View Full Version : "We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation."
Well that's nice to know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIVd7YT0oWA
And said in Turkey no less.
Depends on what the definition of "We" is.
Regardless of your beliefs, I think we (USA) have always considered ourselves to be a Christian nation. For example - "In God We Trust"
But I guess I'm just one of those guys who clings to his guns and religion... :mad:
Since we're not a Christian Nation anymore I guess $50,000 for earthquake relief is plenty.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.15148f36e80f2222604c174cd120fa1 9.381&show_article=1
Warrior-Mentor
04-06-2009, 17:17
...and the apotheosis of George Washington painted in the rotunda of the United States Capitol?
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/gw/gwmain.html
...just one example... :confused:
I just cant seem to wake up from this bizarre dream state I am stuck in.
I just cant seem to wake up from this bizarre dream state I am stuck in.
I call them nightmares.
His own words are more disagreeable than the title of this thread suggests. He not only degrades Americans who worship Christ, he questions the commitment of Jews and Muslims to their beliefs as well.
The polling data suggest that the American people disagree with the president's assessment. <<LINK (http://www.gallup.com/poll/25585/Religion-Most-Important-Blacks-Women-Older-Americans.aspx)>>
His comments about a global society without cultural conflict certainly serves the interests of the Turkish government and many sectors of its population, at least in regards to the ongoing denial of the Armenian genocide. Let's see if the president lives up to the position he outlined when he was a candidate. I'm not holding my breath. <<LINK (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123880012474888429.html)>>
I begin to wonder if study of dhimmitude is appropriate.
I also wonder what becomes of a nation as the cultural bonds between and among its people are diminished.
I also wonder what becomes of a nation as the cultural bonds between and among its people are diminished.
These bonds are foremost in my mind when I brood about this country's future.
IMHO, they remain strong. Are these sinews of American civilization durable enough to outlast an age of economic crisis, intense partisanship, a global war, and a president not yet ready for the demands of his job? I believe so but I do not know.
I believe so but I do not know.
Cultural bonds within a nation appear to be robust. For example, my naive perceptions suggest Germany has had its problems, but the underlying culture seems intact. Perhaps there is less emphasis on martial elements.
But are we still a nation? Or are we, as suggested by some staffers in the previous administration, more of an empire? Once again, my perception is that empires have a relatively fragile culture, which tends to be imposed by the central government.
Much has changed in the last 50 or so years that I can remember. And the culture I see today is profoundly different than what I experienced back when. What effect such changes will have, I do not know.
Have there been historical examples of nations that endured deep and extensive cultural change? What happened to them?
Cultural bonds within a nation appear to be robust. For example, my naive perceptions suggest Germany has had its problems, but the underlying culture seems intact. Perhaps there is less emphasis on martial elements.
"Naive" is a word that never comes to mind when I think of you and your posts, my friend.
Although the topic remains an issue of debate, I think that what happened in Germany was that the pressures of the interwar years atomized social and cultural bonds. The Nazis rose to power by providing a 'glue' to hold everything together.
They had enough variations of their noxious mix of cool aid so that one could pick and choose the appealing elements and conveniently ignore/deny/overlook/rationalize ones that might have caused discomfort. Hitler promised everything to everyone and mass communications were not sophisticated enough at that time for enough people to compare notes and realize that things didn't quite add up.
And if you didn't want the cool aid? A quick trip to the ally out back and so much for you. (Eventually, almost everyone was going to be dead anyway--the master race was meant to emerge from the cleansing fire of global war.)
But are we still a nation? Or are we, as suggested by some staffers in the previous administration, more of an empire? Once again, my perception is that empires have a relatively fragile culture, which tends to be imposed by the central government.
My two cents are that we remain a nation. A nation divided, discontented, distressed, dismayed, and disheartened but not diasporic.
Dysfunctional? To paraphrase Tolstoy, every nation's culture is dysfunctional in its own way. (And if I could find my copy of Anna Karenina, I could do something about the insomnia.;))
("Empire" has such negative connotations in the historiography of American foreign relations that the word makes me bristle when I see it.:mad:)
Much has changed in the last 50 or so years that I can remember. And the culture I see today is profoundly different than what I experienced back when. What effect such changes will have, I do not know.
