...in yourself.

Don't know about everyone else;
but the older I get, the more ignorant I become. ;)

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief."
-Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

=====================
=====================
My son Tony was in Mensa when he was getting his BA in English literature at Univ. of Wisconsin. However he didn't inherit it from me. He told me a story about a bus driver in the group whose IQ was pretty high and he was a family man with 7 kids. He said the guy was very satisfied with his life,his kids loved him and so did his wife.He had nothing to prove in his life and he was a rather happy guy. The point that my son was making is that even with his high IQ he was more than satisfied with his life as a bus driver...................;)

GB TFS :munchin

Sounds like he had the right idea. ;)

"I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live.
That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God.
I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him."
Ecclesiastes 3:12-14 (NIV)

burned_pretzel

04-18-2009, 19:29

This is interesting to me because I always thought that those vague questions with imperfect answers were really testing your arguing ability more than IQ.

I also wonder about upbringing. Recently I was helping a friend and a couple guys who he knew build a church in upstate New York. One of the guys was from Japan and apparently extremely smart. He excelled in Japan's schooling system, particularly in math. Anyway, we were installing a circular window and moulding on the face of the church. We had to install the moulding so that there were six strips that went vertically across the entire face of the church. Now that there was a window there, we had to cut them to fit around it. The result was to look like six strips of vertical pieces with a circular window in the center.

Well, this guy could not figure out how to cut the moulding so that the ends would fit around the window and be flush with it. He was trying mathematical formulas and he was making some progress, but having a hell of a time about it. He was trying to figure out angles based on the circumference of the window, etc. It was just painful to watch him do this. The rest of us didn't say anything. We knew how to do it in two seconds, but we wanted to see how long it would take, and then show him how easy it was. Finally he gave up. He just couldn't figure out how to cut the wood to the right shape curve. I went up on a ladder and traced the outline of the window on a piece of paper. I then traced it again onto a piece of scrap drywall. We cut out the circle and layed out the six strips of moulding with the same spacing that they would be on the church. Then, we simply traced the outline of the circle onto the strips and then cut the strips to the right shape.

It was interesting to see how much he struggled to figure it out. I am painfully average when it comes to math, so I try to avoid it when possible. But my dad drilled into me how to figure things out from an early age. In Japan, everything is very strict. They are taught to use mathematics and formulas, instead of thinking out of the box. He thinks in terms of math, whereas I think in terms of getting the job done. Now he can do stuff that I can't dream of and is amazing at things that I can't even spell. He's extremely smart. But classroom smarts doesn't cover everything. I think the test determines the result, at least in some cases. This is simply a case where a different thinking style fit a situation, not a question of IQ. I would have no chance taking the same tests he excels at.

Shar

04-18-2009, 20:02

Gardner's theory argues that intelligence, particularly as it is traditionally defined, does not sufficiently encompass the wide variety of abilities humans display. In his conception, a child who masters multiplication easily is not necessarily more intelligent overall than a child who struggles to do so. The second child may be stronger in another kind of intelligence, and therefore may best learn the given material through a different approach, may excel in a field outside of mathematics, or may even be looking through the multiplication learning process at a fundamentally deeper level that hides a potentially higher mathematical intelligence than in the one who memorizes the concept easily.

I absolutely believe this concept. I have a child who was different almost from birth. He's got a near-photographic memory and can spell any word you throw at him. He's 7. He never "learned" to read, he just read. His IQ was tested on the WISC one year and the Stanford-Binet another year and he's in the 140's as an average but if you break down his scores there is a real interesting pattern with him. He's almost at the ceiling in some of the sections like memory, but in some of the sections he's much closer to average. There is one section in particular where you need to build blocks or something (I can't ever watch him test - it ruins the purity of the test for fear I may coach him) and he biffs it. When I say "biff," I mean - he's average, much closer to 100. His range of scores are between like 110 and 170 on his subtests. When you watch him in school there are clearly subjects he gets and doesn't even have to think about - like spelling and reading, but things like math are a little harder for him. But not all math - illogical (to him) math. He HATED the concept of estimation. He really struggled with it. He has however totally memorized all of his times tables.

With him, there is just something different about the wiring in his brain. He's crazy smart (really, sometimes he's a little crazy). I look at his two siblings and while they are intelligent they are learning-intelligent, they work at getting a concept and so they'll eventually get it. Concepts don't just pre-exist in their brains like my oldest. Obviously there are different "types" of smart. And, to be honest I couldn't tell you which of my kids will be the most successful in life but I'll tell you right now that my genius kid is my least ambitious. He's also sometimes the least rational and "clued-in." Smart money wouldn't be on him.

I guess my point is that IQ is great and all, but motivation and desire coupled with a capacity to learn are probably more important in overall success.

On that Korean kid - while I don't doubt he's a full genius and has an almost immeasurable IQ (all of the new versions of the major IQ tests "ceiling" out at 190), my husband and I are constantly weighing whether we just exploit his intelligence and push him as hard as we can OR whether we expose him to things as often as we can and let him be a kid - making sure that his schooling keeps up with him as best as it can. We've chosen the latter. We'll see whether we're right or not. Right now he's on track to go to college at 16 and I'm wondering how on earth we're going to handle that... I can't imagine 4! Clearly this Korean kid is in a different ballpark than mine, but it does make me wonder what else he's missed out on.

Burger

04-19-2009, 01:06

Good post GratefulCitizen
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.
-Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)Sometimes I wish I were smarter, to be able to figure out the answers. :confused: Sometimes I simply wish I were dumb enough to stop caring. :D

I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live.
That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God.
I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.
Ecclesiastes 3:12-14 (NIV)This leads me to think that Shar has the right idea: it is more important to be balanced than to be driven.

Richard

04-19-2009, 05:37

A brief background on IQ testing/use:

Interest in intelligence dates back thousands of years, but it wasn't until psychologist Alfred Binet was commissioned to identify students who needed educational assistance that the first IQ test was born.

During the early 1900s, the French government asked Binet to help decide which students were mostly likely to experience difficulty in schools. The government had passed laws requiring that all French children attend school, so it needed a way to identify children who would need specialized assistance.

Binet and his colleague, Theodore Simon, (sounds like the Chipmunks, doesn't it) began developing a number of questions that focused on things that had not been taught in school - e.g., attention, memory and problem-solving skills. Using these questions, Binet determined which ones served as the best predictors of school success. He quickly realized that some children were able to answer questions that were more advanced than older children were generally able to answer, while other children of the same age were only able to answer questions that younger children could typically answer. Based on this observation, Binet suggested the concept of a mental age, or a measure of intelligence based on the average abilities of children of a certain age group.

This first intelligence test, referred to today as the Binet-Simon Scale, became the basis for the intelligence tests still in use today. However, Binet himself did not believe that his psychometric instruments could be used to measure a single, permanent and inborn level of intelligence (Kamin, 1995). Binet stressed the limitations of the test, suggesting that intelligence is far too broad a concept to quantify with a single number. Instead, he insisted that intelligence is influenced by a number of factors, changes over time, and can only be compared among children with similar backgrounds (Siegler, 1992).

After the development of the Binet-Simon Scale, the test was soon brought to the United States where it generated considerable interest. Remember, this was a period in which we were tying the concept of 'scientific' study/principles to just about everything - from Home Economics to Political Science.

Stanford University psychologist Lewis Terman took Binet's original test and standardized it using a sample of American participants. This adapted test, first published in 1916, was called the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale and soon became the standard intelligence test used in the U.S.

The Stanford-Binet intelligence test used a single number, known as the intelligence quotient (or IQ), to represent an individual's score on the test. This score was calculated by dividing the test taker's mental age by their chronological age, and then multiplying this number by 100. For example, a child with a mental age of 12 and a chronological age of 10 would have an IQ of 120 (12 /10 x 100).

The Stanford-Binet remains a popular assessment tool today, despite going through a number of revisions over the years since its inception.

At the outset of World War I, U.S. Army officials were faced with the monumental task of screening an enormous number of army recruits. In 1917, as president of the APA and chair of the Committee on the Psychological Examination of Recruits, psychologist Robert Yerkes developed two tests known as the Army Alpha and Beta tests. The Army Alpha was designed as a written test, while the Army Beta was administered orally in cases where recruits were unable to read. The tests were administered to over two million soldiers in an effort to help the army determine which men were well suited to specific positions and leadership roles (McGuire, 1994).

At the end of WWI, the tests remained in use in a wide variety of situations outside of the military with individuals of all ages, backgrounds and nationalities. For example, IQ tests were used to screen new immigrants as they entered the United States at Ellis Island. The results of these mental tests were inappropriately used to make sweeping and inaccurate generalizations about entire populations, which led some intelligence "experts" to exhort Congress to enact immigration restrictions (Kamin, 1995).

The next development in the history of intelligence testing was by American psychologist David Wechsler. Much like Binet, Wechsler believed that intelligence involved a number of different mental abilities, describing intelligence as, "the global capacity of a person to act purposefully, to think rationally, and to deal effectively with his environment" (1939). Dissatisfied with the limitations of the Stanford-Binet, he published his new intelligence test known as the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS) in 1955.

Wechsler also developed two different tests specifically for use with children: the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) and the Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scale of Intelligence (WPPSI). The adult version of the test has been revised since its original publication and is now known as the WAIS-III.

The WAIS-III contains 14 subtests on two scales and provides three scores: a composite IQ score, a verbal IQ score and a performance IQ score. Subtest scores on the WAIS-III can be useful in identifying learning disabilities, such as cases where a low score on some areas combined with a high score in other areas may indicate that the individual has a specific learning difficulty (Kaufman, 1990).

NOTE: A specific norm-referenced test often given to those with a standard score deviation of > 15 points on a WAIS is the TONI (Test Of Nonverbal Intelligence).

Rather than score the test based on chronological age and mental age, as was the case with the original Stanford-Binet, the WAIS is scored by comparing the test taker's score to the scores of others in the same age group. The average score is fixed at 100, with two-thirds of scores lying in the normal range between 85 and 115. This scoring method has become the standard technique in intelligence testing and is also used in the modern revision of the Stanford-Binet test.

Every student at the school where I was the high school principal for 13 years undergoes such testing with annual updates (1-8) and bi-annual updates (9-10) to track their development, and full battery retesting (11) for their personal educational portfolio and college application processes. The WAIS-III is first given to those transitioning from the 8th to 9th grades. These tests are useful as a 'guide' to tracking development - but not nearly as conclusive in their results or predictability of success/failure as many would like or seek...all of which is why I, too, am a believer in Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences.