To me, this point captures the essence of this moment in our history. Were we to list of all the cultural changes we've experienced and to rank those changes as 'good' or 'bad', how similar would our lists be? Would there be more pluses than minuses? Would more people think things have gotten better overall but for divergent reasons?
For me, the pluses both outnumber and outweigh the minuses. Even now.
Have there been historical examples of nations that endured deep and extensive cultural change? What happened to them?
I think America has survived several instances of profound cultural change that few other nations could have endured. I'm "all in" on our ability to do it again.:cool:
I think America has survived several instances of profound cultural change that few other nations could have endured. I'm "all in" on our ability to do it again.
I agree with Sigaba on this topic. I admit, however, that I am an eternal optimist. But having lived throughout the world for many years and then spending over a decade in the oft frustrating but ultimately rewarding sub-world of educating our teenagers, I remain optimistic and - in agreement with the likes of those such as Victor Hanson - think that, perhaps, a better way to assess America's chances at maintaining our preeminence (and not 'empire,' as some are quick to suggest; I do not think of America as an empire in the more classical sense for many reasons which would be another topic of discussion) is simply to ask the same questions that are the historical barometers of our nation's success or failure:
Does any nation have a constitution comparable to ours?
Does merit - or religion, tribe or class - mostly gauge success or failure in America?
What nation is as free, stable and transparent as the U.S.?
Try becoming a fully accepted citizen of China or Japan or Germany if you were not born Chinese or Japanese or German. Try running for national office in India from the lower caste. Try writing a critical op-ed in Russia or hiring a brilliant female to run a mosque, university or hospital in most of the Middle East. Ask where MRI scans, Wal-Mart, iPods, the Internet, F-22s, or any of a myriad number of inventions came from. How many nations have ever placed a human on another world or have shown the ability to rather routinely launch and recover a space shuttle. Several have tried (the ESA, Russia, Japan), but only America has succeeded - and it is now considered by us to be an antiquated program soon to be replaced with the newer generation of hyperspeed, space-skipping craft.
In the last 60 years, we have been warned in succession that the societies of racially pure Germany, the Soviet workers' paradise, Japan Inc. and now 24/7 China all were about to displace the United States. None have. All have had relative moments of amazing success - but in the end, none proved as resilient, flexible and adaptable as America's Gunny Highway "improvise - adapt - overcome" approach to life in this world.
And then there is our military. Many make the superficially false comparisons of how the American military - much as the Romans - must adhere to empire-like acceptance or foreigners and contract workers to fill its ranks, yet all large militaries contract out services. The Ottoman fleet was run by renegade Italian admirals. The British 19th-century military ruled the world with a tiny force supplemented by indigenous hires. The French Foreign Legion is not so tres French. In fact, purely mass conscription civic militaries - such as ours that defeated Hitler and Tojo - are rare in civilized history. More importantly, the current education level of the U.S. military now exceeds that of the general population. Its private contractors are subject to a level of official and media scrutiny unknown in any other courts, and the Pentagon is subject to a degree of oversight unimaginable among any of the world's hegemonies - empirical or not.
And that brings us to what many consider to be the United States' greatest strength: radical self-critique. Read the threads of this forum. We Americans are worriers, always believing we're on the verge of extinction. And so, to "renew," "reinvent" or "save" America, we whip ourselves into a frenzy of self-preserving action to fight angst generated "wars" on poverty, drugs and cancer; space "races" and missile "gaps;" literacy "crusades;" and "campaigns" against litter, waste, smoking, and now - the unknown effects of global climate change.
In other words, we anxious Americans have always been paranoid about the idea that we must change and improve in order to survive. And so we usually do - and manage to do so just in time.
I used to have a yellow, triangular sign on the wall just outside my classroom door which said - "Warning: America taught here." I still believe in the merit of that idea today. :lifter
Richard's $.02 :munchin
ZonieDiver
04-07-2009, 06:14
Richard,
Excellent post! This is so very well-said that it should be an "op-ed" piece in every newspaper - especially your "Pravda on the Hudson"! I agree with you completely. Perhaps it is working with young people that fills us with optimism, but I refuse to believe that this period is the "end" of America as we know it.
I always dig through that pile of manure, looking for the pony that must be there.:)
Ret10Echo
04-07-2009, 07:07
As the discussion here and elsewhere goes on, I become more and more amazed at the form of government that our founders put together.