Shar - good luck with your son. We had one (youngest of three) of those, too, and used our intuitive feelings as often as those of medical professionals to raise him in the way we thought was best. He is now a college senior majoring in Biology (pre-med) and Fine Arts (with a desire to become a medical illustrator), has illustrated two published books, and is now doing his student teaching at a high school near his college to obtain his teaching certificate in Art and Science upon graduation at the end of this summer. The other two - oldest is an environmental chemical engineer in CA and middle is a long haul truck driver currently on the snow-clogged roads between Utah and Wisconsin.

FWIW, the only parameters I ever put on my sons regarding their career choices were:

Is it something you enjoy doing?
Is it something you are/can be good at doing?
Is it something you can make a living doing?
Is it legal?

Richard's $.02 :munchin

nmap

04-19-2009, 06:01

Is it something you enjoy doing?
Is it something you are/can be good at doing?
Can you make a living doing it?
Is it legal?

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Sir, is it really fair to exclude the hedge fund industry? :D

Seriously, thank you for the background on IQ tests. I had no idea.

Shar

04-19-2009, 09:11

Every student at the school where I was the high school principal for 13 years undergoes such testing with annual updates (1-8) and bi-annual updates (9-10) to track their development, and full battery retesting (11) for their personal educational portfolio and college application processes. The WAIS-III is first given to those transitioning from the 8th to 9th grades. These tests are useful as a 'guide' to tracking development - but not nearly as conclusive in their results or predictability of success/failure as many would like or seek...all of which is why I, too, am a believer in Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences.

Was this a private school? I'm impressed at the funding for that kind of testing. My son was tested the first time in an military post-accommodation school so they had extra funding. The school hadn't a clue what to do with my kid so they brought out the big guns but there was all kind of drama. It was the first time the school psychologist had tested a kid on his end of the scale in years. Mostly the psychologist did testing on special needs children.

A year later he got a grant from the Davidson Institute to take another test through the University of Washington. If I'd have paid for it out of pocket it would have run me close to $1,500 with the evaluation afterward. Testing is PRICEY. I'd love to be able to afford to send him to a school where they were monitoring/mentoring him on a more regular and professional basis - but it just isn't in the cards. Currently our school (like all the rest in the state and probably the nation) has a massive budget crisis and we're facing the idea of 35 kids as an average in the classroom. Not ideal.

As an aside, I won't let him be tested by anyone at his school for anything other than school purposes. He can take the school subject matter assessments, and the state testing, but I won't allow them to test him for their "gifted" programs. They always cheap out and try some half-baked test like the CoGAT which isn't an intelligence test at all and is generally administered under poor circumstances by a minimum wage aide. I appreciate what the school is trying to do - but with kids like these you can't throw a bunch of different tests at them all the time. I will not allow his IQ to be tested by anyone other than a licensed psychologist or other testing professional using one of the major IQ tests.

Richard, I appreciate the career guidance you've given your children. It's funny because my genius also has a medical condition which requires him to see a specialist every couple of months so he's been in and out of hospitals forever. I used to be like, "hey, wanna be a doctor??" and he'd always look at me like I was nuts. His current career goals include inventing really cool beverages for kids, and designing roller coasters. :D

Slantwire

04-20-2009, 07:29

This is interesting to me because I always thought that those vague questions with imperfect answers were really testing your arguing ability more than IQ.

Not much capacity to argue on a scan-tron bubble sheet. (Or, more recently, a computer screen that only allows you to wait indefinitely at an unchanging screen until you select one of the predefined buttons.)

burned_pretzel

04-20-2009, 13:56

Not much capacity to argue on a scan-tron bubble sheet. (Or, more recently, a computer screen that only allows you to wait indefinitely at an unchanging screen until you select one of the predefined buttons.)

What I meant was that a number of answers will work, so with a good argument you could have three people get three separate answers that make sense. But only one is counted as being right. That doesn't seem like the right way to do it, as a different thinking style will come up with a different, yet still technically correct, answer. The computer doesn't know that the other answers make sense, but you could explain to a human being why your answer works and he might agree.

Dozer523

04-20-2009, 16:10

Try this genius test.

1) Do they have a 4th of July in England?
2) How many birthday's does the average man have?
3) Some months have 31 days; how many have 28?
4) How many outs are there in an inning?
5) Is it legal for a man in California to marry his widow's sister?
6) What's the answer when you divide 30 by 1/2 and add 10?
7) If there are 3 apples and you take away 2, how many do you have?
8) If a doctor gives you three pills, telling you to take one every half hour, how many minutes will the pills last?
9) A farmer has 17 sheep and all but 9 die. How many are left?
10) How many animals of each sex did Moses take on the ark?
11) A clerk in the butcher shop is 5'10" tall. What does he weigh?
12) How many two cents stamps are there in a dozen?

Dozer523

04-20-2009, 16:14

Here is another one.
Directions: Find the words that fit. Example: 16 = O in a P ... You need to figure out what the "O" and "P" stand for. Answer: 16 Ounces in a Pound

1) 26 = L of the A
2) 7 = D of the W
3) 1001 = A N
4) 12 = S of the Z
5) 54 = C in a D (with J)
6) 8675309 = J
7) 88 = P K
8) 13 = S on the A F
9) 32 = D F at which W F
10) 18 = H on a G C
11) 90 = D in a R A
12) 200 = D for P G in M
13) 8 = S on a SS
14) 3 = B M (S H T R)
15) 4 = Q in a G
16) 24 = H in a D
17) 1 = W on a U
18) 5 = D in a Z C
19) 57 = H V
20) 11 = P on a F B T
21) 1000 = W that a P is W
22) 29 = D in F in a L Y
23) 64 = S on a C B
24) 40 = D and N of the G F
25) 76 = T in the B P
26) 50 = W to L Y L
27) 99 = B of B on the W
28) 60 = S in a M
29) 1 = H on a U
30) 9 = J on the S C
31) 7 = B for S B
32) 21 = D on a D
33) 7 = W of the A W
34) 15 = M on a D M C

Longstreet

04-20-2009, 17:34

1) Do they have a 4th of July in England?
2) How many birthday's does the average man have?
3) Some months have 31 days; how many have 28?
4) How many outs are there in an inning?
5) Is it legal for a man in California to marry his widow's sister?
6) What's the answer when you divide 30 by 1/2 and add 10?
7) If there are 3 apples and you take away 2, how many do you have?
8) If a doctor gives you three pills, telling you to take one every half hour, how many minutes will the pills last?
9) A farmer has 17 sheep and all but 9 die. How many are left?
10) How many animals of each sex did Moses take on the ark?
11) A clerk in the butcher shop is 5'10" tall. What does he weigh?
12) How many two cents stamps are there in a dozen?

Alright, I'll take a stab at this one.
1. England does have a 4th of July and so does Canada. Not sure about Australia though.
2. Average man has one birthday. Strangely once the average woman reaches 29, she never has another birthday or gets older.
3. All months have 28 days.
4. Ah crap, not sure on this one, but I will guess six?
5. Not sure if it is legal, but it would be spooky given he is dead.
6. Damn a math question - my favourite subject. Ummmm, 25?
7. You will have two apples!
8. Each pill will last 30 minutes.
9. The farmer will have nine sheep. Shouldn't he be a shepherd though?
10. Moses took one of each sex.
11. I would say he weighs meat. Is it halal?
12. I will guess six stamps.

OK, I answered them all and in full sentences too. Am I mensa bound?

MVS2

04-20-2009, 18:38

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/01/health/he-poverty1

Fear, stress among the poor hinder learning
These emotions are a constant for the poverty-stricken. New ideas are emerging to combat the long-term effects.

By Rosemary Cl and Os
September 01, 2008

RAISED IN poverty, Dr. Shauna Blake Collins fought fear during nearly 14 years of education. A dropout from a South-Central Los Angeles high school, she earned a GED diploma at 22, became a licensed vocational nurse, a registered nurse, and finally, at 41, a physician. Confidence came only during the last two years of medical school.

"Every step of the way, I was petrified," says the Winnetka mother of two toddlers, who recently graduated from UCLA's David Geffen School of Medicine. "The pressure I put on myself made me paralyzed."

Students who grow up amid economic insecurity often face many obstacles: overcrowded schools, lack of enrichment activities, violent neighborhoods. Fear and stress can be two more problems. Brain science is showing how these emotions have effects on the brain and how they can directly impede learning. Some scientists and educators are suggesting ways in which kids and college students can combat the long-lasting effects of poverty-related stress.

Taking over thoughts

In response to fear or stress, the brain quickly releases adrenaline and cortisol, activating the heart, blood vessels and brain for life-saving action -- fighting or running. The brain gives the threat priority over anything else -- including schoolwork -- and it creates powerful memories to help prevent future threats. "All families experience stress, but poor families experience a lot of it," says Martha Farah, psychology professor at the University of Pennsylvania.

For 20 years, David Diamond, a neuroscience professor at the University of South Florida, has studied the effects of stress-related hormones in rats. He found that high cortisol levels affect the hippocampus -- a key learning center in the brain -- in three ways. They suppress electrical activity, decrease efficiency and reduce new cell growth.

These effects, thought likely to occur in humans as well, might be one reason it's hard for impoverished students to concentrate and learn -- especially if there is extra stress, violence or abuse in the child's environment, Diamond says.

In a 2006 issue of Brain Research, Farah reported that growing up in poverty affects thinking processes associated with several brain systems. Sixty healthy middle-school students matched for age, gender and ethnicity but of different socioeconomic status took tests that challenged brain areas responsible for specific cognitive abilities. Researchers found that children from low-income homes had significantly lower scores in areas of language, long-term and short-term memory, and attention.

I thought this was a good read, personally I have noticed similar effects when strapped for cash during school.