I think in many cases our continued ability to shake off what appears to be a cataclysmic social change is the amazing flexibility and applicability of our founding documents. Regardless of how far to the left or right we swing they are applicable.
As to the denial of the U.S. being a Christian nation I believe that to be more of an effect of the MSM Kool-aide that is distributed.
How do you determine the definition of what makes a Christian nation. Is it NOT being muslim? Or is it a morality and rule of law that is based upon the teachings of Christianity?
Being an optimist does not mean you are not prepared...:cool:
Wayneo79
04-07-2009, 07:09
Thank you Richard!
By your post here you are a bastion of hope and edification. Your students are very fortunate to have the likes of you as one of their teachers/mentors and I'm pleased they do.
Keep up the fire!
v/r
WayneO
Richard,
Excellent post! This is so very well-said that it should be an "op-ed" piece in every newspaper .:)
I agree – it should be published – probably will be. Interestingly – the same constitutional paragraph (amendment) that guarantees its publication provide the stimulus for this thread.
But the question originally asked here is ultimately backward from that expressed by the 1st Amendment. Our visionary forefathers ultimately knew that the only way to guarantee all people the right to enjoy the spirituality, familiarity, traditional values of the religion of their fathers and mothers and in the manner and degree expected, was to protect us from each other. It allows me to worship, as a Presbyterian, at my church on Sunday, and sometimes Wednesday too without imposing my Presbyterianism on you. But in turn it protects me from my neighbor imposing his religion, for example Islam, on me. And it protects both of us from the Mayor telling us all that we have to be Scientologists.
They looked at the past and saw the horrors, saw the injustices, saw the mistakes, saw the reasons that they left the Old World in the first place – they looked at the future and saw a way – and here it is:
Amendment 1 - 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
greenberetTFS
04-08-2009, 02:35
Thank you Richard!
By your post here you are a bastion of hope and edification. Your students are very fortunate to have the likes of you as one of their teachers/mentors and I'm pleased they do.
Keep up the fire!
v/r
WayneO
WayneO,
Your right about our bastion of hope and edification. ;) I've heard it often said that sigaba and nmap are very intelligent posters, and they are. :cool: However we have one of our own that is as equally capable. Richard IMHO can go one on one with the best of them and his posts are just as informative and his thumbnail cartoons always make me LMAO...................:D
GB TFS :munchin
Amendment 1 - 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
A law only becomes unconstitutional if it goes before the court and is declared so by the court. If it never goes before the court, then it is constitutional and enforceable (and will be enforced). One could argue that is an inherent weakness in the system.
We are dangerously close to effectively nullifying the First and Second Amendments through various legislative acts (taxation and Patriot come to mind). I would argue that, should they by some wild chance come before the court, the court will be so stacked ideologically that it will choose to declare them constitutional. (Courts stacked ideologically, another inherent weakness.)
My hope in this nation was shattered on April 30, 1975. On October 7, 1993 it was buried. God created us all with unique characteristics. Mine seems to be severe pragmatism. I endure the foul odor of the rotting corpse of America. Others, it seems, are capable of discerning a more appealing aroma.
A law only becomes unconstitutional if it goes before the court and is declared so by the court. If it never goes before the court, then it is constitutional and enforceable (and will be enforced). One could argue that is an inherent weakness in the system.
........ some wild chance come before the court, the court will be so stacked ideologically that it will choose to declare them constitutional. (Courts stacked ideologically, another inherent weakness.)
I endure the foul odor of the rotting corpse of America. Others, it seems, are capable of discerning a more appealing aroma.
As a nation, we have been very good, but we have been very lucky too. We were lucky for George Washington, who's wisdom goes well beyond what most folks know or appreciate. He refused the coronation of King, but reluctantly accepted the office of President. His understanding of the human nature guided him to step down after only two terms. He knew that he could have stayed in office until he died - had he done that, so would the next President and the next, etc. Talk about stacking the court... When FDR ran for the third and fourth time - he broke the tradition - and he proceeded to stack the court.
These days, the pendulum swings pretty regularly – kicking out the party who has overstayed – of course, with the right kind of conspiracy theory thinking – anything is possible.
But I am an optimist – always have been – the aroma’s in my world that I lke best are full of fresh cut grass, my wife’s cooking. And the America that I live in is not rotting – it is just changing (and yes, I don’t like some of the changes) – but I’m not ready to move into a bunker or join a cult.