Dozer523

04-20-2009, 18:46

Alright, I'll take a stab at this one.
1. England does have a 4th of July and so does Canada. Not sure about Australia though. GO
2. Average man has one birthday. Strangely once the average woman reaches 29, she never has another birthday or gets older. GO
3. All months have 28 days. GO
4. Ah crap, not sure on this one, but I will guess six? GO
5. Not sure if it is legal, but it would be spooky given he is dead. GO
6. Damn a math question - my favourite subject. Ummmm, 25? NOGO
7. You will have two apples! GO
8. Each pill will last 30 minutes. NO GO
9. The farmer will have nine sheep. Shouldn't he be a shepherd though?GO
10. Moses took one of each sex. NOGO
11. I would say he weighs meat. Is it halal? GO
12. I will guess six stamps. NOGO

OK, I answered them all and in full sentences too. Am I mensa bound? Nice try. Hint: Invert and multiply

Dozer523

04-20-2009, 18:48

Longstreet

04-20-2009, 19:32

Originally Posted by Longstreet
Alright, I'll take a stab at this one.
1. England does have a 4th of July and so does Canada. Not sure about Australia though. GO
2. Average man has one birthday. Strangely once the average woman reaches 29, she never has another birthday or gets older. GO
3. All months have 28 days. GO
4. Ah crap, not sure on this one, but I will guess six? GO
5. Not sure if it is legal, but it would be spooky given he is dead. GO
6. Damn a math question - my favourite subject. Ummmm, 25? NOGO
7. You will have two apples! GO
8. Each pill will last 30 minutes. NO GO
9. The farmer will have nine sheep. Shouldn't he be a shepherd though?GO
10. Moses took one of each sex. NOGO
11. I would say he weighs meat. Is it halal? GO
12. I will guess six stamps. NOGO

Alright, one last try. Let's see . . .
6. Should be 70. I can't believe I messed up and did not use the reciprocal of 1/2. Please don't tell my students I messed up on that one . . .
8. This one should be 120 minutes as I should take one pill after the first 30 minutes.
10. I better get my butt to church as it was Noah's Ark. So moses took 0 animals of each sex.
12. Silly me. There are twelve stamps!

Hmmm 75%. Ok, no Mensa for me, but definately smarter than the average bear.

The Reaper

04-20-2009, 20:01

Alright, one last try. Let's see . . .
8. This one should be 120 minutes as I should take one pill after the first 30 minutes.

Hmmm 75%. Ok, no Mensa for me, but definately smarter than the average bear.

Try again. You take one immediately, then 30 minutes later, you take one, then 30 minutes later, you take the last one.

How long was that?

Definitely no Mensa for you.

TR

Longstreet

04-20-2009, 20:43

Definitely no Mensa for you.

Bah! I am sure they will get along fine without me although they will be lacking my charm and wit . . .

Thanks Dozer for the original post. It was fun.

Richard

04-20-2009, 20:48

Definitely no Mensa for you.

My 'officially' scored IQ qualifies me for Mensa membership - my wife reminds me on a daily basis that I must have cheated. No Mensa for me, either. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Slantwire

04-21-2009, 07:08

Slantwire

04-21-2009, 07:27

Here is another one.
Directions: Find the words that fit. Example: 16 = O in a P ... You need to figure out what the "O" and "P" stand for. Answer: 16 Ounces in a Pound

1) 26 = Letters of the Alphabet
2) 7 = Days of the Week
3) 1001 = Arabian Nights
4) 12 = Signs of the Zodiac
5) 54 = Cards in a Deck (with Jokers)
6) 8675309 = Jenny
7) 88 = Piano Keys?
8) 13 = Stripes on the American Flag
9) 32 = Degrees Fahrenheit at which Water Freezes
10) 18 = Holes on a Golf Course
11) 90 = Degrees in a Right Angle
12) 200 = Dollars for Passing Go in Monopoly
13) 8 = Sides on a Stop Sign
14) 3 = Blind Mice (See How They Run)
15) 4 = Quarters in a Game
16) 24 = Hours in a Day
17) 1 = Wheel on a Unicycle
18) 5 = Digits in a Zip Code
19) 57 = Heinz Varieties?
20) 11 = Players on a FootBall Team
21) 1000 = Words that a Picture is Worth
22) 29 = Days in February in a Leap Year
23) 64 = Squares on a Chess Board
24) 40 = Days and Nights of the Great Flood
25) 76 = Trombones in the Big Parade
26) 50 = Ways to Lose Your Lover
27) 99 = Bottles of Beer on the Wall
28) 60 = Seconds in a Minute
29) 1 = Horn on a Unicorn
30) 9 = Judges on the Supreme Court
31) 7 = Brides for Seven Brothers
32) 21 = Dots on a Die
33) 7 = Wonders of the Ancient World
34) 15 = Men on a Dead Man's Chest

Dozer523

04-21-2009, 12:14

Nice Job Pinhead, on both.
You're welcome, Longstreet.

Richard

04-21-2009, 12:57

8) If a doctor gives you three pills, telling you to take one every half hour, how many minutes will the pills last?

Actually - the question is either unanswerable as worded or would be 'thrown out' because it has multiple possible correct meanings/answers. This happens every year with some of the SAT questions.

Now, if it had asked, "If a doctor gives you three pills, telling you to take one every half hour, how many minutes will have elapsed when the pills have all been taken as prescribed?" - the correct answer would have been 60 minutes.

However, asking "How many minutes will the pills last" connotes a different question and requires you to know their norm-referenced duration of effects, among other criteria, and not just when they've been taken.

See how difficult this can be...and question #8 came off the WWW and everyone assumed it was GTG. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

MVS2

04-21-2009, 13:25

Now, if it had asked, "If a doctor gives you three pills, telling you to take one every half hour, how many minutes will have elapsed when the pills have all been taken as prescribed?" - the correct answer would have been 60 minutes.

Moreover, the instruction of when to begin taking the pills would factor into how long they would last. If it was, 'wait 1/2 hour and begin taking the pills,' they would last 90 minutes.

burned_pretzel

04-21-2009, 14:16

My 'officially' scored IQ qualifies me for Mensa membership - my wife reminds me on a daily basis that I must have cheated. No Mensa for me, either. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Wow, nice job!

My IQ test came back negative.:mad:;)

Sigaba

04-21-2009, 14:59

Actually - the question is either unanswerable as worded or would be 'thrown out' because it has multiple possible correct meanings/answers. This happens every year with some of the SAT questions.
I recently learned that the examinations administered so that one may qualify as a Professional Engineer (P.E.) have similar flaws year after year. One can labor away at the test for hours on a question that has no correct answer and this question can impact significantly one's overall performance.

IMHO, I'd like the vetting process for the men and women who will be building bridges, buildings, and parking structures to be a tad bit more reliable.:(

The Reaper

04-21-2009, 15:11

Sigaba

04-22-2009, 12:00

The source of the article below is here (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-exit-exam22-2009apr22,0,918646.story).
The original article has a graphic that is located here (http://www.latimes.com/media/graphic/2009-04/46430658.gif).

The following links are related to the study mentioned in the article.

The press release is here (http://www.stanford.edu/group/irepp/cgi-bin/joomla/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=239).
The executive summary is here (http://www.stanford.edu/group/irepp/cgi-bin/joomla/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=241).
The full report is here (http://www.stanford.edu/group/irepp/cgi-bin/joomla/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=243).

High school exit exam hinders female and non-white students, study says
The mandatory test is keeping at least 22,500 California students a year from graduating who would otherwise fulfill all their requirements, researchers say. State education officials defend the exam.
By Mitchell Landsberg
April 22, 2009

California's high school exit exam is keeping disproportionate numbers of girls and non-whites from graduating, even when they are just as capable as white boys, according to a study released Tuesday. It also found that the exam, which became a graduation requirement in 2007, has "had no positive effect on student achievement."

The study by researchers at Stanford University and UC Davis concluded that girls and non-whites were probably failing the exit exam more often than expected because of what is known as "stereotype threat," a theory in social psychology that holds, essentially, that negative stereotypes can be self-fulfilling. In this case, researcher Sean Reardon said, girls and students of color may be tripped up by the expectation that they cannot do as well as white boys.

Reardon said there was no other apparent reason why girls and non-whites fail the exam more often than white boys, who are their equals in other, lower-stress academic assessments. Reardon, an associate professor of education at Stanford, urged the state Department of Education to consider either scrapping the exit exam -- one of the reforms for which state Supt. of Public Instruction Jack O'Connell has fought the hardest -- or looking at ways of intervening to help students perform optimally. Reardon said the exam is keeping as many as 22,500 students a year from graduating who would otherwise fulfill all their requirements.

"No one can be happy with these results," Reardon said. "The exit exam isn't working as it was intended."

O'Connell issued a statement containing measured praise of the report but defending the exam, saying it "plays an important role in our work to ensure that a high school diploma has meaning." Other officials in the Education Department reacted skeptically to the study, sharply rejecting its assertion that the test has no positive effect on learning.

"I'm not ready to agree with that at all," said Deb Sigman, deputy superintendent for assessment and accountability. The researchers, she said, "don't look at grades, they don't look at classroom observation or interviews with children."

But Russell Rumberger, a professor of education at UC Santa Barbara who directs the California Dropout Research Project, called the study "very sophisticated" and said policymakers need to take heed of its conclusions and perhaps consider an alternative test.

State Assembly Speaker Karen Bass (D-Los Angeles) issued a statement saying that the research "reinforces the concerns that many of us have had about the exit exam from its inception." She said the results "must make us all pause and take stock of whether the exam could be fixed or is fatally flawed."

The exit exam, which students can take multiple times beginning in their sophomore year, includes math and English tests, with the math aligned to eighth-grade standards and English to 10th-grade standards. It has been criticized both for being too easy and for unfairly denying a diploma to students who otherwise might graduate.

The study, funded by the private, nonprofit James Irvine Foundation, is based on analysis of data from four large California school districts, those in Fresno, Long Beach, San Diego and San Francisco. Reardon said the results were very similar for all four districts, suggesting that the conclusions had broad application for all California schools.

Not surprisingly, the researchers found that the exam was toughest on students in the bottom quarter of their class, based on state standardized test scores. That was also where the study found the strongest inequality of results.

"Graduation rates declined by 15 to 19 percentage points for low-achieving black, Hispanic and Asian students when the exit exam was implemented, and declined only one percentage point . . . for similar white students," the study said. Low-achieving girls had a 19 percentage-point drop in their graduation rate, compared with a decrease of 12 percentage points for boys.

Reardon said he initially was skeptical of the "stereotype threat" effect, but that it has been well-established by social psychologists and appears to apply to the test disparities.
It is interesting :rolleyes: how the bureaucrats at the California Department of Education circle the wagons to defend the merits of the test at the expense of using the findings to understand better the needs of their students.

The Reaper

04-22-2009, 12:07

It is interesting :rolleyes: how the bureaucrats at the California Department of Education circle the wagons to defend the merits of the test at the expense of using the findings to understand better the needs of their students.

Do we have the correct cause and effect relationship here, or could there be other reasons for poor test performance?