Be safe friend and keep the demons at your 12 o'clock.
WayneO,
Your right about our bastion of hope and edification. ;) I've heard it often said that sigaba and nmap are very intelligent posters, and they are. :cool: However we have one of our own that is as equally capable. Richard IMHO can go one on one with the best of them and his posts are just as informative and his thumbnail cartoons always make me LMAO...................:D
GB TFS :munchin
Thank you for the kind words, Sir. I always look forward to Richard's posts too.
WayneO,
Your right about our bastion of hope and edification. ;) I've heard it often said that sigaba and nmap are very intelligent posters, and they are. :cool: However we have one of our own that is as equally capable. Richard IMHO can go one on one with the best of them and his posts are just as informative and his thumbnail cartoons always make me LMAO...................:D
GB TFS :munchin
GB TFS--
Thank you for the compliment.
Nmap, Richard, as well as a great many other members of this BB, set a pace that requires my best efforts to match.
ZonieDiver
04-09-2009, 08:15
But I am an optimist – always have been – the aroma’s in my world that I lke best are full of fresh cut grass, my wife’s cooking. And the America that I live in is not rotting – it is just changing (and yes, I don’t like some of the changes) – but I’m not ready to move into a bunker or join a cult.
Be safe friend and keep the demons at your 12 o'clock.
I agree 100%. I think a hallmark of an SF trooper is an optimistic attitude! How else could one even think of undertaking SF missions without being optimistic?
However, it is optimism laced with frequent reality checks and large amounts of contingency planning. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Trust, but verify. Don't hunker in the bunker until the PT-76's are in the wire! ;)
But I am an optimist – always have been – the aroma’s in my world that I lke best are full of fresh cut grass, my wife’s cooking. And the America that I live in is not rotting – it is just changing (and yes, I don’t like some of the changes) – but I’m not ready to move into a bunker or join a cult.
Be safe friend and keep the demons at your 12 o'clock.
I agree 100%. I think a hallmark of an SF trooper is an optimistic attitude! How else could one even think of undertaking SF missions without being optimistic?
However, it is optimism laced with frequent reality checks and large amounts of contingency planning. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Trust, but verify. Don't hunker in the bunker until the PT-76's are in the wire! ;)
Genau! ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
These days, the pendulum swings pretty regularly – kicking out the party who has overstayed –
Agreed. However, my concern is that if the pendulum swings too far one way, it may irrepairably break the clock.
But I am an optimist – always have been –
And after great reflection over the years, I believe that's why I never wore that "funny little green hat", as much as I would have liked to have earned it. You gotta be positive and a people person to be SF. I'm just too big o' pessimist and grouch. :cool:
Be safe friend and keep the demons at your 12 o'clock.
YHWH willing, I will. Thanks!
If thats true then will somebody explain to me why everything on my area is closed!!!!!!!!!
Could Good Friday be the reason...??????????
If thats true then will somebody explain to me why everything on my area is closed!!!!!!!!!
Could Good Friday be the reason...??????????
Perhaps America's as regionally sub-cultural as nearly everyplace else in the world. FWIW - everything's open around here - most will be open, according to signs in the stores, on Sunday as on most Sunday's, too - and it is a good Friday. ;)
Is this a GREAT country or what!
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Richard you are correct.
Mitch this post of yours, for me at least, puts the hammer to the nail.
As a nation, we have been very good, but we have been very lucky too. We were lucky for George Washington, who's wisdom goes well beyond what most folks know or appreciate. He refused the coronation of King, but reluctantly accepted the office of President. His understanding of the human nature guided him to step down after only two terms. He knew that he could have stayed in office until he died - had he done that, so would the next President and the next, etc. Talk about stacking the court... When FDR ran for the third and fourth time - he broke the tradition - and he proceeded to stack the court.
These days, the pendulum swings pretty regularly – kicking out the party who has overstayed – of course, with the right kind of conspiracy theory thinking – anything is possible.
But I am an optimist – always have been – the aroma’s in my world that I lke best are full of fresh cut grass, my wife’s cooking. And the America that I live in is not rotting – it is just changing (and yes, I don’t like some of the changes) – but I’m not ready to move into a bunker or join a cult.
Be safe friend and keep the demons at your 12 o'clock.