TR

Sigaba

04-22-2009, 13:48

Do we have the correct cause and effect relationship here, or could there be other reasons for poor test performance?

TR
My two cents are that the theory makes sense as an explanation but I'm not satisfied with the presentation of the argument.

IMHO, the report would be stronger if its discussion of 'stereotype threat' incorporated some sort of pre- and post- test questions. (I reached this conclusion for reasons different than Ms. Sigman. She has a vested interest in arguing that the responsibility for students not passing rests entirely on their shoulders. I am of the view that if a sufficiently motivated student fails to reach his or her goals in a civilian learning environment, the teachers probably dropped the ball.) Had the report made use of the data available in this document <<LINK (http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/cahsee08evalrpt.pdf)>>, especially pages 81-116, the pre-exam experiences of girls could be seen as activators of the 'stereotype threat.'

Beyond that, I do think that the report makes clear that, at the very least, the testing policy merits consideration for reform.

Dozer523

04-22-2009, 14:08

Do we have the correct cause and effect relationship here, or could there be other reasons for poor test performance?

TR Oh fer cryin' out loud! I'm not even livin' in California any more!:D. . . much less teachin' there. :p

greenberetTFS

04-22-2009, 14:13

SWCS used to have the Department of Education and Standards maintain and administer SFQC testing.

They kept all of the SFQC Phase II questions in a database, with the citations and references for the correct answers. They would occasionally have someone with expertise in the material take the tests for feedback. We regularly reviewed our questions to verify that they were relevant and the material was being taught.

For an exam, they would randomly select a specified number of questions from the database of approved test questions. If the wrong responses to a question broke the norm, it was highlighted to verify that the instructor was covering it in the classes. If it was missed by excessive numbers of students repeatedly, it would be removed from future tests as a "bad" question.

That seems to work well for us, back in the dark ages.

TR

TR,

Am I understanding this correctly that they have an IQ test requirement in the SFQC Phase II ? What is considered a passing grade ? I remember the battery of tests we took when we entered the Army, but I don't remember taking an IQ test in 1964 when I went thru my SF training. I realize that was sometime ago, but when did they start doing IQ testing? In fact, I remember taking a test that could qualify me for OCS that needed a 120 score and I had 119,but I didn't think it was an IQ test..............

GB TFS :munchin

The Reaper

04-22-2009, 14:25

TR,

Am I understanding this correctly that they have an IQ test requirement in the SFQC Phase II ? What is considered a passing grade ? I remember the battery of tests we took when we entered the Army, but I don't remember taking an IQ test in 1964 when I went thru my SF training. I realize that was sometime ago, but when did they start doing IQ testing? In fact, I remember taking a test that could qualify me for OCS that needed a 120 score and I had 119,but I didn't think it was an IQ test..............

GB TFS :munchin

There is no IQ test in the standard sense.

They use the GT test scores as an entry standard. It used to be 110 points, then they lowered it to 100 (waiverable) to get more troops in the pipeline.

TR

afchic

04-22-2009, 14:25

Dozer, do your wife and kids allow you to go out in public looking like that? I bet you scare the hell out of the school kids!!!

The Reaper

04-22-2009, 14:27

Dozer, do your wife and kids allow you to go out in public looking like that? I bet you scare the hell out of the school kids!!!

I don't think he would be allowed through his school's metal detectors.

TR

afchic

04-22-2009, 14:28

I don't think he would be allowed through his school's metal detectors.

TR

Well, at least none of them could be considered concealed weapons!!

Dozer523

04-22-2009, 14:43

Dozer, do your wife and kids allow you to go out in public looking like that? I bet you scare the hell out of the school kids!!! Huh? I haven't been home in weeks. Why? Come to think of it morale in the classroom HAS improved . . . :confused:

greenberetTFS

04-22-2009, 15:04

Huh? I haven't been home in weeks. Why? Come to think of it morale in the classroom HAS improved . . . :confused:

Dozer,

Your original avatar (of yourself) is a lot cooler than what you've got now,that one is just disgusting.........................:p:rolleyes:

GB TFS :munchin

Richard

04-24-2009, 09:13

Here's a very straight forward and simple test I always found to be quite helpful.
Richard's $.02 :munchin

In the middle of the table is a round food tray with five kinds of fruits on it. They are:

Apple
Banana
Strawberry
Peach
Orange

Which fruit will you choose? Please think VERY carefully and don't rush into it; your choice reveals a lot about you!

Test results: (SCROLL DOWN)

If you chose:

Apple: That means you are a person who likes to eat apples.
Banana: That means you are a person who likes to eat bananas.
Strawberry: That means you are a person who likes to eat strawberries.
Peach: That means you are a person who likes to eat peaches.
Orange : That means you are a person who likes to eat oranges.

greenberetTFS

04-24-2009, 11:34

Here's a very straight forward and simple test I always found to be quite helpful.
Richard's $.02 :munchin

Richard,

You have a secret admirer ....... :cool: My wife loves your posts! She looks forward to your posts every day and asks me what did he post today? I'm OK with it,but I hope your wife isn't a jealous woman is she ?........................;)

GB TFS :munchin

Dozer523

04-24-2009, 15:03

Dozer,

Your original avatar (of yourself) is a lot cooler than what you've got now,that one is just disgusting.........................:p:rolleyes:

GB TFS :munchin So your saying you don't like this new look? :D

Sigaba

04-24-2009, 15:13

So your saying you don't like this new look? :D
What ever else may be said of the proud owner of that 'body art', it cannot be said he is not good for an extra pair of napkin rings and steak knives.:eek:

Richard

04-24-2009, 15:25

So your saying you don't like this new look? :D

Thanks for the pic of somebody any parent would surely be proud to claim for their son. :rolleyes:

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Richard

04-27-2009, 06:44

I should have sat next to her for those tests. :p This is the first time I've heard of someone aceing all three of these tests.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Michigan Student Aces ACT, SAT, PSAT
Time, 25 Apr 2009

Willa Chen has a knack for tough tests.

The Detroit News reported Saturday that the 17-year-old senior at southeast Michigan's Canton High School got perfect scores on the ACT — and the SAT — and the PSAT.

ACT Inc. spokeswoman Mary Owens says it's "quite an accomplishment."

The College Board, made up of 5,000 schools, administers the SAT and PSAT but says it doesn't track statistics on whether anyone has scored perfectly on both of its tests.

Chen plans to attend Princeton University.

The student from the Detroit suburb of Canton Township said she doesn't think she studied a lot but she said she tries to keep learning all the time.

She participates in the Math Olympiad and also finds time to enjoy jazz, tap and ballet-dancing.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1893976,00.html

Richard

06-07-2009, 11:16

And the interpolation of life continues... ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Rising Above I.Q.
Nicholas D. Kristoff, NYT, 7 Jun 2009

In the mosaic of America, three groups that have been unusually successful are Asian-Americans, Jews and West Indian blacks — and in that there may be some lessons for the rest of us.

Asian-Americans are renowned — or notorious — for ruining grade curves in schools across the land, and as a result they constitute about 20 percent of students at Harvard College.

As for Jews, they have received about one-third of all Nobel Prizes in science received by Americans. One survey found that a quarter of Jewish adults in the United States have earned a graduate degree, compared with 6 percent of the population as a whole.

West Indian blacks, those like Colin Powell whose roots are in the Caribbean, are one-third more likely to graduate from college than African-Americans as a whole, and their median household income is almost one-third higher.

These three groups may help debunk the myth of success as a simple product of intrinsic intellect, for they represent three different races and histories. In the debate over nature and nurture, they suggest the importance of improved nurture — which, from a public policy perspective, means a focus on education. Their success may also offer some lessons for you, me, our children — and for the broader effort to chip away at poverty in this country.

Richard Nisbett cites each of these groups in his superb recent book, “Intelligence and How to Get It.” Dr. Nisbett, a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan, argues that what we think of as intelligence is quite malleable and owes little or nothing to genetics.

“I think the evidence is very good that there is no genetic contribution to the black-white difference on I.Q.,” he said, adding that there also seems to be no genetic difference in intelligence between whites and Asians. As for Jews, some not-very-rigorous studies have found modestly above-average I.Q. for Ashkenazi Jews, though not for Sephardic Jews. Dr. Nisbett is somewhat skeptical, noting that these results emerge from samples that may not be representative.

In any case, he says, the evidence is overwhelming that what is distinctive about these three groups is not innate advantage but rather a tendency to get the most out of the firepower they have.

One large study followed a group of Chinese-Americans who initially did slightly worse on the verbal portion of I.Q. tests than other Americans and the same on math portions. But beginning in grade school, the Chinese outperformed their peers, apparently because they worked harder.

The Chinese-Americans were only half as likely as other children to repeat a grade in school, and by high school they were doing much better than European-Americans with the same I.Q.

As adults, 55 percent of the Chinese-American sample entered high-status occupations, compared with one-third of whites. To succeed in a profession or as managers, whites needed an average I.Q. of about 100, while Chinese-Americans needed an I.Q. of just 93. In short, Chinese-Americans managed to achieve more than whites who on paper had the same intellect.

A common thread among these three groups may be an emphasis on diligence or education, perhaps linked in part to an immigrant drive. Jews and Chinese have a particularly strong tradition of respect for scholarship, with Jews said to have achieved complete adult male literacy — the better to read the Talmud — some 1,700 years before any other group.

The parallel force in China was Confucianism and its reverence for education. You can still sometimes see in rural China the remains of a monument to a villager who triumphed in the imperial exams. In contrast, if an American town has someone who earns a Ph.D., the impulse is not to build a monument but to pass a hat.

Among West Indians, the crucial factors for success seem twofold: the classic diligence and hard work associated with immigrants, and intact families. The upshot is higher family incomes and fathers more involved in child-rearing.

What’s the policy lesson from these three success stories?

It’s that the most decisive weapons in the war on poverty aren’t transfer payments but education, education, education. For at-risk households, that starts with social workers making visits to encourage such basic practices as talking to children. One study found that a child of professionals (disproportionately white) has heard about 30 million words spoken by age 3; a black child raised on welfare has heard only 10 million words, leaving that child at a disadvantage in school.

The next step is intensive early childhood programs, followed by improved elementary and high schools, and programs to defray college costs.

Perhaps the larger lesson is a very empowering one: success depends less on intellectual endowment than on perseverance and drive. As Professor Nisbett puts it, “Intelligence and academic achievement are very much under people’s control.”

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=262049